So far Lombardi has said all the right things about signing the young core of the team to long term deals. But, except for Dustin Brown, he hasn’t signed any of them up.

Less talk about signing, please, and more signing.

I just suscribed to the Sporting News Today online magazine but I cannot find the article. Is it in the Aug. 6th edition? I went page by page & also used the authors name in the search. Can someone help? Thank you.

I admire Lombardi’s commitment to keeping his young players. I really do.
I also believe that he shouldn’t be making the same mistake that he’s doing with O’Sullivan. Waiting too long to discuss contract extension.
George Mcphee and Brian Burke feared the same. So they ended up signing Ovechkin and Mike Green (Wash.) and Perry and Getzlaf before other teams had a chance to make them offers.
And what if Sully only signs a 1 or 2 year contract with LA, then DL has to sign 3 players to big money.
He might actually not have enough room under the cap to keep them all.
Don’t forget, he still has to sign Frolov, Boyle, Purcell, Moulson, and entry level free agents.

I still believe that this GM is too arrogant and cocky. He doesn’t like others not agreeing with him, which explains the difficulty he’s having signing Sully and Stoll. He’s completely fixated to his own agenda and that’s not open for discussion or compromise. His way or the highway.

I’m sure he’ll do whatever it takes to keep his core of young players. That is of course he sticks around long enough as GM.
I’ll be keeping my fingers crossed that things go well..

I agree with Model 62. Let’s get POS locked up.

This is great news…Kevin Lowe, you listening?

This is meaningless to the other GM’s in the league and intended solely to help Lombardi sell his lack of movement. Lombardi needs to just keep his trap shut and do his job. The only warnings he should be issuing are to the ownership if he decides to go after more free-agent signings. Other GM’s in the league know the rules and this pathetic rhetoric is no more than a smoke-screen similar to his ‘now we’re rebuilding even though i promised progress within 3 years of taking over.’

If Lombardi wants to make trades and move draft picks around, he has to show respect to the other GM’s around the league. If he doesn’t want them coming after guys he wants to keep, don’t let them get to RFA status or worse. Like Model 62 said, shut up and sign them, you have plenty of cap space. Besides, the other GM’s may not be the ones that come offering money, it could be Russia. They must be eyeing Kopitar, I’m sure.

Wavesinair’s Warning

DL’s fighting for his job. He sure is a good salesman, but I’m not buying. I like his fire, but he’s already admitting this year is lost. Yet another lost year for the Kings and we haven’t even played a game yet! The DL PLAN may work in the long run (42 years, 43 years, 44 years?) but he probably won’t be around to enjoy it a-la san jose.

Jump ahead to ’09… AEG: “Thanks for trying dean, but sorry, we’re still losing and you’ve been here for 3 years and we’re worse.” DL: “NO!! We’ll be better, I promise. Our young guys are just about to hit their stride.” AEG: “Yeah, we know, but someone’s head has to roll. Sorry!”

Sketchy: It was confusing, but I finally found the article. It’s actually in the august 2nd edition. How do you get to aug. 2nd? It’s not easy! You have to do a search for lombardi and make sure you search in “ALL” …it’s very buggy and weird, but I liked the article.

Give me the double barrel gun DL.
Let me do the shooting for you.

continued…click on CONTENTS link and then click on HOCKEY and it should bring you to the lombardi article.

I love wavesinair.
He’s my kind of Kings fan.

I’m sure Dean isn’t the least bit interested in the hysterical rantings of you 12-year-olds, who can’t see any further than your lunch money and stained undies. Shut up and let him do his job, at his pace, as he sees fit.

Don’t be surprised when everyone is signed and all is well come training camp.

Ok Anthony, we get it. Seriously, we understand. DL sucks at everything, particularly his current job as GM of the Kings. You have made that point more than clear.

Anything new you might care to add to the discussion?

Alright DL, it’s time to walk the walk!

Anthony, who has offered O’Sullivan more money than the Kings? You make this assertion, so let’s here the teams, my friend! If you’re so much in the know, please enlighten the rest of us!

Cristobal, you’re obviously a novice hockey fan, like in the past six weeks or something. There’s a rookie salary cap in place and teams can only sign players to a certain amount for the first three years of their contracts. This is why Calder and Preissing make more money. Duh!

Cristobal, your point about players making more than Kopitar doesnt make sense. Kopitar is on an entry level contract. There is a cap on those. Last season Brian Pothier made more than Ovechkin. Its clear you dont know what you’re talking about.

Forgive me if this has been asked and answered, but, what happens if a team doesn’t make the cap floor by the seasons start? I’m sure DL will take care of that, I’m just curious. Is that simply not an option? A poverty tax perhaps (can’t call it a luxury tax)?

Anthony and Cristobal you may want to read the complete article.
Is it worth it for some team to go after Sully? He has already stated that he will match the offer and can bury the team because of the limited cap space the teams that would have interest in Sully have left.
Sully’s a real nice player, but how valuable is he to another team if it means that the Kings can break up their core?
Also under the cap system, when the Kings do tie up their core players long term and are competing for the cup, you need room under the cap to sign a potential high end free agent or pick one up at the deadline to make the push. If you fill up your cap by overpaying for Sully, Kopitar, JJ, etc there will be no room left to get those key additions you always need.

DL understands that the way to operate under a cap system is to get your guys signed to as cheap a contract that is possible. The Kings know they will have to pay for their core, they don’t want to have to overpay for their core. Sometimes that can be accomplished by giving them the security of a long term contract as opposed to getting larger annual salary..as they did with Dustin Brown.

The only argument left is that it’s all a bluff and DL will never be able to get the ok to move towards the cap ceiling while working under AEG.
That’s an assumption by everyone, not a fact. While we all thing AEG is cheap, nobody has ever factually stated that’s the way it will be.

Think about it for a minute…If this was the case, why does DL stick around? The guy has been a successful GM in the league for long enough. He can get another job in this league without a problem. Whats his motivation for staying?

Anthony the difference is you cherry pick quotes to fit your argument. You have spouted the same nonsense for literally months about how screwed the Kings are regarding O’Sullivan.

And yet…there is no word about talks being stalled, or a mess, or any kind of news whatsoever. Nobody on ESPN, The Hockey News, TSN, Yahoo, Fox Sports, NHL.com is even reporting on it at all.

To everyone except you it appears to be a nonissue.

If Brave Sir Deano were to follow through on his threats, this would entail signing a mid-level RFA for a higher salary than anyone on the current roster, while surrendering 3-5 lottery-level first-round draft choices. This has to be one of the emptiest threats ever.

Consider an alternate scenario: on 7/1/2009, two other teams sign Kopitar and Johnson to Vanek-type contracts. Would it shock you if AEG decided to match one offer and let the other guy go in exchange for the 5 first-round choices? From AEGs standpoint, they would still have one marquee player to promote (while staying near the salary floor), and Brave Sir Deano could boast about how the extra 5 choices will ensure a dynasty for decades to come!!

Is this likely to occur? Perhaps not, but it is FAR more likely than Deano getting authorization from AEG to sign a midlevel RFA and give up several first-round draft choices. It would be fun to see it happen, just to enjoy Deanos spin.

*********

Deano Lombardos TANKALOT

Opens October 9 in San Jose. Closes April 11 in Los Angeles.

Good seats available.

note to self:

M U S T

S T O P

R E A D I N G

C O M M E N T S

Cristobal,
that’s a ridiculous argument. Have you looked around the league at some of the GM’s currently employed? Have you ever taken a look at the Islanders organization? They have clueless Garth Snow at the helm. The team has absolutely no direction.
I have read enough comments from other teams hockey people, especially at the draft, that DL is doing it the right way, and if things work out as planned, the Kings will be good for a long time.
His resume speaks for itself. This is not his first job in the league. EH was successful in San Jose. The may not have won a cup, but they always are competitive.
He has a situation here that few other GM’s in the league have. He’s building up an organization from the bottom. He’s drafting his kind of players. I have the patience to see the end result..and if they win, we’ll all be smiling. Some with less egg on their face.

Your point about Kopitar is just a guess. What if by waiting they can get him locked up longer term for less than $6 mil a year? WE’re not privy to negotiations, nor should we pretend that we are.

I’ll take a different path this time and just disregard Anthony & Cristobal comments for obvious reasons…the one reasonable thing that we need to be concerned with is that DL is hinting at not signing JMFJ or Kopi before next July 1st, perhaps neither one of them want that before this season ends so they can maxmize their contract, which I can see the advantage for them, but it would be nice if locked them up before July 1st and actually focused on UFA next summer to support our core. Just my two cents.

It’s like a box of rocks around here.

there is no reason for the kings to spend to the top of the cap. we just need to get to the floor and thats is for this season. look at pittsburgh, they did not have the cap room to keep all their players after the run to the stanly cup final. Dl wants to sign kopi and jj to long term contracts that will pay them 5 mill a year in 5-6 years. players like boyle and purcell and moulson will never get that kind of money and it will take 4-6 years before doughty, hickey, teubert, bernier to get to those salaries. Im sure the players want to take 5 mill a year and know that they each year has the possibility to win the cup. thats why we doensnt pay 7-8 million for briere/gomez to play for us now but in 3-5 years we can pay malkin that money to take the last step or we dont need to because our team is so goood that we just need to get a bridge player ala holmstrom to get us there.

Hey guys, what do you think DL is going to say??? “We aren’t going to match any offer sheets so come sign our young guys we can’t get under contract by July 1.” *Yawn*

cristobal I’ve come to the conclusion, you are clueless.

Pay Kopitar whatever he deserves…and unless you’re privy to negotiations, do you have a clue as to what his agent will ask for? You don’t. Stop trying to give your OPINIONS as stated facts. How the hell do you know he’s lowballing Kopitar?
You’re talking out of both sides of your ass.

Now you’re more of an expert than Wikipedia? Are you the all knowing and powerful OZ that you know more than everyone else, including Lombardi?
Get off your soap box.
I haven’t seen any Trevor Lewis games to state he should be up this year..which is probably the exact same amount that you’ve seen from him. Maybe he’ll be ready next year. I’ll leave that to the experts. You’re not one of them.

nykingsfan – for your information wikipedia, while a great tool, is no expert. Most people know it can be edited by you or me.

For fans like Anthony and cristobal:

What do you want and what do you expect?

I agree- it BLOWS that the Kings are going to lose this season. Do you want Lombardi to trade away prospects for veteran help? If so, why? Are you guys not excited about the prospect of having all of these young kids play for the Kings in 2-3 seasons? Kopitar, Brown, O’Sullivan, Frolov, Purcell, Lewis, Boyle, Moller, Simmonds, Cliche, JMFJ, Doughty, Hickey, Teubert, Voinov, Martinez, Bernier, Zatkoff- How does this list not excite you? Because they aren’t penciled in for this season? Why do you guys care that the Kings aren’t going to overspend and be close to the salary cap? Is it so important to have a winning team THIS particular season?

Fill me in. Pretty please. You don’t even need to put sugar on top.

“…and unless you’re privy to negotiations, do you have a clue as to what his agent will ask for? You don’t.”

“I’ll leave that to the experts.”

Right there is some truth.

You know, if guys like anthony and cristobal come in and say, “I’m frustrated these guys haven’t been signed”, I’m pretty sure they are universally agreed with. Instead they come in with elaborate deep reads into the situation with explanations that only make sense if they are inside the heads of the people involved.

If there was some actual indication that not only something happened, but also as to why that thing happened, that’s even somewhat excusible. Actually though, they are actively speculating in authoritative tones about things that haven’t happened.

It’s ridiculous.

And then some of this stuff is just plain wrong on what they are saying. I could point out stuff line by line, but the over-riding theme is the expectations and goals DL has set out are not the same as what these guys have in their heads and they can’t come to terms with that.

The goal is not to have success this season, it is to build and develop. We don’t have established scorers (especially if you fail to count guys like Frolov and O’Sullivan (who is so important to lock up but you don’t count him)), we don’t have established D, etc. Well, it depends on what your expectations are.

I think there are a ton of fans out there who are going to be rather happy seeing a bunch of young unestablished players learning on the job. If you’ve been a fan of this team for any length of time, you have to have the perspective that losing with no plan and no hope for a better future is worse than doing so with tangible futures right there in front of you on the ice.

Losing while seeing kids play for spots also beats the hell out of treading water with a bunch of B and C level vets who are just good enough to make sure you don’t get good draft position, but not good enough to take you anywhere serious.

You guys act like Rome was built in a day. A GM comes into a situation where the organization is going nowhere fast and implements a fundamentaly sound plan to build a sustained winner and he sticks to it, and you complain hes not focused on winning today enough, hes not flexible enough, you complain about moves that are clearly made as stop gaps and roster fill-ins for not being team changers…it’s ridiculous.

Look if you’re frustrated this team isn’t going to be at the top of the standings next year, just say that and move on. If you are frustrated the RFA signnings are taking longer than you hoped, just say that. All this other crap…

Irish Pat – first of all, i love the name. But come on….do you not understand? I, for one, do not believe the team needed to completely rebuild. I don’t believe a career King like Taylor should have been fired. He should have fired Andy Murray after the season before the lockout, but Leiwike just blew it by firing Taylor.

I am eager to see young guys get into this league and perform well; but i’m not going to sit here and swallow the idea that a guy like Cliche or Moller will ever play regularly in the NHL, let alone be an impact player.

I’ve been led down the road of “hope” too many times with this franchise. Lombardi is swimming in the deep end. The Salary cap is only in its 3rd year and he believes he knows how to build a perennial winner? He’s also gone and traded, or lost, many of the assets he inherited for little return: Corvo, Garon, Sopel, Avery, Norstrom, Demitra, Visnovsky, Cammalleri, Miller, Belanger, They may not all be all-stars, but for they’re all NHL players. Purcell, Lewis, Moller, Simmonds, Cliche, Hickey, Voinov, Martinez, Bernier, Zatkoff……these guys may never be NHL regulars. For those of you that are going to argue Bernier is already a sure thing – rememer Marc Denis, Al Montoya, Jamie Storr……

Add to this his horrible free-agent transactions and I find no reason to believe in what he’s selling….

I continually ask people to show me the stellar work he supposedly did with San Jose, but it’s not there. Some good 1st round draft picks and 2 later round finds in 6-7 years…doesn’t make him the ‘strategist’ or ‘genius’ people say he is. I’m much more impressed with Brown, Boyle, Kopitar, Visnovski, Cammalleri, Corvo, Lilja, Huet, Parros, Jokinen, and a few others.

“…I believe Kopitar is perhaps the 3rd best player in the league behind Ovechkin and Crosby. I think Malkin is awesome but the Kopitar may actually be more well rounded….nykingsfan – i’ve tried to hold some reasonable conversation and arguement with you, but YOU don’t know what you’re talking about.”

Talk about myopia! Yeah cristobal, nykf is the one who doesn’t know what he’s talking about…

I like Kopitar too, but that statement is ridiculous. He scores, so he must not be “well rounded”. Man, I wish I could find the old central scouting report on the guy from ’04 that talked about what made him a top pick was his defensive game on top of his offense.

