Lombardi’s warning

There’s a good article in today’s “Sporting News Today” — the new online newspaper/magazine — by Craig Custance about Dean Lombardi and the Kings’ efforts to build the team and retain young players. In the article, Lombardi talks about his desire to sign Anze Kopitar and Jack Johnson to extensions. It’s definitely worth a read, but I think you need to sign up for the (free) service to read it.

Craig also did a blog item in which he talks about his conversation with Lombardi and includes this quote regarding the possibility that teams might pursue future restricted free agents such as Kopitar and Johnson.

“We’re not only going to match any offer sheet, we’ll have enough space to go after your guys. Go ahead and make our day. If you sign our guy, we’re coming back with both barrels firing. You’d better be damn straight that you have the cap space and all your guys are signed.”

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  • yesitscal

    yes, this is exactly why the Kings are staying closer to the salary cap floor this season. Not only Kopitar and Johnson, but I believe Frolov’s contract will need work in the next year or two. Go, Kings!

  • Model 62

    So far Lombardi has said all the right things about signing the young core of the team to long term deals. But, except for Dustin Brown, he hasn’t signed any of them up.

    Less talk about signing, please, and more signing.

  • nykingfan

    Way to go DL. Fire the warning shot over the bow of other GM’s like Kevin Lowe and Sather.
    Maybe now it will make sense to the DL bashers…although probably not.

  • Brian Sketch

    I just suscribed to the Sporting News Today online magazine but I cannot find the article. Is it in the Aug. 6th edition? I went page by page & also used the authors name in the search. Can someone help? Thank you.

  • SoCalKing

    I am sure other GM’s are really worried about Lombardi considering he has done little since he has been here to instill fear. It makes me laugh to see a GM make a threat based on nothing to back it up. The ownership group won’t even give him enough money to buy furniture for his office much less go after someone else’s players. Another bunch of talk from a GM who is all talk and no chops.

  • anthony

    I admire Lombardi’s commitment to keeping his young players. I really do.
    I also believe that he shouldn’t be making the same mistake that he’s doing with O’Sullivan. Waiting too long to discuss contract extension.
    George Mcphee and Brian Burke feared the same. So they ended up signing Ovechkin and Mike Green (Wash.) and Perry and Getzlaf before other teams had a chance to make them offers.
    And what if Sully only signs a 1 or 2 year contract with LA, then DL has to sign 3 players to big money.
    He might actually not have enough room under the cap to keep them all.
    Don’t forget, he still has to sign Frolov, Boyle, Purcell, Moulson, and entry level free agents.

    I still believe that this GM is too arrogant and cocky. He doesn’t like others not agreeing with him, which explains the difficulty he’s having signing Sully and Stoll. He’s completely fixated to his own agenda and that’s not open for discussion or compromise. His way or the highway.

    I’m sure he’ll do whatever it takes to keep his core of young players. That is of course he sticks around long enough as GM.
    I’ll be keeping my fingers crossed that things go well..

  • http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/ccustance.tsn/162204/ paul

    here is the link

  • Anonymous

    I agree with Model 62. Let’s get POS locked up.

  • yesitscal

    In a perfect world, though, other teams wouldn’t have the chance to tender offer sheets because the Kings will have locked up the players they definitely want to hold on to before they become RFA’s.

  • mrbrett7

    This is great news…Kevin Lowe, you listening?

  • andre norway

    no comment from anthony yet?? is he sick??? great saying by DL, he shows he really mean business and thats so great to read. He is gonna sign kopi and JJ next season to looooooooooong term contracts and stanley is coming home, is coming home, is coming home, stanley is coming home:-)))

  • cristobal

    This is meaningless to the other GM’s in the league and intended solely to help Lombardi sell his lack of movement. Lombardi needs to just keep his trap shut and do his job. The only warnings he should be issuing are to the ownership if he decides to go after more free-agent signings. Other GM’s in the league know the rules and this pathetic rhetoric is no more than a smoke-screen similar to his ‘now we’re rebuilding even though i promised progress within 3 years of taking over.’

    If Lombardi wants to make trades and move draft picks around, he has to show respect to the other GM’s around the league. If he doesn’t want them coming after guys he wants to keep, don’t let them get to RFA status or worse. Like Model 62 said, shut up and sign them, you have plenty of cap space. Besides, the other GM’s may not be the ones that come offering money, it could be Russia. They must be eyeing Kopitar, I’m sure.

  • Harry
  • wavesinair

    Wavesinair’s Warning

    DL’s fighting for his job. He sure is a good salesman, but I’m not buying. I like his fire, but he’s already admitting this year is lost. Yet another lost year for the Kings and we haven’t even played a game yet! The DL PLAN may work in the long run (42 years, 43 years, 44 years?) but he probably won’t be around to enjoy it a-la san jose.

    Jump ahead to ’09… AEG: “Thanks for trying dean, but sorry, we’re still losing and you’ve been here for 3 years and we’re worse.” DL: “NO!! We’ll be better, I promise. Our young guys are just about to hit their stride.” AEG: “Yeah, we know, but someone’s head has to roll. Sorry!”

    Sketchy: It was confusing, but I finally found the article. It’s actually in the august 2nd edition. How do you get to aug. 2nd? It’s not easy! You have to do a search for lombardi and make sure you search in “ALL” …it’s very buggy and weird, but I liked the article.

  • anthony

    Yeah Cristobal,
    I’m sure the other GM’s are all shaking in their snake skin shoes and having nightmares.

    They must all be terrified of a GM whose team has finished 28th and 29th in his 2 years as GM.

  • anthony

    Give me the double barrel gun DL.
    Let me do the shooting for you.

  • Baumgartner22

    here’s the link to the other article…which was a little difficult for me to track down, so i hope this saves the rest of you time…

    http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20080802/?sub_id=BapIH1CBY5OvB

  • Baumgartner22

    continued…click on CONTENTS link and then click on HOCKEY and it should bring you to the lombardi article.

  • wavesinair

    Baumgartner, not the article and not the way to find it. Here’s the link if it works: http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20080802/?pg=24&search=lombardi&per_page=5&results_page=1&doc_id=-1

  • anthony

    I love wavesinair.
    He’s my kind of Kings fan.

  • mrbrett7

    Guys, think about this for about 1 minute, and you will understand what he is doing.

    This is a DIRECT negotiation tactict with O’Sullivan’s agent who is probably threatening to sign an offer sheet elsewhere, and Lombardi is basically saying, go for it, he will match, AND go after any and every player that team has available now, and in the future, because that team DOES NOT have the cap space, period.

    I really do not understand why nobody “get’s it”. Yes, it’s sucks that the Kings suck, and will for another year or two, but this is the price you must pay to actually build the team the right way for the first time in the franchises 40+ year history. If you don’t have the patience for that, may I suggest golf?

  • EJ

    I’m sure Dean isn’t the least bit interested in the hysterical rantings of you 12-year-olds, who can’t see any further than your lunch money and stained undies. Shut up and let him do his job, at his pace, as he sees fit.

    Don’t be surprised when everyone is signed and all is well come training camp.

  • anthony

    Mrbrett7
    All the more reason that DL is out of touch with the system.
    If other teams are offering Sully more money (which I’m sure is reasonable), it only shows that he’s worth it and that they admire his talent and potential.

    If he’s going to match it anyway, DL should sign Sully for the amount being offered by that team.
    But that would only bruise this mans ego. He’d rather fire people than do that.

  • voice of reason

    Ok Anthony, we get it. Seriously, we understand. DL sucks at everything, particularly his current job as GM of the Kings. You have made that point more than clear.

    Anything new you might care to add to the discussion?

  • cristobal

    mrbrett and Ej – How is a veiled threat to operate out of spite part of Lombardi’s job? If he’s to the point where he has to operate this way with O’Sullivan, who has only had 1 average year so far, than we’re in a worse boat than we were with Cammalleri.

    If Lombardi were concerned with operating the team the right way Denis Gauthier would not be about to earn double what Anze Kopitar will for the season; Tom Preissing and Kyle Calder would not be about to earn triple what Anze Kopitar will earn for the upcoming season; F-ing DAN CLOUTIER is set to earn more this season than Anze Kopitar.

    And if Lombardi wants the other GM’s in the league to take note, why is he publishing this article in a place where nobody can even find it? The Hockey News is what hockey people read.

  • Duckhunter

    Alright DL, it’s time to walk the walk!

  • anthony

    Voice of Reason.
    There are a couple others on this site who don’t have DL on their Christmas list either. Not just me.
    Carefully read some of the other threads too.
    It doesn’t make us any less of a Kings fan.
    You, me, and the rest of us have that in common.
    Cheers Sir.

  • yesitscal

    Anthony, who has offered O’Sullivan more money than the Kings? You make this assertion, so let’s here the teams, my friend! If you’re so much in the know, please enlighten the rest of us!

    Cristobal, you’re obviously a novice hockey fan, like in the past six weeks or something. There’s a rookie salary cap in place and teams can only sign players to a certain amount for the first three years of their contracts. This is why Calder and Preissing make more money. Duh!

  • wavesinair

    Brett,

    Im picking up what youre putting down, but you are neglecting to factor in a GIANT variable: AEG. Dont get me wrong, I like DL. Ive always said that. Hes doing all he can within the narrow framework he has to operate and at the same time trying to keep his job.

    The major problem, IMO, is ownership. All of us want the Kings to win, but AEG is not willing to take another risk this year and scoop up bridge players. Without a full commitment from the owner, were doomed. We could have a good team this year.

    My question to you is, why are you so sure its going to work this time? We built a great team 15 years ago. We had a great team in 2001. Was that not the right way to do it? Did the hated ducks do it the wrong way? My patience ran out last year. I want results NOW. Anshutz sucks.

    Why is he publishing this article in a place where nobody can even find it? Thats hysterical! It is obscure isn’t it? Im sure hes just throwing a bone Craigs way.

    Dean, call Rich and give him a big scoop. He deserves it!

  • Anonymous

    Cristobal, your point about players making more than Kopitar doesnt make sense. Kopitar is on an entry level contract. There is a cap on those. Last season Brian Pothier made more than Ovechkin. Its clear you dont know what you’re talking about.

  • cristobal

    yesitscal – how much is crosby making this year? answer – 8.7 million. I am a rookie to the salary cap and know nothing of a rookie salary cap. As for hockey, if you think i’m a novice, that’s up to you; but i can tell you i remember peter praijsler and the failure of mikko makela.

  • Matt R

    Forgive me if this has been asked and answered, but, what happens if a team doesn’t make the cap floor by the seasons start? I’m sure DL will take care of that, I’m just curious. Is that simply not an option? A poverty tax perhaps (can’t call it a luxury tax)?

  • Irish Pat

    This isn’t magic and these players aren’t attached to the Kings via serfdom. It’s a business. For anyone deriding Lombardi for not locking these kids up to long term contracts, just remember that the negotiations are a two-way street. I’m sure if anyone asked Jack Johnson whether or not he would prefer to sign a contract now or at the end of this upcoming season he would most likely rather wait to insure a better contract offer after his sophomore effort. Kudos to Dean Lombardi for barking at other GMs that may attempt to sign our kids.

  • nykingfan

    Anthony and Cristobal you may want to read the complete article.
    Is it worth it for some team to go after Sully? He has already stated that he will match the offer and can bury the team because of the limited cap space the teams that would have interest in Sully have left.
    Sully’s a real nice player, but how valuable is he to another team if it means that the Kings can break up their core?
    Also under the cap system, when the Kings do tie up their core players long term and are competing for the cup, you need room under the cap to sign a potential high end free agent or pick one up at the deadline to make the push. If you fill up your cap by overpaying for Sully, Kopitar, JJ, etc there will be no room left to get those key additions you always need.

    DL understands that the way to operate under a cap system is to get your guys signed to as cheap a contract that is possible. The Kings know they will have to pay for their core, they don’t want to have to overpay for their core. Sometimes that can be accomplished by giving them the security of a long term contract as opposed to getting larger annual salary..as they did with Dustin Brown.

    The only argument left is that it’s all a bluff and DL will never be able to get the ok to move towards the cap ceiling while working under AEG.
    That’s an assumption by everyone, not a fact. While we all thing AEG is cheap, nobody has ever factually stated that’s the way it will be.

    Think about it for a minute…If this was the case, why does DL stick around? The guy has been a successful GM in the league for long enough. He can get another job in this league without a problem. Whats his motivation for staying?

  • me

    Crosby is no longer on his entry-level contract. He’s been in the league three years already. Kopitar is just starting his third year. Kopitar was signed by Taylor to the rookie maximum with no bonuses. Other rookies make more because of bonuses, not because of base salary. If you really have a problem with players making more than Kopitar, look no further than JMFJ. His cap hit is almost double Kopitar’s also, and his contract was signed by Lombardi AFTER Kopitar had shown his stuff for almost one year.

  • voice of reason

    Anthony the difference is you cherry pick quotes to fit your argument. You have spouted the same nonsense for literally months about how screwed the Kings are regarding O’Sullivan.

    And yet…there is no word about talks being stalled, or a mess, or any kind of news whatsoever. Nobody on ESPN, The Hockey News, TSN, Yahoo, Fox Sports, NHL.com is even reporting on it at all.

    To everyone except you it appears to be a nonissue.

  • cristobal

    nykingsfan – i don’t know his motivation for staying with aeg if they wont let him spend all of his cap money. Was he working before the kings brought him in? Not as a GM and after his blunders here, getting another GM job is out of the question: anyone can fail and try to draft well, even me.

    I am a hockey fan and want to see the incoming talent of Doughty and Teubert, I think they should be good players based on what i’ve read. But I don’t see any other franchise who’s done this sort of thing, ever. St. Louis had a fire-sale a couple years ago, but even they knew guys like Weight would come back to them and help lead the young guys.

    For those that think this is a good message to send, answer one question: Is the way to build a ‘dynastic’ winner to aggressively and randomly sign players away from the teams that dare to offer your RFA’s lucrative contracts?

  • http://yahoo.com George

    If Brave Sir Deano were to follow through on his threats, this would entail signing a mid-level RFA for a higher salary than anyone on the current roster, while surrendering 3-5 lottery-level first-round draft choices. This has to be one of the emptiest threats ever.

    Consider an alternate scenario: on 7/1/2009, two other teams sign Kopitar and Johnson to Vanek-type contracts. Would it shock you if AEG decided to match one offer and let the other guy go in exchange for the 5 first-round choices? From AEGs standpoint, they would still have one marquee player to promote (while staying near the salary floor), and Brave Sir Deano could boast about how the extra 5 choices will ensure a dynasty for decades to come!!

    Is this likely to occur? Perhaps not, but it is FAR more likely than Deano getting authorization from AEG to sign a midlevel RFA and give up several first-round draft choices. It would be fun to see it happen, just to enjoy Deanos spin.

    *********

    Deano Lombardos TANKALOT

    Opens October 9 in San Jose. Closes April 11 in Los Angeles.

    Good seats available.

  • cristobal

    ME – Kopitar and Crosby were drafted the same year, there is no reason Kopitar could not be offered 6 million right now. This year is going to be no problem with salary cap, so they should use that freedom to lock him up for the years to come.

  • jack handy

    note to self:

    M U S T

    S T O P

    R E A D I N G

    C O M M E N T S

  • mrbrett7

    No guys, I think your missing the point.

    I understand the demographic of what is going on right now, I believe Dean does also.

    I also understand what AEG has done the last 10+ years, and how many of us (me included) are quite skeptical of their handling of this team.

    I was also around prior to AEG to see 1 criminal (McNall), 1 bankrup owner (Sidowitz), and 1 jackass (Buss) mismanaged and mishandle this franchise as a laughing stock. I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    Lombardi knows and any knowledgible fan should know, the NHL can’t continue down the path it’s heading in. The teams that have signed these guys to these ridiculous contracts over the past couple of years, in another year, are going to be in deep ****. The cap is already rumored to be heading back down next year. Who is in position to handle that? Not many…but the Kings are. Is this on purpose? I don’t know.

    Now, as for O’Sullivan…is he worth what the others are getting paid…flat answer. NO, HE IS NOT. He has played one decent year in the NHL, and has not proven a thing, period. His agent is trying to get him money based on potential. The others who you have seen signed, all have more experience at this level, AND more success…some more than others, but nonetheless, more.

    I believe the hold up here has something to do with Rich’s idea that he brought up a few weeks ago, and it makes PERFECT sense. Get Kopitar signed to an extension long term now, and he sets the ceiling for all forwards. Get Johnson signed long term, and he sets the ceiling for all defensemen. Possibly even get Bernier signed long term at some point this season or next summer (anyone know when his contract is up), and, well, you should see where I’m going with this.

    You sign O’Sullivan to more than he is actually worth, then what happens if Purcell comes along and is better (not saying he is), or Boyle, or anyone else. You run into this problem again (a good problem to have, granted). You have to keep costs under control at some point because you have more than one guy to sign…you can’t blow your wad on one guy when you have around 10 to sign over the next 2/3 years.

  • nykingfan

    Cristobal,
    that’s a ridiculous argument. Have you looked around the league at some of the GM’s currently employed? Have you ever taken a look at the Islanders organization? They have clueless Garth Snow at the helm. The team has absolutely no direction.
    I have read enough comments from other teams hockey people, especially at the draft, that DL is doing it the right way, and if things work out as planned, the Kings will be good for a long time.
    His resume speaks for itself. This is not his first job in the league. EH was successful in San Jose. The may not have won a cup, but they always are competitive.
    He has a situation here that few other GM’s in the league have. He’s building up an organization from the bottom. He’s drafting his kind of players. I have the patience to see the end result..and if they win, we’ll all be smiling. Some with less egg on their face.

    Your point about Kopitar is just a guess. What if by waiting they can get him locked up longer term for less than $6 mil a year? WE’re not privy to negotiations, nor should we pretend that we are.

  • cristobal

    George – Your point is spot on. Signing RFA’s has rarely been done because the penalty can hamstring a club for a few years minimum in terms of drafting and trading draft picks. Not to mention – players have a nasty habit of relaxing once they’re not hungry any more. The only RFA signings i can really remember are Glen Wesley and Penner. Usually the terms are matched and nothing further ensues. If it does, and this is where i believe you expose Lombardi’s falsities, the loss of 1st round picks is more like punishing yourself.

  • DellaNooch

    I’ll take a different path this time and just disregard Anthony & Cristobal comments for obvious reasons…the one reasonable thing that we need to be concerned with is that DL is hinting at not signing JMFJ or Kopi before next July 1st, perhaps neither one of them want that before this season ends so they can maxmize their contract, which I can see the advantage for them, but it would be nice if locked them up before July 1st and actually focused on UFA next summer to support our core. Just my two cents.

  • cristobal

    nykingsfan – i really don’t know what you’re thinking. Lombardi is constantly credited with building San Jose into some sort of dynasty and even his wikipedia page make no sense as they credit him with drafting Nabokov and Toskala before he was even GM. Asst. GM doesn’t count. Other than his first round picks that turned pro – his only truly good picks beyond the 1st round are cheechoo and clowe.

    I hate to tell you, but even Garth Snow isn’t as delusional as Lombardi. This team doesn’t even have 6 NHL level defensemen at the moment. Outside of Brown and Kopitar, there is no proven scoring. He can crow all he wants about his drafting skills, but tell me what the hell is going on with Trevor Lewis? Is he going to help this team score goals this year? Wake up and at least stop trying to convince the people that can see through all this BS that they’re wrong. At least present some arguments that support what you and Lombardi are saying.

    WHO IS DEAN LOMBARDI TO LOWBALL KOPITAR? Pay this guy what he deserves or trade him to someone who values him and let us move on with our lives and find a new team to support.

  • Duracell

    It’s like a box of rocks around here.

  • cristobal

    RICH – a more accurate title may have been LOMBARDI’S MAGINOT LINE

  • andre norway

    there is no reason for the kings to spend to the top of the cap. we just need to get to the floor and thats is for this season. look at pittsburgh, they did not have the cap room to keep all their players after the run to the stanly cup final. Dl wants to sign kopi and jj to long term contracts that will pay them 5 mill a year in 5-6 years. players like boyle and purcell and moulson will never get that kind of money and it will take 4-6 years before doughty, hickey, teubert, bernier to get to those salaries. Im sure the players want to take 5 mill a year and know that they each year has the possibility to win the cup. thats why we doensnt pay 7-8 million for briere/gomez to play for us now but in 3-5 years we can pay malkin that money to take the last step or we dont need to because our team is so goood that we just need to get a bridge player ala holmstrom to get us there.

  • Bobby

    The comments on this site are like a traffic accident. You dont want to look but, you always do for some reason. I can’t take it anymore though, im sticking to just reading Rich’s posts.

    I swear, if Lombardi pulled a family out of a burning building 2-3 people (you know who you are) here would knock him for not putting out the fire to save the building too. Oh yeah, then they would question why he is saving people when he should be working on a contract for POS.

    2 or 3 people are ruining this site. Im out.

    p.s.

    Yes, I’ll still be looking at these damn comments tomorrow ;(. I hate me.

  • ChrisH

    Hey guys, what do you think DL is going to say??? “We aren’t going to match any offer sheets so come sign our young guys we can’t get under contract by July 1.” *Yawn*

  • kingskicka$$

    Hey cristobal, can you post the link to the site that you found that states DL is “low balling” Kopi? I find this very interesting and I must have missed that article… Thanks!

  • nykingfan

    cristobal I’ve come to the conclusion, you are clueless.

    Pay Kopitar whatever he deserves…and unless you’re privy to negotiations, do you have a clue as to what his agent will ask for? You don’t. Stop trying to give your OPINIONS as stated facts. How the hell do you know he’s lowballing Kopitar?
    You’re talking out of both sides of your ass.

    Now you’re more of an expert than Wikipedia? Are you the all knowing and powerful OZ that you know more than everyone else, including Lombardi?
    Get off your soap box.
    I haven’t seen any Trevor Lewis games to state he should be up this year..which is probably the exact same amount that you’ve seen from him. Maybe he’ll be ready next year. I’ll leave that to the experts. You’re not one of them.

  • cristobal

    kingskick – i was referring to nykingsfan’s statement that Lombardi could perhaps get Kopitar for less than 6 million a year. Maybe he can, but I believe Kopitar is perhaps the 3rd best player in the league behind Ovechkin and Crosby. I think Malkin is awesome but the Kopitar may actually be more well rounded. If Brian Campbell is signing for over 6, you have Briere, Drury, and many others over 6, I don’t see how anything less that 6 could not be considered lowballing him. But again, i’m responding to nykingsfan’s post.

    nykingsfan – i’ve tried to hold some reasonable conversation and arguement with you, but YOU don’t know what you’re talking about.

  • cristobal

    nykingsfan – for your information wikipedia, while a great tool, is no expert. Most people know it can be edited by you or me.

  • psycho

    once again, these are perfect examples of why LA Kings fans are considered the least knowledgeable and least deserving hockey fans in the league. So what you have waited over 40 years for a cup … you finally have management in place that is building a foundation for success. It may not come this year or the next but when it does, it will last much longer than a single cup appearance (e.g. 1993). I suspect that this has much to do with the fact that hockey is still relatively new to L.A. and most of you who have never played the game or claim to be experts because you watch it on TV or play in a rec league with your buddies, your hockey training has been limited and you are not exposed to the intricacies of the sport, its history and culture. Comments by people like Anthony do nothing but perpetuate this opinion of LA fans. You want the glory without paying the price or doing it the right way. Most of you are intelligent individuals who are frustrated – and you should be. The past decade or so has been an embarrassment for this organization. But you should also not be so dense not to recognize how things are changing – even over the past 2 seasons. The good thing is that those of you who have no patience and believe that you can run this team because you listen to Bob Miller or your 30 mph slapshot got 2 inches off the ice at the Culver City ice rink and beat a 42 year old goalie, will not have to wait long to say “I’ve been a King’s fan for years!” when they start playing in the upper echelon of this league. Until then do us all a favor and take a deep breath, ask some questions and stop being such jackasses. If you aren’t happy simply being a King’s fan – win or lose – go be a Ducks fan or better yet, a Red Wings fan. They’ll take anyone.

  • Irish Pat

    For fans like Anthony and cristobal:

    What do you want and what do you expect?

    I agree- it BLOWS that the Kings are going to lose this season. Do you want Lombardi to trade away prospects for veteran help? If so, why? Are you guys not excited about the prospect of having all of these young kids play for the Kings in 2-3 seasons? Kopitar, Brown, O’Sullivan, Frolov, Purcell, Lewis, Boyle, Moller, Simmonds, Cliche, JMFJ, Doughty, Hickey, Teubert, Voinov, Martinez, Bernier, Zatkoff- How does this list not excite you? Because they aren’t penciled in for this season? Why do you guys care that the Kings aren’t going to overspend and be close to the salary cap? Is it so important to have a winning team THIS particular season?

    Fill me in. Pretty please. You don’t even need to put sugar on top.

  • JonG

    I’m not sure what everyone is up in arms about. This is exactly the strategy that Lombardi outlined in the days after Crawford’s firing. You had to sift through the double-talk and evasions, but it’s all there.

    The only new news is that he thinks the contracts for Kopi and JJ will be done this summer. That’s very encouraging.

  • Captain Material

    “…and unless you’re privy to negotiations, do you have a clue as to what his agent will ask for? You don’t.”

    “I’ll leave that to the experts.”

    Right there is some truth.

    You know, if guys like anthony and cristobal come in and say, “I’m frustrated these guys haven’t been signed”, I’m pretty sure they are universally agreed with. Instead they come in with elaborate deep reads into the situation with explanations that only make sense if they are inside the heads of the people involved.

    If there was some actual indication that not only something happened, but also as to why that thing happened, that’s even somewhat excusible. Actually though, they are actively speculating in authoritative tones about things that haven’t happened.

    It’s ridiculous.

    And then some of this stuff is just plain wrong on what they are saying. I could point out stuff line by line, but the over-riding theme is the expectations and goals DL has set out are not the same as what these guys have in their heads and they can’t come to terms with that.

    The goal is not to have success this season, it is to build and develop. We don’t have established scorers (especially if you fail to count guys like Frolov and O’Sullivan (who is so important to lock up but you don’t count him)), we don’t have established D, etc. Well, it depends on what your expectations are.

    I think there are a ton of fans out there who are going to be rather happy seeing a bunch of young unestablished players learning on the job. If you’ve been a fan of this team for any length of time, you have to have the perspective that losing with no plan and no hope for a better future is worse than doing so with tangible futures right there in front of you on the ice.

    Losing while seeing kids play for spots also beats the hell out of treading water with a bunch of B and C level vets who are just good enough to make sure you don’t get good draft position, but not good enough to take you anywhere serious.

    You guys act like Rome was built in a day. A GM comes into a situation where the organization is going nowhere fast and implements a fundamentaly sound plan to build a sustained winner and he sticks to it, and you complain hes not focused on winning today enough, hes not flexible enough, you complain about moves that are clearly made as stop gaps and roster fill-ins for not being team changers…it’s ridiculous.

    Look if you’re frustrated this team isn’t going to be at the top of the standings next year, just say that and move on. If you are frustrated the RFA signnings are taking longer than you hoped, just say that. All this other crap…

  • Irish Pat

    Well put Captain Material. Rome wasn’t built in a day and neither was any other dynasty.

  • cristobal

    Irish Pat – first of all, i love the name. But come on….do you not understand? I, for one, do not believe the team needed to completely rebuild. I don’t believe a career King like Taylor should have been fired. He should have fired Andy Murray after the season before the lockout, but Leiwike just blew it by firing Taylor.

    I am eager to see young guys get into this league and perform well; but i’m not going to sit here and swallow the idea that a guy like Cliche or Moller will ever play regularly in the NHL, let alone be an impact player.

    I’ve been led down the road of “hope” too many times with this franchise. Lombardi is swimming in the deep end. The Salary cap is only in its 3rd year and he believes he knows how to build a perennial winner? He’s also gone and traded, or lost, many of the assets he inherited for little return: Corvo, Garon, Sopel, Avery, Norstrom, Demitra, Visnovsky, Cammalleri, Miller, Belanger, They may not all be all-stars, but for they’re all NHL players. Purcell, Lewis, Moller, Simmonds, Cliche, Hickey, Voinov, Martinez, Bernier, Zatkoff……these guys may never be NHL regulars. For those of you that are going to argue Bernier is already a sure thing – rememer Marc Denis, Al Montoya, Jamie Storr……

    Add to this his horrible free-agent transactions and I find no reason to believe in what he’s selling….

