Some NHL goalie history

I don't know how to respond to that. Nice work Rich.

is it useful to compare players from more than a few decades ago? are the structures and levels of play and coaching in minor leagues and junior leagues of the 50s, 60s, or even the 80s comparable to today? or have goaltending styles and coaching changed so much as to make comparisons from before 1980 irrelevant?

That' is some damn fine research Rich. Thank you for that!

As far as Bernier goes, let's not forget that Bernier just turned 19 about 6 weeks ago. He is extremely young. Barring an unforeseen injury, I don't see how one more year dominating in Juniors and backing stopping Team Canada's WJC U20 team to another medal would be a bad thing in the long term for his career.

This season is not worth potentially ruining Bernier's career.

Continuing on the path Dave started, you also can't really take much into account from those histories because it's a different NHL now.

Only a few guys on that list have even played in the "new NHL".

It's an interesting list, but I don't think it bears too much relevance on the Bernier situation.

If the kid's ready, he'll stay. If not......

Very good research Rich! Make sure you share it with the Dean, Ron, Bill, and the rest of the guys from the Kings. (Of course, they may have done a list of 50 goalies).

I think the bottom line from your research is that, if Bernier is going to be as good as we are starting to think he may be (i.e., better than Fleury), then it could work for him to be with the Kings all season (see, e.g., Roy). So, keep letting him play a share of the games and, as long as he or the team doesn't implode, keep him around.

I think the comparisons are valid because, although the game has changed over the years, within the respective eras the pattern is fairly consistent. Almost all of the players listed above became regulars in their early 20's. Check out Roberto Luongo and Marc-Andre Fleury. Both of them went through a similar process of development. Look for Bernier to be a regular for the Kings in 2009-10.

There is no recipe for greatness. Every situation is different. If Monteal didn't need Rogie @ 18 he played in the minors until he couldn't be denied his spot on the Habs.
Although it's baseball HOF player Bob Feller played @ 17.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Feller

It may not be how we do things today but a person might be ready because he has the want-to and the maturity to make the league at 19 or he may never reach his potential at all ala Jaime Storr. He had juniors and AHL and back-up duty and still never blossomed into The player he should have been.
This has to be played by ear, there are no "rules". I think Jon Bernier is more Barasso than Storr.

I'm curious to know how many examples there are of high drafted goalies that were "rushed" and ruined (besides Storr). Just interested to know since most everyone is worried about that.

What would be more interesting to find out would be what type of team did these goalies play on when they started out? Did they come to a team that was well established and a playoff ready team or did they step into the fire and get shelled their first couple of years because of poor defensive play by their team? Hockey is a team sport or so they say.

Nice work Rich! Thanks for digging all that up. Very cool. Most definitely relevant to "today's nhl" Conclusion, seems to me they have no intention of sending this guy back to juniors...

Nice work Rich! Thanks for digging all that up. Very cool. Most definitely relevant to "today's nhl" ...whatever that means. We can all predict this and that, but a couple of important facts are: 1) Hearing the kid say, "I learned a lot last year and I'm ready for this. I don't want to go back to juniors. My focus is to play here." 2) Seeing how he backed up those words so far. 3) Seeing that management decided to play the whole game in Vegas and bring him to Europe. Conclusion, seems to me they have no intention of sending this guy back to juniors...

Thank you for taking the time to research this, it is a call I am glad I do not have to make. Thanks again.

Mark Andre Fleury was rushed at 18, got lit up (4-14-2 3.64 gaa) but still maintained his confidence - Got lit up again at age 20(13-27-6 3.25 gaa) but STILL maintained his confidence.

Last season he went 40-16-9 with a 2.83 gaa.

He'll probably lead them to a SC Final.

Let Bernier get the "taste", then work out the flaws, refine his game and have him ready for 09-10, where our 1st round picks from now and next season will be ready to step in and help Anze Kopitar lead the Kings to the SC Finals.

It seems the average age is around 21-23 for most of these goaltenders. They've had time to not only develop but mature mentally. And for most goaltenders they didn't have much success in their starting years. I could see if the Kings were a top notch team and the only missing piece is the goaltending they might have to take a chance but they still have a ways to go so I say send the kid back. Don't possibly ruin the kid for a playoff spot and possibly a first round exit. The Kings need to get better learn how to play together then add Bernier after this season or maybe even another season in the AHL. No need to rush this kid.

I do not buy into the rushed ruined thing. Every other sport in the world gets there players straight out of college or the minors and then plays them in the pros.
Some need a few years to find their way some jump right in and contribute. I don't think Jamie Storr was ruined by playing on the Kings for 5 games a year. The Kid was a decent goalie and never was more then that. Everyone hyped him up and he simply didn't live up to that. To say the only reason was because he was rushed seems like a cop out. Just looking back at his stats I don't really get that anyhow. He played 4 years in the OHL then played 2 IHL years with a 5 game peek on the Kings roster.

I always get frustrated when people make Hockey players out to be these mentally fragile players that as a whole have the ability to be ruined based on timing.

Sure coming in before you are ready could be a set back mentally, but if you are good enough you will learn from that, work harder and come around to succeed.

Give Bernier a shot and tell him that life isn't over if he isn't ready for the NHL this year. They will give him time if he needs it.

Couldn't agree more with Bubba's post, success in life in general is based on what one produces, it isn't contingent on age, if JB is getting it done now, let him keep getting it done! If he falters there is a support system in place there to help him through it, otherwise he could be the "next Anze" for the Kings..