It’s a good thing you’re making that statement to a group of Kings fans, because homers are the only ones who are going to think that statement has even a remote chance of not being completely ludicrous.

Too bad you aren’t the GM in PIT! I love Kopitar to death, but I’d make that trade without a second thought.

Okay, well that settles that.

{If you’ve been a fan of this team for any length of time, you have to have the perspective that losing with no plan and no hope for a better future is worse than doing so with tangible futures right there in front of you on the ice.}—–CAPS ARE JUST FOR MY REPLY——WOULD YOU NOT AGREE THAT THE STATE OF THE TEAM WHEN LOMBARDI TOOK WAS PROMISING? HE WAS HANDED KOPITAR, BROWN, CAMMALLERI, VISNOVSKY, PLUS BOYLE AND QUICK IN THE SYSTEM.

{Losing while seeing kids play for spots also beats the hell out of treading water with a bunch of B and C level vets who are just good enough to make sure you don’t get good draft position, but not good enough to take you anywhere serious.} —— THE B AND C LEVEL VETS OF THE PAST 2 YEARS HAVE PROVIDED THE 2ND AND 4TH OVERALL DRAFT PICKS – MEANWHILE, HANDZUS, NAGY, CALDER, CLOUTIER, AND MCCAULEY COST A COMBINED 16 MILLION LAST YEAR.

{You guys act like Rome was built in a day. A GM comes into a situation where the organization is going nowhere fast and implements a fundamentaly sound plan to build a sustained winner and he sticks to it, and you complain hes not focused on winning today enough, hes not flexible enough, you complain about moves that are clearly made as stop gaps and roster fill-ins for not being team changers…it’s ridiculous.}——-THIS GM CAME IN 2 YEARS AGO AND SPENT A LOT OF MONEY AND MADE THE TEAM WORSE. IT WASNT UNTIL HE FIRED CRAWFORD THAT HE STARTED SELLING THE NEW DIRECTION. ROME WASNT BUILT BY CHILDREN AND AN INEXPERIENCED MILITARY.

ALL I’VE SEEN FROM LOMBARDI SO FAR IS MISTAKES, SO UNTIL THERE IS PROOF THAT HE IS A GOOD GM, I WILL NOT BELIEVE. I’M SURE I’VE BEEN A KINGS FAN MUCH LONGER THAN LOMBARDI, AND I THINK HE’S REALLY SCREWED THE TEAM.

Wow…Cristobal…you haven’t seen Malkin play much, have you?

mrbrett – i have to totally disagree with almost all of what you said.

The kings had only 1 first round draft pick between 69 and 78. between 78 and 89 they actually had 10, sometimes 2 in one year.

the kings may not have made the playoffs after the cup run, but neither did the ducks after losing to new jersey in the finals. they were able to build upon it and win it a few years on.

McNall may have screwed the team by getting arrested, but at least he cared about winning. He not only brought gretzky, but reportedly wanted to get Bossy to play alongside him. I will never put this guy down and don’t judge him too harshly for his ‘creative financing’.

the kings in 93 were an awesome team that just didn’t win it. There are plenty of good, even great, teams that don’t win the trophy. the nfl patriots didn’t lose a game all season but couldn’t win the super bowl.

the 93 team had robitaille, sandstrom, granato, blake, zhitnik, sydor, conacher, dave taylor, donnelly, mullin, mark hardy, and MCSORLEY. IF you think that’s not that good, i can’t help you.

maybe AEG pays you, but i don’t like the building, i don’t like the uniforms, i don’t like the salary cap, i don’t like the prices, i don’t like the marketing campaign over winning, i don’t like the corporate crowds, i don’t like the conservative christian movies Anschutz is pumping out, i don’t like him complaining about profits, i don’t like his choice of GM and i didn’t like his GMs choice of crawford. i don’t like the direction hockey is going……

I do like sports that are competitive, playoff hockey, and holding on to career kings like taylor.

“cristobal said:
ME – Kopitar and Crosby were drafted the same year, there is no reason Kopitar could not be offered 6 million right now.”

Kopitar played an extra year in Sweden before coming to the Kings. Drafted-the-same-year is not the same as signed-entry-level-contract-the-same-year. Crosby played out his 3-year deal just as Kopitar is doing this year. Kopitar will get his money. Don’t worry.

mrbrett, i have seen both kopitar and malkin and i play hockey. i know what i’m looking at and the kings have never drafted a player the likes of Kopitar.

MRBRETT – just because you played 23 years doesn’t mean you don’t suck.

You may be confusing the Malkin/Kopitar issue because Kopitar plays for a horrible franchise and on a horrible team.

Bossy’s back was his physical problem, mr know it all. Anyway, you showed that you know next to nothing about hockey and the players when you stated that gretzky and kurri were the only good players on the 93 kings. you said it all.

Cristobal,

Crosby signed an extension last season. Didn’t you hear about that? His entry-level contract has been fulfilled, so he can now negotiate free of the rookie cap.

As far as Petr Prajsler and Mikko Makela, were those guys Lombardi’s fault? Makela had some good years in the league and acquiring him just didn’t work out. Is your ideal GM never supposed to make an error in judgment?

And you like Joe Corvo, who doesn’t play a lick of defense?! You probably like the fact that he beats up women, too.

And Kopitar is now the third best player in the league? Holy crap! He’s good, and he could be a superstar, but to say he’s the third best player in the league at this point in time is absolute folly! If other people disagree with me, please give me a good dressing down on this matter.

And you want Kopitar to get six million because Brian Campbell got six? Sop, what you’re telling us is that because Dale Talon is stupid that gives other GM’s the right to be stupid? Granted, Kopitar will end up, barring injury, being ten times the play Campbell will ever be, but you’re comparing apples and oranges here because Kopitar is still on his entry-level contract and plays a different position.

Kopitar better than Malkin? Better than Kovalchuk, Iginla, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lacavalier, Gaborek, Thornton, just to name a few? Yes, he’s up there with some of them, but third best in the entire frigging league? Are you kidding me?

And Anthony, I’m still waiting to hear from you about which teams have made contract offers to O’Sullivan, since you seem to have inside information about this stuff when nobody else here does. C’mon, we all want to know!

JDM – I appreciate, once again, your opinion and ability to write. I have no problem with being eager to see the young guys and enjoy watching someone become a great nhler.

irish pat – tukonen was also greatly impressive in the wjc. lombardi just traded him. Like i said in my initial post under this topic, lombardi should just keep his mouth shut and sign these guys. Don’t tell us you haven’t traded young players when you’ve already traded Gleason, Cammalleri, Tukonen, Avery, and Stuart. Don’t go to the media with warnings to other GM’s, threatening to sign their players if they dare sign yours. It’s just rhetoric to make excuses as to why the kings are so far below the cap floor. Why hasn’t he signed Stoll? Get it done. Quit the BS.

irish pat – name the winners and character guys Lombardi drafted in san jose….

I did say ‘reportedly’ in the bossy case, and the point is that McNall tried to make it happen. He wanted the best players he could get and thought it was possible that it could work out. Has AEG ever given you the impression they care as much as that?

and spelling…

cristobal,

I should have specified; winners and character guys for the Kings. I think it’s funny that you keep crapping on Lombardi’s tenure with the Sharks. Who would you rather have as GM?

I agree with you that Bruce McNall cared. I’m not a fan of AEG, but at least AEG hasn’t had a problem making payroll.

irish pat – i’m not crapping on his tenure with the sharks, i just think his supposed success is overblown. again, if you can point to a string of magical picks, something the team was built around, show me. but outside of some very high picks, there’s only a couple of gems. hardly Rome, hardly a dynasty.

cristobal

one of your early comments really bothers me, the one where you said that Kopitar and Crosby were drafted the same year, so why isnt Kopitar making 6 mil, when Crosby is making 8+. Its simple. Crosby played the year after he was drafted and has played 3 years in the NHL. Kopitar went back to Sweden and played only 2 years. Both players signed a maximun level entry deal, which is 3 years long. So after this year, Kopitar can make his millions, but only after this year. He can sign a new contract for 15 years, $200 million if he wants, but it will only kick in after this year. I hope you understand this. Another example is Jack Johnson. This year is also his third year, like Kopitar. The 5-8 games he played at the end of 07 count as 1 year of his 3 year entry contract.

ryan oliver – i did say i don’t really know the salary cap completely, and really don’t know anything about the rookie salary cap. It doesn’t add up however as Patrick Kane, Jonathan Toews, Carey Price, Evgeny Malkin; all these players have 2 years or less in the nhl and are all under contract for much more than Kopitar.

cristobal said:

maybe AEG pays you, but i don’t like the building, i don’t like the uniforms, i don’t like the salary cap, i don’t like the prices, i don’t like the marketing
campaign over winning, i don’t like the corporate crowds, i don’t like the conservative christian movies Anschutz is pumping out, i don’t like him complaining
about profits, i don’t like his choice of GM and i didn’t like his GMs choice of crawford. i don’t like the direction hockey is going……

Damn! Who do you ever bother following the Kings then? Dude, you have some major anger issues to work out. Its not our fault if you were beaten as a kid!

cristobal, I have a problem with being way too verbose trying to get across simple things, so I don’t want to go on for pages here responding to everything.

After reading your comment about DT, I get where you are coming from and just plain disagree. DT set up part of a good development infrastructure and left with some good forwards in place, but with tons of holes. He spent a lot of time being just good enough and holding out until the new CBA. Then the team got what it wanted and it still didn’t work.

The big difference I see here is AEG isn’t in the picture anymore other than setting the budget for DL. Them getting out of hockey decisions and leaving it to a guy with a plan is better than being “just good enough”. It just takes time.

I would not agree DT had the team in a promising place based on that. All you do walking down the middle of the road is get hit by cars.

All caps are never appropriate for anything other than making yourself annoying. Quotes work fine.

I hear the complaints about Nagy and Hadzus and spending money…what is the real point exactly? How do those moves make any difference to us long term? My point is about what expectations are. Those guys filled holes. Spending that money or not was not going to effect ticket prices, so what effect is there? I think the complaints about DL failing on meaningless decisions is, well, meaningless. Okay, his UFA signnings have mostly not worked out, but then again they were never meant to even remotely effect the important stuff the organization is focused on, so what is the point of listing those as a problem?

I’ve heard you complain about trading away Gleason and Belanger. So, you don’t like Johnson?

I’ve heard you complain about Avery being traded. His track record says more than one team has found an addition through his subtraction, but you think different?

To be completely clear on this one, I think we should have gotten better return for him. I also think we should have gotten better return for Cammi. The market stands in strong contrast to what I think however, I am willing to admit.

Corvo was signed as a UFA to a large enough contract that OTT later regretted it and traded him away. You’d have liked to see DL go out and throw money at a guy like him? He also has a pretty poor locker room reputation, not as bad as Avery but still not a well liked guy, and you don’t ever hear much mention of that.

Complain all you want about Huet and Lilja, but you’re better than Carnac if you saw these guys as being worth a damn when they left. Yes, I heard fans complain when Lilja was moved (who btw was moved by DT not DL), but they were also complaining about that rising star Bednar being moved at the same time.

Its an understatement to say that I did not think highly of Cloutier prior to him coming here, and he far outreached my imagination for how bad he could suck. I do think this was a big mistake by DL. At the same time, I understand what he was trying to do with the move. I don’t think the guy is flawless, but he is consistantly doing the big things that matter long term done correctly and his mistakes are overwhelmingly on things that don’t matter much.

Well, assuming your expectations are in line with the organizations. I don’t expect to win this season, so right there you aren’t going to hear me complain about a lot of the stuff you point to. I do expect to see progress made on long term issues. When I see that getting messed up, you’ll hear me change tune (like with the lack of return on Cammi).

But back to the main thing, I understand where you are coming from and just plain think you are wrong that DT had things under control and everything was looking good until DL came along. DT served well, but a winner was not being built. Unfortunately it didn’t seem like he was in complete control. He did a great job of making lemonaid, but that management structure was not working. It was time for him to go, and time for AEG to step back and let hockey people make hockey decisions.

I totally feel for DT also and understand why he went to DAL. He runs the show and has TL in his business constantly (it’s widely rumored JR’s signning was not a DT decision, for example), and then a new guy comes in to take his job and AEG goes hands-off all of a sudden? I feel for him and want to credit where due, but it was time for a change.

And the Malkin thing for you and other people, I really think you don’t have a good handle on the guy if you want to attribute lack of leadership and single dimensional attributes to the guy. Go ask a Pens fan if he likes Malkin and compare that to the way Kings fans like Kopitar. Then go look at their performances.

Nothing wrong with Kopitar, surely a top talent, but there is some serious homerism going on if people can’t recognize better players.

Cristobal –

Bonuses. Kopitar didn’t get any in his entry level deal. Those cap hits of Kane and Toews and Price, etc are not what they made necessarily, though I imagine they hit their bonuses. The cap hit is the maximum they COULD make with all their bonuses. Look at Stamkos contract he just signed to see a basic layout of the maximum an entry level contract can be. His salary is only $875k I think, with about $2.5 mill more in potential bonuses for point production, games played, +/-, if team finishes above a certain spot, etc. Same with Malkin, who finishes out his entry level contract this season. Sucks for Kopitar not to get the bonuses, but his agent is as much if not more to blame for that than DL.

To all you DL haters out there (Anthony, Cristobal, et al)…I don’t think you really are as big a Kings fan as you say your are. I believe you’re sticking around hoping for the day that DL gets fired so you can tell us all you were right. Why bother? You’ve made your point, you don’t like the guy. Enough already. Dave Taylor works for the Stars…profess your love for the Kings glory days by becoming a Stars fan and see if he can help build a winner over there. Me, I’ll take the rebuild, remain patient, hope things work out. If it doesn’t, oh well. I’ve been a Kings fan my whole life too. And with that comes a whole lot of disappointment and anguish. If DL fails, he’s just another one to add to the list.

JDM – Thanks for the answer. I had to sift through pages of mindless drivel to find it. Much appreciated! I guess they’ll be certain to hit the minimum then!

Everyone else – Wow, calm down!

cristobal said:

mrbrett, i have seen both kopitar and malkin and i play hockey.

Andruw Jones plays baseball, doesn’t he?

Cristobal,

Shouldn’t you be training for your upcoming season with the Blackhawks instead of incessantly blogging on this website?

Cristobal,

Shouldn’t you be training for your upcoming season with the Blackhawks instead of incessantly blogging on this website?

Wow anon… harsh…

I was thinking the opposite, that Rich is sitting back, laughing at all of us feverishly arguing with each other.

And if he were censoring, I wouldn’t be able to read your post about censoring. Sometimes posts get back up and show up 30-60 minutes late. Anonymous posts have to be approved by Rich, but I’m that just means he has to physically click a button before the blog will post them. Not censorship; mechanics.