    I continually ask people to show me the stellar work he supposedly did with San Jose, but it’s not there. Some good 1st round draft picks and 2 later round finds in 6-7 years…doesn’t make him the ‘strategist’ or ‘genius’ people say he is. I’m much more impressed with Brown, Boyle, Kopitar, Visnovski, Cammalleri, Corvo, Lilja, Huet, Parros, Jokinen, and a few others.

  • mrbrett7

    Wavesinhishair…sorry, didn’t see your question.

    Great team 15 years ago? You really think that was a great team? I’m sorry if I disagree (I assume your referring to the team that went to the finals). If it was such a great team, they would have had continued success, but they didn’t. They missed the playoffs the following year, and because of mismanagement, this franchise has been nowhere close to something resembling a hockey team since.

    In fact, this franchise has pandered more to the fans in order to put asses in the seats, and that has been their #1 problem for more than 40 years, instead of ignoring the cries of the fans to win now, instead of actually building a franchise.

    Did you know that from 1971 (I believe) until 1989 (I believe), the Kings did not have ONE, not ONE first round pick? During that time period, the 1st rounders they traded turned into the likes of Ray Bourque, amond others, meanwhile, those 1st round picks were traded for aging, overpaid veterens who were simply names in order to attract fans.

    This is what most of you don’t get about AEG, and why I absolutely LOVE them. Yes, they may have tight purse strings, BUT AT LEAST THEY HAVE A PURSE. McNall absolutely wanted to win, but during his ownership, the Kings almost ceased to exhist…because of him, players got IOU’s in their paychecks, instead of paychecks (you can look this up if you want to). With AEG, you know despite the monetary losses, they aren’t going anywhere because the Kings are their foothold in downtown LA.

    The Kings did not have a great team in 2001. They had 3 forwards, 2 defensemen, and a goaltender that the entire league didn’t want, and all you had to do was shoot high, glove side to find out. The cup run was made up of Gretzky, Kurri, a few midgets, a WHOLE lot of luck, and a seal out of water in net. Yes, they got there (and probably should have won), but at the same rate, they really were not that good.

    On to this team. For the first time in the history of this franchise, there is actual hope for years of decent to good hockey. Lombardi is trying to get everyone into the fold, all together. If you think this is easy, well, I assure you it isn’t.

    If you pay too much for O’Sullivan, you WILL pay too much for the next 10 that come along…Yes, you Anthony, Cristobal…please, THINK ABOUT THIS. This is bigger than ONE player.

  • Captain Material

    “…I believe Kopitar is perhaps the 3rd best player in the league behind Ovechkin and Crosby. I think Malkin is awesome but the Kopitar may actually be more well rounded….nykingsfan – i’ve tried to hold some reasonable conversation and arguement with you, but YOU don’t know what you’re talking about.”

    Talk about myopia! Yeah cristobal, nykf is the one who doesn’t know what he’s talking about…

    I like Kopitar too, but that statement is ridiculous. He scores, so he must not be “well rounded”. Man, I wish I could find the old central scouting report on the guy from ’04 that talked about what made him a top pick was his defensive game on top of his offense.

    It’s a good thing you’re making that statement to a group of Kings fans, because homers are the only ones who are going to think that statement has even a remote chance of not being completely ludicrous.

    Too bad you aren’t the GM in PIT! I love Kopitar to death, but I’d make that trade without a second thought.

    Okay, well that settles that.

  • anthony

    nykingsfan, Irish Pat, Captain Material

    Even though we don’t see eye to eye on most issues, I respect your opinions.

    But what I see right now, is an underachieving GM talking big in front of his boss’ in order to keep his job.
    Don’t you see, this GM has already conceded the 08-09 season.
    That’s a terrible thing to do to us fans.
    The people who pay his salary and AEG’s salary.

    I have no confidence in either of them.

  • cristobal

    {If you’ve been a fan of this team for any length of time, you have to have the perspective that losing with no plan and no hope for a better future is worse than doing so with tangible futures right there in front of you on the ice.}—–CAPS ARE JUST FOR MY REPLY——WOULD YOU NOT AGREE THAT THE STATE OF THE TEAM WHEN LOMBARDI TOOK WAS PROMISING? HE WAS HANDED KOPITAR, BROWN, CAMMALLERI, VISNOVSKY, PLUS BOYLE AND QUICK IN THE SYSTEM.

    {Losing while seeing kids play for spots also beats the hell out of treading water with a bunch of B and C level vets who are just good enough to make sure you don’t get good draft position, but not good enough to take you anywhere serious.} —— THE B AND C LEVEL VETS OF THE PAST 2 YEARS HAVE PROVIDED THE 2ND AND 4TH OVERALL DRAFT PICKS – MEANWHILE, HANDZUS, NAGY, CALDER, CLOUTIER, AND MCCAULEY COST A COMBINED 16 MILLION LAST YEAR.

    {You guys act like Rome was built in a day. A GM comes into a situation where the organization is going nowhere fast and implements a fundamentaly sound plan to build a sustained winner and he sticks to it, and you complain hes not focused on winning today enough, hes not flexible enough, you complain about moves that are clearly made as stop gaps and roster fill-ins for not being team changers…it’s ridiculous.}——-THIS GM CAME IN 2 YEARS AGO AND SPENT A LOT OF MONEY AND MADE THE TEAM WORSE. IT WASNT UNTIL HE FIRED CRAWFORD THAT HE STARTED SELLING THE NEW DIRECTION. ROME WASNT BUILT BY CHILDREN AND AN INEXPERIENCED MILITARY.

    ALL I’VE SEEN FROM LOMBARDI SO FAR IS MISTAKES, SO UNTIL THERE IS PROOF THAT HE IS A GOOD GM, I WILL NOT BELIEVE. I’M SURE I’VE BEEN A KINGS FAN MUCH LONGER THAN LOMBARDI, AND I THINK HE’S REALLY SCREWED THE TEAM.

  • cristobal

    captain material – despite your lack of writing skills i think that i understood that you disagree with my contention that kopitar is more well rounded than Malkin. Maybe you’re correct, that’s opinion for you. If i were the GM of Pittsburgh, i would make the trade, that’s how much i think of Kopitar. He is great in the corners, he’s incredible gifted with vision, he makes everyone around him better, he is as strong defensively as offensively, and i believe he should be captain. that’s my opinion, i wasn’t trying to slight Malkin.

  • mrbrett7

    Wow…Cristobal…you haven’t seen Malkin play much, have you?

  • Irish Pat

    cristobal,

    Thanks for the impassioned reply. I do respect your views and opinions even if I don’t agree with them.

    1.) “I, for one, do not believe the team needed to completely rebuild.”- Did you expect Jeremy Roenick and Valeri Bure to bring the Kings the Cup? Dave Taylor did a lot of good things to help this franchise, but build a winner? Eh…

    2.) “…but i’m not going to sit here and swallow the idea that a guy like Cliche or Moller will ever play regularly in the NHL…”- Why not? Have you seen them play? I saw Moller play at the WJC and he looked good. I say let them play before condemning them to hockey limbo for eternity. You mention in your last paragraph players like Lilja, Visnovsky, Corvo, Huet and Parros. Did you know they were going to have an impact when they were drafted?

    3.) “I’ve been led down the road of “hope” too many times with this franchise.”- Indeed. We all have. But have the Kings ever done a rebuild like this? Look at the history of the Islanders team that won 4 Cups in a row. Or the Devils or Red Wings teams that have won. See a pattern for success?

    Look, there’s no way we’ll know if Drew Doughty will be the next Rob Blake or the next Aki Berg until he plays. Olli Jokinen took years to develop and was traded twice before he became a stud in the NHL and he was drafted 3rd overall. My point is that this team may still suck in a few years and it also may not. Have some patience. We’ll know in a few years if Lombardi’s head belongs on a stick. Cheers!

  • cristobal

    mrbrett – i have to totally disagree with almost all of what you said.

    The kings had only 1 first round draft pick between 69 and 78. between 78 and 89 they actually had 10, sometimes 2 in one year.

    the kings may not have made the playoffs after the cup run, but neither did the ducks after losing to new jersey in the finals. they were able to build upon it and win it a few years on.

    McNall may have screwed the team by getting arrested, but at least he cared about winning. He not only brought gretzky, but reportedly wanted to get Bossy to play alongside him. I will never put this guy down and don’t judge him too harshly for his ‘creative financing’.

    the kings in 93 were an awesome team that just didn’t win it. There are plenty of good, even great, teams that don’t win the trophy. the nfl patriots didn’t lose a game all season but couldn’t win the super bowl.

    the 93 team had robitaille, sandstrom, granato, blake, zhitnik, sydor, conacher, dave taylor, donnelly, mullin, mark hardy, and MCSORLEY. IF you think that’s not that good, i can’t help you.

    maybe AEG pays you, but i don’t like the building, i don’t like the uniforms, i don’t like the salary cap, i don’t like the prices, i don’t like the marketing campaign over winning, i don’t like the corporate crowds, i don’t like the conservative christian movies Anschutz is pumping out, i don’t like him complaining about profits, i don’t like his choice of GM and i didn’t like his GMs choice of crawford. i don’t like the direction hockey is going……

    I do like sports that are competitive, playoff hockey, and holding on to career kings like taylor.

  • voice of reason

    Maybe this is why a few people on this blog are so clueless–because they don’t watch much hockey aside from the Kings.

    In the careers of Kopitar and Malkin…
    Games played
    Kopitar: 154
    Malkin: 160

    Goals Scored
    Kopitar: 52
    Malkin: 80

    Assists
    Kopitar: 86
    Malkin: 111

    Points
    Kopitar: 138
    Malkin: 191

    Average Time on Ice Last Season
    Kopitar: 20:41
    Malkin: 21:19

    Kings Team Goals For Average: 2.76
    Pittsburgh Team Goals For Average: 2.93

    Sorry Cristobal, that’s just a downright laughable claim.

  • Daniel

    “cristobal said:
    ME – Kopitar and Crosby were drafted the same year, there is no reason Kopitar could not be offered 6 million right now.”

    Kopitar played an extra year in Sweden before coming to the Kings. Drafted-the-same-year is not the same as signed-entry-level-contract-the-same-year. Crosby played out his 3-year deal just as Kopitar is doing this year. Kopitar will get his money. Don’t worry.

  • JDM

    Captain Material, the first post was great, but I kind of agree with cristobal that Kopitar is one of the top talents, and a better overall player than Malkin. He’s not top 3 in the league, but he has the game to be. Kopitar has leadership and class written all over him, which some guys (like Malkin), while insanely skilled, just don’t.

    However cristobal, I can’t let you off the hook completely. Sure Visnovsky, Corvo, Cammalleri, Norstrom, Avery, Demitra etc were all solid players and were/are full time NHL’ers to be sure, but on other teams, they are virtually all mid pairing guys. We had a team full of “depth” with no top talent. They also had no chemistry.

    The thing I think people constantly overlook is that DL, at least in my estimation, is putting together a team of like minded indivuals, most all of which want to lead and help others, but are TEAM players. Theo Fluery (just a random example, compare him to Avery if you want) was a great guy to have, but he and his ilk play for themselves, not for the team. I do think we had a solid team in 01, and that after the injury bug absolutely destroyed our top line (which wasn’t anyones fault, but it did point out our lack of real quality depth, which was someone’s fault, whose name is Dave Taylor) the team did need a real rebuild, but never really got it. It coasted along trying to fill the top line with second liners, and the second line with 3rd and 4th liners. We didn’t have the depth to trade for top talent. Now I see the potential for an insanely talented team, top to bottom, but more importantly, a team of guys who were brought up together, like to play together, and all are of the team mindset to attain the highest of goals. Just look a the waste that was Roenick. He’s good depth for San Jose, but shouldn’t be a marquee player like he was sold to the fans here.

    Those claiming DL’s comments hint that he doesn’t think he’ll lock up Kopi and JJ until after July 1st next year clearly didn’t read the article and missed the part where he says he wants to and plans to lcok them up before training camp. You can’t compare the value of a young talent to the UFA market. Crosby and Malkin and Overchkin would net probably an extra 1-3 million on the open market. Does that mean 8.7 mill is low-balling? Players, atleast the kind of character players I want on the team, take discounts for various reasons. Sure, players want to win, but the negativos like to assume O’Sullivan and Kopitar and Johnson and such have no hope for the future of the franchise either… that would essentially mean they have very little confidence in themselves. Something tells me that these guys think more highly of themselves than that, and being young I think (speculation) that they would rather build a winner centered around themselves than jump over to another team to collect a paycheck and right on the coat tails of a team that has been a contender already that has nothing to do with them. However, they are also considering the next several, and likely prime years of their lives and careers. Would you think about it for a while before signing your name to a legally binding contract? I would.

    Really our success this season and the next has less to do with our roster and more to do with the coaching. The most important signing that could take place this off-season was not O’Sullivan or Stoll or some over paid or over the hill FA who may or may not fit the system here, in fact the most important signing already happened, Terry Murray. Most of us are in agreement that the coaching staff just got a huge adrenaline boost. Let’s see what they can do.

  • cristobal

    mrbrett, i have seen both kopitar and malkin and i play hockey. i know what i’m looking at and the kings have never drafted a player the likes of Kopitar.

  • mrbrett7

    Congratulations, I play hockey as well, and have for 23 years…you want a cookie?

    No, the Kings have never drafted anyone like Kopitar, and the teams who passed on him are kicking themselves, but to say he is better than Malkin may be the most laughable thing I have ever read.

    Oneday, possibly, right now in their careers, Kopitar can’t hold Malkin’s jock strap.

    I am a Kings fan, and have been since I was 6. Nobody can question how badly I want to win, but open your eyes man, there is more to this game than what happens on the ice at Staples Center.

    Now, he wanted to bring in Bossy to play with him…what was he going to do, bring him and his knees out of retirement? That’s a good one there…got any more gems?

  • cristobal

    MRBRETT – just because you played 23 years doesn’t mean you don’t suck.

    You may be confusing the Malkin/Kopitar issue because Kopitar plays for a horrible franchise and on a horrible team.

    Bossy’s back was his physical problem, mr know it all. Anyway, you showed that you know next to nothing about hockey and the players when you stated that gretzky and kurri were the only good players on the 93 kings. you said it all.

  • Irish Pat

    cristobal,

    McNall wouldn’t have had the Kings trade for Bossy. Bossy hated Gretzky. Read Gretzky’s autobiography and you’ll get the impression that the feeling was mutual on Gretzky’s end as well.

    JDM,

    Great point anout DL’s drafting of like-minded individuals. I’d like to add that he drafts winners and character guys too.

  • yesitscal

    Cristobal,

    Crosby signed an extension last season. Didn’t you hear about that? His entry-level contract has been fulfilled, so he can now negotiate free of the rookie cap.

    As far as Petr Prajsler and Mikko Makela, were those guys Lombardi’s fault? Makela had some good years in the league and acquiring him just didn’t work out. Is your ideal GM never supposed to make an error in judgment?

    And you like Joe Corvo, who doesn’t play a lick of defense?! You probably like the fact that he beats up women, too.

    And Kopitar is now the third best player in the league? Holy crap! He’s good, and he could be a superstar, but to say he’s the third best player in the league at this point in time is absolute folly! If other people disagree with me, please give me a good dressing down on this matter.

    And you want Kopitar to get six million because Brian Campbell got six? Sop, what you’re telling us is that because Dale Talon is stupid that gives other GM’s the right to be stupid? Granted, Kopitar will end up, barring injury, being ten times the play Campbell will ever be, but you’re comparing apples and oranges here because Kopitar is still on his entry-level contract and plays a different position.

    Kopitar better than Malkin? Better than Kovalchuk, Iginla, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lacavalier, Gaborek, Thornton, just to name a few? Yes, he’s up there with some of them, but third best in the entire frigging league? Are you kidding me?

    And Anthony, I’m still waiting to hear from you about which teams have made contract offers to O’Sullivan, since you seem to have inside information about this stuff when nobody else here does. C’mon, we all want to know!

  • yesitscal

    Irish Pat said:

    2.) “…but i’m not going to sit here and swallow the idea that a guy like Cliche or Moller will ever play regularly in the NHL…”- Why not? Have you seen
    them play? I saw Moller play at the WJC and he looked good. I say let them play before condemning them to hockey limbo for eternity. You mention in your
    last paragraph players like Lilja, Visnovsky, Corvo, Huet and Parros. Did you know they were going to have an impact when they were drafted?

    I think you forgot Lauri Tukonen

  • cristobal

    JDM – I appreciate, once again, your opinion and ability to write. I have no problem with being eager to see the young guys and enjoy watching someone become a great nhler.

    irish pat – tukonen was also greatly impressive in the wjc. lombardi just traded him. Like i said in my initial post under this topic, lombardi should just keep his mouth shut and sign these guys. Don’t tell us you haven’t traded young players when you’ve already traded Gleason, Cammalleri, Tukonen, Avery, and Stuart. Don’t go to the media with warnings to other GM’s, threatening to sign their players if they dare sign yours. It’s just rhetoric to make excuses as to why the kings are so far below the cap floor. Why hasn’t he signed Stoll? Get it done. Quit the BS.

  • JDM

    “i don’t like the conservative christian movies Anschutz is pumping out”

    Haha, the Narnia films are some of the worst, most botched books ever filmed.

    Malkin is great mrbrett… but I lost a lot of respect him in the finals. I know he was being tortured by Detroits D, but he lost all heart in his game. Sure, Kopitar has no playoff experience to be compared with, but overall from the Pens game I have seen (I try and watch other young stars as much as possible), Kopitar gets more excited when he scores, rallies his teammates more, is more well spoken, and on a MUCH MUCH MUCH worse team still puts up great numbers, razzles and dazzles and is not a liability playing next to the worst defense in the league. He may not score as many points as Malkin (possibly not having Crosby as a PP line mate or Gonchar feeding you pucks has something to do with that…) but I think he is more of an impact player.

    Cristobal, you mentioned Lewis in an earlier post, to the effect of “what has he done lately” with the insuation that he won’t do much of anything. The guy is 21, just completed his first pro year and while wasn’t able to maintain his offensive production from the OHL, he still played a strong game, was responsible defensively, put up a + 4 or something in 72 or 76 games, is the fastest Kings prospects and in a another year should have effectively replaced and improved upon Eric Belanger, someone you mentioned you think should have remained on the team. So, if that is the case, which isn’t for sure, but seems very likely, DL would have traded Demitra, Gleason and Belanger for O’Sullivan (younger, better defensively Demitra), Johnson (just leagues beyond Gleason already), and Lewis (Belanger with more potential upside, solid defensively and fast as hell). To me, that’s using our assets pretty effectively, trading an again player and two young players for two better, younger players.

  • cristobal

    irish pat – name the winners and character guys Lombardi drafted in san jose….

    I did say ‘reportedly’ in the bossy case, and the point is that McNall tried to make it happen. He wanted the best players he could get and thought it was possible that it could work out. Has AEG ever given you the impression they care as much as that?

  • JDM

    please disregard those horrendous erros in grammar…

  • JDM

    and spelling…

  • cristobal

    JDM – my point about Lewis was not that he’s not going to make it, but Lombardi is telling us that its going to be his draft choices that this team is built upon. If lewis isn’t making an impact in the NHL this year, why are we to expect his other draft picks to be making an impact in 3 years?

    Everyone wrote off Tukonen and he, despite injuries, put up the same numbers in the ahl and is the same age.

    likewise, Gleason and Johnson had very similar numbers last year and to say that he is leagues beyond Gleason is, IMO, overstating it just a bit. My point, mainly, was that for what he’s traded, i think his return is less. Plus, i was referring to the statements Lombardi made to the effect of “i haven’t traded any young players”.

  • Irish Pat

    cristobal,

    I should have specified; winners and character guys for the Kings. I think it’s funny that you keep crapping on Lombardi’s tenure with the Sharks. Who would you rather have as GM?

    I agree with you that Bruce McNall cared. I’m not a fan of AEG, but at least AEG hasn’t had a problem making payroll.

  • petey

    First off, Anthony, it seems every post I make on here is an answer to your idiotic posts. Who ever said that other teams are offering O’Sullivan more money than what DL is offering? His agent? Well, then why hasn’t there been an offer sheet signed? It’s because his agent is playing the negotiating game is all. DL wants a long term deal, O’Sullivan’s agent wants a shorter deal. They have to workout something in the middle. Who ever said DL waited to long? Maybe, I know it’s hard for you to believe, that it was O’Sullivan’s agent that said to just wait until the off-season? No, you didn’t ever think of that, cause you love to lay the blame of Lombardi.
    Secondly, no he probably won’t have all the room under the cap to keep them all. That’s why he’s built up so many draft picks, so he can keep talent coming in when it’s ready and move players that he can’t fit under the cap. Kopitar, Brown, Johnson, and O’Sullivan are the players that are the core, and will be kept around. I would add Doughty, Bernier, Hickey, Teubert, Boyle & Purcell to that list as well after a season or two in the NHL. How do you know that Frolov doesn’t take a home town discount like Brown did? You don’t, so stop coming to conclusions before they actually happen.
    Now, onto Cristobal. Lack of movement? Do you actually know what a rebuild is all about? It’s about playing the young players that are ready. Give them the ice-time that these lazy veterans the past 2 seasons have taking up. Respect to the other teams? He’s showed tons of respect, he’s just plainly stating the truth. You come after our players, you better be ready to get the same treatment back. He’s laying it right out there for them. Nothing wrong with that at all.
    Now with wavesinair. What do you expect Lombardi to say? He’s going into a season with a young nucleas, do you expect him to say the playoffs are a good possibility? He said that last year, and look what happened with veterans that were supposed to lead the way. AEG won’t be saying that at all. It was AEG that said to stay the course of the rebuild. For them to turn around and fire him after just one season of a FULL rebuild would be stupid.
    DL says he wants to get Kopitar and Johnson signed long term before the season starts and some are calling him clueless. The guy wants to get two cornerstones of this franchise signed long term and people still find something to complain about. One word for that: Pathetic.
    I’m gonna absolutely love it when this team is in the playoffs year after year, and you complainers will be driving the bandwagon. But of course your memories will be short and you’ll be saying you knew it all along.

  • cristobal

    irish pat – i’m not crapping on his tenure with the sharks, i just think his supposed success is overblown. again, if you can point to a string of magical picks, something the team was built around, show me. but outside of some very high picks, there’s only a couple of gems. hardly Rome, hardly a dynasty.

  • Anonymous

    “I also believe that he shouldn’t be making the same mistake that he’s doing with O’Sullivan. Waiting too long to discuss contract extension.”

    What makes you think he’s waiting to start discussion with O’Sullivan? They have been in talks for more than a month. As a lawyer you should know a little something about negotiations and how they play out.

    “All the more reason that DL is out of touch with the system.
    If other teams are offering Sully more money (which I’m sure is reasonable), it only shows that he’s worth it and that they admire his talent and potential.”

    Lombardi’s out of touch? How so?

    By your logic if some team like say EDM, offers O’Sullivan a 5/6 million a yr contract based on his possible potential, Lombardi should just fall in line with the current system of overpaying guys before they’ve done anything? That’s completely insane. All it shows is a teams desperation to do something, even if it means giving up a ton of picks and having to OVERPAY for talent they can’t get elsewhere (see Dustin Penner).
    If anyones out of touch, it’s you.

  • ryan oliver

    cristobal

    one of your early comments really bothers me, the one where you said that Kopitar and Crosby were drafted the same year, so why isnt Kopitar making 6 mil, when Crosby is making 8+. Its simple. Crosby played the year after he was drafted and has played 3 years in the NHL. Kopitar went back to Sweden and played only 2 years. Both players signed a maximun level entry deal, which is 3 years long. So after this year, Kopitar can make his millions, but only after this year. He can sign a new contract for 15 years, $200 million if he wants, but it will only kick in after this year. I hope you understand this. Another example is Jack Johnson. This year is also his third year, like Kopitar. The 5-8 games he played at the end of 07 count as 1 year of his 3 year entry contract.

  • cristobal

    Petey – The young players are not ready….eric johnson didn’t even play for the blues his first year.

    Your “lazy veterans” are mostly Lombardi’s guys: handzus, calder, Nagy, Preissing, cloutier. By the way, you are calling players lazy, not me.

    I don’t know if you call the last 2 years a rebuild…..did it take him 2 years and a coaching blunder to figure it out?

    Respecting the other teams???? Tell me the names of restricted free agents that have signed with, and moved to new teams….If this really is a warning to other GM’s, i would hardly call it respectful.

  • cristobal

    ryan oliver – i did say i don’t really know the salary cap completely, and really don’t know anything about the rookie salary cap. It doesn’t add up however as Patrick Kane, Jonathan Toews, Carey Price, Evgeny Malkin; all these players have 2 years or less in the nhl and are all under contract for much more than Kopitar.

  • anon

    I know that I am not alone here in thinking that something “fishy” is going on. Not only are EVERY single post made by Anthony and Christo-dork posted by Rich but many of my posts and my friends posts that are somewhat critical are NOT being posted. I have a few suspicions. First, that “Anthony” and “Christobal” are either “plants” – likely either Rich or one of his fellow so-called journalists at the Daily News trying to drum up posts and hits to this blog – especially since they spend little time actually writing any newsworthy articles for that second-tier rag they call a newspaper. Or, second, they are practicing the very news editing that has caused the paper business to lose readership, cut real journalists and replace them with guys with little experience and even less integrity who will write anything and report anything for a pay check. Both of which cause those of us who are genuinely concerned about hockey and the King’s to grow frustrated. Sure most of the info on this site is wonderful but if you’re going to censor posts – do it with some sense of fairness – then again you are part of the media and fairness doesn’t sell papers – which for the Daily News is a common occurrence.

  • yesitscal

    cristobal said:

    maybe AEG pays you, but i don’t like the building, i don’t like the uniforms, i don’t like the salary cap, i don’t like the prices, i don’t like the marketing
    campaign over winning, i don’t like the corporate crowds, i don’t like the conservative christian movies Anschutz is pumping out, i don’t like him complaining
    about profits, i don’t like his choice of GM and i didn’t like his GMs choice of crawford. i don’t like the direction hockey is going……

    Damn! Who do you ever bother following the Kings then? Dude, you have some major anger issues to work out. Its not our fault if you were beaten as a kid!

  • JDM

    Isn’t it obvious to everyone that this comment is for us more than the other GM’s? He may have directed it towards the GM’s, but it was meant for our ears. If he wanted to tell the other GM’s that, he’d do it on a conference call. He’s showing us that he cares about our young talent. He’s trying to infuse some hope. Whether or not you choose to accept that hope shouldn’t discredit him for trying. Yes, ultimately he should speak with his actions and sign these guys. But there hasn’t been any negative news about the players holding out or not wanting to play. If there was a healthy amount of this, a reporter somewhere would pick up on it. The only word, other than, “progression as normal” came just before July 1 from Sully’s agent who simply said, ‘O’Sullivan could be the most highly targeted RFA this year’ which isn’t saying Sully would like that, if anything, it’s only saying to Lombardi, ‘Sully is worth a lot, please pay him because he’d like to stay.’ When a player flat out rejects offers or expresses disinterest with a town or frustration with a team, we hear about it. Like Bouwmeester, and he still signed before arbitration. We specifically heard that talks between Burke and Meszaros and Vermette were not going so well, and Vermette has been signed in spite of it. So I don’t understand the worry, or the dislike of DL saying something positively motivated to a small press paper he knows only those of us who really care will likely read. He is letting us know he cares, and trying to assuage the concern HE KNOWS IS THERE that we won’t lock up the young guns. He knows his job is on the line if he doesn’t, so why wouldn’t he do his best? If you think his best still sucks, that’s another story.

    Oh, and Matt R, since I see no one answered your question about what happens to the Kings if they don’t make the floor, simple, they forfeit games until they do.

  • Captain Material

    cristobal, I have a problem with being way too verbose trying to get across simple things, so I don’t want to go on for pages here responding to everything.

    After reading your comment about DT, I get where you are coming from and just plain disagree. DT set up part of a good development infrastructure and left with some good forwards in place, but with tons of holes. He spent a lot of time being just good enough and holding out until the new CBA. Then the team got what it wanted and it still didn’t work.

    The big difference I see here is AEG isn’t in the picture anymore other than setting the budget for DL. Them getting out of hockey decisions and leaving it to a guy with a plan is better than being “just good enough”. It just takes time.

    I would not agree DT had the team in a promising place based on that. All you do walking down the middle of the road is get hit by cars.

    All caps are never appropriate for anything other than making yourself annoying. Quotes work fine.

