with a journalism degree i will say that this article was painful to read. And everyone wonders why newspapers are downsizing….

glad to se purcell and boyle are the real deal.

So awesome the Mr “journalism degree” didn’t proofread his post

Elipses are three dots not four or more as many use. Nice spelling too. Journalism degree huh? From what country?

I agree with socalking.
The team has good depth at the goaltending position, thus DL has the luxury to make a move.
By far, Ersberg was the best goalie on the team last season. He should compete with Birnier for the starting job. Also have Zatkoff, Quick, and Rowat waiting in the wings. Babs just gives up TOO MANY rebounds. He also hasn’t shown the ability to take over a game and win it on his own. However, Ersberg did show that ability at the end of the season.

This team needs some veterans to help out the youngsters. I wouldn’t mind DL trading Babs for a D-man with experience. It wiuld also help the team reach the cap floor.
See, No DL bashing.

anthony – I think you’re on to something: Babs in net. Streisand would really sell merchandise and stock the arena with blue hairs and divas.

And, her trade value would be in the ball park with Labarbara.

Is Brady Murray a perennial AHLer. What about Piskula? Couldn’t one of these guys have fetched Clune instead of Tukonen?

Wavesinair,

“The Ontario Reign is going to consist mainly of players from the CIF South Bay Roller Hockey League in San Diego.”

I will abide to that ONLY if they are coached by the legendary Joe Noris of Skate San Diego!!!!

I think Anthony is into S&M, because the fact he keeps coming back with a smile, after all the whippings and beatings people bestow upon him is incredible. I think your great Anthony, keep the posts coming. Just kidding on the S&M of course.

I concur, if we’re going with the youth movement, might as well stay consistent and have Ersberg and Bernier as the two net minders. Might as well have the whole core together as they take their lumps and bruises, so they can grow together.

cristobal, my friend, get over Tukonen. He just didn’t fit in or mess with the Kings. He’s gone now, lets move forward.

anthony – great post, congrats

While I agree with you in theroy (let the kids gain experience), I do have concerns about a 20 year old facing 35 shots/game. While I am sure Murray will harp on the forwards to play smart positional defense, I believe that it will takanthony – great post

While I agree with you in theory (let the kids gain experience), I do have concerns about a 20 year old facing 35 shots/game. While I am sure Murray will harp on the forwards to play smart positional defense, I believe that it will take a couple of months for them to really get it. We may want to sacrifice Babs confidence and then move him at the deadline to bring up Berner for a dozen games or so. He will have an additional 45 games under his belt and we should be out of the playoff race by then. This will minimize the pressure to win. The new defense will also have had 50 games to work on communication. What do you think?
e a couple of months for them to really get it. We may want to sacrifice Babs confidence and then move him at the deadline to bring up berner for a dozeon games or so. He will have an additional 45 games under his belt and we should be out of the playoff race by then. This will minimize the pressure to win. The new defense will also have had 50 games to work on communication. What do you think?

While I agree with most that Ersberg played pretty well at the end of last season, and that Bernier was great last September into early October, the thought of letting the goalie with the most experience go is a bit disconcerting. True, much of Jason’s pro experience is at the AHL level, but it is still a whole lot more than Ersberg and/or Bernier. If Ersberg or Bernier play their way onto the roster, that’s great. But I don’t see how you can just dismiss Labarbera out of hand before camp even starts.

Pat, you got it, he’s hired. I’ll even drive out to Ontario to watch them play.

I think this article truly states it like it is Kings fans. Lombardi’s initial 3 year plan is now a 5-6 yr plan…if we’re lucky???? I understand we need to rebuild but that doesn’t mean we can’t try to win now, especially when we’re 27 MILLION DOLLARS UNDER THE CAP!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.thefourthperiod.com/columnists/bernstein.html

Trade LaBarbera at deadline? LOL
Burke could not trade Bryzgalov last year
Bryz is actually good and Babs is not
Kings goaltending is deep in prospects
prospects=suspects until they prove otherwise

nykingsfan – i really don’t think anyone wants all that brought up again, but since you ask. Lombardi made comments to the press about not trading young players. tukonen is a young player. there is a precedent of young players being traded and finding a place to fulfill the promise they were drafted high for: a la – brett hull, martin st. louis, js giguere, daniel cleary, daniel briere, bertuzzi, etc….