Anonymous – i can’t think of anything more foolish than reading things you don’t want to read. There are plenty of articles on this blog alone, and yet you just want to complain about us….

That’s like me watching the Korean channels and complaining that I can’t understand why they keep talking….

@ voice of reason’s Malkin vs Kopitar stats and Captain Materials assessment –

No one is going to argue that Kopitar has put up better numbers, but just like in the Tukonen argument (funny that cristobal is on the other side concerning Kopitar) numbers are not everything. I’ve only seen Malkin play maybe 20 full games, and other than that just highlights and reading up, but I think Kopitar has more intangible, which is why I agreed with cristobal in my assessment of him over Malkin. I really think one can not ignore the different teams they play for when comparing their stats. Sure, VoR you used teams Goal averages, but Malkin not only plays in a conference that favors more wide open hockey and is widely agreed to be less competative than the west.

You want to talk stats…

Why not compare divisions?

If we don’t count the GA of Pitts or Los Angeles, Pittsburgs division overall gave up 121 more goals over the last two seasons than L.A.’s, widely considered one of if not the toughest division in the league. 121 more goals against (49 more this year, 72 last) amounts to a maximum of 363 points more to go around.

If we go by conference, the eastern conference had 333 more goals scored against than the west (again, not counting Pitts or L.A. GA) last year, and this year, 255 more in the east, for a total of 588 more goals scored against in the east, amounting to an extra potential 1764 points to go around, or an extra 59.8 per team when counting 30 teams in, or 60.8 if counting 29 (not sure which is correct for this stat comparison).

If you think Malkin’s game is more well rounded than Kopitars, that he has more intangibles, is a better defensive forward, is better in the locker room, then fine. But don’t throw stats in my face, tell me that Pens fans like Malkin a lot (duh), and say that based on that it’s totally wrong to think Kopitar a better player than Malkin. Sure, Malkin stepped it up when Crosby went down and scored the bulk of his points then, but he wa invisible in the finals, and hasn’t carried a team on his back for as many games as Kopitar has had to. Kopitar also has done it a full year and a half younger than Malkin.

If it will satisfy you for me to concede that Malkin has a slight edge over Kopitar in terms of production than Malkin, fine, I’ll give you that. But I think not putting them on similar grounds in terms of overall game and talent is just as much typical Kings pessism as it is my homerism to think him better.

Anonymous – If you want to read a blog with good articles and few posts (though i will pop up there) go to Gann Matsuda’s site ‘Frozen Royalty’

http://frozenroyalty.net/

cristobal said:

yesitscal – could you explain your andrue jones joke to me??? i don’t get it.

Did anyone else have trouble catching my drift? If so, then I’ll write a detailed explanation…

“I believe Taylor was better in the draft than Lombardi. I’ve consistently listed the players he drafted to show that he found NHL caliber players in early and later rounds. Because I list Lilja, who just won a cup, doesn’t mean I think he’s going to comparable to Doughty. Show me the picks Lombardi made outside of the top 10 overall that are great: the list is very small.”

cristobal,
you can’t compare draft yet, it’s way too early to judge him on this. DL has only been at this 2 years (his first draft was all Al Murrays team of scouts). Taylor never seemed to see the real holes this team always had, young dmen and goalies. He always seem to draft wingers in the first few round and then it seem to be a grab bag of “what left” and more soft Euros. I still believe that Taylor was afraid to make another “Jamie Storr” goalie mistake and that’s why we never drafted anyone worth a damn in the first 2 or 3 rounds. Aside from Bernier (I’ll give Taylor that one), look at our goalie and defensmen stable since DL took over…see a BIG DIFFERENCE? In 2 years DL has done something no other Kings GM ever did. Let this thing play out for a few years when DL picks are playing, then compare the two.

JDM – whoah, that stat thing has my head spinning. You’re right, however, in that I have no problem if someone disagrees with my opinion about him possibly being the 3rd best player in the league, or possibly betten than Malkin right now. I’m not going to say they’re wrong. I just disagree.

Don’t these people get why Lombardi’s doing what he is? He wants Tevares next year.

“He wants Tevares next year.”

Me 2. I’m happy if we improve, I’m happy with Tavares. One more franchise talent at forward is all this team lacks.

ok, i’ll take a stab at comparing DL’s draft record with the sharks vs. DT’s draft record. Obviously, at this time it’s premature to rate DL’s draft record with the Kings in terms of players who actually made it to the NHL. Rating the potential is for another post.

to compare their records i looked at how many of the players each drafted played over 100 NHL games. as i understand it, 100 games is generally considered the bench mark for determining whether or not a player “made it” as a career NHLer.

DT
GM from ’97-’06
I reviewed the ’97 to ’05 draft.
As of the end of the season, there are 15 players in 9 drafts with over 100 NHL games.
12 1st round draft picks – 7 with +100 games

DL
GM from ’96-’03
Reviewed the ’96 to ’02 draft.
As of the end of the season, there are 15 players in 7 drafts with over 100 NHL games.
8 1st round draft picks – 7 with +100 games

To recap:
DT with 15 players in 9 drafts with over 100 NHL games.
DL with 15 players in 7 drafts with over 100 NHL games.

at the end of the day, the #s might chance slightly as there are players who haven’t reached 100 games but are on their way.

Those are some very interesting stats, BringBackKingston. However I wonder if 100 games is the right cutoff point. Jeff Jillson was pretty much a bust yet even he managed 140 NHL games.

How would the draft picks compare if you used 200 games as the yardstick?

The funny thing is, as much as DL craves high draft picks it turns out that several of his middle and late-round picks have been real winners — especially the goalies.

JonG,

currently…

DT with 9 players with +200 NHL games in 9 drafts.
DL with 11 players with +200 NHL games in 7 drafts.

Thanks Captain Material.

I don’t understand the post going off on Rich. This is a great site and he allows us to debate all things Kings. Why would he be Anthony or cristobal? Rich has always come across as a knowledgeable hockey man..why create your alter-ego with those 2?

I think Anthony is a true Kings fan who just likes to stir up debate. I don’t recall him ever being rude to those who disagree with him…which is many. He gets the subject going with a crazy “out there” post. Keep it going Anthony! When the Kings win the cup, you’ll be celebrating the same as the rest of us.

Cristobal you have some serious issues dude. You think you know everything about everything and all of us are beneath you in terms of hockey knowledge and intelligence. You played hockey so therefore that gives you inside info the rest of us aren’t privy to. Who are you Al Bundy? “I played high school football” Many of us have played hockey on various levels. It’s possible some of us may be even as good, or heaven forbid, better than you.
You critique other peoples grammar and writing skills. Who the freak do you think you are?
If you have an opinion, give it and get the hell out. Don’t tell me you know more than I do. You know absolute jack*shit. Cut out your pseudo elitist attitude and learn to deal with people who have a different opinion on things than you do.
I don’t know what you do for a living..and frankly I could give a shit less, but I hope you are able to deal with people better in a face to face setting than blogging.
Sorry to my fellow regulars on this blog for taking up your valuable reading time with this shit, but this was really starting to piss me off.
And now back to all things Kings.

nykingfan,

If we win it all, I will see to it personally to buy you a cold one. I’ll even fly you out here. I admire a person with your geography, being such a great fan.

As a matter fact, all of you, (even voice of rerason), drinks are on me.

Cristobal, you’re critique on DL is right on. But that’s about it. Your other comments – I’ll hold my judgment.

I loved Dave Taylor as a player! So so many years he was the soul of this franchise, but as a GM all he ever proved was that he was very good at being mediocre.

It’s very easy to spend someone else’s money. Remember that Lombardi has a budget, as every manager in every line of work does, and he has to be fiscally responsible to his employer. The economy is in the mess it’s in now because people lived up to their means rather than a little below it, so when the real estate bubble burst some got ruined. Spend wisely and shrewdly and don’t throw money around like it’s water, which we’re also short of these days…

JonG,
no doubt that his FA agent signings haven’t been stellar even when you consider the role they were brought in to play. this area has been his weakest so far.

the only sugar i put on it, though, is that in the grand scheme of things it hasn’t really mattered yet. even if the FAs played up to or beyond expectations, the kings would still have had a hard time making the playoffs. or even if a top FA signed with us, i still see the kings struggling because there were too many holes.

now, i will rate his ability to sign quality FA when this team gets good enough to challenge for a playoff spot. can he sign a FA to help put us over the top when it really matters? we’ll find out over the next few years. and if he can’t do it, we won’t be the first team in history to fire the person who got us to the dance but couldn’t get us to dance with the prom queen.

on a side note, he has definitely drafted a lot of potential. DL passes on drafting for now. his grade goes up or down depending on the # that turn into true NHLers.

i’d even rate DL as passing on trading right now. up until this summer his trades were based on building up youth. he did a good job at this. now, how the players he traded for this summer pan out will cement his trading ability. i think this area could have a bigger impact on how long DL remains as GM than his past FA signings.

wow, this is remarkable. i think i regret reading all those comments, but it was a lot of fun.

my 2 cents: glad Deano’s being aggressive. don’t see this meaning too much in the grand scheme of things, but i believe in what he’s doing. the Kings under Dave Taylor were going (almost) nowhere, and we’re definitely trending up– if not this year, than next.

Cristobal: you say Lombardi in San Jose wasn’t a big deal? San Jose has become a perennial contender since his hiring, and i’m gonna need a lot more evidence to prove that wasn’t simply being in the right place at the right time. i could say more, but it’s all been said already and then some.

also, how is four good players and a couple decent prospects “promising”? when Lombardi started he had what was somewhere a skeleton and a base. the foundation comes a lot.

i’d love to see Sully signed soon, because the past history of the hard-luck Kings has given me paranoia. having said that, i’m not gonna worry too much about it unless Rich or a major news source tells me i should be.

i believe we’re not letting Kopi, JMFJ, or Bernier go anywhere, because they (along with Dustin Brown) WILL be our Fab Four for years to come.

and i think that this blog is not being censored, but nice try. even for a Kings fan, that conspiracy theory is ridiculous. the people who really want Kings coverage aren’t coming to read Anthony or Cristobal, and if criticism really did increase hits you’d get posted. maybe you’re attacking others or using profanity? i don’t know, but i highly doubt someone has it in for you, “Anon.”

and because i need an escape from the endless Brett Favre coverage on ESPN (hey, you know he’s a Jet now?), i’ll dwell on this (shamelessly stolen from Quisp): It is 65 days, 21 hours, 27 minutes and 14 seconds until Saturday, October 11, 2008 at 7:00:00 PM (Los Angeles time). things can only get more interesting until then!

BringBackKingston,

I agree with most of your thoughts but I disagree with the comment about how his FA signings to date haven’t really mattered.

Even though we were never going to be Cup contenders over the past couple of years, I do think the Kings should have done a better job of icing a competitive team. Just because you’re not reaching for the top of the mountain doesn’t mean you should stop climbing completely. That produces a defeatist mentality, which I suspect is a big reason why we can’t find anyone to fill our open roster spots on defense. Even Modry wasn’t willing to sign up for more futility.

wavesinair, that post on he said, she said was awesome. I agree, no matter the opinion, we are all Kings fans.
I know I would have a beer or drink with any of you cats at a Kings game.

I first would like to say that I went for a long walk with my girlfriend, made some pizza and salad, and logged back on and was laughing my butt off at wavesinair’s post about the he said, he said, he said.

Then I read further and was utterly shocked to read nykingsfan’s “unibomber”-like manifesto. Come on nykingsfan, lighten up. I may get a little prickly at times, but I’m not trying to drive anybody to madness.

As for the posts that don’t like what I’m writing and don’t understand why they keep reading these comments, I don’t know what to tell you, other than, “don’t read them.”

JDM, quisp, J and a few others are quality debaters (and i’m sure quality people) and maybe i should not respond to some of the others as it seems they just lose it.

Bringbackkingston – I disagree. I think the best way to make this comparison is to take in to consideration draft positioning, and who these players are today. Since they were all drafted 96 or later, none of them have retired for age reasons. Injury alone would be an acceptable reason for being out of the game at this point.
Another angle to this that should be followed up on is this: I had also posted that I would like to see both of their drafts compared as far as what they did after the 1st round. I’m gonna look some stuff up and get back to you.
One last thing to consider is the state of the team when Taylor and Lombardi took over their respective teams. The playoff and league finish comparisons are skewed, in my opinion, because the Kings were coming out of bankruptcy and the sell-off that crippled them for a 2-3 years.
Also, Dave Taylor had 1 pick in the top 3, Lombardi had 3.

JonG – I believe you are crediting Lombardi with drafting Nabakov and Toskala, he was Assistant GM when they were drafted.

And as far as me saying “i play hockey”. I guess that may sound arrogant (not as arrogant as psycho’s attack) and I apologize for saying “just because you play, doesn’t mean you don’t suck” to mrbrett. Although I will point out you could have said the same thing to me in resoponse, i would have accepted that. I guess I wrote that because i wanted to point out that I’m not judging things from a couch, having never played the game. I’ve never been arrogant about my skills, or lack of them. If whoever is still reading this cannot figure out that I love competitive sports, let me just say that I love to play the game in my mind, I love to see a goal before it happens, and I love to root for the underdog – the guy nobody believe’s in.

There are many who say I’m nuts for my views on Kopitar. They list Iginla, Lacavalier, Zetterburg and others…..thats fine. If you were to tell me that the core of this team is going to be doughty, brown, o’sullivan, and JJ….like they are the one’s to build around….i’d say i disagree because unless Tavares turns out to be better than Kopitar, he’s the cornerstone. I also wonder if those people that are calling me nuts about this don’t find themselves questioning their own opinions. Malkin was on the only team that gave Detroit any competition in the Stanley Cup Finals. The kings were 2nd worst on a technicality last year, and 3rd worst team the prior year (all since lombardi came in).

The core of this team is Kopitar, Brown, O’Sullivan, Boyle (God Willing), Johnson, Doughty (God Willing), Teubert (God Willing) and Bernier.

Kopiter is by far and away the best player on this team Cristobal, and I was not arguing with you on that. He also has quite a bit of work to do in many areas. He can’t win a faceoff to save his life, and until he does that, he is not an elite center. He is weak defensively in the corners, and timid, easily knocked off the puck when retrieving it down low, and if he could play with the same fire he does in the offensive zone, he’d be fine. He gets lazy defensively and loses his “man” far too often…these are all VERY fixable. These are all things I get all over my centers about having played defense for 23 years…I see a center loafing it in our zone…I aim for their head when I’m shooting from the point (j/k there).

Seriously…he is as good as anyone in the league, but he has quite a bit of work to do…he’s also only been in the league 2 years…give him time.

Cristobal,

You’re right about Nabakov and Toskala. I thought Lombardi was GM in 1994/95 when those guys were drafted, but apparently he was only the Assistant GM.

Now I’m bummed again.

Yes, Waives…I do.

REALLY think about it. How long have you been around this franchise. Re-read my post.

Jack Kent Cooke…didn’t give one crap about this team and was more concerned about selling tickets than anything else.