    I hear the complaints about Nagy and Hadzus and spending money…what is the real point exactly? How do those moves make any difference to us long term? My point is about what expectations are. Those guys filled holes. Spending that money or not was not going to effect ticket prices, so what effect is there? I think the complaints about DL failing on meaningless decisions is, well, meaningless. Okay, his UFA signnings have mostly not worked out, but then again they were never meant to even remotely effect the important stuff the organization is focused on, so what is the point of listing those as a problem?

    I’ve heard you complain about trading away Gleason and Belanger. So, you don’t like Johnson?

    I’ve heard you complain about Avery being traded. His track record says more than one team has found an addition through his subtraction, but you think different?

    To be completely clear on this one, I think we should have gotten better return for him. I also think we should have gotten better return for Cammi. The market stands in strong contrast to what I think however, I am willing to admit.

    Corvo was signed as a UFA to a large enough contract that OTT later regretted it and traded him away. You’d have liked to see DL go out and throw money at a guy like him? He also has a pretty poor locker room reputation, not as bad as Avery but still not a well liked guy, and you don’t ever hear much mention of that.

    Complain all you want about Huet and Lilja, but you’re better than Carnac if you saw these guys as being worth a damn when they left. Yes, I heard fans complain when Lilja was moved (who btw was moved by DT not DL), but they were also complaining about that rising star Bednar being moved at the same time.

    Its an understatement to say that I did not think highly of Cloutier prior to him coming here, and he far outreached my imagination for how bad he could suck. I do think this was a big mistake by DL. At the same time, I understand what he was trying to do with the move. I don’t think the guy is flawless, but he is consistantly doing the big things that matter long term done correctly and his mistakes are overwhelmingly on things that don’t matter much.

    Well, assuming your expectations are in line with the organizations. I don’t expect to win this season, so right there you aren’t going to hear me complain about a lot of the stuff you point to. I do expect to see progress made on long term issues. When I see that getting messed up, you’ll hear me change tune (like with the lack of return on Cammi).

    But back to the main thing, I understand where you are coming from and just plain think you are wrong that DT had things under control and everything was looking good until DL came along. DT served well, but a winner was not being built. Unfortunately it didn’t seem like he was in complete control. He did a great job of making lemonaid, but that management structure was not working. It was time for him to go, and time for AEG to step back and let hockey people make hockey decisions.

    I totally feel for DT also and understand why he went to DAL. He runs the show and has TL in his business constantly (it’s widely rumored JR’s signning was not a DT decision, for example), and then a new guy comes in to take his job and AEG goes hands-off all of a sudden? I feel for him and want to credit where due, but it was time for a change.

    And the Malkin thing for you and other people, I really think you don’t have a good handle on the guy if you want to attribute lack of leadership and single dimensional attributes to the guy. Go ask a Pens fan if he likes Malkin and compare that to the way Kings fans like Kopitar. Then go look at their performances.

    Nothing wrong with Kopitar, surely a top talent, but there is some serious homerism going on if people can’t recognize better players.

  • cristobal

    JDM – L. Ron Hubbard also promised enlightenment.

  • JDM

    Cristobal –

    Bonuses. Kopitar didn’t get any in his entry level deal. Those cap hits of Kane and Toews and Price, etc are not what they made necessarily, though I imagine they hit their bonuses. The cap hit is the maximum they COULD make with all their bonuses. Look at Stamkos contract he just signed to see a basic layout of the maximum an entry level contract can be. His salary is only $875k I think, with about $2.5 mill more in potential bonuses for point production, games played, +/-, if team finishes above a certain spot, etc. Same with Malkin, who finishes out his entry level contract this season. Sucks for Kopitar not to get the bonuses, but his agent is as much if not more to blame for that than DL.

  • 28 KINGS

    “I also believe that he shouldn’t be making the same mistake that he’s doing with O’Sullivan. Waiting too long to discuss contract extension.”

    What makes you think he’s waiting to start discussion with O’Sullivan? They have been in talks for more than a month. As a lawyer you should know a little something about negotiations and how they play out.

    “All the more reason that DL is out of touch with the system.
    If other teams are offering Sully more money (which I’m sure is reasonable), it only shows that he’s worth it and that they admire his talent and potential.”

    Lombardi’s out of touch? How so?

    By your logic if some team like say EDM, offers O’Sullivan a 5/6 million a yr contract based on his possible potential, Lombardi should just fall in line with the current system of overpaying guys before they’ve done anything? That’s completely insane. All it shows is a teams desperation to do something, even if it means giving up a ton of picks and having to OVERPAY for talent they can’t get elsewhere (see Dustin Penner).
    If anyones out of touch, it’s you.

  • BigWorm

    To all you DL haters out there (Anthony, Cristobal, et al)…I don’t think you really are as big a Kings fan as you say your are. I believe you’re sticking around hoping for the day that DL gets fired so you can tell us all you were right. Why bother? You’ve made your point, you don’t like the guy. Enough already. Dave Taylor works for the Stars…profess your love for the Kings glory days by becoming a Stars fan and see if he can help build a winner over there. Me, I’ll take the rebuild, remain patient, hope things work out. If it doesn’t, oh well. I’ve been a Kings fan my whole life too. And with that comes a whole lot of disappointment and anguish. If DL fails, he’s just another one to add to the list.

  • JDM

    cristobal, you mean… L. Ron lied??? There goes my life savings, whoops. Point taken, but you can’t spit in the face of every exhibition of good faith to ones followers based on the scammers of the world.

    Besides, what DL promises is actually within the realm of reason ;) .

  • Matt R

    JDM – Thanks for the answer. I had to sift through pages of mindless drivel to find it. Much appreciated! I guess they’ll be certain to hit the minimum then!

    Everyone else – Wow, calm down!

  • cristobal

    JDM – it was good for a laugh. your life savings…..good one.

  • yesitscal

    cristobal said:

    mrbrett, i have seen both kopitar and malkin and i play hockey.

    Andruw Jones plays baseball, doesn’t he?

  • JDM

    Captain Material,

    On Avery vs Corvo – Avery never punched a waitress in the face and followed up with a kick in the stomach.

    Avery’s return should have been better. I always, and still do like the guy. A friend of mine spoke with Avery not too long ago and Avery told him that he wanted to come back to L.A. (I’m guessing mostly for the club scene) but L.A. didn’t want him. I guess he was one of those guys DL referred to weeks ago as wanting to play here for the beaches.

  • David

    Cristobal,

    Shouldn’t you be training for your upcoming season with the Blackhawks instead of incessantly blogging on this website?

  • David

    Cristobal,

    Shouldn’t you be training for your upcoming season with the Blackhawks instead of incessantly blogging on this website?

  • David

    Cristobal,

    Shouldn’t you be training for your upcoming season with the Blackhawks instead of incessantly blogging on this website?

  • Captain Material

    Yeah JDM, I was trying not to get too graphic with slandering Corvo, but appreciate you doing it for me. :)

    I like Avery. Just wish he could find a way not to make so much trouble for himself. This team doesn’t have guys like in DET to keep him managable.

  • JDM

    Wow anon… harsh…

    I was thinking the opposite, that Rich is sitting back, laughing at all of us feverishly arguing with each other.

    And if he were censoring, I wouldn’t be able to read your post about censoring. Sometimes posts get back up and show up 30-60 minutes late. Anonymous posts have to be approved by Rich, but I’m that just means he has to physically click a button before the blog will post them. Not censorship; mechanics.

  • cristobal

    captain material – you’ve got me on the ropes and i’m about to give up……i’ll pause for the loud cheer.

    besides being constantly mis-paraphrased (when did i ever say malkin lacked leadership or wasn’t well rounded? I only said i believed kopitar was more well rounded and a better leader), my arguements themselves get so twisted by most people hell bent on defending Lombardi.

    I believe Taylor was better in the draft than Lombardi. I’ve consistently listed the players he drafted to show that he found NHL caliber players in early and later rounds. Because I list Lilja, who just won a cup, doesn’t mean I think he’s going to comparable to Doughty. Show me the picks Lombardi made outside of the top 10 overall that are great: the list is very small.

    I have never once complained that Avery was traded. I have complained that Avery, Sopel, Stuart, and Modry were traded for very, very, very little. If you’re high on Marc Andre Cliche, you’re just high.

    I like Taylor’s tenure as GM. I feel he should have fired Murray after the final game of the 2003-2004 season when in Luc Robitaille’s final game they couldn’t hold a 3-1 lead with less than 90 seconds to play. I believe Murray is the reason Allison left, Palffy left, and Blake left. That’s my opinion. If you consider not only Taylor’s drafts, but his trades I believe there is no comparison. Look at what he did with the corner he was in with Rob Blake (deadmarsh, miller and a 1st round pick, plus the other junk like Aulin).

    There are no meaningless moves in the NHL. You’re either getting better or getting worse. You may say that many of the horrible moves were meaningless, but I don’t believe that. Crawford, especially, did only damage to this team. Point in case is leaving Bernier in for 7 goals against in the Boston game. I don’t know if you remember, but Patrick Roy walked away from Montreal after being subjected to that very thing.

  • cristobal

    Anonymous – i can’t think of anything more foolish than reading things you don’t want to read. There are plenty of articles on this blog alone, and yet you just want to complain about us….

    That’s like me watching the Korean channels and complaining that I can’t understand why they keep talking….

  • cristobal

    yesitscal – could you explain your andrue jones joke to me??? i don’t get it.

  • JDM

    @ voice of reason’s Malkin vs Kopitar stats and Captain Materials assessment –

    No one is going to argue that Kopitar has put up better numbers, but just like in the Tukonen argument (funny that cristobal is on the other side concerning Kopitar) numbers are not everything. I’ve only seen Malkin play maybe 20 full games, and other than that just highlights and reading up, but I think Kopitar has more intangible, which is why I agreed with cristobal in my assessment of him over Malkin. I really think one can not ignore the different teams they play for when comparing their stats. Sure, VoR you used teams Goal averages, but Malkin not only plays in a conference that favors more wide open hockey and is widely agreed to be less competative than the west.

    You want to talk stats…

    Why not compare divisions?

    If we don’t count the GA of Pitts or Los Angeles, Pittsburgs division overall gave up 121 more goals over the last two seasons than L.A.’s, widely considered one of if not the toughest division in the league. 121 more goals against (49 more this year, 72 last) amounts to a maximum of 363 points more to go around.

    If we go by conference, the eastern conference had 333 more goals scored against than the west (again, not counting Pitts or L.A. GA) last year, and this year, 255 more in the east, for a total of 588 more goals scored against in the east, amounting to an extra potential 1764 points to go around, or an extra 59.8 per team when counting 30 teams in, or 60.8 if counting 29 (not sure which is correct for this stat comparison).

    If you think Malkin’s game is more well rounded than Kopitars, that he has more intangibles, is a better defensive forward, is better in the locker room, then fine. But don’t throw stats in my face, tell me that Pens fans like Malkin a lot (duh), and say that based on that it’s totally wrong to think Kopitar a better player than Malkin. Sure, Malkin stepped it up when Crosby went down and scored the bulk of his points then, but he wa invisible in the finals, and hasn’t carried a team on his back for as many games as Kopitar has had to. Kopitar also has done it a full year and a half younger than Malkin.

    If it will satisfy you for me to concede that Malkin has a slight edge over Kopitar in terms of production than Malkin, fine, I’ll give you that. But I think not putting them on similar grounds in terms of overall game and talent is just as much typical Kings pessism as it is my homerism to think him better.

  • JDM

    cristobal, Capt Material was quoting me as saying Malkin lacked leadership and such.

  • cristobal

    Anonymous – If you want to read a blog with good articles and few posts (though i will pop up there) go to Gann Matsuda’s site ‘Frozen Royalty’

    http://frozenroyalty.net/

  • JDM

    crud… too much typing today, obviously that first sentence should read “No one is going to argue that **Malkin** has put up better numbers than Kopitar”

  • yesitscal

    cristobal said:

    yesitscal – could you explain your andrue jones joke to me??? i don’t get it.

    Did anyone else have trouble catching my drift? If so, then I’ll write a detailed explanation…

  • JDM

    Sorry to post like a junky, but to add on as an example, are you going to fault Gaborik his insane talent because he plays in a system that won’t allow him to put up the numbers he obviously would if he played in a system like Pittsburgs? Comparing players is tough, and some statements are ridiculous, but saying Kopitar is definately not the player Malkin is, is about as wrong as any opinion is if an opinion on a subject that can ultimately is a matter of opinion can ever be wrong.

  • 28 KINGS

    “I believe Taylor was better in the draft than Lombardi. I’ve consistently listed the players he drafted to show that he found NHL caliber players in early and later rounds. Because I list Lilja, who just won a cup, doesn’t mean I think he’s going to comparable to Doughty. Show me the picks Lombardi made outside of the top 10 overall that are great: the list is very small.”

    cristobal,
    you can’t compare draft yet, it’s way too early to judge him on this. DL has only been at this 2 years (his first draft was all Al Murrays team of scouts). Taylor never seemed to see the real holes this team always had, young dmen and goalies. He always seem to draft wingers in the first few round and then it seem to be a grab bag of “what left” and more soft Euros. I still believe that Taylor was afraid to make another “Jamie Storr” goalie mistake and that’s why we never drafted anyone worth a damn in the first 2 or 3 rounds. Aside from Bernier (I’ll give Taylor that one), look at our goalie and defensmen stable since DL took over…see a BIG DIFFERENCE? In 2 years DL has done something no other Kings GM ever did. Let this thing play out for a few years when DL picks are playing, then compare the two.

  • cristobal

    This is from 97-98. Top 10 scorers for the season. I think it also illustrates a bit about Dave Taylor. Within 3 years 3 of these players were kings. Its a bit shocking to realize how consistently productive Stumpel was, too.

    Scoring leaders
    Note: GP = Games Played, G = Goals, A = Assists, Pts = Points
    Player Team GP G A PTS
    Jaromir Jagr Pittsburgh 77 35 67 102
    Peter Forsberg Colorado 72 25 66 91
    Pavel Bure Vancouver 82 51 39 90
    Wayne Gretzky NY Rangers 82 23 67 90
    John LeClair Philadelphia 82 51 36 87
    Zigmund Palffy NY Islanders 82 45 42 87
    Ron Francis Pittsburgh 81 25 62 87
    Teemu Selanne Anaheim 73 52 34 86
    Jason Allison Boston 81 33 50 83
    Jozef Stumpel Los Angeles 77 21 58 79

  • cristobal

    JDM – whoah, that stat thing has my head spinning. You’re right, however, in that I have no problem if someone disagrees with my opinion about him possibly being the 3rd best player in the league, or possibly betten than Malkin right now. I’m not going to say they’re wrong. I just disagree.

    Don’t these people get why Lombardi’s doing what he is? He wants Tevares next year.

  • yesitscal

    cristobal said:

    yesitscal – could you explain your andrue jones joke to me??? i don’t get it.

    Sorry. Did this go over everybody’s head? If I was too esoteric for people to understand I can give you all a detailed explanation.

  • JDM

    “He wants Tevares next year.”

    Me 2. I’m happy if we improve, I’m happy with Tavares. One more franchise talent at forward is all this team lacks.

  • yaknow88

    Be patient Kings fans. I know its frustrating hearing everyone around the league say how we are destined to finish last in the western conference. I know its frustrating that we have a defense right now which looks way too young and has nobody to run a power play. However, perhaps for once we are actually building a team to be good for years to come. We have done the free agent route and the quick fix route before and what did it get us. A great run in the early 90′s and a few decent seasons in 01-02. Lets just enjoy the Kopitar’s, Browns’s, Osullivan’s and Johnson’s and maybe we will surprise some teams this year.

  • BringBackKingston

    ok, i’ll take a stab at comparing DL’s draft record with the sharks vs. DT’s draft record. Obviously, at this time it’s premature to rate DL’s draft record with the Kings in terms of players who actually made it to the NHL. Rating the potential is for another post.

    to compare their records i looked at how many of the players each drafted played over 100 NHL games. as i understand it, 100 games is generally considered the bench mark for determining whether or not a player “made it” as a career NHLer.

    DT
    GM from ’97-’06
    I reviewed the ’97 to ’05 draft.
    As of the end of the season, there are 15 players in 9 drafts with over 100 NHL games.
    12 1st round draft picks – 7 with +100 games

    DL
    GM from ’96-’03
    Reviewed the ’96 to ’02 draft.
    As of the end of the season, there are 15 players in 7 drafts with over 100 NHL games.
    8 1st round draft picks – 7 with +100 games

    To recap:
    DT with 15 players in 9 drafts with over 100 NHL games.
    DL with 15 players in 7 drafts with over 100 NHL games.

    at the end of the day, the #s might chance slightly as there are players who haven’t reached 100 games but are on their way.

  • BringBackKingston

    and just for more fun with records here are playoff records…

    DT
    97-98 lost rd 1
    98-99 out of playoffs
    99-00 lost rd 1
    00-01 lost rd 2
    01-02 lost rd 1
    02-03 out of playoffs
    03-04 out of playoffs
    05-06 out of playoffs

    DL
    96-97 out of playoffs
    97-98 lost rd 1
    98-99 lost rd 1
    99-00 lost rd 2
    00-01 lost rd 1
    01-02 lost rd 2
    02-03 out of playoffs (DL fired mid season)

    blame the #s on hockeydb.com

  • JonG

    Those are some very interesting stats, BringBackKingston. However I wonder if 100 games is the right cutoff point. Jeff Jillson was pretty much a bust yet even he managed 140 NHL games.

    How would the draft picks compare if you used 200 games as the yardstick?

    The funny thing is, as much as DL craves high draft picks it turns out that several of his middle and late-round picks have been real winners — especially the goalies.

  • wavesinair

    JDM said: cristobal said: 28 KINGS said: Captain Material said: David said: BigWorm said: yesitscal said: anon said: ryan oliver said: Anonymous said: petey said: Irish Pat said: JonG said: psycho said: nykingfan said: ChrisH said: andre norway said: Duracell said: mrbrett7 said: George said: voice of reason said: me said: Matt R said: Duckhunter said: EJ said: JDM said: cristobal said: 28 KINGS said: Captain Material said: David said: BigWorm said: yesitscal said: anon said: ryan oliver said: Anonymous said: petey said: Irish Pat said: JonG said: psycho said: nykingfan said: ChrisH said: andre norway said: Duracell said: mrbrett7 said: George said: voice of reason said: me said: Matt R said: Duckhunter said: EJ said:

    My head just exploded. I love it.

    Whoever says kings fans aren’t passionate only needs to take one look at this blog. Rich, when we actually start winning, you will need a server upgrade to handle the load.

  • BringBackKingston

    JonG,

    currently…

    DT with 9 players with +200 NHL games in 9 drafts.
    DL with 11 players with +200 NHL games in 7 drafts.

  • anthony

    wavesinair,
    Hey, did you not forget someone on that list.

    All this back and forth stuff is great. Just great.
    Almost as great as the way I’ll feel when Dumbo gets fired.
    ALMOST!

  • nykingfan

    Thanks Captain Material.

    I don’t understand the post going off on Rich. This is a great site and he allows us to debate all things Kings. Why would he be Anthony or cristobal? Rich has always come across as a knowledgeable hockey man..why create your alter-ego with those 2?

    I think Anthony is a true Kings fan who just likes to stir up debate. I don’t recall him ever being rude to those who disagree with him…which is many. He gets the subject going with a crazy “out there” post. Keep it going Anthony! When the Kings win the cup, you’ll be celebrating the same as the rest of us.

    Cristobal you have some serious issues dude. You think you know everything about everything and all of us are beneath you in terms of hockey knowledge and intelligence. You played hockey so therefore that gives you inside info the rest of us aren’t privy to. Who are you Al Bundy? “I played high school football” Many of us have played hockey on various levels. It’s possible some of us may be even as good, or heaven forbid, better than you.
    You critique other peoples grammar and writing skills. Who the freak do you think you are?
    If you have an opinion, give it and get the hell out. Don’t tell me you know more than I do. You know absolute jack*shit. Cut out your pseudo elitist attitude and learn to deal with people who have a different opinion on things than you do.
    I don’t know what you do for a living..and frankly I could give a shit less, but I hope you are able to deal with people better in a face to face setting than blogging.
    Sorry to my fellow regulars on this blog for taking up your valuable reading time with this shit, but this was really starting to piss me off.
    And now back to all things Kings.

  • wavesinair

    captain, we all get frustrated, but there’s no excuse for bringing this blog down to a personal level. cristo, there are well over 100 comments and it seems like half are yours. It’s time to chill out a little.

  • anthony

    nykingfan,

    If we win it all, I will see to it personally to buy you a cold one. I’ll even fly you out here. I admire a person with your geography, being such a great fan.

    As a matter fact, all of you, (even voice of rerason), drinks are on me.

    Cristobal, you’re critique on DL is right on. But that’s about it. Your other comments – I’ll hold my judgment.

  • JDM

    nykingsfan:
    “Don’t tell me you know more than I do. You know absolute jack*shit.”

    That’s just comical dude. I’m constantly arguing in constrast to cristobal. He has harsh opinions, as does anthony, but neither as far as I have read bash people on a personal level…to be honest… you started the name calling with “cristobal I’ve come to the conclusion, you are clueless”

    That’s where all the name calling, I play hockey, you suck I’m right blah blah blah started. I don’t care if you like him or anyone or agree or whatever, but I get frustrated when people bash someone for saying they are better at something, like its not right to do, and then turn around and throw more ad hominen right back in to the fold.

    If you want to rag on someone for being pompous, it can only help your case to come off as humble.

  • yesitscal

    I loved Dave Taylor as a player! So so many years he was the soul of this franchise, but as a GM all he ever proved was that he was very good at being mediocre.

  • JonG

    BringBackKingston: Thanks for the info. If DL can get 1.5 quality NHL-ers each year in the draft, that’s pretty encouraging. However, his track record with free agent signings is poor (at least with the Kings) so I’m still a bit skeptical about where all this is leading.

  • yesitscal

    It’s very easy to spend someone else’s money. Remember that Lombardi has a budget, as every manager in every line of work does, and he has to be fiscally responsible to his employer. The economy is in the mess it’s in now because people lived up to their means rather than a little below it, so when the real estate bubble burst some got ruined. Spend wisely and shrewdly and don’t throw money around like it’s water, which we’re also short of these days…

  • Jan Marek’s id

    Ajoh Kings fans!

    Don’t forget about me.

    Jan Marek.

    I was the centrepiece to the Avery to Dallas deal. Cliche was a prospect..

    I was the prize.

    Dean worked his A$$ off to sign me. Traveling to Europe last year to meet. Instead, I decided to sign with Metallurg Magnitogorsk of the KHL, where I led the team in winning this years’ European Hockey League championship.

    In Russia, they pay you better, the government doesn’t take any taxes from your paycheck. And, the girls are both beautiful and easy. (not to mention, they love hockey players’ {money})

    Maybe I come back to LA when they are better. And, I want Dean to be the man in charge, when I come.

    Go Kings, Dobre!

  • BringBackKingston

    JonG,
    no doubt that his FA agent signings haven’t been stellar even when you consider the role they were brought in to play. this area has been his weakest so far.

    the only sugar i put on it, though, is that in the grand scheme of things it hasn’t really mattered yet. even if the FAs played up to or beyond expectations, the kings would still have had a hard time making the playoffs. or even if a top FA signed with us, i still see the kings struggling because there were too many holes.

    now, i will rate his ability to sign quality FA when this team gets good enough to challenge for a playoff spot. can he sign a FA to help put us over the top when it really matters? we’ll find out over the next few years. and if he can’t do it, we won’t be the first team in history to fire the person who got us to the dance but couldn’t get us to dance with the prom queen.

    on a side note, he has definitely drafted a lot of potential. DL passes on drafting for now. his grade goes up or down depending on the # that turn into true NHLers.

    i’d even rate DL as passing on trading right now. up until this summer his trades were based on building up youth. he did a good job at this. now, how the players he traded for this summer pan out will cement his trading ability. i think this area could have a bigger impact on how long DL remains as GM than his past FA signings.

  • Bob Bobson

    Wow, just wow.

  • Eric K

    wow, this is remarkable. i think i regret reading all those comments, but it was a lot of fun.

    my 2 cents: glad Deano’s being aggressive. don’t see this meaning too much in the grand scheme of things, but i believe in what he’s doing. the Kings under Dave Taylor were going (almost) nowhere, and we’re definitely trending up– if not this year, than next.

    Cristobal: you say Lombardi in San Jose wasn’t a big deal? San Jose has become a perennial contender since his hiring, and i’m gonna need a lot more evidence to prove that wasn’t simply being in the right place at the right time. i could say more, but it’s all been said already and then some.

    also, how is four good players and a couple decent prospects “promising”? when Lombardi started he had what was somewhere a skeleton and a base. the foundation comes a lot.

    i’d love to see Sully signed soon, because the past history of the hard-luck Kings has given me paranoia. having said that, i’m not gonna worry too much about it unless Rich or a major news source tells me i should be.

    i believe we’re not letting Kopi, JMFJ, or Bernier go anywhere, because they (along with Dustin Brown) WILL be our Fab Four for years to come.

    and i think that this blog is not being censored, but nice try. even for a Kings fan, that conspiracy theory is ridiculous. the people who really want Kings coverage aren’t coming to read Anthony or Cristobal, and if criticism really did increase hits you’d get posted. maybe you’re attacking others or using profanity? i don’t know, but i highly doubt someone has it in for you, “Anon.”

    and because i need an escape from the endless Brett Favre coverage on ESPN (hey, you know he’s a Jet now?), i’ll dwell on this (shamelessly stolen from Quisp): It is 65 days, 21 hours, 27 minutes and 14 seconds until Saturday, October 11, 2008 at 7:00:00 PM (Los Angeles time). things can only get more interesting until then!

  • Quisp

    If I knew the exact day that training camp opened, I’d be posting the countdown to THAT. I can’t wait…

    Also, I think the reports of the Kings forfeiting the ’08-’09 season are premature.

  • JonG

    BringBackKingston,

    I agree with most of your thoughts but I disagree with the comment about how his FA signings to date haven’t really mattered.

    Even though we were never going to be Cup contenders over the past couple of years, I do think the Kings should have done a better job of icing a competitive team. Just because you’re not reaching for the top of the mountain doesn’t mean you should stop climbing completely. That produces a defeatist mentality, which I suspect is a big reason why we can’t find anyone to fill our open roster spots on defense. Even Modry wasn’t willing to sign up for more futility.

  • Eric K

    sorry, it was supposed to say “the foundation comes a lot from Lombardi.”

  • Duckhunter

    wavesinair, that post on he said, she said was awesome. I agree, no matter the opinion, we are all Kings fans.
    I know I would have a beer or drink with any of you cats at a Kings game.

  • mrbrett7

    I think Cristobal may need some milk and cookies from Mommy…this place is getting worse than LGK.

  • cristobal

    I first would like to say that I went for a long walk with my girlfriend, made some pizza and salad, and logged back on and was laughing my butt off at wavesinair’s post about the he said, he said, he said.

    Then I read further and was utterly shocked to read nykingsfan’s “unibomber”-like manifesto. Come on nykingsfan, lighten up. I may get a little prickly at times, but I’m not trying to drive anybody to madness.

    As for the posts that don’t like what I’m writing and don’t understand why they keep reading these comments, I don’t know what to tell you, other than, “don’t read them.”

    JDM, quisp, J and a few others are quality debaters (and i’m sure quality people) and maybe i should not respond to some of the others as it seems they just lose it.

    Bringbackkingston – I disagree. I think the best way to make this comparison is to take in to consideration draft positioning, and who these players are today. Since they were all drafted 96 or later, none of them have retired for age reasons. Injury alone would be an acceptable reason for being out of the game at this point.
    Another angle to this that should be followed up on is this: I had also posted that I would like to see both of their drafts compared as far as what they did after the 1st round. I’m gonna look some stuff up and get back to you.
    One last thing to consider is the state of the team when Taylor and Lombardi took over their respective teams. The playoff and league finish comparisons are skewed, in my opinion, because the Kings were coming out of bankruptcy and the sell-off that crippled them for a 2-3 years.
    Also, Dave Taylor had 1 pick in the top 3, Lombardi had 3.

    JonG – I believe you are crediting Lombardi with drafting Nabakov and Toskala, he was Assistant GM when they were drafted.

    And as far as me saying “i play hockey”. I guess that may sound arrogant (not as arrogant as psycho’s attack) and I apologize for saying “just because you play, doesn’t mean you don’t suck” to mrbrett. Although I will point out you could have said the same thing to me in resoponse, i would have accepted that. I guess I wrote that because i wanted to point out that I’m not judging things from a couch, having never played the game. I’ve never been arrogant about my skills, or lack of them. If whoever is still reading this cannot figure out that I love competitive sports, let me just say that I love to play the game in my mind, I love to see a goal before it happens, and I love to root for the underdog – the guy nobody believe’s in.