the kings organization has a poor history of fitting young players into a winning system. they just fired a coach because he was unable to work with the young player (remember him leaving J Bernier in for 7 goals against Boston last year?), and they have just hired a new coach who they claim works well with young talent. i’ve never called tukonen the next selanne, but sometimes its worth hanging on to a player who has skill you just cannot teach. if Lombardi wanted clune badly, i’m sure he could have been had for the likes of Piskula or B Murray or P. Kanko. I’ve never seen a Monarchs game, so I have no idea what the team concept is, but I doubt its a european puck control style of play from which tukonen came. That is the direction I would like to see the Kings go, and why I had at times DREAMED of LA hiring LARIONOV to come in and coach this team. If Larionov and Makarov were able to bring puck possession and competitive hockey to San Jose in the 90′s, they could certainly accomplish it here, and i believe tukonen probably has the skills to be able to play that brand of hockey. I also have said this many times, but if you’re battling for high draft picks, what does it matter if you play a young guy like tukonen and he doesn’t produce? he’s keeping you high in the draft order and answering questions at the level at which it matters: if he can’t play in the NHL after 60-70 games, then give up on him. I don’t know where the Kings gets off telling someone they aren’t good enough, you know? Finally, what is the point in trading someone in the middle of July at their absolute lowest trade value? He could have been packaged with the likes of Stuart or Modry last march to try and lure more high picks. Colorado and Buffalo both traded 1st round picks away in march (colorado did it for Foote).

So now I sit back and get trashed by the other commentors for talking and debating tukonen again.

just remember people, nykingsfan MADE me do it.

cristobal, I’ll be the first. This is where you have a problem. DL never said he wouldnt trade young players, he said he wouldnt trade away any of our young talent. Huge difference, Tuk was way low on the depth chart being passed by many players. He had more than enough time to get used to the style of play. He was not in the category of “Young Talent” or even a Core Player. And why would LA go out and hire coaches for one player that can’t acclimate his game to our style? I don’t see many other players having difficulties. They made the right move for LA. That’s all that matters at the end of the day.

Now let’s put this to rest

quisp – i meant last year. what could stuart and tukonen packaged have gotten from detroit? or colorado? Modry and tukonen packaged to philly? i don’t know, but its interesting to speculate.

You can’t blame DL for not trading Blake… he tried, and back then Mr. Fickle only wanted to go to Colorado… until Colorado didn’t want him in FA that is.

I’m not sure which part you distrust? Do you think DL was lying when he said that he asked Blake to waive his NTC and Blake agreed, but only to go to Colorado, who got Foote first and didn’t want Blake after that?

What would the truth be then? He never asked Blake to waive the NTC? He asked and Blake said sure, trade me wherever? Blake asked to be traded to SJ but DL didn’t want to? DL asked and Blake said hell no?

While there are always things going on behind the scenes we can’t know, something like that, especially considering that Blake had every opportunity to refute DL’s assertion in the media but didn’t even mention it, I just don’t see why DL would even bother mentioning it at all during the trade deadline when all this went down. Regardless, it’s the only insight we have whatsoever. Usually a player will address allegations against him in some way, and all I ever remember hearing from Blake at the time was first that he would waive his NTC, and then DL said he got permission to try and swing a trade with Colorado.

Man… we sure know how to drift off topic.

Actually you brought him up AGAIN!

“cristobal said:

Is Brady Murray a perennial AHLer. What about Piskula? Couldn’t one of these guys have fetched Clune instead of Tukonen?”

I’ll keep this a lot shorter and its July so who really gives a sh**. The fact that we’re talking hockey the beginning of August is amazing.

So your think You think just because we sucked last year that should be a good enough reason for playing Tukonen all year? You earn your playing time in the NHL. Lazy and unproductive players don’t get the chance to play in this league.
Why does a player like Tukonen deserve to play 60-70 games? Shouldn’t we be saying the same thing about Brady Murray? How come we didn’t bring up Piskula to play 60-70 games? Trevor Lewis was a high draft pick. He also should have been given 60-70 games last year.