Buss…didn’t care about this team one bit.

McNall…yes, wanted to win so much that he bankrupted the franchise and the franchise almost folded.

Sidowitz…should never have been able to buy the franchise in the first place, and the Kings actually went out of business (yes, they literally did for a day) under his ownership. The NHL actually had to take over operations of the club under him.

AEG…they have made mistakes, and plenty of them. But, under their tenure, this club has had growth that they should have had 40 years ago.

Get the picture?

Dombardo you are a joke…Did you also warn the Red Wings not to be in the Stanley Cup this year or we’ll kick their ass.

Well, I’m glad to see most of you guys finally come around and see things my way.

I mean, what other outlook is there.

wavesinair, good stuff digging up that article. AEG is the problem.

I see one difference here however than with Taylor. Taylor was definately hamstrung, not only with money, but with mandates to make the playoffs. A full rebuild may not have been the plan two years ago when DL was hired, but I think when he was DL was given the same mandate that Taylor was given for so many years, “Stay competative, make the playoffs at all costs.” This “full rebuild” however seems to be motivated by DL, and not AEG. For once, it seems like the GM had a plan, presented it to ownership, and got them on board. I think he did this by telling them he would save them money for a year or two by staying at the cap floor. I think if DL had said “oh yeah, let me bring in 3 $4-5 mill this year FA and we have a shot at the playoffs, then AEG would have opened up the check books for it. I think DL finally convinced them that was a stupid alternative to a full rebuild, and sucking up a “lost” season. If anything, I get the sneaking suspicion (really stupid one) that DL threw the last season in order to prove to ownership his plan was better than the sign as many FA’s, trade youth and vets and lets pray we slip in at number 8 and get atleast one round of playoff profits in our coffers plan. For once, our GM seems to be cautiously leading AEG by his own puppet strings in the guise of ‘helping’ them by cutting costs, instead of just dancing for them.

I really think that while yes, AEG is cheap, and its easy to assume they mandated “stay as close to the floor as possible!”, that has never been their contention. They have never spent to the maximum, but also forked over for some names in the hopes of the playoffs. I think DL is brilliant in that to me he’s ‘fooled’ AEG into getting on board with his rebuild, all the while making them think it was their idea and selling them on it by keeping us at the floor. I’m hoping by saving them tons of cash this year, next year he can ask for a big favor and convince them to pay up for Kopi and JJ.

All speculation, but from DL’s word, actions, appearance and energy, as well as considering AEG’s sordid past, this is the line of reasoning that makes sense to me.

Alas anthony, one more outlook to add to the pile of “not anthony’s” outlooks.

JDM – in your post you say that Lombardi is refusing to dance for them and that he’s in charge of the situation, to paraphrase. I take another view.

I believe that if you consider some of these things from a professional point of view, that Lombardi, Blake, Stuart, and Cammalleri are all trying to prevent the destruction of their reputations and careers.

I think Lombardi has made some of the worst trades and FA signings and 1 really poor coaching hire. Tearing down the team and building through the draft only will help cushion the blow to his reputation when he’s let go. I don’t know that his odds are good for being here when and if the rebuild is successful. If he’s fired, he can still blame AEG and the Kings franchise for most of the failures. Everybody knows the Kings are a no win situation, and, as he said about T Murray’s job, the hardest job in hockey.

I believe Blake approached things the same way. His reputation was being tarnished playing here and even kings fans were saying he sucked. There is absolutely no reason he should have felt obliged to help the Kings at the trade deadline by agreeing to a deal because the last 2 years here have sullied his career. By waiting until the offseason and signing with san jose, he’s in a no lose situation because they are not going to miss the playoffs and he must know that he can still contribute to a winner, even a cup ready team.

Why would stuart want to come back to the Kings. He was losing respect in the league and was no longer considered a decent commodity. He wasn’t missed in Boston, was he? Detroit made him an instant commodity and he’s still young. He could be with that team for 8-10 more years.

Visnovsky was really suffering in terms of his reputation. This guy is an all-star defenseman. I’m not going to say he’s as good as Zubov, but he’s in the same mold. Visnovsky may provide Edmonton, or someone else, with a great offensive defenseman for another 5-6 years. Look at Zubov, i believe he’s 36-37.

Cammalleri as well. All he had to look forward to here is injuries (his size) and less points. The Kings will really struggle to get the puck out of their end this year, and last year he was hampered by injury and the only true sniper for the other team to focus on. O’Sullivan was still struggling most of the season, and Brown and Kopitar were not enough, by themselves, to distract the opposition. Being in Calgary is probably only going to help his career, whereas, the Kings could only ruin him.

I kind of mentioned this in my last post, but my main knock on Taylor was that he was too eager to please ownership. He definately did his best and cared about this team. I knew Taylor’s daughter the last few years of DT’s reign, and she always conveyed to me how much of a struggle it was for him, but that he tortured himself caring about this team. I applaud Taylor for his career as a King, both on and off the ice. I still think it was his time to go. Not so much because he did a terrible job. As you mentioned, losing Allison and Deadmarsh for a full year the same year, only to put faith in both coming back and having one retire and one never return to form, was by no means his fault and was the worst thing to happen to this team in a loooong time. To me, that’s when we were crippled and haven’t come back from yet.

But back to Taylor pleasing ownership, which is all well and good, but I find DL to be craftier than Taylor. I think DL knows how to play AEG without pandering to them as much as Taylor… maybe I’m talking out of my blow hole…

cristobal-

I agree that part of Lombardi’s action are covering his own a$$. Hell, he has to. But I don’t think that negates his intentions. Sure he wants to keep his job and his rep in tact, but I believe that the man wants to build something here. If he is really concerned about his rep, than making good on his word is the best thing he can do for it. I see your points with Cammalleri, Stuart, Blake and Vis. However, that doesn’t explain why we were the only other team really in the running for Stuart if Detroit wouldn’t pony up the bucks. Blake would have signed here had DL wanted him. I think DL is trying to shed old baggage, its a shame that as good as Vis was and is, he falls in to this category. I think Cammy’s vigorous arbitration told DL he wasn’t the kind of ‘character’, or as I said many many posts ago, ‘like-minded individual’ that DL is comprising this team of. I’m praying Frolov doesn’t fall into that category, because surely if anyone else to going to go he will be next. I kind of compare DL’s rebuild to writing a script or book, or making some piece of artwork, a drawing, edit of a film, writing of a song or choreographing of a dance or something, most of which are things I’ve done several times. Usually you start off with something good, fueled by a great idea. Often times, whilst in the middle of creating something that made sense when you started, you hit a roadblock. So you adjust, and hit another, you adjust again and then another. Ultimately you are left with something that doesn’t really resemble your original intentions. There may still be a lot about it that is good, but it’s not right its getting more bastardized by the day. So, do you march on and try and force an imperfect thing? No, in artistic endevours, or most matters of creating something, you have to know when its time to just scrap it all together and start fresh. That pretty much sums up the last 10 months of our franchise for me.

mrbrett – I seriously disagree. I’m not hoping the Kings make the playoffs this year. I’m hoping they get Tevares. Like I said, I think you’re either getting better or you’re getting worse. I have only seen a decline in the past 2 years. The big picture, i believe, is that Lombardi’s throwing the season in order to gain high draft picks. I also see many of his free-agent signings, trades, and coaching decisions so far, as damaging. One example is Steve Bernier: I consider him a good and promising player. He was acquired by Vancouver for a 2nd and 3rd round pick this summer. This is a young player that I would like to see the Kings acquire and have around in 5 years. There is no doubt that he can play at the NHL level, unlike guys like cliche, clune, and all the later round picks Lombardi has made. I put this question out many times, but look at Lombardi’s drafts in san jose outside of the 1st round – Cheechoo (a gem, marvelous pick), Erhoff, Clowe, and Mark Smith (currently UFA). If you find others, let me know. But I don’t see Lombardi making trades that are bringing in young players able to step into a team that severely lacks talent. Besides, I still see the Stuart trade as going backwards. I feel they should have kept the 26 year old established defenseman rather than trading him for low picks, then trading the best of those for Brad Richardson. It makes no sense.

JDM – good points from you about the creativity and building up to an end. I’d love to sit down with you and hear about what you do, actually.

As ever, it’s great to debate with you on this stuff….I like what you say about Taylor and how you see the big picture while kinda admitting you bury your head in the sand and just have faith…..I can’t argue with that.

I’m still going to let you know when there is a great matchup in the English Premier League so that you can give it a chance. You may find yourself forgetting about the Kings just a little bit. Plus, football is almost year round….

Did you look up the book I mentioned, or are you interested in some that are very good? Maybe you don’t have time, but if you like good reads, let me know….

Always appreciate a good book. I forget which one you recommended before? I’ve got pleanty of time to read, atleast for the next two weeks… especially during jury duty next week! Shoot me an email so we don’t bother everyone else with our non-kings nonsense… murrayman33@yahoo.com.

I’ll give EPL a shot, but I’ve gotta be honest, it’s never been my favorite sport. I’ve been to one pro soccer game several years ago on 4th of July, it was mroe fun than I expected. I was in London last December and an englishman in a bar invited me to an EPL game, but it was on the day I was leaving. I had a good argument with him about the NHL vs. EPL (which I know very little about, him being the first person to really tell me anything about it). I think it’s really intruiging that they fit so many teams into an stacked, overcrowded, seemingly arena-less place like London. What is it, 15 or more teams they have in one city alone?

Imagine the Ducks, Coyotes, Sharks and Kings all in L.A… and then some… that would build some serious rivalry!

forgot to post this –

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=15101901&posted=1#post15101901

Interview with Kopitar from Slovenia press. Positives and potential pitfalls…

I would just like to point out that nobody — nobody, nobody, NOBODY — knows what the Kings are going to be like this season. You can read tea leaves, analyze stats, regurgitate past performance, whatever, and of course it is always safe to say any team will do next season basically what it did last season. Any idiot can do that. I can predict next year’s standings in sports I have never even heard of simply by parroting the previous season’s standings, and I will do more or less as well as professional pundits. You can say you’re sure the Kings will finish last, or you’re sure they won’t make the playoffs, or whatever other thing you want to be sure of, but in fact virtually anything is possible. The Kings probably won’t finish with more than 100 points. But who knows? You can say the defense is not NHL caliber. But who knows? You just don’t know. You don’t know who the Kings are going to sign between now and 10-11. You don’t know who is going to make the team. You don’t know who is going to get hurt. You don’t know. Maybe Bernier is ready. Maybe he’s not. Maybe Terry Murray will be the answer to our prayers. Maybe not. Maybe this is the year Kopitar busts out. Maybe not. Jack Johnson? Brian Boyle? Will he be rookie of the year? A total bust? There’s no way to know.

I always think about Ken Dryden. I believe it was ROgie Vachon who was the Canadiens starter, on a great team, with maybe six or seven games left in the season, when the Canadiens decided to bring up a rookie goalie who had never played an NHL game. Ken Dryden played so well he started in the playoffs and the rest is history. (did Rogie ever play another game for the Habs? I don’t think so…but I’m not an expert.) A singularity? Maybe. (probably.) But so what? That’s sports. These things happen.

It’s not insane or stupid or uninformed to hope that things might click and they might click this year. Any friggin thing is possible.

It is 65 days, 2 hours, 59 minutes and 20 seconds until Saturday, October 11, 2008 at 7:00:00 PM (Los Angeles time)

Petey,
I like your philosophy.
But why isn’t DL practicing what he preaches with O’Sullivan.
Does he favor Kopitar & JJ more than Sully.
Training Camp is only weeks away, and he’s not even close to signing him.
This GM’s bark is worse than his bite.
These worthless threats aren’t going to get him anywhere. And lately, other GM’s are not taking LA seriously.
Next season, let Vancouver sign up Kopitar – then DL goes after Lukas Krijek or Mayson Raymond. This is just an example.

Alright Rich, you heard Quisp; close up the blog, pack it up, shut her down, pull the plug. No one is allowed to speculate/discuss/debate/argue/suggest/guess what’s gonna happen with the kings because, as Quisp pointed out, no one can predict the future. YES, I know! I can’t believe it either! Thats just crazy talk. Fun robber.

petey – joe piskula is also eligible to come into the league and win the calder.

visnovsky, cammalleri, huet, kaberle, lilja, corvo………off the top of my head i count 6 players drafted outside of the 1st round and have played more than 200 games.

anthony said:

Petey,
I like your philosophy.
But why isn’t DL practicing what he preaches with O’Sullivan.
Does he favor Kopitar & JJ more than Sully.
Training Camp is only weeks away, and he’s not even close to signing him.

Anthony, how do you know that Lombardi isn’t close to signing Kopitar or Johnson? How can you make such a ludicrous statement when you don’t know? People on here have said that you’re an attorney, and as an attorney you should know that it’s highly improper to make assertions you can’t back up so, please, back up what you said and give us the evidence that they’re not close to being signed.

cristobal,
you criticize all of DL trades let’s looks at a few

cammy: he wanted BIG bucks during his arbitration and didn’t get it. Did it leave him sour? Probably. If he stays with the Kings, we all know he’s going to DEMAND a 5-7 mil per year contract. He’s not worth that kind of money. He would probably get either moved (not for a 1st rnd pick due to his pending UFA)or walks for nothing next season. Our return was being able to move up and get a get another top defensive prospect. I know he’s only a prospect, but if you let things play out, we don’t get that kind of return.

Lubo: this one was more of a mystery , but i can see how it solves a need that was lacking for us. We moved a small, though effective defenseman with a huge contract for a good center and a tough defenseman.Our defense was marshmellow soft, especially Lubo who also happened to smashed Corvo’s and Modrys turnover record by a mile. IMO this deal was also part of the new budget constraints that came from AEG, and Lubo being an older player with a new hefty contract just didn’t fit.

Gleason Belanger for Jack Johnson- no need to explain

Avery- had to be done

Cloutier…BAD no question, but this deal had more to due with Crawford. You know Crawford lobbied hard to get his guy and convinced DL to trade for him. DL took a swing with the extension thinking he’d get the guy Crow convinced him he was getting, and struck out.

Demitra- Got Sully and Lewis for a good player with consistant injury problems and a bad locker room attitude.

There were plenty more but i hope you see my point. He has made some good deals and bad but no matter what, the Cloutier deal will always be the low mark and somehow always taint whatever good deals he makes.

Captain Material,
Good work.
Nice article.
I appreciate your opinions more than I do others.

I, for one, would love to see DL return to what he does best.
Scouting.

Maybe Philadelphia will take him back after AEG fires him.
Hopefully he’ll take that Carpetbagger, Hextall, with him.

Oh, one other thing. If you’re going to give credit to DT for picking guys who do turn out to be NHL regulars, you kind of also have to take into account when he’s traded them away without getting much back.

Trading Buchberger and Emerson (who go on to play about three years as thrid liners for us) for Audette (who turns in a 30 goal season after being traded and goes on to an all-star apearance) and Kaberle (who becomes a reguler top 6 defender) kind of takes some shine off the fact you were smart enough to pick Kaberle.