    There are many who say I’m nuts for my views on Kopitar. They list Iginla, Lacavalier, Zetterburg and others…..thats fine. If you were to tell me that the core of this team is going to be doughty, brown, o’sullivan, and JJ….like they are the one’s to build around….i’d say i disagree because unless Tavares turns out to be better than Kopitar, he’s the cornerstone. I also wonder if those people that are calling me nuts about this don’t find themselves questioning their own opinions. Malkin was on the only team that gave Detroit any competition in the Stanley Cup Finals. The kings were 2nd worst on a technicality last year, and 3rd worst team the prior year (all since lombardi came in).

  • nykingfan

    cristobal
    lousy day going on yesterday. I apologize.

  • mrbrett7

    The core of this team is Kopitar, Brown, O’Sullivan, Boyle (God Willing), Johnson, Doughty (God Willing), Teubert (God Willing) and Bernier.

    Kopiter is by far and away the best player on this team Cristobal, and I was not arguing with you on that. He also has quite a bit of work to do in many areas. He can’t win a faceoff to save his life, and until he does that, he is not an elite center. He is weak defensively in the corners, and timid, easily knocked off the puck when retrieving it down low, and if he could play with the same fire he does in the offensive zone, he’d be fine. He gets lazy defensively and loses his “man” far too often…these are all VERY fixable. These are all things I get all over my centers about having played defense for 23 years…I see a center loafing it in our zone…I aim for their head when I’m shooting from the point (j/k there).

    Seriously…he is as good as anyone in the league, but he has quite a bit of work to do…he’s also only been in the league 2 years…give him time.

  • Irish Pat

    Wow. Anyone who says Kings fans are fair-weather fans are completely ignorant and deluded. Go Kings! It is funny that we are arguing amongst ourselves over the direction of this franchise. I’m sure if anyone was dumb enough to attack the Kings on this site we would have a ton of feedback from the usual rogue’s gallery defending this team. You guys are awesome and I’m sure when the team starts winning that will galvanize the fans on this site into a more positive debate. Cheers to Rich and cheers to the fans who take the time to post their opinions and perspectives.

  • JonG

    Cristobal,

    You’re right about Nabakov and Toskala. I thought Lombardi was GM in 1994/95 when those guys were drafted, but apparently he was only the Assistant GM.

    Now I’m bummed again.

  • wavesinair

    Will AEG really stay out of the day-to-day decisions, especially those involving player personnel? After all, they have a track record of dictating player personnel moves. Moreover, will AEG really give Lombardi everything he needs to build the Kings into a Stanley Cup contender, or will they shortchange him financially like they did to Taylor when they handed him a budget that was capped $5 million under the NHL-mandated salary cap?

    Although it is true that throwing money at the roster does not always prove to be successful, AEGs actions placed the Kings under even greater limitations than many teams in terms of acquiring talent. And after LEIWEKE ADMITTED that the Kings have been rather MISERLY prior to this season, it is absolutely clear that AEG tied Taylors hands throughout his tenure as GM and that has contributed greatly to their failure.

    One can only hope Lombardi actually receives the autonomy needed to make the Kings a perennial Stanley Cup contender. But to reach that goal, he must be given the sole authority to make trades, sign free agents, draft young prospects and much more, all without interference or meddling from ownership.

    Leiweke said that all this would be the case. But as the saying goes, ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. As such, with AEG still holding the ownership keys, and in light of their less-than-poor track record, heavy skepticism and disbelief should rule the day until they PROVE that they have turned over a new leaf.

    Any of this sounding familiar? Like its happening now? Well

    It was written by Gann Matsuda on April 21, 2006. Almost 2 1/2 years ago. The more things change

    I went back and read a bunch of stuff when DL was hired. As I have said, AEG is the main problem here. I can see now that they are doing to Lombardi what they did to Taylor. The DL plan, if you go back and read, was never to do a FULL rebuild! 2 1/2 years later and theyre selling a lost season? And youre buying it? I repeat; it was never the plan to go totally young! Its a total snow job. Ownership should always strive to be competitive. Some years will be good, some bad; not ALL bad. We need more veteran leadership but now DLs hands are tied and we are all probably going to suffer for it. DL is doing everything he can under the circumstances, and I really hope that he pulls it off, but I would be remiss not to question the motivations of ownership. I wish Dave Taylor would write a book about his experiences with AEG.

    mrbrett7 said: This is what most of you don’t get about AEG, and why I absolutely LOVE them. Yes, they may have tight purse strings, BUT AT LEAST THEY HAVE A PURSE.

    Wow. Do you really believe that? Wow.

  • mrbrett7

    Yes, Waives…I do.

    REALLY think about it. How long have you been around this franchise. Re-read my post.

    Jack Kent Cooke…didn’t give one crap about this team and was more concerned about selling tickets than anything else.

    Buss…didn’t care about this team one bit.

    McNall…yes, wanted to win so much that he bankrupted the franchise and the franchise almost folded.

    Sidowitz…should never have been able to buy the franchise in the first place, and the Kings actually went out of business (yes, they literally did for a day) under his ownership. The NHL actually had to take over operations of the club under him.

    AEG…they have made mistakes, and plenty of them. But, under their tenure, this club has had growth that they should have had 40 years ago.

    Get the picture?

  • wavesinair

    We’ve had growth? AEG owned Kings, 9 years – 3 playoff appearances – the last 5 years no playoffs (worse than the post mcnall era). You call that growth? You can say the words over and over, but the scoreboard is what matters. Period. AEG is the devil. ;)

  • Anonymous

    Dombardo you are a joke…Did you also warn the Red Wings not to be in the Stanley Cup this year or we’ll kick their ass.

  • Steve-O

    A cardboard person cut out with kitty scissors is more intimidating than Dean Lombardi.

  • anthony

    Well, I’m glad to see most of you guys finally come around and see things my way.

    I mean, what other outlook is there.

  • Daniel

    Some earlier post suggested Mr. Lombardi made these comments in an ‘obscure’ publication. Custance also writes for The Sporting News and his piece is being brought up in many other publications:
    http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/LA-Kings-GM-Dean-Lombardi-keeps-his-pimp-hand-st;_ylt=AhDE46D.hwaKcgY18YsCDMZ7vLYF?urn=nhl,98901

  • JDM

    wavesinair, good stuff digging up that article. AEG is the problem.

    I see one difference here however than with Taylor. Taylor was definately hamstrung, not only with money, but with mandates to make the playoffs. A full rebuild may not have been the plan two years ago when DL was hired, but I think when he was DL was given the same mandate that Taylor was given for so many years, “Stay competative, make the playoffs at all costs.” This “full rebuild” however seems to be motivated by DL, and not AEG. For once, it seems like the GM had a plan, presented it to ownership, and got them on board. I think he did this by telling them he would save them money for a year or two by staying at the cap floor. I think if DL had said “oh yeah, let me bring in 3 $4-5 mill this year FA and we have a shot at the playoffs, then AEG would have opened up the check books for it. I think DL finally convinced them that was a stupid alternative to a full rebuild, and sucking up a “lost” season. If anything, I get the sneaking suspicion (really stupid one) that DL threw the last season in order to prove to ownership his plan was better than the sign as many FA’s, trade youth and vets and lets pray we slip in at number 8 and get atleast one round of playoff profits in our coffers plan. For once, our GM seems to be cautiously leading AEG by his own puppet strings in the guise of ‘helping’ them by cutting costs, instead of just dancing for them.

    I really think that while yes, AEG is cheap, and its easy to assume they mandated “stay as close to the floor as possible!”, that has never been their contention. They have never spent to the maximum, but also forked over for some names in the hopes of the playoffs. I think DL is brilliant in that to me he’s ‘fooled’ AEG into getting on board with his rebuild, all the while making them think it was their idea and selling them on it by keeping us at the floor. I’m hoping by saving them tons of cash this year, next year he can ask for a big favor and convince them to pay up for Kopi and JJ.

    All speculation, but from DL’s word, actions, appearance and energy, as well as considering AEG’s sordid past, this is the line of reasoning that makes sense to me.

    Alas anthony, one more outlook to add to the pile of “not anthony’s” outlooks.

  • cristobal

    nykingsfan – hey buddy, i hope today’s a better, new day. to be honest, my life is not exactly in the fast lane right now (out of work) and all this posting (diary of a madman) actually helps keep me from stressing about the serious things in life. Odd, but true. And, i also apologize for any rudeness on my part.

    In truth, I am a very frustrated Kings fan and a frustrated NHL fan. Since the lockout I have had less and less interest in a sport I could not stop thinking about only 4 or 5 years ago. In 06-07 I caught less kings games on tv than ever before and watched the playoffs only. I still enjoy the playoffs for the most part. Then 07-08 i watched even less regular season, and followed the playoffs from a bit of a distance, only really getting into the finals in terms of viewing. I probably haven’t seen as much of O’Sullivan, Johnson, and even Kopitar as many of you have. But, I believe I can still recognize genius on the ice, and that Kopitar has it.

    Mrbrett, I will not argue with you about Kopitar needing to get better in some areas, but Kings fans really have to remember how bad this team is. Instead of helping Kopitar, and granted they couldn’t have known how he’d adjust to the NHL, they’ve traded away the players that are truly able to perform (even to a minimum) in the league. Lombardi’s done nothing to surround him with help, other than signing Stuart, and in my mind Modry.

    I’m sure everyone hates to see the team struggle. If they are competitive and still lose, ok. But the end of A Murray’s tenure as coach was a breaking point in a way. Can anyone remember that last game of 03-04 when they lost to the sharks in overtime? They were up 3-1 in san jose with 90 seconds to go. Then there was the season opener in boston a couple years ago. The kings go up 3-0 and end up losing the game. Then the season opener in Dallas, Garon’s first game, the kings go up 4-0 and completely fall apart. I’m sick, absolutely sick, of watching it. Last season they open with a win against the Ducks in London (Anshutz idiotic O2 arena which cost billions) and then get tonked the next game. To make matters worse, they allowed that cretin Crawford to leave an 18 year old Bernier in for 7 goals against in a loss to Boston. I would have fired him that night.

    I’m awfully hard on Lombardi and I never point out his successes. The Johnson trade looks pretty good. The O’Sullivan trade looks pretty good. Signing Stuart was pretty good, so was S Thornton and even Ivanans. But I cannot get over this Cloutier thing. I told this young goalie I played pick-up with at the time that he was no good. I swear, if they guy couldn’t help Vancouver do anything in the post season, what would lead one to believe he could in any way do anything right for the Kings. It just shows a lack of awareness, I think.

    Likewise, I wasn’t in line with the Crawford signing, but I at least thought Lombardi must be better equipped to make that decision. He must know Crawford and know he can help this team. Did he? Did he know Crawford at all? Did he get advice? Because Crawford was a waste of two years, and after A Murrays last 2 years, thats 4 years of going in reverse.

    I truly believe it is wrong for this guy to be issuing his ‘warning’ in the media. All we want as fans of this club is for them to get better starting the day 07-08 ended. I, too, want to see Doughty, Teubert, and Boyle. I feel, for some reason, that they can’t miss. I don’t want to be told Hickey, Voinov, Simmonds, Cliche, Lewis, and a few others are going to be stars in this league. I can’t hold my breathe that long and I cannot get over the past when I thought Lehoux or Papineau or Berg were going to be all-stars.

    To be honest, I’ve also found a new sports-drug. World Football (soccer). The people who scoff at this are ignorant in my opinion, so I’m not going to bother trying to sell the sport. I will just say that once i realized that there was an entirely different sports landscape out there, its hard to see what the NHL is doing and be interested. Oddly enough, it is AEG that is trying to market the sport in the USA and have, in essence, bought the sport. Because i know what football is like around the planet, I know that AEG hasn’t a clue about what they’re doing. If people think that Bettman is bad, they need to realize that the MLS commissioner is worse. He’s owned by AEG and they change the rules to suit what they want to do. At the moment, I think AEG owns only 2 teams, LA and Houston, but they originally owned almost half the league. Its a conflict of interest. The MLS may eventually pull its head out and drastically change, but I doubt it will happen with Anshutz alive.

    Dave Taylor was not a perfect GM. He made many mistakes that only occasionally are pointed out to me on this site. I don’t believe he was treated fairly, however, and I don’t believe he gets a fair shake from most of the Kings fans who want the team to get better and support what Lombardi has done. I really don’t understand why these kings fans don’t realize that it is Taylor who provided the Kings with a good core in Kopitar, Brown, Frolov, Cammalleri, and Visnovsky. I don’t know why kings fan’s don’t understand that he suffered losing Deadmarsh, Allison, and Palffy in the span of a year. Kings fans say he did nothing to strengthen the defense – he surrounded Norstrom with players to make him better, brought in Miller when blake backed him into a corner, acquired Gleason for smolinski, drafted visnovsky, corvo (who’s no angel), lilja, and Biron (who just turned out to be useless in the nhl).

    I’d better take a break…..

  • cristobal

    JDM – in your post you say that Lombardi is refusing to dance for them and that he’s in charge of the situation, to paraphrase. I take another view.

    I believe that if you consider some of these things from a professional point of view, that Lombardi, Blake, Stuart, and Cammalleri are all trying to prevent the destruction of their reputations and careers.

    I think Lombardi has made some of the worst trades and FA signings and 1 really poor coaching hire. Tearing down the team and building through the draft only will help cushion the blow to his reputation when he’s let go. I don’t know that his odds are good for being here when and if the rebuild is successful. If he’s fired, he can still blame AEG and the Kings franchise for most of the failures. Everybody knows the Kings are a no win situation, and, as he said about T Murray’s job, the hardest job in hockey.

    I believe Blake approached things the same way. His reputation was being tarnished playing here and even kings fans were saying he sucked. There is absolutely no reason he should have felt obliged to help the Kings at the trade deadline by agreeing to a deal because the last 2 years here have sullied his career. By waiting until the offseason and signing with san jose, he’s in a no lose situation because they are not going to miss the playoffs and he must know that he can still contribute to a winner, even a cup ready team.

    Why would stuart want to come back to the Kings. He was losing respect in the league and was no longer considered a decent commodity. He wasn’t missed in Boston, was he? Detroit made him an instant commodity and he’s still young. He could be with that team for 8-10 more years.

    Visnovsky was really suffering in terms of his reputation. This guy is an all-star defenseman. I’m not going to say he’s as good as Zubov, but he’s in the same mold. Visnovsky may provide Edmonton, or someone else, with a great offensive defenseman for another 5-6 years. Look at Zubov, i believe he’s 36-37.

    Cammalleri as well. All he had to look forward to here is injuries (his size) and less points. The Kings will really struggle to get the puck out of their end this year, and last year he was hampered by injury and the only true sniper for the other team to focus on. O’Sullivan was still struggling most of the season, and Brown and Kopitar were not enough, by themselves, to distract the opposition. Being in Calgary is probably only going to help his career, whereas, the Kings could only ruin him.

  • Anonymous

    Maybe Dean is using reverse psychology. By threatening other GM’s with what most on this board at least see as essentially hollow threats, maybe he is hoping some other GM tenders O’sullivan et al offers the players accept. Kind of like waving the cape at a bull. That way he can match.

    I doubt it but it seemed a funny spin on events and, really, who knows.

    MO–I agree the delays are frustrating but who really knows what is going on behind the scenes in the negotiations. I just hope DL can sign the players for reasonable contracts so we have an overall solid team (not Gretsky and 2/3 of the team comprised of below average NHL players).

  • JDM

    I kind of mentioned this in my last post, but my main knock on Taylor was that he was too eager to please ownership. He definately did his best and cared about this team. I knew Taylor’s daughter the last few years of DT’s reign, and she always conveyed to me how much of a struggle it was for him, but that he tortured himself caring about this team. I applaud Taylor for his career as a King, both on and off the ice. I still think it was his time to go. Not so much because he did a terrible job. As you mentioned, losing Allison and Deadmarsh for a full year the same year, only to put faith in both coming back and having one retire and one never return to form, was by no means his fault and was the worst thing to happen to this team in a loooong time. To me, that’s when we were crippled and haven’t come back from yet.

    But back to Taylor pleasing ownership, which is all well and good, but I find DL to be craftier than Taylor. I think DL knows how to play AEG without pandering to them as much as Taylor… maybe I’m talking out of my blow hole…

  • mrbrett7

    Cristobal…I think your having an hard time seeing the big picture here.

    When Lombardi took over, there was nothing, absolutely nothing he could do to make this team competative short term…maybe sneek in with the 8th seed, but that does nothing long term.

    Look at the big picture. No, he hasn’t done dick to help Kopitar, Brown and the others short term. He has done a hell of a lot to theoretically ensure the future of this club 5 years down the road is awfully good.

    Take a seriously look down the road 5 years from now, and tell me you don’t drool. I know you want to win now, as do I…it’s not possible, and no moves he could have made when he took over would have change that.

  • JDM

    cristobal-

    I agree that part of Lombardi’s action are covering his own a$$. Hell, he has to. But I don’t think that negates his intentions. Sure he wants to keep his job and his rep in tact, but I believe that the man wants to build something here. If he is really concerned about his rep, than making good on his word is the best thing he can do for it. I see your points with Cammalleri, Stuart, Blake and Vis. However, that doesn’t explain why we were the only other team really in the running for Stuart if Detroit wouldn’t pony up the bucks. Blake would have signed here had DL wanted him. I think DL is trying to shed old baggage, its a shame that as good as Vis was and is, he falls in to this category. I think Cammy’s vigorous arbitration told DL he wasn’t the kind of ‘character’, or as I said many many posts ago, ‘like-minded individual’ that DL is comprising this team of. I’m praying Frolov doesn’t fall into that category, because surely if anyone else to going to go he will be next. I kind of compare DL’s rebuild to writing a script or book, or making some piece of artwork, a drawing, edit of a film, writing of a song or choreographing of a dance or something, most of which are things I’ve done several times. Usually you start off with something good, fueled by a great idea. Often times, whilst in the middle of creating something that made sense when you started, you hit a roadblock. So you adjust, and hit another, you adjust again and then another. Ultimately you are left with something that doesn’t really resemble your original intentions. There may still be a lot about it that is good, but it’s not right its getting more bastardized by the day. So, do you march on and try and force an imperfect thing? No, in artistic endevours, or most matters of creating something, you have to know when its time to just scrap it all together and start fresh. That pretty much sums up the last 10 months of our franchise for me.

  • yesitscal

    The conspiracy theorists are coming out of the woodwork! Where’s the evidence that the Kings threw last season? They sure as hell didn’t do a very good job of it, did they, or they would have also thrown that last game they won so they could have had a better shot at the number one overall pick! Where’s your smoking gun???

  • cristobal

    mrbrett – I seriously disagree. I’m not hoping the Kings make the playoffs this year. I’m hoping they get Tevares. Like I said, I think you’re either getting better or you’re getting worse. I have only seen a decline in the past 2 years. The big picture, i believe, is that Lombardi’s throwing the season in order to gain high draft picks. I also see many of his free-agent signings, trades, and coaching decisions so far, as damaging. One example is Steve Bernier: I consider him a good and promising player. He was acquired by Vancouver for a 2nd and 3rd round pick this summer. This is a young player that I would like to see the Kings acquire and have around in 5 years. There is no doubt that he can play at the NHL level, unlike guys like cliche, clune, and all the later round picks Lombardi has made. I put this question out many times, but look at Lombardi’s drafts in san jose outside of the 1st round – Cheechoo (a gem, marvelous pick), Erhoff, Clowe, and Mark Smith (currently UFA). If you find others, let me know. But I don’t see Lombardi making trades that are bringing in young players able to step into a team that severely lacks talent. Besides, I still see the Stuart trade as going backwards. I feel they should have kept the 26 year old established defenseman rather than trading him for low picks, then trading the best of those for Brad Richardson. It makes no sense.

  • JDM

    Ah but see yestical, not throwing the last few games was Crawfords payback!

    Haha… this is just theory, conspriacy theorists are dead certain something fishy is going on, I’m just speculating. I’m convinced of nothing except that I like the talent we have on our first two lines and waiting in the wings. The rest is up in the air!

  • cristobal

    JDM – good points from you about the creativity and building up to an end. I’d love to sit down with you and hear about what you do, actually.

    As ever, it’s great to debate with you on this stuff….I like what you say about Taylor and how you see the big picture while kinda admitting you bury your head in the sand and just have faith…..I can’t argue with that.

    I’m still going to let you know when there is a great matchup in the English Premier League so that you can give it a chance. You may find yourself forgetting about the Kings just a little bit. Plus, football is almost year round….

    Did you look up the book I mentioned, or are you interested in some that are very good? Maybe you don’t have time, but if you like good reads, let me know….

  • cristobal

    The real conspiracy would be – How did Tampa tank so bad??? They lost Lacavalier, sure, but come on…..I don’t see how they were that bad…….

    Also, there is no conspiracy involving the Kings last year, really. Like JDM said, Crawford’s revenge…..although I don’t know what he needed revenge for. I just see it as another Lombardi blunder. Firing Crawford would have likely sealed last place, if only for the disorganization that follows a shake-up. It would have improved the Kings while they got worse in the standings…..much like they are going to suffer in the standings this year, but hopefully be the better for it by giving the young guys experience…..(I did say hopefully, it could also damage these young guys…..)

  • JDM

    Always appreciate a good book. I forget which one you recommended before? I’ve got pleanty of time to read, atleast for the next two weeks… especially during jury duty next week! Shoot me an email so we don’t bother everyone else with our non-kings nonsense… murrayman33@yahoo.com.

    I’ll give EPL a shot, but I’ve gotta be honest, it’s never been my favorite sport. I’ve been to one pro soccer game several years ago on 4th of July, it was mroe fun than I expected. I was in London last December and an englishman in a bar invited me to an EPL game, but it was on the day I was leaving. I had a good argument with him about the NHL vs. EPL (which I know very little about, him being the first person to really tell me anything about it). I think it’s really intruiging that they fit so many teams into an stacked, overcrowded, seemingly arena-less place like London. What is it, 15 or more teams they have in one city alone?

    Imagine the Ducks, Coyotes, Sharks and Kings all in L.A… and then some… that would build some serious rivalry!

  • Bobby

    INSIDE THE KINGS

    with Cristobal

  • JDM

    forgot to post this –

    http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=15101901&posted=1#post15101901

    Interview with Kopitar from Slovenia press. Positives and potential pitfalls…

  • cristobal

    JDM – Great interview. Makes me love Kopitar even more. I’d love to sit in a pub with him and frolov and talk for few hours. Interesting guys…..

    I’m not putting down Malkin, but I wonder if he’d have the same attitude about his entry level contract. Again, I think the Kings should rectify it now, if possible, rather than wait.

  • Quisp

    I would just like to point out that nobody — nobody, nobody, NOBODY — knows what the Kings are going to be like this season. You can read tea leaves, analyze stats, regurgitate past performance, whatever, and of course it is always safe to say any team will do next season basically what it did last season. Any idiot can do that. I can predict next year’s standings in sports I have never even heard of simply by parroting the previous season’s standings, and I will do more or less as well as professional pundits. You can say you’re sure the Kings will finish last, or you’re sure they won’t make the playoffs, or whatever other thing you want to be sure of, but in fact virtually anything is possible. The Kings probably won’t finish with more than 100 points. But who knows? You can say the defense is not NHL caliber. But who knows? You just don’t know. You don’t know who the Kings are going to sign between now and 10-11. You don’t know who is going to make the team. You don’t know who is going to get hurt. You don’t know. Maybe Bernier is ready. Maybe he’s not. Maybe Terry Murray will be the answer to our prayers. Maybe not. Maybe this is the year Kopitar busts out. Maybe not. Jack Johnson? Brian Boyle? Will he be rookie of the year? A total bust? There’s no way to know.

    I always think about Ken Dryden. I believe it was ROgie Vachon who was the Canadiens starter, on a great team, with maybe six or seven games left in the season, when the Canadiens decided to bring up a rookie goalie who had never played an NHL game. Ken Dryden played so well he started in the playoffs and the rest is history. (did Rogie ever play another game for the Habs? I don’t think so…but I’m not an expert.) A singularity? Maybe. (probably.) But so what? That’s sports. These things happen.

    It’s not insane or stupid or uninformed to hope that things might click and they might click this year. Any friggin thing is possible.

    It is 65 days, 2 hours, 59 minutes and 20 seconds until Saturday, October 11, 2008 at 7:00:00 PM (Los Angeles time)

  • petey

    Cristobal, what exactly does Eric Johnson have to do with the Kings? Cause he didn’t play his first year after being drafted? Whoopty-do. Not every player is the same. Hell, Doughty could come in and win the Calder. Likely? Probably not. Impossible? Not at all.
    Secondly, what didn’t you understand about the article and Dean saying he wants to get Kopitar and Johnson signed before the season starts? That to me, is trying to rectify it.
    Thirdly, the Kings have one of, if not, the best young group of young players and prospects in the league. Other teams are gonna be interested when those players come up to RFA. Dean is simply telling them “try as you may, but you’re not getting them. If you try with our players, we’re gonna do the same thing back.”. Which I have no problem with. That’s something Burke should’ve done to Lowe last off-season. Instead he cried and moaned for a year about it. DL is saying that’s not gonna happen with his team. Personally I like it.

  • anthony

    Petey,
    I like your philosophy.
    But why isn’t DL practicing what he preaches with O’Sullivan.
    Does he favor Kopitar & JJ more than Sully.
    Training Camp is only weeks away, and he’s not even close to signing him.
    This GM’s bark is worse than his bite.
    These worthless threats aren’t going to get him anywhere. And lately, other GM’s are not taking LA seriously.
    Next season, let Vancouver sign up Kopitar – then DL goes after Lukas Krijek or Mayson Raymond. This is just an example.

  • cristobal

    quisp – is that count-down getting to you? You are correct in that nobody knows what will happen. But people gamble, people make predictions, and people add up the pro’s (which the kings don’t have enough of right now) and the cons (steady goaltending and an inexperienced defense). I would love to see the Kings be able to draft Tavares. I would also like to see that accomplished by these kids playing incredibly well for their age, showing that they are going to be future all-stars, but losing by small margins because of little mistakes. I believe that you have to allow young players to make mistakes and learn. Gleason had some real shockers after being acquired in march, but he built upon his experience and is a serviceable, if not good, nhl defenseman.

    petey – what?? could you explain to me what you’re asking??? and in case you hadn’t noticed, i’ve pretty much written war and peace on this one, if you can’t figure out my point of view, i’m going to need specific questions to answer. don’t answer for me, please. that’s called a rhetorical question.

  • wavesinair

    Alright Rich, you heard Quisp; close up the blog, pack it up, shut her down, pull the plug. No one is allowed to speculate/discuss/debate/argue/suggest/guess what’s gonna happen with the kings because, as Quisp pointed out, no one can predict the future. YES, I know! I can’t believe it either! Thats just crazy talk. Fun robber.

  • BringBackKingston

    Cristobal,
    got tired waiting. here are the #s for players drafted after the 1st round who have so far played more than +200 NHL games.

    DT
    5 players with more than +200 games in 9 drafts.

    DL
    5 players with more than +200 games in 7 drafts.
    ____________________________

    DT
    4 out of 12 1st round picks have played +200 games.
    5 players drafted after the 1st round have played +200 games.

    DL
    6 out of 8 1st round picks have played +200 games.
    5 players drafted after the 1st round have played +200 games.

  • cristobal

    petey – joe piskula is also eligible to come into the league and win the calder.

  • Rob

    Can we all just please stop responding in any way to those few clueless idiots (Anthony and Critobal) that leave an inordinate amount of uninformed comments. They are obviously just leaving so many comments because no one will talk to them anymore in the real world. Maybe if we all ignore them they will go away and we can all enjot this site again.

  • cristobal

    visnovsky, cammalleri, huet, kaberle, lilja, corvo………off the top of my head i count 6 players drafted outside of the 1st round and have played more than 200 games.

  • BringBackKingston

    cristobal,
    don’t go off the top of your head. all #s according to hockeydb.com. huet has only played 183 nhl games. again, it is +200 as of the end of this season. it will change over time for both DL and DT as some of their picks are approaching 200.

  • yesitscal

    anthony said:

    Petey,
    I like your philosophy.
    But why isn’t DL practicing what he preaches with O’Sullivan.
    Does he favor Kopitar & JJ more than Sully.
    Training Camp is only weeks away, and he’s not even close to signing him.