Hey guys here's another analogy. Did Tiger Woods stay with his Junior golf coach after he said "hello world" and became a pro....... I think he went with a "Pro" teacher and never went back to his Junior coach. I think Ranford and the Kings team will help JB far more then his Jr. goaltending coach and team.

Here are a few examples of goalies whom I believe were rushed and either never met their potential or got hurt in their development:

- Blaine Lacher (BOS), from Calder finalist to flop in three years.

- Andrew Raycroft (BOS), see above. He's working on his game, but hasn't been the same since a fine rookie season with the Bruins.

- Mika Noronen (VAN?), He started in the Buffalo organization, and while he got caught in a glut of good goalies developing in the system (Miller, Biron).

All I'm saying is that young kids like Barasso and Roy who make the jump straight to the pros are more the exception than the norm.

Watching Jamie Storr's career slide was hard to watch as you could see his ability and confidance being sucked out of him was tragic.

And yeah, you can sit back on your armchair and say that these are big boys and pros and they should be able to take the kind of pressure that's presented to them.

But what happened to the swagger and aggressive fight that Dan Cloutier used to have? He looks like a shadow of the goaltender he used to be.

Do what's right for Jonathan Bernier, but don't rush him if he's not ready. That's all!

I don't think anyone is saying "rush him even if he's not ready." Bubba's post is on point and I'd bet that's what the Kings are thinking too.

The first 10 games of the season are gonna be quite exciting.

Anymouse, Boston has always been notorious on goaltenders, as has Detroit, Toronto and Montreal. They put them under so much pressure to hold everything together. Now I'm going to go back a large number of years, but I can tell you that Montreal went through some great goaltenders like Bill Durnan, Gerry McNeil, Plante as did Toronto, after Broda it was like a revolving door at ML Gardens, Detroit was and is very hard on their goaltenders if they don't live up to expectations. In the past most of the great goaltenders gave it up because of the pressure or had nervous breakdowns.

It interesting I keep hearing about the "new NHL".

I am not sure many of the these young players could have played in the "Old NHL". I agree it is a differnt game and the level of "physical play" is different to say the least. With Scott Stevens gone we left with the likes of Chrissy Pronger and Andy Sutton. Cheap Shot Artists if not why was Chrissy suspended for illegal hits?

And Allison has truly recovered from the the knee on knee hit from Old Andy.

Sorry I digressed.

It is a different game and today athletes are better conditioned but are they better Hockey players is the better question.

I can't stand when people compare Bernier to Storr, only one thing ruined Storr and that was himself! His work ethic and mental preperation was never good...and it did him in. Bernier doesn't have these issues and there is no blueprint for creating a great goalie...play it by ear and see what the kid can do. It could actually be more damaging to send him back to the juniors rather than let him play in the NHL if his mind is already set for the game which it certainly appears to be.

Great work Rich, thank you. So many great goalies made it into the league in their late teens-early 20's, fascinating! Bernier is in this category, he fits. Give him his nine games, then let him go house shopping in LA. He's going to be around a very long time. And we're about to start winning hockey games. Isn't that what this is all about?

Good job on the research Rich.

To anon and anyone else: None of those examples you use of rushed goalies achieve at 19 what JB has already. He took his junior team to championships, kicked butt on Team Canada and been the best guy in camp.

And I've seen the comment a couple times that it's not like we're one goalie/player away from a Stanley Cup so why rush him. If this were a year that we were potentially a SC contender would you want to pin it on a 19 yr old goalie? No. So exactly let him play this year and like Anze, Camm, Brown see what it's like to face adversity. If he's a bust let's find out now so DL can deal w/ it. Not in a couple years when we're hopefully in contention again.

I just saw this article on goalies and I was very excited to send it to my son.

After one year of playing Jr's and playing on several teams gaining a stellar reputation in goaltending, last year one of the teams he reached the ranks of no2 in the nation with his stats. His GAA reached 1.75.

We got a call in the beginning of the year that a goaltending coach in Canada, that we have known and been friends with for several years wanted him to play under him in the QMJHL. I had asked the guy if my son should at least try out other places that were highly interested in him but he said "No! I want him with me, they will have him sign immediately after tryouts when they see him play and I want him" I said "So this is for sure, its a for sure thing?" He said "Yes, for sure, he is with me, I don't want him to try out anywhere cause they will take him"

My sons ultimate dreams were coming true; to play in Canada. My son didnt send out college transcripts because he would be attending the local community college where he would be playing. He passed up trying out for other teams who begged him to come to their tryouts, he passed up showcases, he passed up playing at a college in the states that came to see him play several games, most of which were shutouts or 11-1 win fall games because he was going to play in Canada and we were going to discuss colleges near the team and living arrangements when my son would arrive in Canada at his goaltending camp that he attends every year, where this man is an instructor.

We got to the goaltending camp in July, after all teams have signed their goalies and this instructor acted like he was mad at us, wouldn't even speak to us when we said hello, he and his wife who showed up one day gave us dirty looks.

We found out that this guy had done this before to other goalies who come to this camp. What he must gain out of doing this to someone at the brink of their career is beyond me.

He destroyed my sons season, broke his spirit, nearly destroyed his hopes, dreams and future in goaltending after ten years of dedication to the position and sport at only 18.

This season, the only thing my son could do to stay conditioned was play on a professional roller hockey team.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this comparison on the great goaltenders of the nhl and how they came up the hard way.

I have sent this article to him to give him inspiration, to know that all is not lost and he still has a chance to make his dreams come true.