Lilja turns into Murray, so if you like him maybe that makes sense. Huet’s return is pretty much nothing in the end.

If you’re going to list these guys as wins for DT, you have to finish the tally and mark down how these guys ultimately became not so much in terms of helping this team.

To be fair, Avery goes for pretty much nothing other than the improved environment for everyone else on the team (maybe that is valuable, maybe not). We have yet to see if Cammi goes for anything significant. If Tuebert turns out good, maybe that trade does make sense.

Waveinhair re: “Alright Rich, you heard Quisp; close up the blog, pack it up, shut her down, pull the plug. No one is allowed to speculate/discuss/debate/argue/suggest/guess what’s gonna happen with the kings because, as Quisp pointed out, no one can predict the future. YES, I know! I can’t believe it either! Thats just crazy talk. Fun robber.”

I guess I should have more clear. My point is that there are a lot comments which are declarations/pronouncements/decrees or whatever you want to call them about what is certainly going to happen (e.g. the Kings will finish last, the Kings have written off this season, etc.) and just as many (usually the same comments) which belittle the opinions of others (e.g. if you think the Kings are going to do x y or z then you are insane, stupid or an AEG plant).

I am not in any way objecting to speculation, rumination, teeth grinding, fantasizing, or any other tool of the sports fan. I practice all of the above wantonly.

I object to the language that pretends to know better and is condescending if not outright insulting about it. Possibly I was condescending if not insulting in my objection.

I hold out hope that the Kings will develop ahead of schedule. Such a turn of events, even if not exactly likely, is not really implausible either.

quisp – i love you brother.

bringbackkingston – you are correct that i should not go off the top of my head. I thought Huet was for sure over 200 games. does the research take a long time or do you have a way to search for these statistics and numbers.

If it’s easy to do, can you find the amount of draft picks by DT and DL, outside of the first round, that are under contract in the NHL today? I will try and do that, but it may take me longer as i’ll have to go through all the draft listings on wikipedia. I think that here is where the difference will be made clear because guys like Parros, Huet, McGratton, and I think more are just now getting close to 200. One of the guys that I thought had more NHL games was Brennan (not that i think he’s a good player really) and was surprised at how few games he’s played. Something like 82. But I think when we compare these under contract players, that is where the difference lies.

Someone else pointed out that it is up to the player to make good on their draft, and that trades should be counted against the GM in a way. The point i’m after is whether they were able to spot talent when their place in the draft came up. I’m not opposed to discussing the trading away of draft picks, but i would first like to follow up on this thread….The statistics seem to favor lombardi slightly, although when the first round is taken into account, i still think that the 3 picks Lombardi had at the 3rd position or higher, in a sense pick themselves. I don’t really credit Taylor for the Jokinen pick so much, as it is clear to most scouts and media that the top 5 is usually predictable to some extent.

“[He is] obviously just leaving so many comments because no one will talk to [him] anymore in the real world.” – Rob

Have you been out there, Rob? I don’t want to talk to them, either.

Holy Cra@p!!! 191 posts- i’m not going to even begin to read back through that but it’s great that there’s so much hockey talk going on in August. Make’s me feel like I’m back in the Northeast.

Cristobal- you should check out the international hockey database- it’s a fairly extensive db of hockey stats and keeps a tab of each teams draft history- here’s a link to this years draft: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2008e.html . Each teams name links to collective history of their draft picks, sorted by year and round, and it also shows how many games each player has played in the NHL.

For the heck of it, I checked out Detroit’s recent draft success as many people, including myself, laud their ability of building from within (i think we may have discussed that in another post). Between 96 and 02- only 4 players drafted by Detroit have played in over 200 games, and only one over 400. Contrast that with DL’s record- 11 over 200 and 9 of those over 350 games played. I went through a bunch of other teams- ottawa, new jersy, chicago, montreal, etc, etc. and those numbers were among the best. Certainly the 96-98 draft were the most productive (perhaps because the emphasis was on building the sharks through the draft during that stretch). Anyways, have fun with that site.

cristobal-

Well, of course the same standard should be held if we compare what these guys have done. Another thing you kind of have to do is evaluate things relative to the long term goals. I think one thing that there is fundamental disagreement on is what matters. It seems like you see the team after DL took over as having slid down from a height I don’t really see us as ever having reached.

Also, some of these things are kind of ridiculous to talk about with 20/20 hindsight. Honestly, no one but their moms thought guys like Huet and Lilja and Legace, at the times the decisions to move them was made, were suddenly going to become serious players. It’s kind of like giving credit (or taking it away) for a guy winning (or losing) the lottery.

DT also had some tough luck with guys like Allison and Deadmarsh. Guys like Blake, Reinprecht and Stumple end up being better in the long run over the same period as Deadmarsh, Miller and Allison.

DL has not gotten a lot out of what he has done on the veteran side either, but there’s the difference for me. The vet issues DT had actually mattered because the team was trying to sustain some level of success. DL’s vet issues come at a time when the organization seems to have figured out one of the things that has habitually kept us from maintaining success is not biting the bullet and building a reserve of talent.

And like you have said, there does some to be an improved commitment at the end of this year to go full rebuild. It was there before, you have to admit though, in much more prominence than under the previous cycle. DL is quoted when he gets hired about the ownership opting for not the “full rebuild” plan, but for the “kinda rebuild” (my words), but there was a clear indication that the team would be changed to DL’s liking on and off the ice and he would run things on the hockey side. That included immediately trading a few quality roster players (Belanger, Gleason, Demitra) for prospects, so the emphasis on rebuilding was there.

As things stand today, the team is chok full of young talent where before we always had one or two good youngsters and a whole bunch of holes. The way the team was run, there was never going to be a backfilling, and now in a very short time we not only have some good forwards, but some good youngsters at other positions too.

So, okay, some vets were signed who haven’t done anything positive but fill in roster spots. Unless the plan is for them to contribute over the next three or four years, it doesn’t mean much to me. I think you also said something like, “a team only gets better or worse” based on a move (or group of moves). Well yeah, but what we call better or worse is the main issue there.

oooh, almost 200 posts, nice. Never seen that here before, but its awesome. Then again I’m a relative freshman to the site, so I’m sure its happened before.

Captain Material,

Again, as always, love the comments. I appreciate you having pointed out that Lombardi was trying to rebuild even when AEG was begging for the “kinda rebuild”. Goes back to what I was saying about Lombardi ‘playing’ ownership and doing what he wants while making it seem to AEG like he’s doing what they want. Then again, that’s kind of like Quisp’s point, albeit a rambuncous point, about devling too deeply into the inner workings of the minds of people we only read about, watch in broadcasted interviews and possibly meet at a Kings event; not people we truly know. But I still think we can get a sense. Platitudes for the press and smiles for the camera aside, I think it’s not too difficult to read a person on a cerebral level if you look closely. Though I know the stated word to the press indicates that DL has shifted gears since being hired, I truly think that he has been operating with the same mindset from day one, although not autonomisly; which accounts for what is percieved as a panicked change of direction into a full rebuild. From paying attention to every bit of info I can get about the guy and monitoring his interactions and movements within the club, and sometimes just reading his face, eyes and demeanor, I just constantly get the impression that the man is not, as anthony claims, simply an ego-centric dictator who acts without regard to those around him. In a sense that’s true, in that I believe he is fully intent on forcing his will through, but not only do I appreciate that, I think he does it a very clever way, totally opposite from acting without regard. I see his moves as being specifically for a purpose, trying both at once to please AEG, get what he wants, and most importantly position himself and team so that he can do what he wants, not just because he is GM, but with ownerships support! He knows he can’t sign Kopitar and Johnson to huge contracts in the same year if he signs $8-12 million away in UFA’s. He sees AEG’s limitations and willingness to spend. I believe he’s creating a cash reserve for himself so that when he needs to spend he can. Most people assume AEG told him this year “Your budget is the cap floor.” I choose to believe the opposite. The Kings have never been at the bottom of the payroll under AEG so far I know. Sure they would never spend to the limit, but just like Taylor’s regular season standings, the payroll was reasonably average. Again, please correct me if I’m wrong on this. I think Lombardi came the ownership and said, “Look, I’ve spent your money, like you wanted, on some pretty good guys like Blake, Stuart, Preissing, Nagy, Handsuz, Calder, Cloutier (all of whom were much much better in seasons past than with their recent tenure with the Kings). That got us 28th and 29th place. Let me try this. Let me do this rebuild. If you do, I’ll spend as little as possible this year. Signing Kopitar and Johnson is where your money should go, not on Jeff Finger, or even on Hossa. I’ll save you this money now, so long as we lock up our young guys now. That’s how to create a winner and get to the playoffs year in and year out.” … Yes, I know, SERIOUS speculation going on here.

However, Lombardi, not having any affinity to the Kings before, I think he approached this job with a very discerning eye. I think he knows as well as we do that AEG is cheap, and I think that his seemingly sporatic movements have been carefully done to mold this team into what he wants, all the while maintaining AEG’s trust by doing things that we all see as purely AEG ordained, such as trading Visnovsky. Certainly I don’t believe that everything he has done has been brilliant. He’s made blunders, but I do see a consistent philosophy, as well as a willingness to try a variety of things. For this, I cite the Handsuz signing, as bad as he was last season, as being wholly in tune with his schemes. Back to the ‘like-minded’ individuals. If I’m off base here please call me out on it, but from my perspective, Handsuz is oozing with character, and while he may not necessarily be a leader persay, he is definately someone to look up to. Even from afar before his days with the Kings, he always stood out to me as a player with an intense work ethic and a drive and determination, all the while not being flamboyant or flashy. Not a leader, not a mentor, but a role model. I hope for him to prove this more on the ice next season.

To be fair, the Nagy signing was a shot in the dark, something that seems abberant from other moves, but I like that he’s willing to take a shot at a guy who has always seemed better than he’s performed, always wondering if it was just a matter of him not fitting in anywhere. Didn’t work out, but oh well. I also see this as one of his ways to ‘play’ AEG. He tried to make the playoffs. He made a Taylor-esque signing in Nagy, and Handsuz, and Stuart, and Preissing (all wholly respectable and quality players for the majority of their varying careers), and look where it got us, NOWHERE!

You mention, in regards to DT’s moves, that looking back on these things is silly, referrencing the Legace trade and others as being logical at the time but ultimately seemingly stupid and shortsighted. I agree. I try and think about DL’s drafts and trades and signing with a combination of ‘at the time’ mentality and current results. Both, for me atleast, point to a man who wanted to rebuild this team fully the day he got here. I agree with Captain Material that what he inherited was shoddy at best. Some bright spots, most of which really were the afterglow of DT’s glory days of 00-02; mirages of a once good team. This I why I like DL. Even though his moves have not been all the best, I think he wanted what he has right now from day one, but he couldn’t get there right away without management calling for his head, or even not hiring him in the first place. I think he towed the line AEG wanted for 2 seasons, while putting his people, scouts and talent in place, ultimately creating a situation that allowed him to get his way by proving to AEG themselves that what THEY wanted was wrong, and what he then presented (full rebuild) was right.

The coaching is the one area I really disrespect him for because of Crawford. I hope against hope that Murray is the right man for the job, and if that’s not the case then I really don’t care what DL has done, coaching is the most important part of the game for me, and what has ultimately made us suck so bad the last several years. In conclusion, I guess, if I’ve actually managed to make a point at 4 in the morning, friggin insomniac that I am, it is my contention that this team is exactly where DL wanted it from the start. He has a long term plan, and I believe in it!

… I guess I could have just said that .

cristobal,

It’s reassuring that you can admit that after being presented with draft statistics, you “think a little more highly of Lombardi’s ability now.” I know the old argument that we got really excited about Steckel (who just got extended), Aulin, Bednar, etc, etc. That they would pan out, however I can’t help but still feel that this crop DL has accumulated in a very short time is much richer and deeper than any crop before. Part of it may be that I never was as knowledgable about the Kings prospects until I recently found this marvelous website. Part of it could be that, as you correctly pointed out earlier that in some capacity I keep my head in the sand. It could also be because it is true. I hope they are all a little true, the latter most so.

I think comparing DL’s and DT’s draft record is certainly valid, but lets not forget, in a sense Taylor is kind of where Lombardi was at 4 or 5 years ago having been a GM for a long time, doing some good, having people boo you out the door and then taking a lesser role elsewhere. I forget their exact titles at Philly and Dallas, but Lombardi has gained much experience since his days in San Jose. I can only imagine that he was doing in Philly what Taylor is doing in Dallas now; essentially gathering knowledge and honing in on more specific aspects of the game and players and what makes those players great and their hockey clubs successful. This is much easier to do after having been there, but then getting to watch without the burden of all decisions falling in your lap. I can’t honestly say I followed Lombardi in San Jose, but I highly doubt we are getting a carbon copy of the GM he was for them.

I don’t think it’s fair to assume that Lombardi’s recent picks won’t be so great simply because he hasn’t been drafting as a GM since 2002. Personally I think it’s the opposite, he’s bound to be better at it now than before. If anything, we should agree to be neutral, that his lapse in holding the title GM has nothing to do with his knowledge, instincts and ability to make judgement calls and gather intelligent support staff and scouts to decide which players are the best to go at what spots, and conversley, how to acquire players you covet at spots you don’t currently possess.

Likewise, I’m sure he learned a lot about dealing with management in San Jose, and is applying that learning here now.

An interesting stastitic would be to compare several GM’s performances with different clubs and whether they improved in terms of playoff appearances/records, wins, drafting, trades, UFA signings, etc. If I get out of jury duty early next week I’ll try to undertake some of that. I have a sneaking suspicion that GM’s tend to do better with their second teams than their first. I bet if Taylor gets another crack at GM, he’ll do a better job than he did here, ownership be damned.

I could be totally wrong, as always. Just enjoying sharing my thoughts and ramblings with other Kings fan who care to read it… because my girlfriend, who only knows the names of players she thinks are cute certainly doesn’t care to hear it! I love this respite from the world into the depths of hockey that Rich’s blog provides.

Since we’ve all been posting like lunatics, can I get a “Thanks Rich!”?

… Thanks Rich!

P.S. – I apologize in advance if anything I said was totally wrong or trivial… there’s a reason I’m up at 4 am and its not because I’m sane.

Cristobal

We’re all good buddy. I hope the job thing picks up quickly for you. It’s bad all over.

Now back to our beloved Kings

Back to Kopitar for a second and the argument whether he’s better than Malkin.
I can’t say that he’s better than Malkin, but it really doesn’t matter to me. What we have in Kopitar is a special player we haven’t had on the Kings for a looong time. I’ve said it before, he’s our Crosby. He may not be as good as Crosby, but what Crosby has done for the Pens, I think Kopitar will eventually do for the Kings. He has weaknesses in his game..ie faceoffs, defensive zone coverage….but with his talent and the effort that he gives, I’m sure that won’t take long to correct.
I have faith that DL will sign him long term and will lock up the core as well.
I’m not blind to the fact that the Kings will probably struggle again this year, but watching the kids come up and have success is more than enough to keep me interested. I’m excited to see Purcell, Boyle…guys like that getting a full season and watching their progress.
I don’t think their could be anything more exciting than watching the team be built from the ground up into a stanley cup contender.
If I’m wrong, than it will be just like the last 40 years of being a Kings fan.