    Anthony, how do you know that Lombardi isn’t close to signing Kopitar or Johnson? How can you make such a ludicrous statement when you don’t know? People on here have said that you’re an attorney, and as an attorney you should know that it’s highly improper to make assertions you can’t back up so, please, back up what you said and give us the evidence that they’re not close to being signed.

  • Captain Material

    Here’s an article that breaks down DL’s player movement record:

    http://www.hockeyfights.com/news/52070

    Question would be what his responsibilities were or were not as assistant GM. His stregth is clearly drafting, scouting, and building from everything we know about him (on a skill basis not on a performance basis; I’m not trying to go there with that statement). So, what does he deserve credit for?

    People seem to talk about GMs as though they are the ones absolutely responsible for draft picks. In one sense, yeah, the buck stops there, but on the upstream side the rest of the staff is heavily relied on. Just two clear examples would be DL’s first draft here in the trade of Demitra basically said O’Sullivan was his guy and he was relying on the staff for the 1st round choice that came along (Lewis), and then in STL where the draft is actually not run by Pleau primarily, but by the AGM Kekalainen. Just off the top of my head…

    I appreciate BBK for doing the research on draft picks, as I was trying to find time to do that myself. DT had a couple good ones, but he sure had some stinkers in there too, so I’m not convinced by cristobal’s take that he was significantly superior to DL and already had the team in great position.

  • 28 KINGS

    cristobal,
    you criticize all of DL trades let’s looks at a few

    cammy: he wanted BIG bucks during his arbitration and didn’t get it. Did it leave him sour? Probably. If he stays with the Kings, we all know he’s going to DEMAND a 5-7 mil per year contract. He’s not worth that kind of money. He would probably get either moved (not for a 1st rnd pick due to his pending UFA)or walks for nothing next season. Our return was being able to move up and get a get another top defensive prospect. I know he’s only a prospect, but if you let things play out, we don’t get that kind of return.

    Lubo: this one was more of a mystery , but i can see how it solves a need that was lacking for us. We moved a small, though effective defenseman with a huge contract for a good center and a tough defenseman.Our defense was marshmellow soft, especially Lubo who also happened to smashed Corvo’s and Modrys turnover record by a mile. IMO this deal was also part of the new budget constraints that came from AEG, and Lubo being an older player with a new hefty contract just didn’t fit.

    Gleason Belanger for Jack Johnson- no need to explain

    Avery- had to be done

    Cloutier…BAD no question, but this deal had more to due with Crawford. You know Crawford lobbied hard to get his guy and convinced DL to trade for him. DL took a swing with the extension thinking he’d get the guy Crow convinced him he was getting, and struck out.

    Demitra- Got Sully and Lewis for a good player with consistant injury problems and a bad locker room attitude.

    There were plenty more but i hope you see my point. He has made some good deals and bad but no matter what, the Cloutier deal will always be the low mark and somehow always taint whatever good deals he makes.

  • MarkE

    To all you that are pleading patience with Dumbardo…
    How many of you have been laying out $5000 for the past 10 yrs.. another $800 for parking…plus $1200 on staples food… For those of you that can, add it up X10 and tell me who’s really losing money, on a sport they truly enjoy.

  • anthony

    Captain Material,
    Good work.
    Nice article.
    I appreciate your opinions more than I do others.

    I, for one, would love to see DL return to what he does best.
    Scouting.

    Maybe Philadelphia will take him back after AEG fires him.
    Hopefully he’ll take that Carpetbagger, Hextall, with him.

  • MarkE

    Oh and for those that say what a great job Dumbardo did at San Jose. Can you please post a picture for me with Dumbo standing next to the Stanley Cup…I guess I missed that…

  • Captain Material

    Oh, one other thing. If you’re going to give credit to DT for picking guys who do turn out to be NHL regulars, you kind of also have to take into account when he’s traded them away without getting much back.

    Trading Buchberger and Emerson (who go on to play about three years as thrid liners for us) for Audette (who turns in a 30 goal season after being traded and goes on to an all-star apearance) and Kaberle (who becomes a reguler top 6 defender) kind of takes some shine off the fact you were smart enough to pick Kaberle.

    Lilja turns into Murray, so if you like him maybe that makes sense. Huet’s return is pretty much nothing in the end.

    If you’re going to list these guys as wins for DT, you have to finish the tally and mark down how these guys ultimately became not so much in terms of helping this team.

    To be fair, Avery goes for pretty much nothing other than the improved environment for everyone else on the team (maybe that is valuable, maybe not). We have yet to see if Cammi goes for anything significant. If Tuebert turns out good, maybe that trade does make sense.

  • yesitscal

    cristobal said:

    petey – joe piskula is also eligible to come into the league and win the calder.

    Yes, but isn’t Lauri Tukonen going to win it with Dallas?

  • Quisp

    Waveinhair re: “Alright Rich, you heard Quisp; close up the blog, pack it up, shut her down, pull the plug. No one is allowed to speculate/discuss/debate/argue/suggest/guess what’s gonna happen with the kings because, as Quisp pointed out, no one can predict the future. YES, I know! I can’t believe it either! Thats just crazy talk. Fun robber.”

    I guess I should have more clear. My point is that there are a lot comments which are declarations/pronouncements/decrees or whatever you want to call them about what is certainly going to happen (e.g. the Kings will finish last, the Kings have written off this season, etc.) and just as many (usually the same comments) which belittle the opinions of others (e.g. if you think the Kings are going to do x y or z then you are insane, stupid or an AEG plant).

    I am not in any way objecting to speculation, rumination, teeth grinding, fantasizing, or any other tool of the sports fan. I practice all of the above wantonly.

    I object to the language that pretends to know better and is condescending if not outright insulting about it. Possibly I was condescending if not insulting in my objection.

    I hold out hope that the Kings will develop ahead of schedule. Such a turn of events, even if not exactly likely, is not really implausible either.

  • john

    the amount of text on this page…

    whoa.

  • cristobal

    quisp – i love you brother.

    bringbackkingston – you are correct that i should not go off the top of my head. I thought Huet was for sure over 200 games. does the research take a long time or do you have a way to search for these statistics and numbers.

    If it’s easy to do, can you find the amount of draft picks by DT and DL, outside of the first round, that are under contract in the NHL today? I will try and do that, but it may take me longer as i’ll have to go through all the draft listings on wikipedia. I think that here is where the difference will be made clear because guys like Parros, Huet, McGratton, and I think more are just now getting close to 200. One of the guys that I thought had more NHL games was Brennan (not that i think he’s a good player really) and was surprised at how few games he’s played. Something like 82. But I think when we compare these under contract players, that is where the difference lies.

    Someone else pointed out that it is up to the player to make good on their draft, and that trades should be counted against the GM in a way. The point i’m after is whether they were able to spot talent when their place in the draft came up. I’m not opposed to discussing the trading away of draft picks, but i would first like to follow up on this thread….The statistics seem to favor lombardi slightly, although when the first round is taken into account, i still think that the 3 picks Lombardi had at the 3rd position or higher, in a sense pick themselves. I don’t really credit Taylor for the Jokinen pick so much, as it is clear to most scouts and media that the top 5 is usually predictable to some extent.

  • cristobal

    Captain Material – I like where you’re going because it invites all sort of debate about trading and such….Remember though, that you have to hold Lombardi up to the light as well. He for instance traded Zyuzin and for Marchment and somehow the No. 1 pick overall is mixed up in that one. Also, Mikeal Samuelson for Adam Graves, though I think Graves did well in San Jose. I’ll have to look into Lombardi’s trades, but yes, Taylor made some poor trades, i don’t deny it. I think I pointed out recently that the Huet for Garon trade was poor. Bonk was even part of the deal.

  • cristobal

    “[He is] obviously just leaving so many comments because no one will talk to [him] anymore in the real world.” – Rob

    Have you been out there, Rob? I don’t want to talk to them, either.

  • Daniel

    “cristobal said:
    If it’s easy to do, can you find the amount of draft picks by DT and DL…?
    August 7, 2008 10:04 PM”

    Yes. It is. I hope we can put to rest the ‘who is better, Taylor v Lombardi’ rhetoric. Each draft is different and each team’s needs are different from year to year. Look at 2003 compared to 2004. Taylor administered both those drafts. Honestly, it doesn’t really matter until the LA Kings start winning championships, anyway:

    DEAN LOMBARDI ERA:
    2008
    Rd. Pick Player Pos. Drafted From (League) GP
    1 2 Drew Doughty D Guelph (OHL) – 0
    1 13 Colten Teubert D Regina (WHL) – 0
    2 32 Vjateslav Voinov D Chelyabinsk (Russia) – 0
    3 63 Robert Czarnik C/RW USA U-18 (NTDP) – 0
    3 74 Andrew Campbell D Sault Ste. Marie (OHL) – 0
    3 88 Geordie Wudrick LW Swift Current (WHL) – 0
    5 123 Andrei Loktionov C Yaroslavl (Russia) – 0
    6 153 Justin Azevedo C Kitchener (OHL) – 0
    7 183 Garrett Roe LW St. Cloud State (WCHA) – 0

    Year,Lg,Draft,Round,Overall,Player,Amateur Team,GP
    2007,NHL,Entry,1,4,Thomas Hickey,Seattle (WHL) – 0
    2007,NHL,Entry,2,52,Oscar Moller,Chilliwack (WHL) – 0
    2007,NHL,Entry,2,61,Wayne Simmonds,Owen Sound (OHL) – 0
    2007,NHL,Entry,3,82,Bryan Cameron,Belleville (OHL) – 0
    2007,NHL,Entry,4,95,Alec Martinez,Miami U. (CCHA) – 0
    2007,NHL,Entry,4,109,Dwight King,Lethbridge (WHL) – 0
    2007,NHL,Entry,5,124,Linden Rowat,Regina (WHL) – 0
    2007,NHL,Entry,5,137,Joshua Turnbull,Waterloo (USHL) – 0
    2007,NHL,Entry,7,184,Josh Kidd,Erie (OHL) – 0
    2007,NHL,Entry,7,188,Matt Fillier,St. John’s (QMJHL) – 0

    Year,Lg,Draft,Round,Overall,Player,Amateur Team,GP
    2006,NHL,Entry,1,11,Jonathan Bernier,Lewiston (QMJHL),4
    2006,NHL,Entry,1,17,Trevor Lewis,Des Moines (USHL) – 0
    2006,NHL,Entry,2,48,Joe Ryan,Quebec (QMJHL) – 0
    2006,NHL,Entry,3,74,Jeff Zatkoff,Miami U. (CCHA) – 0
    2006,NHL,Entry,3,86,Bud Holloway,Seattle (WHL) – 0
    2006,NHL,Entry,4,114,Niclas Andersen,Leksand (SWE) – 0
    2006,NHL,Entry,5,134,David Meckler,Yale (ECAC) – 0
    2006,NHL,Entry,5,144,Martin Nolet,Champlain (QC AAA) – 0
    2006,NHL,Entry,6,164,Constantin Braun,Eisbaren (GER) – 0

    DAVE TAYLOR ERA:
    Year,Lg,Draft,Round,Overall,Player,Amateur Team,GP
    2005,NHL,Entry,1,11,Anze Kopitar,Sodertalje Jr.,154
    2005,NHL,Entry,2,50,Dany Roussin,Rimouski – 0
    2005,NHL,Entry,2,60,T.J. Fast,Camrose – 0
    2005,NHL,Entry,3,72,Jonathan Quick,Avon Old Farms,3
    2005,NHL,Entry,5,139,Patrik Hersley,Malmo Jr – 0
    2005,NHL,Entry,6,184,Ryan McGinnis,Plymouth – 0
    2005,NHL,Entry,7,206,Josh Meyers,Sioux City – 0
    2005,NHL,Entry,7,226,John Seymour,Brampton – 0

    Year,Lg,Draft,Round,Overall,Player,Amateur Team,GP
    2004,NHL,Entry,1,11,Lauri Tukonen,Blues,5
    2004,NHL,Entry,3,95,Paul Baier,Deerfield (High-MA) – 0
    2004,NHL,Entry,4,110,Ned Lukacevic,Spokane – 0
    2004,NHL,Entry,5,143,Eric Neilson,Rimouski – 0
    2004,NHL,Entry,6,174,Scott Parse,Nebraska-Omaha – 0
    2004,NHL,Entry,7,205,Mike Curry,Sioux City – 0
    2004,NHL,Entry,7,221,Daniel Taylor,Guelph,1
    2004,NHL,Entry,8,238,Yutaka Fukufuji,Japan Nationals,4
    2004,NHL,Entry,9,264,Valtteri Tenkanen – 0

    Year,Lg,Draft,Round,Overall,Player,Amateur Team,GP
    2003,NHL,Entry,1,13,Dustin Brown,Guelph,269
    2003,NHL,Entry,1,26,Brian Boyle,St. Sebastian’s (High-MA),8
    2003,NHL,Entry,1,27,Jeff Tambellini,U. of Michigan,79
    2003,NHL,Entry,2,44,Konstantin Pushkarev,Ust-Kamenogorsk,17
    2003,NHL,Entry,3,82,Ryan Munce,Sarnia – 0
    2003,NHL,Entry,5,152,Brady Murray,Salmon Arm (BCHL),4
    2003,NHL,Entry,6,174,Esa Pirnes,Tappara (FIN),57
    2003,NHL,Entry,8,231,Matt Zaba,Vernon (BCHL) – 0
    2003,NHL,Entry,8,244,Mike Sullivan,Stouffville (OPJRA) – 0
    2003,NHL,Entry,9,274,Marty Guerin,Des Moines (USHL) – 0

    Year,Lg,Draft,Round,Overall,Player,Amateur Team,GP
    2002,NHL,Entry,1,18,Denis Grebeshkov,Yaroslavl,104
    2002,NHL,Entry,2,50,Sergei Anshakov,CSKA Moscow – 0
    2002,NHL,Entry,3,66,Petr Kanko,Kitchener,10
    2002,NHL,Entry,4,104,Aaron Rome,Swift Current,18
    2002,NHL,Entry,4,115,Mark Rooneem,Kamloops – 0
    2002,NHL,Entry,5,152,Greg Hogeboom,Miami University – 0
    2002,NHL,Entry,5,157,Joel Andresen,St. Albert (AJHL) – 0
    2002,NHL,Entry,6,185,Ryan Murphy,Boston College – 0
    2002,NHL,Entry,7,215,Mikhail Lyubushin,Krylja Sovetov – 0
    2002,NHL,Entry,8,248,Tuukka Pulliainen,TuTo – 0
    2002,NHL,Entry,9,279,Connor James,U. of Denver,15

    Year,Lg,Draft,Round,Overall,Player,Amateur Team,GP
    2001,NHL,Entry,1,18,Jens Karlsson,Vastra Frolunda – 0
    2001,NHL,Entry,1,30,David Steckel,Ohio State,79
    2001,NHL,Entry,2,49,Michael Cammalleri,Michigan,283
    2001,NHL,Entry,2,51,Jaroslav Bednar,HIFK Helsinki,102
    2001,NHL,Entry,3,83,Henrik Juntunen,Karpat – 0
    2001,NHL,Entry,4,116,Richard Petiot,Camrose,2
    2001,NHL,Entry,5,152,Terry Denike,Weyburn – 0
    2001,NHL,Entry,5,153,Tuukka Mantyla,Tappara – 0
    2001,NHL,Entry,7,214,Cristobal Huet,Lugano,183
    2001,NHL,Entry,8,237,Mike Gabinet,Nebraska-Omaha – 0
    2001,NHL,Entry,9,277,Sebastien Laplante,Rayside-Balfour – 0

    Year,Lg,Draft,Round,Overall,Player,Amateur Team,GP
    2000,NHL,Entry,1,20,Alexander Frolov,Yaroslavl 2, 378
    2000,NHL,Entry,2,54,Andreas Lilja,Malmo,398
    2000,NHL,Entry,3,86,Yanick Lehoux,Baie-Comeau,10
    2000,NHL,Entry,4,118,Lubomir Visnovsky,Bratislava,499
    2000,NHL,Entry,5,165,Nathan Marsters,Chilliwack, – 0
    2000,NHL,Entry,7,201,Yevgeny Fedorov,Molot-Perm – 0
    2000,NHL,Entry,7,206,Tim Eriksson,V. Frolunda, – 0
    2000,NHL,Entry,7,218,Craig Olynick,Seattle – 0
    2000,NHL,Entry,8,245,Dan Welch,U. of Minnesota – 0
    2000,NHL,Entry,8,250,Flavien Conne,Fribourg, SUI – 0
    2000,NHL,Entry,9,282,Carl Grahn,KalPa – 0

    Year,Lg,Draft,Round,Overall,Player,Amateur Team,GP
    1999,NHL,Entry,2,43,Andrei Shefer,Cherepovets – 0
    1999,NHL,Entry,3,74,Jason Crain,Ohio State – 0
    1999,NHL,Entry,3,76,Frantisek Kaberle,MoDo,493
    1999,NHL,Entry,3,92,Cory Campbell,Belleville – 0
    1999,NHL,Entry,4,104,Brian McGrattan,Sudbury,143
    1999,NHL,Entry,4,125,Daniel Johansson,MoDo Jr – 0
    1999,NHL,Entry,5,133,Jean-Francois Nogues,Victoriaville – 0
    1999,NHL,Entry,7,193,Kevin Baker,Belleville – 0
    1999,NHL,Entry,8,222,George Parros,Chicago,158
    1999,NHL,Entry,9,250,Noah Clarke,Des Moines,21

    Year,Lg,Draft,Round,Overall,Player,Amateur Team,GP
    1998,NHL,Entry,1,21,Mathieu Biron,Shawinigan,253
    1998,NHL,Entry,2,46,Justin Papineau,Belleville,81
    1998,NHL,Entry,3,76,Alexei Volkov,Krylja Sovetov-2
    1998,NHL,Entry,4,103,Kip Brennan,Sudbury,61
    1998,NHL,Entry,5,133,Joe Rullier,Rimouski – 0
    1998,NHL,Entry,6,163,Tomas Zizka,ZPS Zlin,25
    1998,NHL,Entry,7,190,Tommi Hannus,TPS Turku Jr – 0
    1998,NHL,Entry,8,217,Jim Henkel,Ottawa – 0
    1998,NHL,Entry,9,248,Matthew Yeats,Olds Jr. A,5

    Year,Lg,Draft,Round,Overall,Player,Amateur Team,GP
    1997,NHL,Entry,1,3,Olli Jokinen,HIFK Helsinki, FIN,723
    1997,NHL,Entry,1,15,Matt Zultek,Ottawa – 0
    1997,NHL,Entry,2,29,Scott Barney,Peterborough,27
    1997,NHL,Entry,4,83,Joe Corvo,Western Michigan,353
    1997,NHL,Entry,4,99,Sean Blanchard,Ottawa – 0
    1997,NHL,Entry,6,137,Richard Seeley,Prince Albert – 0
    1997,NHL,Entry,6,150,Jeff Katcher,Brandon – 0
    1997,NHL,Entry,8,193,Jay Kopischke,North Iowa Jr. A – 0
    1997,NHL,Entry,9,220,Konrad Brand,Medicine Hat – 0

  • -J

    Holy Cra@p!!! 191 posts- i’m not going to even begin to read back through that but it’s great that there’s so much hockey talk going on in August. Make’s me feel like I’m back in the Northeast.

    Cristobal- you should check out the international hockey database- it’s a fairly extensive db of hockey stats and keeps a tab of each teams draft history- here’s a link to this years draft: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2008e.html . Each teams name links to collective history of their draft picks, sorted by year and round, and it also shows how many games each player has played in the NHL.

    For the heck of it, I checked out Detroit’s recent draft success as many people, including myself, laud their ability of building from within (i think we may have discussed that in another post). Between 96 and 02- only 4 players drafted by Detroit have played in over 200 games, and only one over 400. Contrast that with DL’s record- 11 over 200 and 9 of those over 350 games played. I went through a bunch of other teams- ottawa, new jersy, chicago, montreal, etc, etc. and those numbers were among the best. Certainly the 96-98 draft were the most productive (perhaps because the emphasis was on building the sharks through the draft during that stretch). Anyways, have fun with that site.

  • cristobal

    J – interesting that chicago is on there as they’ve been in the doldrums for over a decade. The funny thing about Detroit was that I was at some point saying that good defensemen can be had through trade. We all know that Datsuk and Zetterburg must be 2 of the guys with over 200 games. There may not be many, but they are very special and statistics doesn’t represent that. I would guess that Hudler may still be under 200??? Are the others Lebda and Osgood? Dunno. I’m looking forward to going to that site. thanx.

  • Captain Material

    cristobal-

    Well, of course the same standard should be held if we compare what these guys have done. Another thing you kind of have to do is evaluate things relative to the long term goals. I think one thing that there is fundamental disagreement on is what matters. It seems like you see the team after DL took over as having slid down from a height I don’t really see us as ever having reached.

    Also, some of these things are kind of ridiculous to talk about with 20/20 hindsight. Honestly, no one but their moms thought guys like Huet and Lilja and Legace, at the times the decisions to move them was made, were suddenly going to become serious players. It’s kind of like giving credit (or taking it away) for a guy winning (or losing) the lottery.

    DT also had some tough luck with guys like Allison and Deadmarsh. Guys like Blake, Reinprecht and Stumple end up being better in the long run over the same period as Deadmarsh, Miller and Allison.

    DL has not gotten a lot out of what he has done on the veteran side either, but there’s the difference for me. The vet issues DT had actually mattered because the team was trying to sustain some level of success. DL’s vet issues come at a time when the organization seems to have figured out one of the things that has habitually kept us from maintaining success is not biting the bullet and building a reserve of talent.

    And like you have said, there does some to be an improved commitment at the end of this year to go full rebuild. It was there before, you have to admit though, in much more prominence than under the previous cycle. DL is quoted when he gets hired about the ownership opting for not the “full rebuild” plan, but for the “kinda rebuild” (my words), but there was a clear indication that the team would be changed to DL’s liking on and off the ice and he would run things on the hockey side. That included immediately trading a few quality roster players (Belanger, Gleason, Demitra) for prospects, so the emphasis on rebuilding was there.

    As things stand today, the team is chok full of young talent where before we always had one or two good youngsters and a whole bunch of holes. The way the team was run, there was never going to be a backfilling, and now in a very short time we not only have some good forwards, but some good youngsters at other positions too.

    So, okay, some vets were signed who haven’t done anything positive but fill in roster spots. Unless the plan is for them to contribute over the next three or four years, it doesn’t mean much to me. I think you also said something like, “a team only gets better or worse” based on a move (or group of moves). Well yeah, but what we call better or worse is the main issue there.

  • cristobal

    I did some anoraking and this is what I found (thanks J)

    I took the drafts of Lombardi and Taylor and, disregarding the first round, counted players that had 40 or more games over either of the past 2 seasons. There were some surprises for me: Matt Bradley and Doug Murray I was ignorant about; and Clowe didn’t have 40 or more in 07-08, but did the prior year. I also added up total points in the NHL for each side (knowing that it doesn’t tell the whole story, and that goalies might throw off the average), and the amount of years since the draft that each side has been available for.

    Here goes:

    Taylor

    Cammalleri – 7 yrs – 205 pts
    Huet – 7 yrs – 3 pts
    Visnovsky – 8 yrs – 279 pts
    Lilja – 8 yrs – 59 pts 1 cup
    Kaberle – 9 yrs – 185 pts 1 cup
    McGrattan – 9 yrs – 10 pts
    Parros – 9 yrs – 11pts 1 cup,
    Corvo – 11 yrs – 162 pts

    Total – 68 yrs – 915 pts

    Lomardi

    Ehrhoff 7 yrs – 90 pts
    Clowe 7 yrs – 44 pts
    D. Murray 9 yrs – 14 pts
    Cheechoo 10 yrs – 262 pts
    M. Samuelsson 10 yrs – 168 pts 1 cup
    Mark Smith 11 yrs – 70 pts (current ufa)
    Matt Bradley 12 yrs – 95 pts

    Totals 66 yrs – 743 pts

    I think my numbers support my opinion….although I think a little more highly of Lombardi’s ability now. Taylor’s numbers may improve if Boyle, Tambelline, B Murray or Quick pan out. We all hope Boyle does. Whereas I don’t think Lombardi’s have much chance anymore being that his last year was 2002.

  • JDM

    oooh, almost 200 posts, nice. Never seen that here before, but its awesome. Then again I’m a relative freshman to the site, so I’m sure its happened before.

    Captain Material,

    Again, as always, love the comments. I appreciate you having pointed out that Lombardi was trying to rebuild even when AEG was begging for the “kinda rebuild”. Goes back to what I was saying about Lombardi ‘playing’ ownership and doing what he wants while making it seem to AEG like he’s doing what they want. Then again, that’s kind of like Quisp’s point, albeit a rambuncous point, about devling too deeply into the inner workings of the minds of people we only read about, watch in broadcasted interviews and possibly meet at a Kings event; not people we truly know. But I still think we can get a sense. Platitudes for the press and smiles for the camera aside, I think it’s not too difficult to read a person on a cerebral level if you look closely. Though I know the stated word to the press indicates that DL has shifted gears since being hired, I truly think that he has been operating with the same mindset from day one, although not autonomisly; which accounts for what is percieved as a panicked change of direction into a full rebuild. From paying attention to every bit of info I can get about the guy and monitoring his interactions and movements within the club, and sometimes just reading his face, eyes and demeanor, I just constantly get the impression that the man is not, as anthony claims, simply an ego-centric dictator who acts without regard to those around him. In a sense that’s true, in that I believe he is fully intent on forcing his will through, but not only do I appreciate that, I think he does it a very clever way, totally opposite from acting without regard. I see his moves as being specifically for a purpose, trying both at once to please AEG, get what he wants, and most importantly position himself and team so that he can do what he wants, not just because he is GM, but with ownerships support! He knows he can’t sign Kopitar and Johnson to huge contracts in the same year if he signs $8-12 million away in UFA’s. He sees AEG’s limitations and willingness to spend. I believe he’s creating a cash reserve for himself so that when he needs to spend he can. Most people assume AEG told him this year “Your budget is the cap floor.” I choose to believe the opposite. The Kings have never been at the bottom of the payroll under AEG so far I know. Sure they would never spend to the limit, but just like Taylor’s regular season standings, the payroll was reasonably average. Again, please correct me if I’m wrong on this. I think Lombardi came the ownership and said, “Look, I’ve spent your money, like you wanted, on some pretty good guys like Blake, Stuart, Preissing, Nagy, Handsuz, Calder, Cloutier (all of whom were much much better in seasons past than with their recent tenure with the Kings). That got us 28th and 29th place. Let me try this. Let me do this rebuild. If you do, I’ll spend as little as possible this year. Signing Kopitar and Johnson is where your money should go, not on Jeff Finger, or even on Hossa. I’ll save you this money now, so long as we lock up our young guys now. That’s how to create a winner and get to the playoffs year in and year out.” … Yes, I know, SERIOUS speculation going on here.

    However, Lombardi, not having any affinity to the Kings before, I think he approached this job with a very discerning eye. I think he knows as well as we do that AEG is cheap, and I think that his seemingly sporatic movements have been carefully done to mold this team into what he wants, all the while maintaining AEG’s trust by doing things that we all see as purely AEG ordained, such as trading Visnovsky. Certainly I don’t believe that everything he has done has been brilliant. He’s made blunders, but I do see a consistent philosophy, as well as a willingness to try a variety of things. For this, I cite the Handsuz signing, as bad as he was last season, as being wholly in tune with his schemes. Back to the ‘like-minded’ individuals. If I’m off base here please call me out on it, but from my perspective, Handsuz is oozing with character, and while he may not necessarily be a leader persay, he is definately someone to look up to. Even from afar before his days with the Kings, he always stood out to me as a player with an intense work ethic and a drive and determination, all the while not being flamboyant or flashy. Not a leader, not a mentor, but a role model. I hope for him to prove this more on the ice next season.

    To be fair, the Nagy signing was a shot in the dark, something that seems abberant from other moves, but I like that he’s willing to take a shot at a guy who has always seemed better than he’s performed, always wondering if it was just a matter of him not fitting in anywhere. Didn’t work out, but oh well. I also see this as one of his ways to ‘play’ AEG. He tried to make the playoffs. He made a Taylor-esque signing in Nagy, and Handsuz, and Stuart, and Preissing (all wholly respectable and quality players for the majority of their varying careers), and look where it got us, NOWHERE!