Do you see my point? We can go thru the entire Monarchs roster and find players playing better than Tukonen who deserve to play 60-70 games with the Kings.
You earn your playing time in this league. Just because you were drafted in the 1st round, doesn’t guarantee you a spot.

nykingsfan – all the kings have been ‘earning’ the past 2 years is near bottom finishes. i look to the past and i see guys come up (think connor james, noah clarke) and they put effort and some skill into their opportunities, yet they were always sent back down while guys like chartrand, zeiler, and guiliano were retained, despite their obvious disparity in “upside”. I hate to appear to harp on these particular players, I respect that they are good players, but not at the NHL level. I never understand these types of moves. Tukonen was rated where he was because he has access to a certain set of skills, whether he uses them all is up to him. He may not have shown anything yet, but its important to remember these are kids we’re talking about, and sometimes they find a way to grow up and realize what an opportunity they have.
Go look at the case of what his linemates from the WJC (both drafted after Tukonen in the first round, same year) Petteri Nokelainen and Lauri Korpikoski.

Finally, when i go and look at Tukonen’s numbers in Manchester, i don’t see how they’re that bad. More like a Pahllson than a Selanne, but that’s not bad.

Cristobal,

The only thing Pahlsson Tukonen have in common is Scandinavian ancestry. One is a hard working two way shutdown defensive forward who’s role helps his team win. The other has a poor work ethic and doesn’t have what take to make it in the AHL much less the NHL. I’m SURE the Ducks would’ve been happy to trade Pahlsson straight up for Tukonen if DL just would’ve made the offer at the trade deadline. Have you actually ever watched a hockey game? Your insights and and comparisons seem to suggest otherwise.

Rich,

I read in the other newspaper today a little bit about the service for Matt McHale. It sounds as if the memorial was unique and special in celebrating the memories of Mr. McHale. My condolences on the passing of whom I presume to be a very special co-worker and friend at the Daily News…

In any case, DL did Tukonen a favor. Now he has a chance to start over somewhere else, prove DL wrong, etc.. And of course we will all get to see who was right.

It is 69 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes and 54 seconds until Saturday, October 11, 2008 at 7:00:00 PM (Los Angeles time)

Cristobal,
No i’m not comparing Giuliano to Nystrom, just the styles of play. Guys who are willing to work hard every shift, every game. Guys like that aren’t going to average a point a game, but they will do the little things to help your team win. They are a little piece to the big puzzle.

So Tukonen’s not a scorer…exactly what is he? A puck possession player? That’s funny…who is he getting the puck to, when he has control. Nobody around him is putting pucks in the net. He doesn’t have many assists.
The phrase that is constantly used to describe his play by scouts is poor work ethic. That’s a major flaw in a pro athlete.
Can Tukonen turn his career into someone like Brett Hull? Sure…and it’s not too late for me to get my tour card on the PGA tour. I’m still breathing…That’s what I have in common with tour players and Tukonen has in common with Brett Hull.

Wouldn’t you think a player, who by your own admission..and his stats, isn’t a goal scorer, would work harder than others to succeed? I would think so…but not in Tukonen’s case. He made himself expendable by his poor production and his poor work ethic. A point every 2 games in the AHL is good? For who? Not a former 1st round pick who doesn’t work hard.
You can make any comparison in the world you want, but until you can convince someone that a players work ethic isn’t important, your argument will not work.

BTW..the only other team that drafts worse than the Kings is the Rangers. If Korpikoski is anything like every other Ranger draft pick, he’ll suck too.

Well… I wanted to stay out of the rehash of the Tukonen argument… buuuuuut….

One thing. While I agree with you cristobal about Crawford not working well with young dudes, Tukonen spent most of his time being coached by Morris, who has been frequently hailed and applauded for his work with young, developing players.

Also, Zeiler and Guiliano do have roles to play effectively in the NHL… just not both at the same time on the same time. Every team can, and does use a guy like Zeiler or Guiliano on their 4th lines. Our problem is we are flooded with players like that, Brady Murray and Ellis and such. I also always liked chartrand… I thought of him as Belanger light.

Not that I want to get dragged back into this, but cristobal, how much have you seen Tukonen actually play? Do watch a lot of Monarchs games? I doubt any team in the AHL goes primarily with a simplistic strategy like dump-and-chase. You talk a lot about the style of his game and (paraphrasing) how he wasn’t given a chance to prove himself in Manchester because of this or that, but what are you basing this on? Stats, web articles, what?

As for Tuk not being a scoring winger, he was projected by all scouting reports to be a power forward, which means he’s expected to put up numbers. For a guy ranked as high as 3rd overall in pre-draft rankings, he sure fell short of expectations. Hell, ISS even projected him as a potential 1st line power/sniper forward. These projections were not baseless- he put up 11 points in 6 WJC games, tied for 1st most overall, and 3 more than Malkin did in the same tournament.