JDM said: “I apologize in advance if anything I said was totally wrong or trivial… there’s a reason I’m up at 4 am and its not because I’m sane.”

I appreciate that you admit to SERIOUS speculation. Admitting it is the first step. Now, if you can just start trimming your posts from novel-length to short-story-length, all of us who don’t have an unlimited amount of time can read them and offer up a retort. …and that goes for cristobal too!

I dont think DL is anywhere near as crafty as you give him credit for. The people who work for phil are pretty smart guys. And I dont think for one second DL is trying to fool them. From the very beginning it was clear DL wanted to build a strong foundation by developing young talent; create an organization that grooms its young players into quality NHLers. We ALL love that and want that. That was and is his plan. The question is how do we get there?

For me, its WISE to have quality veteran leadership ALL of the time. At any point a young guy jumps on NHL ice for the first time, he should have a veteran there to help him along the way. Right? So unless Im missing something, we are going FAR away from that this year. Right? Isnt this approach recklessly risking our young players growth? It seems like we are relying on the new coaching staff WAY too much. If what Im saying is reasonable, then isnt it true DL has shifted gears and changed his plan in a detrimental way? Who thinks that from day one DL envisioned a super young team headed into his third season? Does that make sense?

I think the obvious answer is there has been some serious compromising on his part. DL says that, This is exactly how you manage your payroll when youre in our situation. Am I wrong in saying that we can sign anze and jack to long term deals AND have FA signings that would help the kids develop, win, and be more inclined to stay with an organization that shows it is consistently committed to winning? Wasnt that his approach last year? Wasnt this entirely possible this year? And just because last year didnt work, does that mean you give up completely? There are always adjustments to plans. Of course. But this is MORE than an adjustment, isnt it? This is a major policy shift.

The whole full rebuild thing depends on how you define it. Organizationally, there is no doubt the plan was and is to completely change the way the Kings operate. Make them into a consistent contender starting with developing young talent. One could say that approach is, in fact, a full rebuild and I would agree. And Im totally on board with that vision, DLs vision. We all want that. But when we start talking about full rebuild equals devoid of veterans and unnecessarily risking development then Im not on board.

wavesinair- I think you need to define veteran leadership- do you mean guys over 30 that have played a bunch of games, or guys who have captained/led successful teams in the past, whether it be NHL, AHL, NCAA or International and have been in the league a few years (guys like Stoll (Team Canada) and Greene (UND), both have been to the finals)?

I did a break down of the youth a while back (26 and younger; i can re-post it or you can search for it- it was back in one of the posts about blake when he left) and this team is not short of leaders and players that have succeeded at the top levels (prior to coming to the NHL). I agree that leadership is definitely a must, but, based on my analyis, I disagree that the Kings are seriously lacking in this department at this point. I won’t argue against them adding 1-2 veteran players, however, i don’t see the situation as dire. So this getss back to what do you define as veteran leadership. I think the kings have some young guys, some that have matured here and others brought in by DL, that fit the bill. Take a look back the oilers in the 80′s if you don’t believe a young talented team can develop and reach success by building with a core of young leaders (under 25).

as for this, “Who thinks that from day one DL envisioned a super young team headed into his third season? Does that make sense?: I’m not going to pretend to know what he was thinking when he started, but many of his moves seem to indicate that this was on his radar as a possibility early on (at least by the end of his first year)- stockpiling picks in this years draft, getting rid of demitra for two prospects, getting younger with Johnson over Gleason, signing short FA contracts (eg. bridge players as he put it). I could see the argument for does this make sense going either way, but at this point, it’s somewhat moot, because the reality is, like it or not, the Kings have gone with a youth movement.

oh yeah. forget lombardi or taylor, bring back GM Vachon

J – seriously disagree with only needing 1-2 veterans. We lost 4 since the trade deadline. Leadership that knows the nhl and can boss the situation is needed. Find a guy who wants to eventually coach and was a big part of a winner and bring him into the fold.

wavesinair – funny you seem to have provided a novella of your own….

Mark Smith is interesting cristobal, but at that size he should be more of a puck mover (the kind of D we need most), and his 47 assists in almost 400 games isn’t too promising. Though really I don’t know much about him. He’s a lefty though, and well know DL wants a lefty. Is he a leader in any sense, or just a guy with experience? I still say Hedican fits the bill best.

well… one less option, looks like Teppo signed back with Buffalo. http://wgr550.com/pages/2752697.php?

we need veterans, not crypt keepers. just joking. i see no reason to NOT sign Hedican and Smith. We could actually sign about 30 1 million dollar free agents.

Just a note about demanding success – I know most people hate soccer. I like to use the word they created for the game when these leagues first began over 130 years ago – football.

Anyway, Rangers Football Club yesterday went out of European Competition; meaning they won’t compete in inter-europe club competitions the Champions League or the UEFA Cup. Last year they lost in the UEFA Cup final. The domestic SPL (scottish premier league) is just about to start and they could very well win the league, but the supporters are losing their minds. Bear in mind, last year they lost the domestic league title on the last day of the season, and the UEFA Cup Final just prior. But they will not accept 2nd best. There will be player movement and possibly management turmoil.

Just think that sometimes pressure and criticism are good for success.

I thought you meant they only need 1 or 2. I do think they should have more, though. I don’t count leadership in jrs, WU20′s or 18′s, NCAA against players, I just don’t think you can expect young guys to lead if they haven’t yet. I love Brown but don’t see him as a leader, really. In terms of how he plays, yes, but whenever I’ve seen him talk I get the feeling he’s that great follower who’ll throw himself through a brick wall for ya.

I don’t see much leadership from the guys that were acquired: handzus, calder, preissing. So I’d like 3-4 solid vets, ideally. There will always be injuries and if the 3 listed guys don’t get it together, they’re just ballast. I really want to see the top young prospects go, but would leave simmonds, teubert, voinov, out of the mix this year. Boyle, Doughty, Moulsen, for certain. After that, I’m not sure. I don’t know much about Purcell besides statistics. Ellis was serviceable but will he improve, and if not, is he serviceable?

Hey, that database was awesome. Nobody mentioned the comparison I made. Maybe BBK will..

cheers

I see Smith being talked about as a defender, and just want to make sure people know he is a forward. Although his numbers go look better if they’re for a defenseman.

Leaders are leaders, doesn’t matter the level they’ve led at- you don’t stop being a leader because you’ve moved up a level. Hockey is Hockey- it’s not like the NHL is a different sport than what is played in WJC, NCAA, or the AHL.

So, if expect them to pickup a guy that has already been a leader in the NHL, is that even possible- it’s not like there’s a whole bunch of captains and assistant captains looking for work or up for trade.

You seem to be taking leadership and mentoring/teaching to be one and the same.

Cristobal, re Teubert, Voynov and Simmonds:

Unless they’re REALLY eating their Wheaties (or those radioactive vegetables that washed up in the lagoon of Gilligan’s Island) I don’t think those guys have a chance this season. Though, if they are ready, that’s what you call a “champagne problem.” I am usually the advocate of “maybe they’ll develop ahead of schedule,” but even I can’t imagine those three this year. Although, who knows, maybe Teubert is on the Denny McLean diet.

Quisp, as a veteran with accrued service time, Armstrong cannot be sent to Manchester without his approval.

JDM,

Your one hell of a class act. Being on the ignorant end of the spectrum, I listen quite intently, not only on what you say, but how you say. You let everyone state their peace, and if you disagree, you counter in a way that isn’t threatening, divisive or polarizing. Your thoughts are well thought out, you are extremely consistent, admit when your wrong, and state when your guessing and or assuming. You can’t argue with that kind of character. Alright enough of the love fest.

As great as the 80′s Olympic teams game was, we really can’t compare our team to them can we? As was stated above, there’s 84 games in a season. If we compare our selfs to that team, we’ll be 1-83. I don’t like the way that sounds.

You all know how I feel about veteran players, so I won’t get into that. But in simplistic terms I’ll define a veteran as one who understands the game, wants to share his knowledge and wants to play for the team, he’s playing for. I’ll call it the “right” leadership, and that’s simply the player who wants to help form chemistry, pride and the ability to adjust.

I’m not going to compare Kop to Malkin, because I don’t like comparing players in general. But Malkin is a fantastic player and some people have commented on how he and the Penguins didn’t play well. What I personally saw, was a group that up to that point, got it done with pure talent. Detroit bottled some of that talent, and the young kids with their lack of experience didn’t know how to ADJUST. Not that the kids did that bad, they made it to the finals, just pointing out veterans do make a difference.

A good veteran will take a young guy aside and show him how you learn from mistakes, instead of looking at the kid like they’ll never get it or let them down. I think they’ll say, basically, “i’ve been there, made mistakes, but if you get back on the bicycle you win no matter what.”

Forum or Staples?

yesitscal -
The Dome project was conceived, originally on a somewhat smaller scale, under John Major’s Conservative government, as a Festival of Britain or World’s Fair-type showcase to celebrate the third millennium. The incoming Labour government elected in 1997 under Tony Blair, greatly expanded the size, scope and funding of the project. It also significantly increased expectations of what would be delivered. Just before its opening Blair claimed the Dome would be “a triumph of confidence over cynicism, boldness over blandness, excellence over mediocrity”.[3] In the words of BBC correspondent Robert Orchard, “the Dome was to be highlighted as a glittering New Labour achievement in the next election manifesto”.

The O2 was developed, inside the dome structure, by Anschutz Entertainment Group to a design by HOK SVE and Buro Happold in a 600 million development.

-AEG is not a builder. They occupied the building and have a lease (i thought they bought it).

– They as much built the place as they’ve built a winner with the LA Kings.

yesitscal – Cristbal, you said, “There is no way to work
a trade for guys you overpay.” It is exactly for this reason that the ‘Hawks will have a lot of trouble dumping Khavebulin. It goes both ways.

– Thanks for the support, I knew I was correct. It not only applies to the Kings but to all teams and all GM’s….hmmmm

– Is your standard for a GM based on “he’s not as bad as this….?” I would have to think about who I would pick. I would like a guy like Sir Alex Furgeson.

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Cristobal, you’ve obviously been on this blog a lot longer than I have, but in the week and a half or so that I’ve known about it all I’ve seen from you is complaint after complaint about what an inept know-nothing dolt that Dean Lombardi is. So, with all this complaining, it surprises me that you’ve never even thought of who you’d have in his place. If you’re going to advocate revolution, at least have a plan for the aftermath.

yesitscal – I can find no evidence that says that AEG built the Millenium Dome. So, I don’t know. I still think its crap. AEG does not appear to own it, either, but to have a lease, though it is long. I wasn’t trying to split hairs, in fact it was you who said I was wrong and that AEG built it. Even the word ‘built’ could be split-hairs over, but I agree. Why did you bring it up?

Ferguson does know how to win, though, something you cannot say about AEG and our LA Kings. Nor do they know how to run the team as they were always reporting losses. If you want to point out the positives they add to the league, i’ll listen.

I’ve repeatedly said I would not have fired Taylor. Maybe you missed some of those, there were a lot of posts, but I’ve only been on here for 2 weeks tops so they shouldn’t be that hard for you to find.

Are you implying now that I said “lauri tukonen would win the calder?” I cannot figure that out. I could go into my arguements about tukonen again, but you could also go read my old one’s. I would really love it if he did, i don’t think its out of the realm of possibilities. It will be interesting to see who plays more games this year – Doughty or Tukonen.

captain material – thanks, i like to be considered weird by the general public. it makes me feel like a decent human being.

I could not agree more about staple vs. forum. i’ve only been to staples 4 times (1 lakers) and its inaccessible, segregates fans, and is WAY to loud with the childish stuff (cartman chanting go kings go???). I couldn’t be sure if it was the size of the building, but you definitely get the feeling you’re on the outside looking in. Whereas, at the forum, it was like being unified: supporters and team as one.

Plus, you could walk out of the tunnels and pass John Candy and say HHHEeey John, and he’d say, ‘what’s up, buddy?’ of course he didn’t know i had the emotional disorder and all…..

Anonymous, horses’ asses can be quite attractive, depending on the hourse.

I just mentioned Olympia to my parents, and my mom said she hated the seating because she was afraid she was going to FALL.

yesitscal – I can see why you’re upset. I did ‘dis’ the O2 arena. maybe you’re financially tied to it or something.

this part – The Dome project was conceived, originally on a somewhat smaller scale, under John Major’s Conservative government, as a Festival of Britain or World’s
Fair-type showcase to celebrate the third millennium – was cut and pasted directly out of wikipedia, i didn’t write it. If they are incorrect, I apologize, just went snooping. Yet you didn’t give me any proof to the contrary, rather you stated your opinion as fact.

In a shocking coincidence, if you’re correct, AEG bought two white elephants because the Kings were just out of Bankruptcy when AEG purchased, right?

One thing that doesn’t add up about Millenium Dome/02 arena controversy is this: if you’re trying to cover the proverbial ‘white elephant’ you speak of, wouln’t you build on top of the elephant rather than inside it? The Dome is still there so I don’t know how it covers up something Londoners didn’t want, and don’t want to be reminded of.

AEG and their real estate business really don’t interest me. It’s much like me talking about football and alex ferguson and you don’t care. I like the Kings, not AEG. I think that’s been one of the most obvious things about what i’ve said. As far as knowing how to win, you’re half right. They own the Houston Dynamo and i think they’ve won 2 MLS cups in a row. Kings fans might find that interesting because they were moved to Houston from San Jose (six degrees of separation) the summer before their 1st championship. Also, AEG owned half of the teams in the league up to just a few years ago and created the league, so if they couldn’t win, it’d be pretty pathetic.

As far as their real estate swindles (i mean success) i can’t argue with you. I’m no billionaire. I’m also proud to see that they’ve turned around our city providing jobs for the thousands lining skid row, customers for the 13 year old mexican heroin dealers, and funds for the protection racket that thrives in charming the downtown they so lovingly restored. The history of Los Angeles is represented well by the neon showcase of Staples. I’m also proud that the Kings could be their footstool. Come to think of it – If Phil buys everything he can bring back feudalism and he’ll really be a King.

Man do you hate Tukonen. What did he ever do to you? If he ever plays in Staples again I fear for his life.
Really, my statements about him and the calder were tongue in cheek but to answer your questions about 1/2 a point per game average, maybe we’ll find out from Trevor Lewis and Cliche. I’d ask Guliano and Zeiler, but they never reached that average.

cheers

quisp – great stories about detroit and playing there. Smoking….awesome.

I can agree wholeheartedly that the Forum was the ultimate HOCKEY stadium. Concerts can be fun there too… especially since its the only time I visit the place anymore… memories.