    You mention, in regards to DT’s moves, that looking back on these things is silly, referrencing the Legace trade and others as being logical at the time but ultimately seemingly stupid and shortsighted. I agree. I try and think about DL’s drafts and trades and signing with a combination of ‘at the time’ mentality and current results. Both, for me atleast, point to a man who wanted to rebuild this team fully the day he got here. I agree with Captain Material that what he inherited was shoddy at best. Some bright spots, most of which really were the afterglow of DT’s glory days of 00-02; mirages of a once good team. This I why I like DL. Even though his moves have not been all the best, I think he wanted what he has right now from day one, but he couldn’t get there right away without management calling for his head, or even not hiring him in the first place. I think he towed the line AEG wanted for 2 seasons, while putting his people, scouts and talent in place, ultimately creating a situation that allowed him to get his way by proving to AEG themselves that what THEY wanted was wrong, and what he then presented (full rebuild) was right.

    The coaching is the one area I really disrespect him for because of Crawford. I hope against hope that Murray is the right man for the job, and if that’s not the case then I really don’t care what DL has done, coaching is the most important part of the game for me, and what has ultimately made us suck so bad the last several years. In conclusion, I guess, if I’ve actually managed to make a point at 4 in the morning, friggin insomniac that I am, it is my contention that this team is exactly where DL wanted it from the start. He has a long term plan, and I believe in it!

    … I guess I could have just said that :P .

    cristobal,

    It’s reassuring that you can admit that after being presented with draft statistics, you “think a little more highly of Lombardi’s ability now.” I know the old argument that we got really excited about Steckel (who just got extended), Aulin, Bednar, etc, etc. That they would pan out, however I can’t help but still feel that this crop DL has accumulated in a very short time is much richer and deeper than any crop before. Part of it may be that I never was as knowledgable about the Kings prospects until I recently found this marvelous website. Part of it could be that, as you correctly pointed out earlier that in some capacity I keep my head in the sand. It could also be because it is true. I hope they are all a little true, the latter most so.

    I think comparing DL’s and DT’s draft record is certainly valid, but lets not forget, in a sense Taylor is kind of where Lombardi was at 4 or 5 years ago having been a GM for a long time, doing some good, having people boo you out the door and then taking a lesser role elsewhere. I forget their exact titles at Philly and Dallas, but Lombardi has gained much experience since his days in San Jose. I can only imagine that he was doing in Philly what Taylor is doing in Dallas now; essentially gathering knowledge and honing in on more specific aspects of the game and players and what makes those players great and their hockey clubs successful. This is much easier to do after having been there, but then getting to watch without the burden of all decisions falling in your lap. I can’t honestly say I followed Lombardi in San Jose, but I highly doubt we are getting a carbon copy of the GM he was for them.

    I don’t think it’s fair to assume that Lombardi’s recent picks won’t be so great simply because he hasn’t been drafting as a GM since 2002. Personally I think it’s the opposite, he’s bound to be better at it now than before. If anything, we should agree to be neutral, that his lapse in holding the title GM has nothing to do with his knowledge, instincts and ability to make judgement calls and gather intelligent support staff and scouts to decide which players are the best to go at what spots, and conversley, how to acquire players you covet at spots you don’t currently possess.

    Likewise, I’m sure he learned a lot about dealing with management in San Jose, and is applying that learning here now.

    An interesting stastitic would be to compare several GM’s performances with different clubs and whether they improved in terms of playoff appearances/records, wins, drafting, trades, UFA signings, etc. If I get out of jury duty early next week I’ll try to undertake some of that. I have a sneaking suspicion that GM’s tend to do better with their second teams than their first. I bet if Taylor gets another crack at GM, he’ll do a better job than he did here, ownership be damned.

    I could be totally wrong, as always. Just enjoying sharing my thoughts and ramblings with other Kings fan who care to read it… because my girlfriend, who only knows the names of players she thinks are cute certainly doesn’t care to hear it! I love this respite from the world into the depths of hockey that Rich’s blog provides.

    Since we’ve all been posting like lunatics, can I get a “Thanks Rich!”?

    … Thanks Rich!

    P.S. – I apologize in advance if anything I said was totally wrong or trivial… there’s a reason I’m up at 4 am and its not because I’m sane.

  • yesitscal

    JDN, I empathize with your insomnia. I hae a sleep disorder, so I know what kind of chaos it can cause in one’s life. I don’t have a problem with your opinions because I believe they’re well thought out, and you don’t state your opinions as gospel that if other don’t believe they feel like idiots.

    For the Lombardi bashers, who would you rather have as GM?

    Cristobal, who’s the best GM in the league? I’d really like your opinion on this, since you seem to think that Lombardi is totally inept.

    BTW, DL drafted a guy named Marko Sturm and, although he wasn’t around when the deal was made, he was used as a trading piece to get some guy named Thornton.

  • nykingfan

    Cristobal

    We’re all good buddy. I hope the job thing picks up quickly for you. It’s bad all over.

    Now back to our beloved Kings

    Back to Kopitar for a second and the argument whether he’s better than Malkin.
    I can’t say that he’s better than Malkin, but it really doesn’t matter to me. What we have in Kopitar is a special player we haven’t had on the Kings for a looong time. I’ve said it before, he’s our Crosby. He may not be as good as Crosby, but what Crosby has done for the Pens, I think Kopitar will eventually do for the Kings. He has weaknesses in his game..ie faceoffs, defensive zone coverage….but with his talent and the effort that he gives, I’m sure that won’t take long to correct.
    I have faith that DL will sign him long term and will lock up the core as well.
    I’m not blind to the fact that the Kings will probably struggle again this year, but watching the kids come up and have success is more than enough to keep me interested. I’m excited to see Purcell, Boyle…guys like that getting a full season and watching their progress.
    I don’t think their could be anything more exciting than watching the team be built from the ground up into a stanley cup contender.
    If I’m wrong, than it will be just like the last 40 years of being a Kings fan.

  • Tito Jackson

    haha, this is all great. Aren’t there other websites for these types of discussions?

  • wavesinair

    JDM said: “I apologize in advance if anything I said was totally wrong or trivial… there’s a reason I’m up at 4 am and its not because I’m sane.”

    I appreciate that you admit to SERIOUS speculation. Admitting it is the first step. ;) Now, if you can just start trimming your posts from novel-length to short-story-length, all of us who don’t have an unlimited amount of time can read them and offer up a retort. ;) …and that goes for cristobal too!

    I dont think DL is anywhere near as crafty as you give him credit for. The people who work for phil are pretty smart guys. And I dont think for one second DL is trying to fool them. From the very beginning it was clear DL wanted to build a strong foundation by developing young talent; create an organization that grooms its young players into quality NHLers. We ALL love that and want that. That was and is his plan. The question is how do we get there?

    For me, its WISE to have quality veteran leadership ALL of the time. At any point a young guy jumps on NHL ice for the first time, he should have a veteran there to help him along the way. Right? So unless Im missing something, we are going FAR away from that this year. Right? Isnt this approach recklessly risking our young players growth? It seems like we are relying on the new coaching staff WAY too much. If what Im saying is reasonable, then isnt it true DL has shifted gears and changed his plan in a detrimental way? Who thinks that from day one DL envisioned a super young team headed into his third season? Does that make sense?

    I think the obvious answer is there has been some serious compromising on his part. DL says that, This is exactly how you manage your payroll when youre in our situation. Am I wrong in saying that we can sign anze and jack to long term deals AND have FA signings that would help the kids develop, win, and be more inclined to stay with an organization that shows it is consistently committed to winning? Wasnt that his approach last year? Wasnt this entirely possible this year? And just because last year didnt work, does that mean you give up completely? There are always adjustments to plans. Of course. But this is MORE than an adjustment, isnt it? This is a major policy shift.

    The whole full rebuild thing depends on how you define it. Organizationally, there is no doubt the plan was and is to completely change the way the Kings operate. Make them into a consistent contender starting with developing young talent. One could say that approach is, in fact, a full rebuild and I would agree. And Im totally on board with that vision, DLs vision. We all want that. But when we start talking about full rebuild equals devoid of veterans and unnecessarily risking development then Im not on board.

  • Quisp

    I think we’ll see a vet or two added to the roster in the next month, though. At this point, I’m expecting a third or fourth line forward, although earlier in the summer I would have said (did say?) a second line left wing was most likely. I am in a way relieved that we didn’t pick up a Demitra or Glen Murray (though that could still happen) since it suggests at least an initial commitment to Purcell (or Moulson) in that slot. If Purcell gets a shot at 60 games on the top two lines, that’s an exciting prospect.

    Of course, a veteran d teacher/mentor/nanny is even more likely. But even if that doesn’t come to pass, the addition of Terry Murray and Mark Hardy seems to be at least in part designed to help our young d through their upcoming trial by fire.

    You know, someone made the comparison recently of the Kings kids to the ’80 US Olympic team. On the surface (and in retrospect) that does seem insane to invoke. But I’ve been thinking about this comparison more and more lately. Not just because the ’80 team pulled off a “miracle.” But because they were kids playing against grown-ups. No one would say that it’s likely the Kings could do something similar (especially over the course of an 82 game season), but it helps me to remember that such things DO happen, against all odds, etc., and that when they do, it is the stuff of great stories…legends.

    It would be nice to be part of such a story. That’s why I follow sports. So that I can have my heart repeatedly broken until one day it’s not.

  • -J

    wavesinair- I think you need to define veteran leadership- do you mean guys over 30 that have played a bunch of games, or guys who have captained/led successful teams in the past, whether it be NHL, AHL, NCAA or International and have been in the league a few years (guys like Stoll (Team Canada) and Greene (UND), both have been to the finals)?

    I did a break down of the youth a while back (26 and younger; i can re-post it or you can search for it- it was back in one of the posts about blake when he left) and this team is not short of leaders and players that have succeeded at the top levels (prior to coming to the NHL). I agree that leadership is definitely a must, but, based on my analyis, I disagree that the Kings are seriously lacking in this department at this point. I won’t argue against them adding 1-2 veteran players, however, i don’t see the situation as dire. So this getss back to what do you define as veteran leadership. I think the kings have some young guys, some that have matured here and others brought in by DL, that fit the bill. Take a look back the oilers in the 80′s if you don’t believe a young talented team can develop and reach success by building with a core of young leaders (under 25).

    as for this, “Who thinks that from day one DL envisioned a super young team headed into his third season? Does that make sense?: I’m not going to pretend to know what he was thinking when he started, but many of his moves seem to indicate that this was on his radar as a possibility early on (at least by the end of his first year)- stockpiling picks in this years draft, getting rid of demitra for two prospects, getting younger with Johnson over Gleason, signing short FA contracts (eg. bridge players as he put it). I could see the argument for does this make sense going either way, but at this point, it’s somewhat moot, because the reality is, like it or not, the Kings have gone with a youth movement.

  • cristobal

    I thnk we should leave the 80 olympic thing behind. it just embarrasses us.
    there is no fisticuffs in olympic hockey to speak of and the euro’s weren’t intimidating surrender out of anyone with violence. the nhl is a different world.

    JDM – War and Peace – I think the point about rebuilding has some legs in terms of the JJ and O’Sullivan trades. It also could be about stamping his name on the club and acquiring guys he wants associated with himself. Those are promising trades and the guys look good, but we need to keep in mind they have not, so far, exceeded their trade value.

    From my research last night (again, J’s link was amazing) I believe Lombardi should bring in his former pick Mark Smith. He’s UFA and could fit in, and exceed expectations. Based on the time of year and his status, nothing more than a million. Lombardi should at least be spending the time we are going over this stuff and his rebuild should include finding those guys that can contribute, but have been ignored by the league.

    wavesinair – phil has some smart people? i’d say the smartest thing they’ve done is get hired by a billionaire. running the kings at a loss and wasting money on poor marketing don’t impress me. I still can’t believe they bought the O2 arena.

  • cristobal

    oh yeah. forget lombardi or taylor, bring back GM Vachon

    J – seriously disagree with only needing 1-2 veterans. We lost 4 since the trade deadline. Leadership that knows the nhl and can boss the situation is needed. Find a guy who wants to eventually coach and was a big part of a winner and bring him into the fold.

  • yesitscal

    I, too, believe that the Kings will sign at least one more vet who can help as a mentor to all these young kids before the season starts. I’m not sure why everybody is panicking over O’Sullivan, though. There are still weeks to go before training camp opens. If he’s still unsigned by then, then it’ll be the time to worry.

    Anthony, I’m still waiting to hear from you about the teams who have offered O’Sullivan deals and how you know when the rest of us don’t. If you made statements you couldn’t back up in a court of law the judge would have his way with you.

  • cristobal

    wavesinair – funny you seem to have provided a novella of your own….

  • JDM

    whoa… I’m the first to admit to being verbose, but that was bad even for me. Yes, wavesinair, I do have a problem, I’m a bloga-Kingsa-Hammondaholic and I’m working on it… one step at a time.

    I totally agree that Kopitar is our Crosby. I don’t agree though that we are totally ‘devoid’ of verteran leadership. I agree with Quisp that I expect atleast one veteran D signed. Hedican I hope. I really think one would be fine. We all also talk like D are only influenced by other D. Sure, having a vet at your position is great and can only help, but it doesn’t mean that Handsuz, Armstrong, and yes, even Preissing can’t all have a positive ‘veteran’ influence on all our young players, regardless of position. Frolov too is a 5 year vet, he’s got something to give. Brown and Kopitar, while very fresh, are natural born leaders and players the young guys already look up to as well. There is a reasonable, OVERALL vet presence, and even moreso a leadership presence, NHL experience aside.

    I want to touch on this for a minute… we don’t have a ‘veteran’ goalie, but no one seems worried about Bernier having a vet to look up to and learn from.

    Everyone assumes that at only 20 he’s ready so long as the defense isn’t miserable. People talk about how tough it is for defenseman to develop, namely because of the added pressure of playing D. Well, there is no more pressure on anyone than the goalie, but no one seems to think Bernier needs a Khabibulin or Kolzig to show him the way. I think Bernier needing a solid defense in front of him in order to succeed and not get burned too bad is equivalent to the young defense needing better quality coaching to ensure they don’t get burned too bad. Mark Hardy is a veteran of both sides of the bench, and something tells me he’ll be showing them on the ice himself at practices. It’s not the same as having a vet player at D, but just like Bernier with the defense, the defense needs a strong system more than anything.

    Another positive to take is that many of our young D have had huge responsibility roles at international tournaments and shined without needing veteran leadership on the ice. They dealt with the pressure of respresenting their country… and if you’re from Canada there’s definately some big pressure there. Others, like Voinov, have spent several years playing against and with men much older than he. The ones that are ready, are ready for the challenge. Even so, unless Gauthier is bound for the AHL, we are likely to have 2 rookies at D, tops, if not just one… depending on how you count Harrold, with 37 NHL games under his belt. So it’s a young D for sure, but not without some experience. I think with the right system they will surprise.

    I’ll accept “our D is not the most talented bunch on paper.” That is wholly true. But I think we freak out a tad that there is NO veteran leadership. Even if there are no more signings or trades, there is still hope for the d squad as pieces are in place to help them along.

  • JDM

    Mark Smith is interesting cristobal, but at that size he should be more of a puck mover (the kind of D we need most), and his 47 assists in almost 400 games isn’t too promising. Though really I don’t know much about him. He’s a lefty though, and well know DL wants a lefty. Is he a leader in any sense, or just a guy with experience? I still say Hedican fits the bill best.

  • yesitscal

    I think that if Lombardi were interested in his former pick, Smith, he’d have already been signed.

    Cristobal, since you’re so down on AEG and Lombardi (by the way, AEG built the O2 Arena, they didn’t “buy” it), who would you appoint is GM if the decision were yours and you could have anybody you wanted regardless of whether they were currently under contract to another team? I’d be interested to see who your selection would be.

  • JDM

    well… one less option, looks like Teppo signed back with Buffalo. http://wgr550.com/pages/2752697.php?

  • cristobal

    Mark Smith is the kind of gambler i am. sign a guy for a million or less, and at worst, you only lose the dough. the 400 games are what I like, he’s been in the playoffs, and he might “find himself” and appreciate the opportunity to continue his career. If he does, fit in, play well, raise eyebrows, you can keep him or trade him for further value or young guys. Unlike handzus, even if chicago thought he could rebound and become the point producer he was (that is why Lombardi signed him for 4 mil/yr, not as a defensive forward) in exchange for khabibulin, his price tag is too high. There is no way to work a trade for guys you overpay.

  • cristobal

    we need veterans, not crypt keepers. just joking. i see no reason to NOT sign Hedican and Smith. We could actually sign about 30 1 million dollar free agents.

  • yesitscal

    Cristbal, you said, “There is no way to work
    a trade for guys you overpay.” It is exactly for this reason that the ‘Hawks will have a lot of trouble dumping Khavebulin. It goes both ways.

  • cristobal

    Just a note about demanding success – I know most people hate soccer. I like to use the word they created for the game when these leagues first began over 130 years ago – football.

    Anyway, Rangers Football Club yesterday went out of European Competition; meaning they won’t compete in inter-europe club competitions the Champions League or the UEFA Cup. Last year they lost in the UEFA Cup final. The domestic SPL (scottish premier league) is just about to start and they could very well win the league, but the supporters are losing their minds. Bear in mind, last year they lost the domestic league title on the last day of the season, and the UEFA Cup Final just prior. But they will not accept 2nd best. There will be player movement and possibly management turmoil.

    Just think that sometimes pressure and criticism are good for success.

  • -J

    cristobal- Though I never said that we only need 1 or 2 vets, care to elaborate on why you seriously disagree with me about our vet situation? Like I said, I did an analysis of the success and leadership accolodes of our under 26-year old players to come to my conclusion- not some knee jerk reaction to what one could first perceive the situation to be.

    Also, keep in mind that you can’t add so many veteran players (like 4) that there are no longer enough slots with meaningful ice time left for the young players that these vets are supposed to be leading. Looking at the potential roster, that is just what would happen if you brought that many players in.

  • cristobal

    I thought you meant they only need 1 or 2. I do think they should have more, though. I don’t count leadership in jrs, WU20′s or 18′s, NCAA against players, I just don’t think you can expect young guys to lead if they haven’t yet. I love Brown but don’t see him as a leader, really. In terms of how he plays, yes, but whenever I’ve seen him talk I get the feeling he’s that great follower who’ll throw himself through a brick wall for ya.

    I don’t see much leadership from the guys that were acquired: handzus, calder, preissing. So I’d like 3-4 solid vets, ideally. There will always be injuries and if the 3 listed guys don’t get it together, they’re just ballast. I really want to see the top young prospects go, but would leave simmonds, teubert, voinov, out of the mix this year. Boyle, Doughty, Moulsen, for certain. After that, I’m not sure. I don’t know much about Purcell besides statistics. Ellis was serviceable but will he improve, and if not, is he serviceable?

    Hey, that database was awesome. Nobody mentioned the comparison I made. Maybe BBK will..

    cheers

  • -J

    Fargin Rangers- time to burn my jersey. (yes, i actually have a Glasgow Rangers jersey, though to be honest, i was more a fan of their sponsor back when i got it (McEwans) than the team)

  • Captain Material

    I see Smith being talked about as a defender, and just want to make sure people know he is a forward. Although his numbers go look better if they’re for a defenseman.

  • Quisp

    re how many veterans etc:

    I agree with J. There isn’t room for more than one or two. Let’s look:

    Brown/Kopitar/O’Sullivan
    Purcell/Handzus/Frolov
    Clune or (someone new)/Stoll/Richardson or Calder
    Moulson/Boyle/Ellis
    Ivanans and Armstrong

    If you sign more than one vet forward, you’re basically playing your vets off each other. It doesn’t solve the “veteran presence” problem to sign a vet if it means sending Armstrong to Manchester.

    Now, defense:

    Doughty/Greene
    Gauthier/Preissing
    (someone new) or Martinez/Johnson
    Harrold

    I expect DL to bring in one vet d. I also expect Martinez to challenge for a spot and eventually get the call when the inevitable injuries happen. More than that, you have to push out Gauthier, and again that’s pushing out someone with relative experience. IF DL really was thinking of Gauthier as a Manchester signing, then you could bring in TWO vet D. Personally, I’m still waiting to see what happens to Mr. Schneider.

    In any case, I will be shocked if MORE than two vets (meaning, one forward and one d) are added to the mix by camp.

  • -J

    Leaders are leaders, doesn’t matter the level they’ve led at- you don’t stop being a leader because you’ve moved up a level. Hockey is Hockey- it’s not like the NHL is a different sport than what is played in WJC, NCAA, or the AHL.

    So, if expect them to pickup a guy that has already been a leader in the NHL, is that even possible- it’s not like there’s a whole bunch of captains and assistant captains looking for work or up for trade.

    You seem to be taking leadership and mentoring/teaching to be one and the same.

  • yesitscal

    This isn’t a soccer blog. If you want to talk about soccer, do it in an appropriate forum. This isn’t it.

  • Quisp

    Cristobal, re Teubert, Voynov and Simmonds:

    Unless they’re REALLY eating their Wheaties (or those radioactive vegetables that washed up in the lagoon of Gilligan’s Island) I don’t think those guys have a chance this season. Though, if they are ready, that’s what you call a “champagne problem.” I am usually the advocate of “maybe they’ll develop ahead of schedule,” but even I can’t imagine those three this year. Although, who knows, maybe Teubert is on the Denny McLean diet.

  • Quisp

    J –

    I agree with you on this point as well. It occurs to me that what DL has done is stockpiled several Luke Skywalkers. Now we need a couple of Yodas.

  • yesitscal

    Quisp, as a veteran with accrued service time, Armstrong cannot be sent to Manchester without his approval.

  • cristobal

    I respectfully disagree, it is like a different sport…

    I agree, as far as FA’s go, the list is poor. Old leaders are needed to show young leaders how to become grizzled veterans with rings….

    There was an interesting anecdote about the Oilers in the early 80′s. they lost to NY Isles in the finals and realized they had to sacrafice even more and work even harder. I think it shows that even young leaders need to keep learning and growing.

  • Duckhunter

    JDM,

    Your one hell of a class act. Being on the ignorant end of the spectrum, I listen quite intently, not only on what you say, but how you say. You let everyone state their peace, and if you disagree, you counter in a way that isn’t threatening, divisive or polarizing. Your thoughts are well thought out, you are extremely consistent, admit when your wrong, and state when your guessing and or assuming. You can’t argue with that kind of character. Alright enough of the love fest.

    As great as the 80′s Olympic teams game was, we really can’t compare our team to them can we? As was stated above, there’s 84 games in a season. If we compare our selfs to that team, we’ll be 1-83. I don’t like the way that sounds.

    You all know how I feel about veteran players, so I won’t get into that. But in simplistic terms I’ll define a veteran as one who understands the game, wants to share his knowledge and wants to play for the team, he’s playing for. I’ll call it the “right” leadership, and that’s simply the player who wants to help form chemistry, pride and the ability to adjust.

    I’m not going to compare Kop to Malkin, because I don’t like comparing players in general. But Malkin is a fantastic player and some people have commented on how he and the Penguins didn’t play well. What I personally saw, was a group that up to that point, got it done with pure talent. Detroit bottled some of that talent, and the young kids with their lack of experience didn’t know how to ADJUST. Not that the kids did that bad, they made it to the finals, just pointing out veterans do make a difference.

  • cristobal

    quisp – yes, i agree with you. Especially Teubert because i have very high hope for him and don’t want him going overboard too young and too light. I wonder what weight he’ll play at. SImmonds is only supposed to be about 165#s. Wow.

    It would be really interesting to see Simmonds if he can get his frame like Nash, thornton, Shanahan. Voinov is a mystery so I wont say i know about him. Russian defenders can be slow to adapt to North American hockey, though.

    Is Chelios done, by the way? I haven’t heard.

  • cristobal

    A good veteran will take a young guy aside and show him how you learn from mistakes, instead of looking at the kid like they’ll never get it or let them down. I think they’ll say, basically, “i’ve been there, made mistakes, but if you get back on the bicycle you win no matter what.”

  • Quisp

    Cristobal –

    Last I heard the wings were looking to bring Chelios back for another year.

    Simmonds looked pretty skinny at the prospects camp, I thought. I can see why people are willing to take a chance on him. You can’t help but think, “when this kid fills out…” I’m sure he’s doing all the right training etc., but there are some things (like biology) you can’t rush. Well, of course you can, but it’s illegal and unhealthy.

  • cristobal

    Forum or Staples?

  • cristobal

    Daniel. When I was in 7th grade the teacher gave us a 2 page quiz that many kids began struggling with and sweating over. Some kids just sat there, seemingly stumped, but with slight grins on their faces.

    I was one of the kids that started working on the quiz, but soon the buzz in the room stopped us. The first thing at the top of the page said

    Directions: this is a test to see how good you are at reading the directions and following them. Put down your pencil and you have passed the test. (paraphrasing of course) I hope this makes sense and that it will help in the future.

  • cristobal

    yesitscal -
    The Dome project was conceived, originally on a somewhat smaller scale, under John Major’s Conservative government, as a Festival of Britain or World’s Fair-type showcase to celebrate the third millennium. The incoming Labour government elected in 1997 under Tony Blair, greatly expanded the size, scope and funding of the project. It also significantly increased expectations of what would be delivered. Just before its opening Blair claimed the Dome would be “a triumph of confidence over cynicism, boldness over blandness, excellence over mediocrity”.[3] In the words of BBC correspondent Robert Orchard, “the Dome was to be highlighted as a glittering New Labour achievement in the next election manifesto”.

    The O2 was developed, inside the dome structure, by Anschutz Entertainment Group to a design by HOK SVE and Buro Happold in a 600 million development.

    -AEG is not a builder. They occupied the building and have a lease (i thought they bought it).

    – They as much built the place as they’ve built a winner with the LA Kings.

    yesitscal – Cristbal, you said, “There is no way to work
    a trade for guys you overpay.” It is exactly for this reason that the ‘Hawks will have a lot of trouble dumping Khavebulin. It goes both ways.

    – Thanks for the support, I knew I was correct. It not only applies to the Kings but to all teams and all GM’s….hmmmm

    – Is your standard for a GM based on “he’s not as bad as this….?” I would have to think about who I would pick. I would like a guy like Sir Alex Furgeson.

    soccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccersoccer

  • yesitscal

    The Major government did not put up the money to build the arena. It was provided by AEG. What’s your point? You always seem to want to split hairs about the most inconsequential things just so that you can say you’re right.

    Mr. Ferguson probably knows about as much hockey as you do.

    Lauri Tukonen for the Calder!

  • yesitscal

    Cristobal, you’ve obviously been on this blog a lot longer than I have, but in the week and a half or so that I’ve known about it all I’ve seen from you is complaint after complaint about what an inept know-nothing dolt that Dean Lombardi is. So, with all this complaining, it surprises me that you’ve never even thought of who you’d have in his place. If you’re going to advocate revolution, at least have a plan for the aftermath.

  • Anonymous

    Does anybody else get the idea that they’re talking to the south end of a northbound horse when the address some posters comments on here?

  • cristobal

    yesitscal – I can find no evidence that says that AEG built the Millenium Dome. So, I don’t know. I still think its crap. AEG does not appear to own it, either, but to have a lease, though it is long. I wasn’t trying to split hairs, in fact it was you who said I was wrong and that AEG built it. Even the word ‘built’ could be split-hairs over, but I agree. Why did you bring it up?

    Ferguson does know how to win, though, something you cannot say about AEG and our LA Kings. Nor do they know how to run the team as they were always reporting losses. If you want to point out the positives they add to the league, i’ll listen.

    I’ve repeatedly said I would not have fired Taylor. Maybe you missed some of those, there were a lot of posts, but I’ve only been on here for 2 weeks tops so they shouldn’t be that hard for you to find.

    Are you implying now that I said “lauri tukonen would win the calder?” I cannot figure that out. I could go into my arguements about tukonen again, but you could also go read my old one’s. I would really love it if he did, i don’t think its out of the realm of possibilities. It will be interesting to see who plays more games this year – Doughty or Tukonen.

  • Captain Material

    cristobal-

    I’m beginning to wonder what emotional disorder causes a person to seek so much attention in this manner, but one of those last questions has me unable to avoid biting. :)

    Totally, the Forum. If you care about emenities, Staples is nice. If you care about the hockey, the Forum was a fans dream come true.

    I like sitting in the cheap seats in the corners. Moving from the Forum to Staples, I could no longer read the names on the backs of the jerseys and quickly realized I actually had to look down to see the jumbo-tron.

    If you take the Ducks fans out of the equation (although they did get noticebly better after winning a Cup), Staples is the third best venue in CA for the NHL. The Shark Tank seats only about 500 less people than Staples, yet you could fit the entire building inside Staples.

  • cristobal

    captain material – thanks, i like to be considered weird by the general public. it makes me feel like a decent human being.