How’s Dany Roussin doing these days? Do we really need players that have to have better players around them to be good?

The simple fact is Tukonen showed little if any improvement over three years and got passed over in the depth chart by guys who were seizing their own opportunities. That is why he was expendable. I hope he comes out of his shell and plays great for Dallas, but most likely, he’s gone at the end of his contract.

i would like another weird topic about a minor league player move resulting in 40+ responses about how the franchise is going down the tubes. that’s fun.

I think Duckhunter did more to prove my point with his last few sentences, than i’ve done in the past 2 weeks. My friend, THE KINGS DO NEED TO ADJUST THEIR PLAYING STYLE, ITS A NEW NHL. Do you not recognize the kings are a dump-and-chase team and that that’s all Zeiler and Guliano and Chartrand can do? If you didn’t notice, the redwings won the cup with a highly ‘swede’ team. They do it with puck control. Go look at what the Penguins have to say about facing them; they couldn’t get the puck.

1 WJC, J, is not what you draft players based on. That is not why he, or his linemates from that team were drafted in the top 20 or so picks.

Cristobal- I didn’t say he was drafted based on 1 WJC performance- the point of that whole paragraph (which you completely missed apparently) was that guys who analyze prospects for a living, unlike you or me, touted his offensive potential and projected him as a scoring winger, something you said Tuks wasn’t. Also, don’t kid yourself, Tuks draft position was heavily influenced by that WJC performance.

Also, about this dump-and-chase thing- the Kings last year were not a dump and chase team, and i don’t expect them to be this year. For one thing, dump-and-chase is not employed as a first/sole means of zone entry by any NHL/AHL team. There is too much speed and skill at these levels for it to be effective on a regular basis- it’s more suited to rec and high school leagues (the first and last place i ever played it). That’s not to say they won’t ever use it (it’s part of the game), but the top lines definitely are focused on entry in the zone with possession. As for energy/pest guys like zeiler, giuliano, etc… dumping the puck in deep allows them some extra shots at the other teams D, so, seeing as their main roles are to agitate/punish the other team, it’s a tool of the trade.

Cristobal, your points are well taken and make sense, but the Red Wings didn’t win it all because they have all Swedes, they win because they have a system that they employ throughout the entire organization. They have the pleasure of developing the youngsters into a well oiled machine. The most impressive thing about the Red Wings is that their forwards play defense. When two of your top offensive guys are up for defensive forwards of the year, you have to take your hat off to them. That’s what helps the Red Wings with puck control. Yes it’s the skill of some players, but it’s also the fantastic defense they play. Is that European hockey?, or just good all around hockey players that put fourth an effort to improve them selfs and the team.

There is no doubt we are a dump and chase team. that’s usually what happens, when you lack skill players. Thats whats exciting about the direction we’re going in. You can see the skill level going up. Long way to go with our young kids, but at least we are improving our odds. And when more and more talent evolves, we can then slowly change our system. But it’s a slow change, not a change for an individual, but a team and organization.

What is the “New NHL” anyway? Smaller, faster more skilled players? Give the NHL two more years and you’ll see the defense catch up to the offense again. I promise you, in a couple years there will be new schemes, traps and technique’s to stop the offense. Thats how all American sports teams work. Defense wins championships. IMO thats why Detroit is so good, they play team defense.

Many years ago, virtually all teams used dump-and-chase because it was the best way to get around the trap defense. With the opening up of the game, it’s provided more opportunity for teams to be able to carry the puck up the ice and into the opposition zone.

Better teams, such as Detroit, give kids extra time to develop simply due to the fact that they don’t feel the need to rush them to the NHL in order to try to have an impact on their team. Tukonen would have been given more time in Detroit, but on the other hand he could have been buried so far down that no other NHL team ever would give him a second chance. Just my humble opinion here.

Leaving Tukonen aside (hopefully for good), I don’t think +/- is a meaningless stat. I do often wish, though, that we could see all the numbers going into it, as in: (GF) – (GA) = (total +/-). Sometimes I just want to know who’s on the ice for the most goals (or goals against).

Very interesting talk about Tukonen & all, but more importantly when do they start training at the Toyota Sports Center? Should be next month maybe? Then we’ll have plenty to talk about.

I can give you guys (duckhunter, quisp, J, NYkingsfan) all credit for being correct in many of the things you say; kopitar is a great player, and he and frolov are especially good at entering the zone under control. Kopitar is in only the beginning of his 3rd season and, yes, hopefully the rest of the team will be built around him and dump and chase will become an occassional tool. But I HAVE told you that I believe Tukonen’s 1 point every other game is good enough to warrant keeping him and going forward with giving him a chance to find a place on the team with other decent players.