While I do like some things about Staples, such as, while the seats aren’t ideal, they aren’t any horribly atrocious seats that severely hinder my view like a few I got at the Forum (never really had the pleasure of sitting low at the Forum, generally I sat in the very very last row – which I admit was truly amazing). It’s definately better than the Ducks arena, which I absolutely despise on every level. Classed up colors and adornments but no less grungy… atleast the Forum knows its a trash heap and gives you the trough! Staples is nice looking, but there isn’t much of a feel to it, and I agree about it being segregated.

My favorite/most ridiculous memory is my first at Staples. If I may I think you’ll all appreciate this –
I went to one of the first games at Staples with my dad, cousin and grandfather. Big boys night out. We got low seats, maybe 10th row up just off to one side of the ice. So my dad, cousin and I are yelling and swearing and getting into the game. Cursing the refs, profane exclaims of joy, etc… you know, almost like we were watching a live hockey game.

Anyways this guy with his girlfriend in front of us kept giving us dirty looks. Finally he turns around and tells me to shut-up and stop cursing. I laughed. My cousin was on one side of me, my dad the other, and my grandpa at the far end. The guy got angry that I basically told him to buzz off and calm down, I’m just having fun.

So he yells at me, at which point my crazy cousin and his napoleon complex grits his teeth and gets in this guys face and says “Listen punk, this is a hockey game, not the freaking ballet. If you don’t like it you shouldn’t be here.” The guy proclaims he is just trying to enjoy the game with his girlfriend and that our loudness is disrupting that. They get into this big fight, the guy trying to act tough in front of his woman, and they almost take it outside. We couldn’t stop laughing that this guy got upset that we were loud at a hockey game.

I think this story really set the tone for a lot of Staples center, like Captain Material mentioned, being pretty cold and full of people you would never have seen at the great GREAT western forum. No one ever got upset no matter how loud and riled up I got at the Forum, at Staples people look at me like I’m crazy sometimes… even in the cheap seats where I typically sit.

All in all though, I’m neutral to kind of ok with Staples. I can’t honestly say I hate it, but the Forum was certainly a better place to watch a hockey game.

Cristobal -

I’m 44.

re tukonen v. doughty games played, I was thinking about this year, too. I guess I’m assuming Doughty plays the whole season with the big club and Tukonen gets in 5-10 games if he’s lucky.

Thinking about old rinks, I have fond memories of watching Michigan State games pre-74 in the old Dem Hall, which was a converted riding arena (as in horses) which had frequently been used for livestock exhibitions. The place had bats. There was chain link fence instead plexiglass and we used to love standing in the corners because when there would be a bone-crunching check you would get showered in sweat. As an eight year old, that was a big feature!

JDM – Memories that can never be relived. unless I, along with you guys of course, buy the kings and move them back. Could you imagine? I think if i bought the kings i’d change the name….maybe not. I don’t know. What would you guys do?

By the way, JDM, for crowd behavior like that is just unacceptable. You really give Angelino’s a bad name.

quisp – your name. to me it sounds like your terry crisp and people, your players, with no teeth pronounce it quisp.

Those are great memories. I wish i had them. I grew up here and have never been to a real top college game. Maybe i should make a point of making it a priority to go back east and go. I’d imagine the schools in michigan, mass. and penn. would all have great atmosphere at their games.
I played for a local college and Berkeley’s rink, at the time, had chain link around the end boards, nothing between the blue lines but the fairly low wall. The bad part was how dark it was in there, the surface and boards weren’t bad in my mind. I can’t imagine what the old rodeo building must’ve been like, but I would love to have been there.
One sports memory, non-hockey (if thats cool yesitscal) is of the 84 Olympics. My pops took me to the Boxing. I will never, hopefully, forget. Just 14 that summer, but Holyfield fought and was disqualified on a corrupt call for punching after the bell – Absolute tragedy for the young man. The atmosphere in there was crazy, though. Only boxing event ever for me (at the time i watched on tv with pops a bit) and it was mostly men, really kinda sweaty, it was just unlike anything in my experience. The Rams, that was great at the Colliseum….i’ll stop now. sorry yestical.

JDM/Cristobal –

Your exchange about what’s appropriate is reminding me of a game at the forum about ten or twelve years ago when they were doing that jumbotron thing of showing people in the crowd and they put this top-heavy woman on the big screen and she lifts up her shirt. there’s like a collective gasp and predictably cheers and mothers covering their sons’ eyes, etc.. Anybody remember that?

C’mon, guys, you all know that Cristobal has to always have the last word and, of course, be right. He’s the only one who’s allowed to exhibit any type of questionable behavior. The next time you go to a game, make sure you don’t make too much noise, sit on your hands and, for heaven’s sake, please don’t disturb the person in front of you!

well, that didn’t work. I used to love to hate terry crisp, would absolutely love to meet the guy.

Cristobal,
I don’t understand the significance of limiting the search to only players who have played at least 40 games in either the past 2 seasons. But i’ll play along with the names you listed. you added the total points of the DT and DL players listed, and then stated that those numbers support your opinion that DT is a better drafter after the 1st round. however, i don’t think aggregate points tells much other than a player may have been around longer than another. for example, a guy drafted in ’97 is likely to have more points than a guy drafted in ’92 simply because he’s played in more games.

so i looked at the points per game for the players you listed.

pts gms
Cammalleri 205 283
Visnovsky 279 499
Corvo 162 353
Kaberle 185 493
Lilja 59 398
McGrattan 10 143
Parros 11 158
Huet 3 183
——————————–
total 914 2510 = .36 pts/gm
take huet out and it’s .39 pts/gm

Ehrhoff 90 264
Clowe 44 91
D. Murray 14 135
Cheechoo 262 375
M. Samuelsson 168 385
Mark Smith 70 377
Matt Bradley 95 411
———————————
total 743 2038 = .36 pts/gm

don’t forget that DT had 2 more drafts than DL did as the SJ GM.

and to break it down another way…

total non-1st round picks and how many played +200 games

DT
76 non-1st round picks
5 players with +200 games

DL
43 non-1st round picks
5 players with +200 games

and back to 1st round picks (not counting a top 3 pick for either team since you like to point that out)…

DT
11 1st round picks
3 with +200 games

DL
5 1st round picks
3 with +200 games

subject to change as there are players for both teams approaching 200 games.

JDM – I meant that when I said, “By the way, JDM, for crowd behavior like that is just unacceptable. You really give Angelino’s a bad name.” I was being sarcastic. I hope you didn’t think I really meant it. If other fan’s don’t like passionate behavior and language, they shouldn’t go to a sporting event. They can watch from home.

Ah, gotcha cristo, my mistake… it’s really amazing, I use sarcasm constantly and yet I have trouble identifying it. I was kind of crossing my eyes like “but wait, English soccer fans are some of the craziest, most obnoxious fans in the world!” Haha. When I was in London on the underground there would be huge groups of drunken loons signing in the cars at the top of their lungs… catchy tunes, sung in garbled cockney speak.

And yes, they can, and should, watch from home. Sometimes I make exceptions for children, because I do love watching little dudes get into the game… but only sometimes.

JDM – Sarcasm and humor (poor attempts at humor from me) can often go completely unrecognized in this type of communication. Especiallly because we don’t really know the personalities of the people we’re communicating with well. I did think you might get it being that I had recommended that book “among the thugs.” Its funny your experience in the tube station because that is exactly how the book opens. He is so fascinated by the mob behavior and its acceptance by the other passengers that he, being a journalist, dives into. Its quite fascinating really.

real busy today, talk to you soon, maybe later, though.

cheers

BBK – i’ll try to be concise with my theory.

first – i think that looking for 40+ games over the last 2 seasons will find players that are still relevant. for instance, niko dimitrakos has over 200 games but is out of the nhl.

second – where you’re drafted just means that’s what the scouts placed your prospective level of success. Like a Jonathan Cheechoo (50 goal scorer) in the second round I consider a great pick.

third – the first round, while averaging the most players that stick in the nhl for a career, is rarely sure fire after the first 3-5. I could be wrong and there is probably a specific average, but off the top of my head i would think its somewhere near there. maybe its actually closer to 10???

four – i believe that the players in Taylors resume, after the 2nd round, show that he got more quality in the later rounds, even if they have yet to reach 200 games, they’re still working.

five – i don’t think the difference in years drafting (five vs. 7) is too relevant because they are closest on the time line and none of the players on my list come from those 2 years after Lombardi was fired.

six – with all due respect, your number of 200 was kind of random as well and, i think, suggested by someone else. If you agree that 200 games is a better gauge I am open to listening to the reasoning.

seven – first round picks must be judged differently and we could go into a whole other world with it. i’m game.

cheers

Wavesinair- I thought I understood your definition of vet leadership (guys with a fair amount of NHL experience, apparently regardless of whether or nor they are good teachers or good influences) until you went and changed it when you got to the current roster. How can Cammalleri and Kostopolous be vet leaders and Stoll and Greene not?
Stoll and Greene don’t have much less regular season experience than those guys, and they’ve been to the finals, which the others haven’t. Hell, Cammalleri’s never even been to the playoffs, nor had Kos when he was in L.A. Also, Brown’s played like 15 less games than Cammalleri, but you don’t count him?

If you’re going to count the likes of Straka and some of those others, don’t just throw out Armstrong because of your obvious dislike of him- other players and coaches speak highly of his hockey smarts and they know a heck of a lot more about the game than you or I. You’ve also gotta count Preissing and Gauthier, cus they’ve both put in time comprable to the guys you listed.

So really, by extending your definition, the Kings are not so much in need of leadership (possibly), but rather mentors. How many do you think are needed? If you count Armstrong, Gauth, and Preissing, which should certainly fit if some of the players you listed do, that gives the Kings 6 (7 if you count Brown) vets to mentor the kids. Saying you want to have a vet-to-line/d-pair ratio of 1-to-1, which seems reasonable given the roster size limit and the desire to develop some youngsters this year, then the Kings need to have 7, perhaps 8 as a spare.

Getting back to the available space on the roster (not sure what you mean by this being a “kitchen sink” point beyond blowing it off and saying its not valid), as Quisp broke it down, and perhaps you missed this, there is not space for more than 1-2 vets (all that would be needed to meet the ratio above) unless you cut time from a younster. No need to really debate meaningful icetime- in this situation, you’ve got the youth sitting out games (= 0 ice time); might as well just put them in Manchester.

Anyways, got to cut- i just realized it’s almost 2 and i’ve got a game at 8 A.M. I agree they need vets to serve as mentors, but i still don’t see it being as dire a situation as some are making it out to be.
What really matters IMO is not having an abundance of adequate mentors, it’s having an adequate number of excellent mentors. I have absolutley no personal knowledge on who fits that bill, on the kings or on any team in the league, so i’ll leave it at that.

BTW- I didn’t HAVE to go back to the 80′s to pick a team; i just picked a team that I see some parrallels in with the Kings youth- i guess i just dated myself a little, huh.

I was curious how the average ages of teams in the league stacked up. I figured the Kings would be the youngest, what’s interesting is they are by a full year. What’s more interesting to me though, is that the Penguins are closer to the middle of the pack than I thought, and some teams that sucks almost as bad as we have some of the oldest teams, like the Islanders and Thrashers. Don’t know how much any of this means but thought you might find it interesting. All 30 teams listing from youngest to oldest.

Average Age (as of what each website lists are current roster – anywhere from 18 to 30 players – so these will obviously fluctuate after training camps)

Kings – 25
Coyotes – 26.15
Oilers – 26.32
Canadiens – 26.41
Hawks – 26.47
Rangers – 26.68
Jackets – 26.88
Wild – 27.04
Penguins – 27.26
Flyers – 27.27
Blues – 27.37
Leafs – 27.6
Predators – 27.63
Bruins – 27.65
Senators – 27.67
Canucks – 27.7
Sabres – 27.75
Capitals – 27.8
Sharks – 27.83
Lightning – 27.9
Avalanche – 27.92
Panthers – 27.95
Stars – 28.08
Islanders – 28.36
Flames – 28.5
Hurricanes – 28.54
Thrashers – 28.57
Wings – 29.07
Ducks – 29.5
Devils – 29.56

Its a good point that Stoll has Stanley Cup Finals experience. I tend to forget that when thinking Stoll. He was a good leader among a good group of young leaders. It seemed he and pisani and greene, not to mention moreau and Horcoff all did a great job of sharing the load. I also didn’t realize gauthier had so many games. if he can be a good leader on the defense because of his experience, it could change things a lot in terms of confidence. Plus, with his tendency to be a little nasy himself, there’s no need to rush in a teubert before he fills out a little more.

I love this thread. I dont want it to die. Lets get to 300 without cristobal.

J, thanks for the response. I can see you gave it some serious thought. And I get what youre saying but I feel you missed my underlying point. My definition is not just based on just numbers, as you seem to use as your only criteria. So yes, according to your stats, we have 7 vets to mentor the kids. According to my definition we still only have 3.

As I said, smarts, cunning, resilience matter. I think mentoring is a good thing, but that goes beyond my definition of the kind of players we lack. As long as he knows the league, is sharp, is nobodys fool, and is tough, then thats what matters to me. These are intangibles. You cant categorize them. They are much more subtle, and I think much more interesting criteria than this guy played x number of games so you have to include him. No I dont. And we can agree to disagree on them but I dont think you should discount intangibles just because you dont have personal knowledge and you havent sat in on meetings and practices and dont know the players personally. That takes away so much of what makes hockey fun to be a fan of. Its not just wild speculation. Its studying human behavior, something I know a little about.

The guys I mentioned were already HERE, established on the team (some more or less and I added some obviously as hyperbole.) Knowing the team, having been here, matters to me. Stoll and Greene are not such established players that they can walk on a team and command instant respect. Cammalleri and Kostopolous (and others) would have had a huge advantage over them having been part of the building process for x number of years. Well see how the new guys fit in. I hope they do. But no, they dont fit the bill to start this season for me. Maybe by next year, but not now.

Yes I happily put Cammallari ahead of Brown. Based on my impressions, Cammy was way ahead of Brown in smarts and maturity. Cammy would have been the clear leader of this team this year if he stayed. Hes that kind of guy and we blew it. Arbitration ruined it. People said he was a selfish player and I couldnt disagree more. I think hell have a fantastic year in Calgary. Yet another guy who leaves the Kings and has a stellar career. Well see.

And no, I dont include Preissing or Denis Gauthier. Denis spent all of last year in the AHL and he just got here. He hardly fits the bill. And Preissing, he has the experience, and hes been here a year, but he lacks the resiliency or grit and Im not sold on his smarts. But mainly, Ive seen him get pushed around way too much to include him. Face washing without retaliation is not my kind of defenseman.