    I could not agree more about staple vs. forum. i’ve only been to staples 4 times (1 lakers) and its inaccessible, segregates fans, and is WAY to loud with the childish stuff (cartman chanting go kings go???). I couldn’t be sure if it was the size of the building, but you definitely get the feeling you’re on the outside looking in. Whereas, at the forum, it was like being unified: supporters and team as one.

    Plus, you could walk out of the tunnels and pass John Candy and say HHHEeey John, and he’d say, ‘what’s up, buddy?’ of course he didn’t know i had the emotional disorder and all…..

  • yesitscal

    cristobal said:
    on August 7, 2008 1:14 PM

    Last season they open with a win against the Ducks in London
    (Anshutz idiotic O2 arena which cost billions) and then get tonked the next game

    This is why I brought it up.

    You also said, The Dome project was conceived, originally on a somewhat smaller scale, under John Major’s Conservative government, as a Festival of Britain or World’s
    Fair-type showcase to celebrate the third millennium. In point of fact, the O2 Arena was constructed to try to cover up the disaster and the white elephant that the Millennium Dome was, but Im straying off topic here.

    Okay, to enlighten you a bit. You probably dont recall when AEG bought the Kings. Their plan all along was to build Staples as the centerpiece of their downtown real estate acquisitions. AEG has always been in it for the property, not the hockey club. It surprises me when people dont realize that real estate has always come first with AEG. Youre looking at AEG the wrong way. They know how to win, as proven by their redevelopment of the downtown Los Angeles area. This has always been their main goal, and acquiring the Kings and building Staples was simply a means to that end.

    So youd still want Taylor as GM, someone who has proven that theyre very good at only being mediocre? Great! That should be the Kings new motto this year STRIVE FOR MEDIOCRITY!

    By your vociferous defense of someone whos done nothing to deserve anymore than he got, you give me the impression that the Kings are giving up on a future superstar and, yes, maybe this coming seasons Calder Trophy winner. I wonder what averaging half a point a game in the AHL will translate to in the NHL? Of course, he has those great intangibles of well Ill think of it and get back to you

  • yesitscal

    Anonymous, horses’ asses can be quite attractive, depending on the hourse.

  • Quisp

    Re who will play more games, Doughty or Tukonen: uh, I think Doughty by a factor of 10.

    Re Staples or Forum: all I can say is, when I got my season seats at the Forum, I selected what was for me my dream seats, 11 rows up, between the blue-line and the hash-marks, opposite the benches, at the end where the Kings shoot twice. when they built staples and season ticket holders were allowed to visit and pick their seats, I discovered that my dream seats simply did not exist. The “bowl” at staples is much shallower than at the forum (due, I guess, to those three stories of boxes), so that my 11th row seats (which I considered to be the ideal height from the ice) were much, much farther away from the glass at staples than the same row at the Forum. in order to get close enough to the ice, I would have had to select seats in the fifth or six row, which was much too LOW for me. so that was it. no more season seats.

    I preferred the old buildings, having gone to games in the old Boston Garden, Chicago Stadium and Olympia in Detroit. I’ll never forget my first Red Wings game. The seats were so steep at Olympia that my feet were at the same level as the head of the person in the row in front of me. I played one game at Olympia with my pee-wee team, and I remember being freaked out by the crowd. It was like a wall of people. It wasn’t like looking at people in stadium seating. It was like a bunch of people tacked up to a wall, hanging over you and shouting. And smoking.

    Ah, those were the days.

  • Quisp

    I just mentioned Olympia to my parents, and my mom said she hated the seating because she was afraid she was going to FALL.

  • Captain Material

    cristobal-

    Glad you mentioned the seggration thing. One of the first things I noticed early on is that as you ride the escalator up to the heavens they give you wonderful views of all the areas you won’t be allowed to go as you climb.

    “Hey, check out that place where they’re making those great looking sandwiches…oh yeah, I’m not allowed on that level of the building.”

    That whole building just screams loud and clear who does and does not matter in the big picture of corporate controlled America. Die hards in the cheap seats? Push ‘em up 30 feet so we can sit and watch the game on lcd screens in the lux boxes…

  • cristobal

    yesitscal – I can see why you’re upset. I did ‘dis’ the O2 arena. maybe you’re financially tied to it or something.

    this part – The Dome project was conceived, originally on a somewhat smaller scale, under John Major’s Conservative government, as a Festival of Britain or World’s
    Fair-type showcase to celebrate the third millennium – was cut and pasted directly out of wikipedia, i didn’t write it. If they are incorrect, I apologize, just went snooping. Yet you didn’t give me any proof to the contrary, rather you stated your opinion as fact.

    In a shocking coincidence, if you’re correct, AEG bought two white elephants because the Kings were just out of Bankruptcy when AEG purchased, right?

    One thing that doesn’t add up about Millenium Dome/02 arena controversy is this: if you’re trying to cover the proverbial ‘white elephant’ you speak of, wouln’t you build on top of the elephant rather than inside it? The Dome is still there so I don’t know how it covers up something Londoners didn’t want, and don’t want to be reminded of.

    AEG and their real estate business really don’t interest me. It’s much like me talking about football and alex ferguson and you don’t care. I like the Kings, not AEG. I think that’s been one of the most obvious things about what i’ve said. As far as knowing how to win, you’re half right. They own the Houston Dynamo and i think they’ve won 2 MLS cups in a row. Kings fans might find that interesting because they were moved to Houston from San Jose (six degrees of separation) the summer before their 1st championship. Also, AEG owned half of the teams in the league up to just a few years ago and created the league, so if they couldn’t win, it’d be pretty pathetic.

    As far as their real estate swindles (i mean success) i can’t argue with you. I’m no billionaire. I’m also proud to see that they’ve turned around our city providing jobs for the thousands lining skid row, customers for the 13 year old mexican heroin dealers, and funds for the protection racket that thrives in charming the downtown they so lovingly restored. The history of Los Angeles is represented well by the neon showcase of Staples. I’m also proud that the Kings could be their footstool. Come to think of it – If Phil buys everything he can bring back feudalism and he’ll really be a King.

    Man do you hate Tukonen. What did he ever do to you? If he ever plays in Staples again I fear for his life.
    Really, my statements about him and the calder were tongue in cheek but to answer your questions about 1/2 a point per game average, maybe we’ll find out from Trevor Lewis and Cliche. I’d ask Guliano and Zeiler, but they never reached that average.

    cheers

  • cristobal

    quisp – this year i said.

  • cristobal

    quisp – great stories about detroit and playing there. Smoking….awesome.

  • cristobal

    quisp – those two posts are great, really. how old are you?

  • JDM

    I can agree wholeheartedly that the Forum was the ultimate HOCKEY stadium. Concerts can be fun there too… especially since its the only time I visit the place anymore… memories.

    While I do like some things about Staples, such as, while the seats aren’t ideal, they aren’t any horribly atrocious seats that severely hinder my view like a few I got at the Forum (never really had the pleasure of sitting low at the Forum, generally I sat in the very very last row – which I admit was truly amazing). It’s definately better than the Ducks arena, which I absolutely despise on every level. Classed up colors and adornments but no less grungy… atleast the Forum knows its a trash heap and gives you the trough! Staples is nice looking, but there isn’t much of a feel to it, and I agree about it being segregated.

    My favorite/most ridiculous memory is my first at Staples. If I may I think you’ll all appreciate this –
    I went to one of the first games at Staples with my dad, cousin and grandfather. Big boys night out. We got low seats, maybe 10th row up just off to one side of the ice. So my dad, cousin and I are yelling and swearing and getting into the game. Cursing the refs, profane exclaims of joy, etc… you know, almost like we were watching a live hockey game.

    Anyways this guy with his girlfriend in front of us kept giving us dirty looks. Finally he turns around and tells me to shut-up and stop cursing. I laughed. My cousin was on one side of me, my dad the other, and my grandpa at the far end. The guy got angry that I basically told him to buzz off and calm down, I’m just having fun.

    So he yells at me, at which point my crazy cousin and his napoleon complex grits his teeth and gets in this guys face and says “Listen punk, this is a hockey game, not the freaking ballet. If you don’t like it you shouldn’t be here.” The guy proclaims he is just trying to enjoy the game with his girlfriend and that our loudness is disrupting that. They get into this big fight, the guy trying to act tough in front of his woman, and they almost take it outside. We couldn’t stop laughing that this guy got upset that we were loud at a hockey game.

    I think this story really set the tone for a lot of Staples center, like Captain Material mentioned, being pretty cold and full of people you would never have seen at the great GREAT western forum. No one ever got upset no matter how loud and riled up I got at the Forum, at Staples people look at me like I’m crazy sometimes… even in the cheap seats where I typically sit.

    All in all though, I’m neutral to kind of ok with Staples. I can’t honestly say I hate it, but the Forum was certainly a better place to watch a hockey game.

  • JDM

    oh yeah, thank you Duckhuntedr for the kind words… who doesn’t appreciate a good love fest? ;) .

  • Quisp

    Cristobal -

    I’m 44.

    re tukonen v. doughty games played, I was thinking about this year, too. I guess I’m assuming Doughty plays the whole season with the big club and Tukonen gets in 5-10 games if he’s lucky.

    Thinking about old rinks, I have fond memories of watching Michigan State games pre-74 in the old Dem Hall, which was a converted riding arena (as in horses) which had frequently been used for livestock exhibitions. The place had bats. There was chain link fence instead plexiglass and we used to love standing in the corners because when there would be a bone-crunching check you would get showered in sweat. As an eight year old, that was a big feature!

  • yesitscal

    JDM, I know this is off-topic, so I apologize to all my fellow posters, but have the acoustics for concerts at the Forum improved at all? I attended too many concerts to remember there in the 70′s and 80′s, but it was one of the worst places for good sound!

  • cristobal

    JDM – Memories that can never be relived. unless I, along with you guys of course, buy the kings and move them back. Could you imagine? I think if i bought the kings i’d change the name….maybe not. I don’t know. What would you guys do?

    By the way, JDM, for crowd behavior like that is just unacceptable. You really give Angelino’s a bad name.

    quisp – your name. to me it sounds like your terry crisp and people, your players, with no teeth pronounce it quisp.

    Those are great memories. I wish i had them. I grew up here and have never been to a real top college game. Maybe i should make a point of making it a priority to go back east and go. I’d imagine the schools in michigan, mass. and penn. would all have great atmosphere at their games.
    I played for a local college and Berkeley’s rink, at the time, had chain link around the end boards, nothing between the blue lines but the fairly low wall. The bad part was how dark it was in there, the surface and boards weren’t bad in my mind. I can’t imagine what the old rodeo building must’ve been like, but I would love to have been there.
    One sports memory, non-hockey (if thats cool yesitscal) is of the 84 Olympics. My pops took me to the Boxing. I will never, hopefully, forget. Just 14 that summer, but Holyfield fought and was disqualified on a corrupt call for punching after the bell – Absolute tragedy for the young man. The atmosphere in there was crazy, though. Only boxing event ever for me (at the time i watched on tv with pops a bit) and it was mostly men, really kinda sweaty, it was just unlike anything in my experience. The Rams, that was great at the Colliseum….i’ll stop now. sorry yestical.

  • JDM

    Aw come now cristobal, some rambuncous interactivity with the game on the ice is part of being a fan. I’m also not someone who really condems words for being words. What’s unnaceptable is to go to a hockey game, where people are being brutalized and slammed left and right, and be surprised that some of the 18,000 people are yelling and cheering. I think the worst actual word we said was bullsh*t, and maybe putz… cause we’re jews ;) .

  • Quisp

    JDM/Cristobal –

    Your exchange about what’s appropriate is reminding me of a game at the forum about ten or twelve years ago when they were doing that jumbotron thing of showing people in the crowd and they put this top-heavy woman on the big screen and she lifts up her shirt. there’s like a collective gasp and predictably cheers and mothers covering their sons’ eyes, etc.. Anybody remember that?

  • cristobal

    quisp – are you serious about that last one. that is great.

    jdm – got the sarcasm, right?

  • yesitscal

    C’mon, guys, you all know that Cristobal has to always have the last word and, of course, be right. He’s the only one who’s allowed to exhibit any type of questionable behavior. The next time you go to a game, make sure you don’t make too much noise, sit on your hands and, for heaven’s sake, please don’t disturb the person in front of you!

  • cristobal

    Terry Crisp Center
    Born May 28 1943 — Parry Sound, ONT
    Height 5.10 — Weight 170 — Shoots L

    Regular Season Playoffs
    Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM GP G A Pts PIM
    1961-62 Niagara Falls Flyers OHA 50 16 22 38 0
    1962-63 Niagara Falls Flyers OHA Statistics Unavailable
    1963-64 Minneapolis Bruins CPHL 42 15 20 35 22 – – – – –
    1964-65 Minneapolis Bruins CPHL 70 28 34 62 22 5 0 2 2 0
    1965-66 Boston Bruins NHL 3 0 0 0 0 – – – – –
    1965-66 Oklahoma City Blazers CPHL 61 11 22 33 35 9 1 5 6 0
    1966-67 Oklahoma City Blazers CPHL 69 31 42 73 37 11 3 7 10 0
    1967-68 St. Louis Blues NHL 73 9 20 29 10 18 1 5 6 6
    1968-69 St. Louis Blues NHL 57 6 9 15 14 12 3 4 7 20
    1968-69 Kansas City Blues CHL 4 1 1 2 4 – – – – –
    1969-70 St. Louis Blues NHL 26 5 6 11 2 16 2 3 5 2
    1969-70 Buffalo Bisons AHL 51 15 34 49 14 – – – – –
    1970-71 St. Louis Blues NHL 54 5 11 16 13 6 1 0 1 2
    1971-72 St. Louis Blues NHL 75 13 18 31 12 11 1 3 4 2
    1972-73 New York Islanders NHL 54 4 16 20 6 – – – – –
    1972-73 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 12 1 5 6 2 11 3 2 5 2
    1973-74 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 71 10 21 31 28 17 2 2 4 4
    1974-75 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 71 8 19 27 20 9 2 4 6 0
    1975-76 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 38 6 9 15 28 10 0 5 5 2
    1976-77 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 2 0 0 0 0 – – – – –
    NHL Totals 536 67 134 201 135 110 15 28 43 40

  • cristobal

    well, that didn’t work. I used to love to hate terry crisp, would absolutely love to meet the guy.

  • Vic Venasky

    COME ON NOW PEOPLE. GET A GRIP (AND A LIFE!)
    OUTSIDE OF KINGS HOCKEY, IF THAT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE.

    NO NEED TO ARGUE, FOR WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME SIDE.

    KINGS FANS

    240plus posts, on this rhetorical topic.

    PLEASE RICH, throw us a REAL bone to chew on!

  • BringBackKingston

    Cristobal,
    I don’t understand the significance of limiting the search to only players who have played at least 40 games in either the past 2 seasons. But i’ll play along with the names you listed. you added the total points of the DT and DL players listed, and then stated that those numbers support your opinion that DT is a better drafter after the 1st round. however, i don’t think aggregate points tells much other than a player may have been around longer than another. for example, a guy drafted in ’97 is likely to have more points than a guy drafted in ’92 simply because he’s played in more games.

    so i looked at the points per game for the players you listed.

    pts gms
    Cammalleri 205 283
    Visnovsky 279 499
    Corvo 162 353
    Kaberle 185 493
    Lilja 59 398
    McGrattan 10 143
    Parros 11 158
    Huet 3 183
    ——————————–
    total 914 2510 = .36 pts/gm
    take huet out and it’s .39 pts/gm

    Ehrhoff 90 264
    Clowe 44 91
    D. Murray 14 135
    Cheechoo 262 375
    M. Samuelsson 168 385
    Mark Smith 70 377
    Matt Bradley 95 411
    ———————————
    total 743 2038 = .36 pts/gm

    don’t forget that DT had 2 more drafts than DL did as the SJ GM.

    and to break it down another way…

    total non-1st round picks and how many played +200 games

    DT
    76 non-1st round picks
    5 players with +200 games

    DL
    43 non-1st round picks
    5 players with +200 games

    and back to 1st round picks (not counting a top 3 pick for either team since you like to point that out)…

    DT
    11 1st round picks
    3 with +200 games

    DL
    5 1st round picks
    3 with +200 games

    subject to change as there are players for both teams approaching 200 games.

  • JDM

    For as sarcastic as I typically am Cristobal, I really wasn’t being sarcastic. I agree with the second half of yesticals very sarcastic comment. I don’t like ‘PC’ culture, because its not the rest of the worlds responsibility to ensure I don’t insulted or offended, nor mine theirs. Anyways, whole different talk for a whole different forum.

    I don’t remember the flasher Quisp, but I do remember a long haired, bearded fellow smile and flip off the camera on the jumbotron say maybe 6-8 years ago? He was smiling and laughing, and really just goofing around, but the whole stadium booed and hissed. I think the problem is everyone wants to ‘feel good’ but has a different conception of how to acheive that or what the entails. Those that fall under the more sensitive category are a little self righteous as they are backed up by business and personal ‘etiquette’… whereas my kind, the slobbering, cursing, yelling, screaming fun seekers, we only have the 1st amendment to back us up. Ok fine… so I was a bit sarcastic there =).

  • cristobal

    JDM – I meant that when I said, “By the way, JDM, for crowd behavior like that is just unacceptable. You really give Angelino’s a bad name.” I was being sarcastic. I hope you didn’t think I really meant it. If other fan’s don’t like passionate behavior and language, they shouldn’t go to a sporting event. They can watch from home.

  • cristobal

    BBK – I’ll get back to you and explain why i chose those standards.

  • JDM

    Ah, gotcha cristo, my mistake… it’s really amazing, I use sarcasm constantly and yet I have trouble identifying it. I was kind of crossing my eyes like “but wait, English soccer fans are some of the craziest, most obnoxious fans in the world!” Haha. When I was in London on the underground there would be huge groups of drunken loons signing in the cars at the top of their lungs… catchy tunes, sung in garbled cockney speak.

    And yes, they can, and should, watch from home. Sometimes I make exceptions for children, because I do love watching little dudes get into the game… but only sometimes.

  • JDM

    drunken loons **singing** in cars… no one wanted their autograph

  • cristobal

    JDM – Sarcasm and humor (poor attempts at humor from me) can often go completely unrecognized in this type of communication. Especiallly because we don’t really know the personalities of the people we’re communicating with well. I did think you might get it being that I had recommended that book “among the thugs.” Its funny your experience in the tube station because that is exactly how the book opens. He is so fascinated by the mob behavior and its acceptance by the other passengers that he, being a journalist, dives into. Its quite fascinating really.

    real busy today, talk to you soon, maybe later, though.

    cheers

  • BringBackKingston

    here’s another thing to think about when comparing point totals of those drafted. if you take a very simple view that the round picked indicates the likely offensive output of the player once in the nhl, then point totals don’t really mean a whole lot. while there are always exceptions, a guy picked in the 5th round, for instance, isn’t very likely to be a 1st or 2nd line player. instead the guy will probably fill the role of a 3rd or 4th line forward or bottom six defenseman. basically a lower draft pick is more of a role player and will score less over the life of their career. but no matter the type of player the draft pick becomes, what is important is that they can fill that role for a long career.

  • cristobal

    BBK – i’ll try to be concise with my theory.

    first – i think that looking for 40+ games over the last 2 seasons will find players that are still relevant. for instance, niko dimitrakos has over 200 games but is out of the nhl.

    second – where you’re drafted just means that’s what the scouts placed your prospective level of success. Like a Jonathan Cheechoo (50 goal scorer) in the second round I consider a great pick.

    third – the first round, while averaging the most players that stick in the nhl for a career, is rarely sure fire after the first 3-5. I could be wrong and there is probably a specific average, but off the top of my head i would think its somewhere near there. maybe its actually closer to 10???

    four – i believe that the players in Taylors resume, after the 2nd round, show that he got more quality in the later rounds, even if they have yet to reach 200 games, they’re still working.

    five – i don’t think the difference in years drafting (five vs. 7) is too relevant because they are closest on the time line and none of the players on my list come from those 2 years after Lombardi was fired.

    six – with all due respect, your number of 200 was kind of random as well and, i think, suggested by someone else. If you agree that 200 games is a better gauge I am open to listening to the reasoning.

    seven – first round picks must be judged differently and we could go into a whole other world with it. i’m game.

    cheers

  • wavesinair

    I was out and about the rest of yesterday, but enjoyed all the comments this morning over coffee. Some excellent educational points and I appreciate the (thoughtful) analysis and criticism. Im obviously a frustrated fan, like many of you, and as much as I will root for my Kings to kick and scratch their way into contention, I am still really skeptical of where were headed this season.

    -J said: I think you need to define veteran leadership.

    Good point. I mainly mean NHL EXPERIENCE resulting in very smart, cunning, resilient players. These are the kind of players I love watching. Guys that have been in the trenches year in and year out. Guys like Blake, Cammalleri, Visnovsky, Stuart, Kostopoulos, Conroy, Avery, Norstrom, Modry, Miller, Demitra, Corvo, Belanger, Palffy, Laperriere, Straka and ahh, Deadmarsh (the perfect player). Obviously not all of these guys are all-stars, but hopefully you get my point. Theyre good IMO and theyre gone.

    So yes, fruitful experience goes far with me. It would be nice if they were leaders too (in the strict sense of the word) but you cant have too many chiefs. I personally think, and please tell me what you all think, but one solid leader on a hockey team is all you need. And that player emerges naturally.

    So back to whos on our club this season that qualifies Certainly not Greene! Or even Stoll. Not our young nucleus (as Js analysis and conclusion supports). Not even Armstrong because his hockey IQ is like 64. I put Calder, Handzus, and yes Dont taze me Fro Frolov in that category. 3 guys. By my definition, we are seriously lacking. If you have to go back to the 80s to find a team that pulled it off this inexperienced, it doesnt bode well for us.

    Its just the way I look at the situation. Sure Brown will be a monster in a year or two, but right now hes just becoming a man. Hes in the trenches, but he just go there. Hes still maturing mentally and psychologically. And your concern about meaningful ice time was just a kitchen sink point. Theres plenty of room for good vets when I look at the roster, but wed have to define meaningful and go into the particulars.

    JDM said: So it’s a young D for sure, but not without some experience. I think with the right system they will surprise But I think we freak out a tad that there is NO veteran leadership.

    I know you mean surprise in a good way, but it could very easily be a surprise the other way. Like horrific. But yeah, there is a bit of freaking. Hedican would help ease my concerns (theyd call him Grampy Brett and hed skate with both a cane AND a stick). But seriously, hes a stud.

    As for many of our young D have had huge responsibility roles at international tournaments. This only has POTENTIAL relevance at best. But by my example, it has zero practical application. We are likely to have 2 rookies at D tops. Technically, yeah. But you fail to mention we only have 1, I repeat, just 1 veteran who played full time in the NHL last year. That is scary bad in my book ok Im starting to freak out again. depending on how you count Harrold, with 37 NHL games under his belt. I love a good laugh! Nosrstrom, Modry or Blake sure look nice now. Shoot, Id be happy with Klemm.

    Moving on great point about Forwards and D helping and influencing each other. Any good team does this, even in football where the lines are much more defined. As for my favorite Bernier, I have joked about him starting this year, but I certainly wouldnt do it. LaBarbara is our goalie this year. Under the circumstances, hes a good fit. Well see what the injury bug has in store for him, but I hope he has a solid season cause I like the guy.

    The guy proclaims he is just trying to enjoy the game with his girlfriend and that our loudness is disrupting that.

    Classic. I love it. I have had that experience so many times in LA. I dont know what its like elsewhere around the country, but my guess is that LA fans, in general, are more prone to PFS (poopy fan syndrome). Some of us get it, but most of us are waaaay to laid back. But theres no doubt that for the most part, the more expensive the seats, the less the cheering. I remember that at the forum too. Even at concerts. Not always, but the vast majority of the time it was true. Psychologically, when you spend a ton on a ticket, you feel more entitled. Especially now days. Im always very impressed by futball fans across the pond. They really know how to root for their team. Thats one of the main reasons I LOVE going to Galaxy games because of the supporter group called the riot squad. 2 full sections of non-stop, no sitting, hilarious cheering right here in LA!

    Quisp said: Im 44. You know quisp, I appreciate that. Knowing our ages. That is a MAJOR drawback to blogging not knowing the kind of people were talking too. Theres a lot to be said for being able to look someone in they eye. And I think in some ways, knowing a persons age helps with that connection (or lack of). Im 37.

    General note:

    Double, triple, and quadruple consecutive posting MUST STOP. Seriously. Its absolutely ridiculous. In one section cristobal (sorry to point the finger) has 5 out of 6 consecutive posts. In one of them, he even says he has to think about his GM pick WHILE HES TYPING! and then he gives his answer. Unbelievable. Put your friggin thoughts into ONE post and click send. Then wait for someone else to post. If you have diarrhea of the mouth, put a diaper on your face.

  • -J

    Wavesinair- I thought I understood your definition of vet leadership (guys with a fair amount of NHL experience, apparently regardless of whether or nor they are good teachers or good influences) until you went and changed it when you got to the current roster. How can Cammalleri and Kostopolous be vet leaders and Stoll and Greene not?
    Stoll and Greene don’t have much less regular season experience than those guys, and they’ve been to the finals, which the others haven’t. Hell, Cammalleri’s never even been to the playoffs, nor had Kos when he was in L.A. Also, Brown’s played like 15 less games than Cammalleri, but you don’t count him?

    If you’re going to count the likes of Straka and some of those others, don’t just throw out Armstrong because of your obvious dislike of him- other players and coaches speak highly of his hockey smarts and they know a heck of a lot more about the game than you or I. You’ve also gotta count Preissing and Gauthier, cus they’ve both put in time comprable to the guys you listed.

    So really, by extending your definition, the Kings are not so much in need of leadership (possibly), but rather mentors. How many do you think are needed? If you count Armstrong, Gauth, and Preissing, which should certainly fit if some of the players you listed do, that gives the Kings 6 (7 if you count Brown) vets to mentor the kids. Saying you want to have a vet-to-line/d-pair ratio of 1-to-1, which seems reasonable given the roster size limit and the desire to develop some youngsters this year, then the Kings need to have 7, perhaps 8 as a spare.

    Getting back to the available space on the roster (not sure what you mean by this being a “kitchen sink” point beyond blowing it off and saying its not valid), as Quisp broke it down, and perhaps you missed this, there is not space for more than 1-2 vets (all that would be needed to meet the ratio above) unless you cut time from a younster. No need to really debate meaningful icetime- in this situation, you’ve got the youth sitting out games (= 0 ice time); might as well just put them in Manchester.

    Anyways, got to cut- i just realized it’s almost 2 and i’ve got a game at 8 A.M. I agree they need vets to serve as mentors, but i still don’t see it being as dire a situation as some are making it out to be.
    What really matters IMO is not having an abundance of adequate mentors, it’s having an adequate number of excellent mentors. I have absolutley no personal knowledge on who fits that bill, on the kings or on any team in the league, so i’ll leave it at that.

    BTW- I didn’t HAVE to go back to the 80′s to pick a team; i just picked a team that I see some parrallels in with the Kings youth- i guess i just dated myself a little, huh.

  • Quisp

    NHL games played:
    Handzus 599
    Calder 502
    Gauthier 489
    Armstrong 415
    Frolov 378
    Preissing 300
    Stoll 286
    Brown 269

    I would count these players as veterans.

  • JDM

    I was curious how the average ages of teams in the league stacked up. I figured the Kings would be the youngest, what’s interesting is they are by a full year. What’s more interesting to me though, is that the Penguins are closer to the middle of the pack than I thought, and some teams that sucks almost as bad as we have some of the oldest teams, like the Islanders and Thrashers. Don’t know how much any of this means but thought you might find it interesting. All 30 teams listing from youngest to oldest.