J – I have never seen him play in Manchester. Have you? I fail to see how 6 point in 35 games the year prior to being drafted shows him to be a scoring winger. There is a good description of him at the stars prospects page, maybe you’ve seen it as it was probably on the kings prospects page at one time. I do agree that sometimes a player is moved up in rankings because he impressed scouts with one performance or a good prospects game, but think Tukonen was drafted high because he showed skill and the ability to play with the men when he was just 14-15 years old. He has the talent to score goals when the opportunity comes, but is not described as a player that goes from the blue line to the net and scores goals for a living.

NYKINGSFAN – I’ve stated twice now that I believe 1 point every other game is right where this guy should be; and, i believe plus/minus is a telling statistic. Minus – 9 in 4 playoff games for moulsen and purcell tells me they leave the rest of the team wide open for counterattack. I think you are right that taken over a short series of games like a playoff series, these numbers can appear skewed. Modry was not the Kings problem and I don’t feel he should be mocked or jeered. Even though I don’t believe in Z and G, i don’t want to disrespect them. I think the Kings fans that do this to players on their team should shut it. Also, I’ve brought up his linemates from that year because they have done nothing monumental, but are being brought along and worked into the teams they play for.

Hey guys, I like debating this stuff. I don’t know why people come on and complain, its not like we’re taking up a terminable amount of space. Anyway, talk to you all later, and if you want me to shut up, just don’t reply. Otherwise….on to the next point…..

Cristobal-

I’ve only seen him play a couple of times for Manchester- they were in a different conference than the team where i was living before (back east) so only came to town occasionally. As i said before, i liked him but i’ve got no problem with this move, for the kings or him.

I agree his pre-draft numbers could leave you scracthing your head as to how he could be touted as a scoring winger, but then again, euro leagues are lower scoring. In case you’re interested, i dug up some old scouting reports online from that draft (http://www.redlinereport.com/redlinereport_jun2004DG.html ; http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/7000/international_scouting_services_top15_for_june2004/).
Power forwards historically have taken longer to develop/reach their potential, but i can see why the kings had felt they no longer needed him in their pipeline.

also check out this HF post-draft review (http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/7086/kings2004_draft_review/), the part about how he was played on the fourth line and didn’t get to show his O skills even when he was back in Finland. So that leads to this ?- if he’s only really showed significant offensive flair in one WJC tourney, and isn’t all that spectacular defensively, what exactly would we be waiting for him to develop into?

It’s fun debating this with you; I certainly don’t always agree with you, but i can tell you’ve got substance to back up your opinions, unlike many other posters who just come here to spout off like jacka$$es on their far-fetched assumptions. And i agree, if other’s don’t like the discussion, don’t read the comments. No one’s forcing you to.

cristobal
I know you’ve stated multiple times that you feel 40 pts over an 80 game AHL schedule is right where a former 1st round pick should be….based on your calculations..how many points would he average over a full NHL season? Now factor in that he plays no defense, and doesn’t work all that hard whether its during the games or practice. I don’t think it would look all that appealing.

I’m not dissing Modry..in fact I like the guy and what he brought to the team in terms of leadership…his mentoring of JJ etc..It was an odd site to see that he was the only one for a long while that wasn’t a minus.

But I have to disagree with you guys. +/- is a meaningless stat. There are some goals that are caused by the breakdown of a unit of 5…SOMETIMES
There are also times when its because the goalie completely blows the play. Everyone may have been in position but they all get blessed with a -. Sometimes it’s one guy who blows his defensive assignment causing a goal. The other 4 still get blessed with a -.
You can be skating off the ice at the end of a shift and a goal goes in. Maybe a 75 foot shot that beats your goalie.
Teams that finish near the bottom of the standings generally have poor +/- figures.
Take a look at Preissing. He had an incredible +/- number in Ottawa. Anyone here see that type of play from him last year? Did he lose it all in one year, or is it because when you play on a team that doesn’t play well in its own end and doesn’t have a goalie to make the big save to bail you out, they’re ALL getting blessed?

Hey thanks for posting this, found it to be a great read after finding it on Yahoo searching for similar topics and i shall pass the link on to a few friends.

Wonderful to read!

Good post, thanks

Excellent job.