Don’t just throw out Armstrong because of your obvious dislike of him. On the contrary, I like Army, he seems like a very cool guy. He has experience, hes very resilient and tough, but to be blunt, every time Ive seen him interviewed, he doesnt sound very smart at all. And his play on the ice has proved that over and over again for me. He has poor ice vision. Do you think he makes smart plays most of the time? Ive never heard anyone say Army has great hockey smarts and theyre certainly not going to say that he doesnt in public. Many compliments during interviews are just smoke blowing after a leading question by the interviewer. We have to decide ourselves by watching and listening, not looking up a number on hockey db.

Kitchen sink just meant piling on. Supporting your argument with everything but the kitchen sink. Your point wasnt supported in that particular post. I did miss Quisps post so maybe you were dovetailing off that and it was supported prior. No need to really debate meaningful ice time. Ok. I just think you can have meaningful ice time in Manchester depending on who it is and for how long. I also think practicing with the big club is meaningful ice time and getting game time here and there with injuries or slumps. But you can dismiss that as irrelevant if you choose.

Thanks JDM for doing that math. I didnt realize our team was a full year younger either. That particular number, along with my assessment of the team as it stands today, does lead me to believe we are in a dire situation this year. There are, of course, so many other factors that will bear all of this out, but as Ive said before, it seems reckless to me to risk the development of our young guys in this way.

Cristobal, if you knew anything about online advertising, which I do, you would know inflated numbers are not a good thing and will come back to bite you. So besides being rude, your posting behavior can actually have a negative effect on the blog. I didn’t force you to enjoy it with your coffee. Cute. I said nothing of the content. It’s called etiquette, something that you very obviously lack. Youve been here two weeks, so let me tell you again. What youre doing is not ok newbie. Hopefully others will speak up when this happens on a regular basis, if not, oh well.

wavesinair – i haven’t read the etiquette rules for this site anywhere. i’ll be glad to abide by them if you point them out to me.
300 posts without me??? show me where this site has 200 without me. by the way, its august.
i know nothing about sales. if rich asks me to leave, i’d be glad to oblige. if i were an advertiser, however, i’d look for bloated numbers in the posts. like i said, go look at the daily news blogs for the lakers and usc football, there’s nothing. where would you prefer to advertise?
finally, if you just can’t stand me, don’t read my posts. its simple.

yestical – sorry to not catch your question about forum acoustics until just now. The last concert I attended there was a Muse show almost 2 years ago now. The acoustics were great, improved from 10 or so years ago, but then again, I’ve seen Muse several times and they sound better than everyone else regardless of the venue, so who knows if it was more them or more the acoustics. Either way, the forum CAN sound pretty darn good.

J and wavesinair, one thing you both seem to agree on is discounting Gauthier because he played in the AHL last year. True, but Klemm spent most of his time in Manchester and was a bright spot when called up. If Gauthier performs anything like Klemm I’ll be happy. From my understanding, because of Gauthier’s contract, part of his ‘demotion’ was cap motivated, not purely talent, or lack there of. Cheaper to have Lasse Kukkonen play 50 some odd games.

wavesinair – I totally disagree when you discount a player’s collegiate, junior and minor league acheivements. Scoring and talent level may shift when a jump to the NHL is made for sure, happens constantly. However, leadership qualities, fire in the belly, hunger to win, ability to lead, these things, the ‘intangibles’ you talk about, do not simply vanish because everyone on the ice is bigger and faster. In fact, in a true competitor, these things only fuel that fire. I’m not saying our defense will be amazing, but that I almost get the sense that people worry they will be running around like chickens with their heads cut off. I think this is where that solidarity in leadership skills DL has aqcuired will ‘surprise’ everyone the most. Sure, they will get beat…a lot most likely, but personally I think they will be a much more ‘composed’ defense. Last year, Crawford had his head up his butt, freaking out Vis by putting him on the wrong half of the ice. Modry is a great personal mentor (as touched on by JJ), but no TEAM leader, I love Stuart, but again, not a leader. I don’t know if Gauthier is a leader, but I know Greene is, Doughty is, Hickey is, Tuebert is, the guys coming through the pipeline are mostly all leaders. Don’t talk about how important intangibles are, but discredit a players intangibles just because they haven’t proven it at this level yet(heavily paraphrasing your last few posts).

Also, as far as players sounding smart in interviews, while I agree with you that it is fun and important to judge character based on what you read in a person’s eyes or tone of voice, I don’t think them have “smarts outside of hockey” means all that much to their hockey game… let’s remember, these guys spend their lives having their brains rattled. It’s nice hearing someone who can speak eloquently like Kopitar. However, a guy like Brown has proven to be a leader on the ice and in the locker room, has shown ample hockey smarts, both offensive and defensive awareness, and great vision. But when I first met him his first year on the team at a signing event, he seemed to speak less English than the foreigners on the team! I thought he was a dolt. I’m sure really he was just nervous, and has probably gotten better about public appearances since. Talking to a microphone or a fan or a reporter is a skill most of these guys don’t really learn until they get close to this level, it isn’t part of their training routine or a side dish with their wheaties. Not everyone speaks well in public or with a camera in their face, I don’t think this is a fair mark of intelligence.

As far as the age of the Kings in relation to the league goes, the more I think about it, I’m excited that we will have such a young team. That average will get younger if Bernier and/or Doughty makes the team, or maybe a little older if we sign Hedican or Carney. Either way, seeing how young the Canadiens were was really encouraging. Ultimately, I think breaking down all that math did was prove for me that age isn’t really all that big of a factor in and off itself. Obviously it has nothing to do with NHL experience, there are 33 year olds with less than 300 games on some teams and 25 year olds with almost 500 on others. It’s interesting to debate though.

Re: Double – triple posting, etc. Doesn’t bother me. I know sometimes I do it because I write something, then someone responds, so I type out my response which takes a few minutes and then when I send it and refresh, I see someone ELSE has responded just after the first response… so I respond to that that, and there you go, double post without meaning to or ‘forgetting’ any thoughts. Other times, I literally just forget to say something I meant to say, and instead of waiting until someone else posts, which usually means I will have forgotten or the point will now be off-topic, I just quickly punch it in. I understand how inflated hits can be a detriment in the crazy world of internet advertising, but I don’t think it’s a problem here, the numbers are not inflated, because as we all know, tons of people frequent this site regularly and post regularly. Sure, there may be an inordinant amount of cristobal posts, but there are certainly MANY others to go along with it. If he were one of 2 or 3 people in the entire thread and there were 100+ posts, then perhaps that inflation issue might come to bear something, so while there is validity in the argument, I don’t see it as applicable here. If double posts just bug you on a visceral level… erm… oh well, it’s just black characters against a white background.

Back to the ‘topic,’ if there still is one, I am starting to worry about getting Stoll and O’Sullivan signed. Not concerned too much with Richardson. I have been very positive and still am, but this week and the next if we don’t hear anything then I will start worrying. Crunch time is approaching. I like DL’s record and imprint in SJ, however the Nabakov hold-out keeps coming up in my mind. I don’t want to see that with one, let alone two key players. This teams needs to be together and moving forward from training camp on without looking back.

I did have a dream last night that I punched Dean Lombardi in the face… don’t remember why though… hmmmm….

300 posts here we come, ALL ABOARD!

I can dig the metaphor. If anything maybe we can agree that neither scenario is a guarantee and that ultimately its up to the individual. Maybe its unfair to expect or doubt too much.

I don’t think its a given that inexperience is enough to induce ‘shellshock’ as it were. I think such syndromes are more likely in overthinkers and big egos. With the right attitude I think a young player can on his own pull himself together. Vet leadership helps for sure, and we no doubt could use one more vet on defense. I think my main contention is that there is more character on this team than some give credit for, much of it unproven, but as wavesinair mentioned about looking into a persons eyes and seeing what kind of person they are, I get a good feeling from our young players. I don’t see too many wide-eyed fish out of water types. Especially in Doughty I see a level of character and calmness that will allow him to transition very smoothly all on his own into the NHL.

As usual though, all just speculation.

St. Louis is a good comparison in some ways. I’d think losing Tkakuck (could never spell that name) hurt the Blues in the leadership dept more than Cammy will hurt us.

Their aggressive play is a testament to good coaching. Sadly… they still really stink, so hopefully we aren’t too much like them.

Erik Johnson does seem to have a bit of an edge over JJ. I still like our depth more, though the Blues have some great prospects. I think our goalie potential is far better, I’m fine with Doughty, Hickey and JJ even though they have E Johsnon and Pietrangelo. I also prefer Kopitar way over Brad Boyes.

Also, I should retract that Tkachuk statement, I had it in my head that he was gone for more just the end of a season.

Well, personally, ever since I was 15 I have had no issues in any walk of life standing up to a person of any age. I really think age is in large part all in our heads and our own interpration and importance we place on it. I know it’s not professional sports, but I’ve had several jobs in intimidating environments with people twice my age, or even younger but much more successful than me (if anything the latter is much more scary to me). Then again I spent a lot of my youth with adults and not people my own age. I really think it comes down to the individual. This is why Voinov, who I’m not saying is ready, has an advantage. He’s been playing with men for the last few years, so that aspect of the NHL shouldn’t faze a guy like him as much. Maturity-wise I bet he’s ready, but he needs to spend a season or two adjusting to North American hockey. And there’s the key word, maturity. 18 year olds can be very mature, and top athletetic prospects tend to be when they’ve had pressure to succeed on them for years and years.

Why is that a 16 year old can go into the Olympics and beat people twice their age? I know we are talking totally different activities/sports here, but I’m just trying to drown out this notion that age itself is working against the Kings. If anything, I think the plethora of youth will feed off each other, as opposed to a 20 year stepping onto a team that is mostly 26 or 27 and up. I would think that in such a case a player could just as easily feel very small and intimidated. At least with all the youth together, they can rally around the fact that they are all young guns.

Dare I go there… yes I dare.

Tukonen would only be a fair comparison at the time of his draft. If Voinov were to not show signs of being able to translate his game and style of play to North American hockey in the next several years, then a comparison to Tukonen in his current incarnation would be fair.

Beaten till I surrender… mentally yes, minus the surrendering, but no, not physically. As lame as it is, golf is the only sport (game) I have rigorously played and practice constistently in life. I do like the words you chose though, maimed and such. Your points are valid, but I just can’t bring myself to think it is nearly all-pervasive. I think this is one issue where the middle is the only correct place to be. Depends on the player, his skill, his mentality, his experience, etc. and to generalize either way that ‘youth is not important,’ as I kind of have been and ‘youth is a detriment’ is false.

And those two words, speed and violence, you used to describe hockey is why its the only sport I really follow. I love talent, but when mixed with those other two its just a perfect storm of a sport.

JDM, thanks for your thoughts on the Forum’s acoustics. They must have improved them from years ago because they used to be awful.

I wouldn’t worry about O’Sullivan. The fact that there’s no news, to my mind, is good news because it doesn’t do either side well to bargain through the media. It got Camalleri traded, after all, because he wanted crazy money.

The time to panic will be when training camp is here and O’Sullivan isn’t, but so far we haven’t heard anything from him demanding to be traded because he feels the Kings are lowballing him. How much is a player with one good season behind him worth???

yesitscal – “Really, I think that some people should spend less time blogging and more time looking for a job so that people like you and me don’t have to support them with our taxpayer dollars.”

That absolutely takes the cake. The thought that you are paying for me and that I’m living off your tax dollars is precious. Talk about insulting other commentors and seeking attention with inciteful comments (nice word you made up btw). yesitscal, you just cannot help yourself, can you? I also love how you get so upset by someone you don’t even know because of their opinions about a hockey team and stride the blast of our wrecked economy and lack of moral fiber. I bet you throw around some mean racial epithets as well.

cheers

JDM – Let’s make 400 a good one.

I thought O’Sullivan was looking for a short-term contract, or was that the Kings who wanted a shorter term at more money, or is that just people on her speculating? I think the problem with locking people into long-term contracts is that the other players will be negotiating off that when their time comes. Kopitar will ask for more, which I think he rightfully deserves, and then I hope the Kings lock Frolov up, too, but if the young guys now, Johnson, Boyle, Tewbert, Bernier, etc., are all as good as touted, you can’t be extending everybody for five, six, seven years because they had a better year than the next guy. Also, I still believe that the cap has to come down someday, and when it does there will be other teams who have their nose right up against the ceiling who are going to be hving to dump some very good players who the Kings could be interested in at that time.

I do think that you’re comparing apples and oranges, though, since Green and O’Sullivan play two different positions. The Caps are going to have a problem pretty soon if Semin wants big money because then I think they’ll have three players eating up a very large chunk of their cap space.

ha… very true. Trust me I understand the desire for verbal sparring. I think I’m just waiting for a meaty response from wavesinair, quisp or J, etc. where’d ya’ll go? Keep the thread rockin boys, or is the dream over…

Like I said, I want to posting on stories like “Stoll signed for 4 years,” or “Sully locked up until UFA years,” or the best yet to come, “Training camp opens!”

I do think that once the Kings start winning and winning regularly that AEG will loosen the pursestrings on the budget, provided the cap hasn’t fallen by then. Kings should do all they can to re-sign Frolov. He’s been here, what, five years and has certainly won the respect of the fans and his peers. He’s good on the puck, but I wish he’d shoot more often, and not the wrap-arounds he loves so much.

Guys are always going to be coming off the books, but teams are going to have to stagger term effectively or else, like the Ducks will after this season, they could see multiple players whose contracts are up at once.

I tried registering, but never did get the confirmation E-mail, and it hasn’t shown up in my junk mail folder. Don’t want to keep trying to register multiple times, so I’m just letting it be for now. In any case, this blog really isn’t life or death for me, like it seems to be with others I see here. I thought it would be entertaining when I first found it, which it is, but some of the posts just get you wondering sometimes. People can’t let things drop and always have to have the last word, and nobody is more right than some of them, too.

I agree with you on most of those points yestical. I can see the logic in not wanting to lock Sully up long term, but I still hope to see him signed for atleast 3 years. My reasoning is to get him under contract for long enough for the team to show real improvement. We hope to see it next season if not this season, but I think 3 years is more likely to see a real playoff push or run. I guess the benefit is that even on a two-year deal he’d be RFA status still at the end of it. Except then he’d be arbitration eligible.

Didn’t mean to suggest you were dumb or anything not to register. I remember having read someone asking why their posts took so long to show up, forgot who, so in case it was you thought I’d point it out.

I’m glad the Ducks are gonna be in a tight spot next summer. . But that is a valid concern certainly.

You’ll be glad Frolov does those wrap arounds when he starts hitting them. I figure its only a matter of time. By all means he should score 40 goals a year. So skilled, our second line will take a huge beating if we lost Frolov. No one in the system who really plays like he does. As Datsyuk proved, danglers are invaluable.

JDM – Hey, i just wanted to say I appreciate the times you supported me against the attacks and that I hope I haven’t ruined the site for you. I probably shouldn’t respond to many of the posts, as I realize most people are fookin’ ignorant, but I like to call them out. Anyway, I hope I haven’t turned you off, or J or quisp, you guys are all quality, and I can differentiate between a person with a brain, and an uneducated yokel that just gets excited when they feel they insulted someone.

cheers guys

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