    Average Age (as of what each website lists are current roster – anywhere from 18 to 30 players – so these will obviously fluctuate after training camps)

    Kings – 25
    Coyotes – 26.15
    Oilers – 26.32
    Canadiens – 26.41
    Hawks – 26.47
    Rangers – 26.68
    Jackets – 26.88
    Wild – 27.04
    Penguins – 27.26
    Flyers – 27.27
    Blues – 27.37
    Leafs – 27.6
    Predators – 27.63
    Bruins – 27.65
    Senators – 27.67
    Canucks – 27.7
    Sabres – 27.75
    Capitals – 27.8
    Sharks – 27.83
    Lightning – 27.9
    Avalanche – 27.92
    Panthers – 27.95
    Stars – 28.08
    Islanders – 28.36
    Flames – 28.5
    Hurricanes – 28.54
    Thrashers – 28.57
    Wings – 29.07
    Ducks – 29.5
    Devils – 29.56

  • cristobal

    wavesinair – check the times on the consecutive posts. often, i post something because i’m thinking it, then it leads me to another thought. often there are not may people posting at a certian time. anyway, i didn’t force you to enjoy it with your coffee. negative attention is better than none at all, right. And i’m sure rich likes looking at the lineup of Daily News sports blogs and seeing zeros on the comments section for the lakers and usc football while his is drowning in hundreds. we’ll soon be drowning in advertising i believe.

    on the GM posts in my pleasant conversations with yesitscal – I wanted him to feel like he could teach me a thing or two, so i said tell “me who????” I had already looked it up on wikipedia because I didn’t know who Detroits GM was at the time. What I discovered was amazing, really. I guess I got so excited by it that I just wanted to post it and share it. But if you check out the post about the former GM, its a good lesson for the Kings. It also made me look up Glen Sather and again, i found it amazing.

  • cristobal

    Its a good point that Stoll has Stanley Cup Finals experience. I tend to forget that when thinking Stoll. He was a good leader among a good group of young leaders. It seemed he and pisani and greene, not to mention moreau and Horcoff all did a great job of sharing the load. I also didn’t realize gauthier had so many games. if he can be a good leader on the defense because of his experience, it could change things a lot in terms of confidence. Plus, with his tendency to be a little nasy himself, there’s no need to rush in a teubert before he fills out a little more.

  • yesitscal

    wavesinair, we get it now. Some people like negative attention better than taking the time to make intelligent remarks and having his comments seen as insightful rather than inciteful. Really, I think that some people should spend less time blogging and more time looking for a job so that people like you and me don’t have to support them with our taxpayer dollars.

  • wavesinair

    I love this thread. I dont want it to die. Lets get to 300 without cristobal. ;)

    J, thanks for the response. I can see you gave it some serious thought. And I get what youre saying but I feel you missed my underlying point. My definition is not just based on just numbers, as you seem to use as your only criteria. So yes, according to your stats, we have 7 vets to mentor the kids. According to my definition we still only have 3.

    As I said, smarts, cunning, resilience matter. I think mentoring is a good thing, but that goes beyond my definition of the kind of players we lack. As long as he knows the league, is sharp, is nobodys fool, and is tough, then thats what matters to me. These are intangibles. You cant categorize them. They are much more subtle, and I think much more interesting criteria than this guy played x number of games so you have to include him. No I dont. And we can agree to disagree on them but I dont think you should discount intangibles just because you dont have personal knowledge and you havent sat in on meetings and practices and dont know the players personally. That takes away so much of what makes hockey fun to be a fan of. Its not just wild speculation. Its studying human behavior, something I know a little about.

    The guys I mentioned were already HERE, established on the team (some more or less and I added some obviously as hyperbole.) Knowing the team, having been here, matters to me. Stoll and Greene are not such established players that they can walk on a team and command instant respect. Cammalleri and Kostopolous (and others) would have had a huge advantage over them having been part of the building process for x number of years. Well see how the new guys fit in. I hope they do. But no, they dont fit the bill to start this season for me. Maybe by next year, but not now.

    Yes I happily put Cammallari ahead of Brown. Based on my impressions, Cammy was way ahead of Brown in smarts and maturity. Cammy would have been the clear leader of this team this year if he stayed. Hes that kind of guy and we blew it. Arbitration ruined it. People said he was a selfish player and I couldnt disagree more. I think hell have a fantastic year in Calgary. Yet another guy who leaves the Kings and has a stellar career. Well see.

    And no, I dont include Preissing or Denis Gauthier. Denis spent all of last year in the AHL and he just got here. He hardly fits the bill. And Preissing, he has the experience, and hes been here a year, but he lacks the resiliency or grit and Im not sold on his smarts. But mainly, Ive seen him get pushed around way too much to include him. Face washing without retaliation is not my kind of defenseman.

    Don’t just throw out Armstrong because of your obvious dislike of him. On the contrary, I like Army, he seems like a very cool guy. He has experience, hes very resilient and tough, but to be blunt, every time Ive seen him interviewed, he doesnt sound very smart at all. And his play on the ice has proved that over and over again for me. He has poor ice vision. Do you think he makes smart plays most of the time? Ive never heard anyone say Army has great hockey smarts and theyre certainly not going to say that he doesnt in public. Many compliments during interviews are just smoke blowing after a leading question by the interviewer. We have to decide ourselves by watching and listening, not looking up a number on hockey db.

    Kitchen sink just meant piling on. Supporting your argument with everything but the kitchen sink. Your point wasnt supported in that particular post. I did miss Quisps post so maybe you were dovetailing off that and it was supported prior. No need to really debate meaningful ice time. Ok. I just think you can have meaningful ice time in Manchester depending on who it is and for how long. I also think practicing with the big club is meaningful ice time and getting game time here and there with injuries or slumps. But you can dismiss that as irrelevant if you choose.

    Thanks JDM for doing that math. I didnt realize our team was a full year younger either. That particular number, along with my assessment of the team as it stands today, does lead me to believe we are in a dire situation this year. There are, of course, so many other factors that will bear all of this out, but as Ive said before, it seems reckless to me to risk the development of our young guys in this way.

    Cristobal, if you knew anything about online advertising, which I do, you would know inflated numbers are not a good thing and will come back to bite you. So besides being rude, your posting behavior can actually have a negative effect on the blog. I didn’t force you to enjoy it with your coffee. Cute. I said nothing of the content. It’s called etiquette, something that you very obviously lack. Youve been here two weeks, so let me tell you again. What youre doing is not ok newbie. Hopefully others will speak up when this happens on a regular basis, if not, oh well.

  • yesitscal

    Wavesinair, I think that Cristobal said it all when he said in one post that negative attention is better than none at all. I, for one, am going to try to ignore is assinine posts because I long longer wish to contribute to his psychopathy.

  • cristobal

    wavesinair – i haven’t read the etiquette rules for this site anywhere. i’ll be glad to abide by them if you point them out to me.
    300 posts without me??? show me where this site has 200 without me. by the way, its august.
    i know nothing about sales. if rich asks me to leave, i’d be glad to oblige. if i were an advertiser, however, i’d look for bloated numbers in the posts. like i said, go look at the daily news blogs for the lakers and usc football, there’s nothing. where would you prefer to advertise?
    finally, if you just can’t stand me, don’t read my posts. its simple.

  • cristobal

    Remember, this whole thread is Lombardi’s responsibility. If he’d just sign the players everyone here seems to want him to sign, and he kept his ‘warnings’ to other GM’s to himself, we could all fill the comments section with zeroes. As it is, he’s mixing his cool-aid and deluding himself with the idea that he can reinvent the wheel.

    Also, wavesinair, i don’t know where you went to cotillion, but you’re not supposed to call people dumb like you did with Armstrong. The guys getting old, in hockey terms, and he still has something to add even though throughout his career he was often written off. He may not be Mark Messier, but questioning his off ice intelligence is not too bright. Even i’ve never said anything like that about Guliano and Zeiler. Armstrong’s slowing down, that’s all, and he’s got character for days. I will always remember Bob Miller saying years ago, that Armstrong reportedly was asked what he’s going to do after retiring from hockey, he said, “eat everything.” Wit, in my books, is a sign of intelligence.

  • JDM

    yestical – sorry to not catch your question about forum acoustics until just now. The last concert I attended there was a Muse show almost 2 years ago now. The acoustics were great, improved from 10 or so years ago, but then again, I’ve seen Muse several times and they sound better than everyone else regardless of the venue, so who knows if it was more them or more the acoustics. Either way, the forum CAN sound pretty darn good.

    J and wavesinair, one thing you both seem to agree on is discounting Gauthier because he played in the AHL last year. True, but Klemm spent most of his time in Manchester and was a bright spot when called up. If Gauthier performs anything like Klemm I’ll be happy. From my understanding, because of Gauthier’s contract, part of his ‘demotion’ was cap motivated, not purely talent, or lack there of. Cheaper to have Lasse Kukkonen play 50 some odd games.

    wavesinair – I totally disagree when you discount a player’s collegiate, junior and minor league acheivements. Scoring and talent level may shift when a jump to the NHL is made for sure, happens constantly. However, leadership qualities, fire in the belly, hunger to win, ability to lead, these things, the ‘intangibles’ you talk about, do not simply vanish because everyone on the ice is bigger and faster. In fact, in a true competitor, these things only fuel that fire. I’m not saying our defense will be amazing, but that I almost get the sense that people worry they will be running around like chickens with their heads cut off. I think this is where that solidarity in leadership skills DL has aqcuired will ‘surprise’ everyone the most. Sure, they will get beat…a lot most likely, but personally I think they will be a much more ‘composed’ defense. Last year, Crawford had his head up his butt, freaking out Vis by putting him on the wrong half of the ice. Modry is a great personal mentor (as touched on by JJ), but no TEAM leader, I love Stuart, but again, not a leader. I don’t know if Gauthier is a leader, but I know Greene is, Doughty is, Hickey is, Tuebert is, the guys coming through the pipeline are mostly all leaders. Don’t talk about how important intangibles are, but discredit a players intangibles just because they haven’t proven it at this level yet(heavily paraphrasing your last few posts).

    Also, as far as players sounding smart in interviews, while I agree with you that it is fun and important to judge character based on what you read in a person’s eyes or tone of voice, I don’t think them have “smarts outside of hockey” means all that much to their hockey game… let’s remember, these guys spend their lives having their brains rattled. It’s nice hearing someone who can speak eloquently like Kopitar. However, a guy like Brown has proven to be a leader on the ice and in the locker room, has shown ample hockey smarts, both offensive and defensive awareness, and great vision. But when I first met him his first year on the team at a signing event, he seemed to speak less English than the foreigners on the team! I thought he was a dolt. I’m sure really he was just nervous, and has probably gotten better about public appearances since. Talking to a microphone or a fan or a reporter is a skill most of these guys don’t really learn until they get close to this level, it isn’t part of their training routine or a side dish with their wheaties. Not everyone speaks well in public or with a camera in their face, I don’t think this is a fair mark of intelligence.

    As far as the age of the Kings in relation to the league goes, the more I think about it, I’m excited that we will have such a young team. That average will get younger if Bernier and/or Doughty makes the team, or maybe a little older if we sign Hedican or Carney. Either way, seeing how young the Canadiens were was really encouraging. Ultimately, I think breaking down all that math did was prove for me that age isn’t really all that big of a factor in and off itself. Obviously it has nothing to do with NHL experience, there are 33 year olds with less than 300 games on some teams and 25 year olds with almost 500 on others. It’s interesting to debate though.

    Re: Double – triple posting, etc. Doesn’t bother me. I know sometimes I do it because I write something, then someone responds, so I type out my response which takes a few minutes and then when I send it and refresh, I see someone ELSE has responded just after the first response… so I respond to that that, and there you go, double post without meaning to or ‘forgetting’ any thoughts. Other times, I literally just forget to say something I meant to say, and instead of waiting until someone else posts, which usually means I will have forgotten or the point will now be off-topic, I just quickly punch it in. I understand how inflated hits can be a detriment in the crazy world of internet advertising, but I don’t think it’s a problem here, the numbers are not inflated, because as we all know, tons of people frequent this site regularly and post regularly. Sure, there may be an inordinant amount of cristobal posts, but there are certainly MANY others to go along with it. If he were one of 2 or 3 people in the entire thread and there were 100+ posts, then perhaps that inflation issue might come to bear something, so while there is validity in the argument, I don’t see it as applicable here. If double posts just bug you on a visceral level… erm… oh well, it’s just black characters against a white background.

    Back to the ‘topic,’ if there still is one, I am starting to worry about getting Stoll and O’Sullivan signed. Not concerned too much with Richardson. I have been very positive and still am, but this week and the next if we don’t hear anything then I will start worrying. Crunch time is approaching. I like DL’s record and imprint in SJ, however the Nabakov hold-out keeps coming up in my mind. I don’t want to see that with one, let alone two key players. This teams needs to be together and moving forward from training camp on without looking back.

    I did have a dream last night that I punched Dean Lombardi in the face… don’t remember why though… hmmmm….

    300 posts here we come, ALL ABOARD!

  • cristobal

    JDM – I kinda disagree with you on the young leader issue. I have admitted that I think i underestimated the presence of Greene and Stoll a bit, but let me try out a metaphor. Compare the NHL to war, which it can be akin to in a way.

    In a war, you could imagine soldiers going into battle with no experience becoming shell shocked, afraid, disorganized, confused, injured and killed. If there are no veterans who have been through the wars to tell the youth that “today is one day, there will be losses and there will be victories to come; I’ve been through this before and the other side has suffered losses even though we cannot see it right now; just because we lost today and we are in pain does not mean we cannot regroup and regain the upper hand;” you risk surrender really. There have been many players touted as leaders who’ve never stuck. Kris Beech, Maxim Oullett, even Adam Mair were all supposed to be promising young leaders. Yet they were never brought along and they will likely never reach the level they could have. Blake, even, I never considered a real leader. With his play, yes; but his body language, no. I do agree with wavesinair, though it pains me to say it, that Cammalleri looked to contribute more leadership than Brown. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that Brown was not ready for the attention when you met him. While a great competitor, i don’t know if he reallly likes to be the center of attention, even with something he truly excels at: hockey. That’s my opinion, though, so it’s valueless. You and J in particular have made me more positive on this team and eager to see the young guys. I still, however, harbor major concerns and maybe my ‘kid gloves’ are just too big.

    cheers

  • JDM

    I can dig the metaphor. If anything maybe we can agree that neither scenario is a guarantee and that ultimately its up to the individual. Maybe its unfair to expect or doubt too much.

    I don’t think its a given that inexperience is enough to induce ‘shellshock’ as it were. I think such syndromes are more likely in overthinkers and big egos. With the right attitude I think a young player can on his own pull himself together. Vet leadership helps for sure, and we no doubt could use one more vet on defense. I think my main contention is that there is more character on this team than some give credit for, much of it unproven, but as wavesinair mentioned about looking into a persons eyes and seeing what kind of person they are, I get a good feeling from our young players. I don’t see too many wide-eyed fish out of water types. Especially in Doughty I see a level of character and calmness that will allow him to transition very smoothly all on his own into the NHL.

    As usual though, all just speculation.

  • cristobal

    I think we would do well to look into st. louis during and after their sell off of a couple years ago. I don’t really know much about Quenville as I’m way outside looking in, but perhaps he’s better with young guys than older. There were games between the young blues team and LA when I thought they were more aggressive and more prepared for the match. It would be great to have the luxury of knowing how Quenville would have worked as coach. I tend to rate him well, but that’s, again, just an uninformed opinion.

  • JDM

    St. Louis is a good comparison in some ways. I’d think losing Tkakuck (could never spell that name) hurt the Blues in the leadership dept more than Cammy will hurt us.

    Their aggressive play is a testament to good coaching. Sadly… they still really stink, so hopefully we aren’t too much like them.

  • cristobal

    JDM – they’re rebuilding and have the better “Johnson” by most accounts.

  • JDM

    Erik Johnson does seem to have a bit of an edge over JJ. I still like our depth more, though the Blues have some great prospects. I think our goalie potential is far better, I’m fine with Doughty, Hickey and JJ even though they have E Johsnon and Pietrangelo. I also prefer Kopitar way over Brad Boyes.

    Also, I should retract that Tkachuk statement, I had it in my head that he was gone for more just the end of a season.

  • cristobal

    JDM – I agree that I like the Kings talent better, was just saying that we are in a similar boat (rebuilding) and that it can take longer than we want. This also goes back to my problems with Lombardi in that I believe the team already had a core to build around before he started to really strip it down. We’ll see, though.

    Getting back to the youth thing, could you have imagined standing up to a 35 year old man when you were 18? I think we forget how this gets down to men vs. boys in some sense. Its like jr. high aged pop-warner football against the varsity high school team. if surrender occurs, confidence vanishes.

  • JDM

    Well, personally, ever since I was 15 I have had no issues in any walk of life standing up to a person of any age. I really think age is in large part all in our heads and our own interpration and importance we place on it. I know it’s not professional sports, but I’ve had several jobs in intimidating environments with people twice my age, or even younger but much more successful than me (if anything the latter is much more scary to me). Then again I spent a lot of my youth with adults and not people my own age. I really think it comes down to the individual. This is why Voinov, who I’m not saying is ready, has an advantage. He’s been playing with men for the last few years, so that aspect of the NHL shouldn’t faze a guy like him as much. Maturity-wise I bet he’s ready, but he needs to spend a season or two adjusting to North American hockey. And there’s the key word, maturity. 18 year olds can be very mature, and top athletetic prospects tend to be when they’ve had pressure to succeed on them for years and years.

    Why is that a 16 year old can go into the Olympics and beat people twice their age? I know we are talking totally different activities/sports here, but I’m just trying to drown out this notion that age itself is working against the Kings. If anything, I think the plethora of youth will feed off each other, as opposed to a 20 year stepping onto a team that is mostly 26 or 27 and up. I would think that in such a case a player could just as easily feel very small and intimidated. At least with all the youth together, they can rally around the fact that they are all young guns.

  • cristobal

    This is why Voinov, who I’m not saying is ready, has an advantage. He’s been playing with men for the last few years, so that aspect of the NHL shouldn’t faze a guy like him as much. Maturity-wise I bet he’s ready, but he needs to spend a season or two adjusting to North American hockey. And there’s the key word, maturity. 18 year olds can be very mature, and top athletetic prospects tend to be when they’ve had pressure to succeed on them for years and years.

    JDM – you could very well substitute Tukonen for Voinov and see that everyone would crucify you. The comparison is striking.
    I respect your position on maturity but wonder whether you’ve been in a position of being injured, maimed, or beaten until you surrender…that’s what happens in the NHL. As far as the olympics, i think that usually, the youth is matched against youth. Not that youth never competes against aged veterans, but there are few sports that match hockey in terms of violence, speed, and skill. Youth is important because the body is capable, but age provides perspective, experience, and insight. Old players retire because the body can no longer perform as the mind tells them to.

  • JDM

    Dare I go there… yes I dare.

    Tukonen would only be a fair comparison at the time of his draft. If Voinov were to not show signs of being able to translate his game and style of play to North American hockey in the next several years, then a comparison to Tukonen in his current incarnation would be fair.

    Beaten till I surrender… mentally yes, minus the surrendering, but no, not physically. As lame as it is, golf is the only sport (game) I have rigorously played and practice constistently in life. I do like the words you chose though, maimed and such. Your points are valid, but I just can’t bring myself to think it is nearly all-pervasive. I think this is one issue where the middle is the only correct place to be. Depends on the player, his skill, his mentality, his experience, etc. and to generalize either way that ‘youth is not important,’ as I kind of have been and ‘youth is a detriment’ is false.

    And those two words, speed and violence, you used to describe hockey is why its the only sport I really follow. I love talent, but when mixed with those other two its just a perfect storm of a sport.

  • cristobal

    JDM – I agree, i only meant at the time of the draft. Specifically, this is why i have a hard time getting worked up about next season and sporting any HOPE for young prospects. It just makes you feel burned and disgusted a couple of years later when you see the cycle begin again. Its funny, but “The Tuk” is a perfect example. I was really upset that he was given up on. I still hoped he could fit in to the team and be a part of the future. But I am attacked on all sides because these people believe what they’re told without analyzing the situation themselves. That is my opinion. But its funny to see people support prospects blindly, but turn against a guy like Cammalleri because the Manager is unable to create a peaceful situation. I went back and read the interview with Cammalleri from earlier in the year, and I can’t believe that the guy was being questioned the way he was by the fans when he never failed to give the team everything when on the ice.

    In terms of being young and leading, i agree that i am gaining confidence when considering what greene, stoll, and gauthier could possibly bring to the team. Just wary of feeling like i was fooled again and of promising young players being lost in the process.

    cheers

  • yesitscal

    JDM, thanks for your thoughts on the Forum’s acoustics. They must have improved them from years ago because they used to be awful.

    I wouldn’t worry about O’Sullivan. The fact that there’s no news, to my mind, is good news because it doesn’t do either side well to bargain through the media. It got Camalleri traded, after all, because he wanted crazy money.

    The time to panic will be when training camp is here and O’Sullivan isn’t, but so far we haven’t heard anything from him demanding to be traded because he feels the Kings are lowballing him. How much is a player with one good season behind him worth???

  • JDM

    Mike Green is a very young defenseman and based mostly off last season got over $5 mill per for 4 or 5 years.

    My guess, Sully’s deal will be something like $2.6 mill this year, 2.8 next, 3.0 the next and 3.4, taking him into UFA years.

    Hey 299,….. whooose it gonna be?

  • cristobal

    yesitscal – “Really, I think that some people should spend less time blogging and more time looking for a job so that people like you and me don’t have to support them with our taxpayer dollars.”

    That absolutely takes the cake. The thought that you are paying for me and that I’m living off your tax dollars is precious. Talk about insulting other commentors and seeking attention with inciteful comments (nice word you made up btw). yesitscal, you just cannot help yourself, can you? I also love how you get so upset by someone you don’t even know because of their opinions about a hockey team and stride the blast of our wrecked economy and lack of moral fiber. I bet you throw around some mean racial epithets as well.

    cheers

  • JDM

    well that was a depressing 300th post…

  • cristobal

    JDM – Let’s make 400 a good one.

  • JDM

    with any luck, the Kings news will start flooding in and push this story into the archives before we get a chance!

  • yesitscal

    I thought O’Sullivan was looking for a short-term contract, or was that the Kings who wanted a shorter term at more money, or is that just people on her speculating? I think the problem with locking people into long-term contracts is that the other players will be negotiating off that when their time comes. Kopitar will ask for more, which I think he rightfully deserves, and then I hope the Kings lock Frolov up, too, but if the young guys now, Johnson, Boyle, Tewbert, Bernier, etc., are all as good as touted, you can’t be extending everybody for five, six, seven years because they had a better year than the next guy. Also, I still believe that the cap has to come down someday, and when it does there will be other teams who have their nose right up against the ceiling who are going to be hving to dump some very good players who the Kings could be interested in at that time.

    I do think that you’re comparing apples and oranges, though, since Green and O’Sullivan play two different positions. The Caps are going to have a problem pretty soon if Semin wants big money because then I think they’ll have three players eating up a very large chunk of their cap space.

  • cristobal

    JDM – i apologize for bringing you down. Perhaps again i need to think about being responsive to some people and their tendency to attack me rather than my opinions.

    I’d much rather address the kings, the organization, and hockey in general for the most part. But some people really don’t like my opinion, and I really do. Also, sometimes I just can’t help but enjoy the opportunity to exchange unpleasantries with the likes of yesitscal. Just look at it as a healthy form of expression, or a hockey fight. You don’t go to the game and get depressed if Ivanans pummells somebody, right?

    Let’s move on now….

  • JDM

    ha… very true. Trust me I understand the desire for verbal sparring. I think I’m just waiting for a meaty response from wavesinair, quisp or J, etc. where’d ya’ll go? Keep the thread rockin boys, or is the dream over…

    Like I said, I want to posting on stories like “Stoll signed for 4 years,” or “Sully locked up until UFA years,” or the best yet to come, “Training camp opens!”

  • JDM

    yestical –

    you know if you sign up your comments will get posted instantly.

    As far as O’Sullivan is concerned, NOTHING has been officially or even speculatively from a legitimate rumor source about what the hold up us. The only official word has been, “things progress as normal.” I don’t think anyone knows which side wants the short term or long term deal. I think a 3 or 4 year deal would be ideal, would you want a 2 year?

    I agree that the cap will come down some day, and I think DL is aware and worried of that too when it comes to locking up young players… then again, just assumptions. However, I wouldn’t want the job of having to please and pay for that much talent in a cap system if they all deserve it. I doubt anyone on this team ever makes more than $6.5-7 million. $7 is the highest I could see Kopitar getting, and even that would only be on an increasing scale and didn’t pay that for a few more years, or as a 3rd contract near his UFA years if he signs a 2 or 3 year deal this season. Tuebert, Doughty and the other guys won’t be a problem for 3 more years, and even then probably will only command ~3-4 mill tops (speculating). Boyle is RFA next year too, as is Purcell, but after only a year they shouldn’t get more than $3. Also, Calder is off the books, as is armstrong, and by the time we need to pay for Doughty and Tuebert, etc Handsuz’s 4 million will be too, as will Preissings 2.75. If Greene is good, he gets a slight raise, maybe up to 2.5 tops.

    I really hope Frolov signs another long term contract, but we will command 5 or 6 on the open market so I can’t see us getting away with less than 5.5 for him.

    Ultimately I think the Kings are fine in regards to the cap, and think it is wholly acheivable to lock up and pay for this core for 5-6 years, at which point some turnover of prospects is inevitable. The problem will be if AEG is willing to spend to and over $50 in the not too distant future.

  • yesitscal

    I do think that once the Kings start winning and winning regularly that AEG will loosen the pursestrings on the budget, provided the cap hasn’t fallen by then. Kings should do all they can to re-sign Frolov. He’s been here, what, five years and has certainly won the respect of the fans and his peers. He’s good on the puck, but I wish he’d shoot more often, and not the wrap-arounds he loves so much.

    Guys are always going to be coming off the books, but teams are going to have to stagger term effectively or else, like the Ducks will after this season, they could see multiple players whose contracts are up at once.

    I tried registering, but never did get the confirmation E-mail, and it hasn’t shown up in my junk mail folder. Don’t want to keep trying to register multiple times, so I’m just letting it be for now. In any case, this blog really isn’t life or death for me, like it seems to be with others I see here. I thought it would be entertaining when I first found it, which it is, but some of the posts just get you wondering sometimes. People can’t let things drop and always have to have the last word, and nobody is more right than some of them, too.

  • yesitscal

    About O’Sullivan… Maybe a two-year contract for him would be appropriate if you’re the Kings. Show us your stuff and show us you’re not a flash in the pan, and you could be handsomely rewarded after that. The problem is, however, if O’Sullivan’s thinking that in two years the cap could be lower, Kopitar and Frolove could be making more, and then there’s the problem of coming off your contract in the same year as Doughty and after, supposedly, the people above him get the raises that they’re deserving of. Also, in a couple more years, the Kings may be in the position where they can go after a deadline trade or a UFA to shore up a hole. If O’Sullivan is confident of his skills and durability, though, I don’t see why he would think that this wouldn’t be an unreasonable gamble. Four years just seems to me to be too long a term to reward a kid for one good season.

  • JDM

    I agree with you on most of those points yestical. I can see the logic in not wanting to lock Sully up long term, but I still hope to see him signed for atleast 3 years. My reasoning is to get him under contract for long enough for the team to show real improvement. We hope to see it next season if not this season, but I think 3 years is more likely to see a real playoff push or run. I guess the benefit is that even on a two-year deal he’d be RFA status still at the end of it. Except then he’d be arbitration eligible.

    Didn’t mean to suggest you were dumb or anything not to register. I remember having read someone asking why their posts took so long to show up, forgot who, so in case it was you thought I’d point it out.

    I’m glad the Ducks are gonna be in a tight spot next summer. ;) . But that is a valid concern certainly.

    You’ll be glad Frolov does those wrap arounds when he starts hitting them. I figure its only a matter of time. By all means he should score 40 goals a year. So skilled, our second line will take a huge beating if we lost Frolov. No one in the system who really plays like he does. As Datsyuk proved, danglers are invaluable.

  • yesitscal

    JDM, wouldn’t it be great if somewhere down the line someone like O’Sullivan would be expendible because there’s even better talent in the pipeline? No knock on O, but imagine what it would be like to have that luxury!

    That wasn’t my post about the length of time it took for posts to show up, but I had wondered about that myself and figured that they were waiting to be approved. It’s okay if mine take a while to get on. People can say what they have to when it finally makes it. Still wondering why I’m not getting those confirmation E-mails, though! Junk mail folder is empty, which I suppose is a good thing.

    I don’t hate the Ducks. I hated them while they were under the disney brand, but Samueli has brought credibility to the franchise, even if he’s in a little do-do himself right now. Nothing that hasn’t happened before and, sadly, nothing that won’t happen again…

  • cristobal

    JDM – Hey, i just wanted to say I appreciate the times you supported me against the attacks and that I hope I haven’t ruined the site for you. I probably shouldn’t respond to many of the posts, as I realize most people are fookin’ ignorant, but I like to call them out. Anyway, I hope I haven’t turned you off, or J or quisp, you guys are all quality, and I can differentiate between a person with a brain, and an uneducated yokel that just gets excited when they feel they insulted someone.

    cheers guys

  • JDM

    No worries here…

    just waiting for the rest of the Murray interview!

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