Cammalleri meets Calgary

Michael Cammalleri, traded from the Kings to Calgary in June, had an introductory press conference in Calgary yesterday. Here’s what Cammalleri had to say, in the Calgary Sun, about his time with the Kings.

“We really didn’t get to that point in L.A. where we really had a clear identity as a team, where we were really establishing something, where we really got to compete at that (top) level, where we really got to figure out where we were as a team as an identity. I don’t know if we got married to that concept.”

Here’s the full story…

Red and white delight

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  • Anonymous

    “No longer would he just be expected to be a point producer on a bottom-feeding team from a sun city.

    No longer would he ply his trade before a small fan base who cheers heartily but doesn’t really invest their heart in the team.

    No longer is simply OK going to be good enough.

    Not now that he’s part of the Calgary Flames. ”

    F you too, Randy Sportak! =P

  • anthony

    Ahh shut the _____ up.
    Who cares what this guy says.
    That puck hog wore out his welcome when he felt some pressure from the lack of scoring. So he started to shoot everything. Completely ignoring his linemates.
    I’m never gonna miss his one legged shot.
    He’ll not get away with half the things in Calgary that he got away with in L.A. Not with Iron Mike Keenan running the show.
    I expect him to be out of Calgary next season (when he’s a free agent). Or maybe he’ll be driven out.
    I’d rather have Colton Tuebery any day.
    Good job Deano.

    Too bad he won’t be in Vegas during the Frozen Fury.

    Hey guys, I have a joke for you.
    Which Las Vegas Hotel does Lord Cammi Stay in.
    THE FLAMINGO.
    Get It.

  • ReggieMoto

    Really?

  • Tim

    Kill Jack Kill!

  • Anonymous

    Cammy’s going to Calgary just means that there’s another cow chip to be cleanedup at the Calgary Stampede…

  • cristobal

    Injuries, contract disputes, one-legged goal scoring (Anthony) and just 7 points fewer than Patrick O’Sullivan. What a mess Lombardi took over when he came to the Kings. No prospects and no talent. Only Cammalleri, Visnovsky, Brown, Frolov and Cammalleri (plus Boyle in the wings). We could well see Blake vs. Cammalleri in the Western Conference Finals. Or maybe Blake vs. Tukonen. HA HA. I would love it.

  • Chris

    Oh get over yourself Cammi. You weren’t a team player, you wanted WAY too much money and you didn’t put the effort out there. SEE YA!

  • JDM

    It’s a lot easier for the Flames to point out that they are better than the Kings than it is to remind their fans that their team is incapable of getting past the second round in the same years the Kings have been “bottom-feeding”. As far as I’m concerned the Flames are no better than the 00-01 Kings, and won’t be getting past that second round again this year with that sluggish large defense of theirs.

    The underlying fear in the writing of the article appears to be that even Calgary knows Cammalleri could care less where he plays. Better make him happy or he’ll be gone by the trade deadline. I hope Johnson knocks him unconcious.

    I had no real qualm with Cammy until this. What a classless article.

  • Eric K

    ask Randy Sportak if he’s actually ever been to a Kings game, or if he’s seen this board. i promise that he’ll find our hearts pretty invested in this team. what a bunch of trash.

    and as for Cammy… we might not have the team “established” yet, but i can’t wait to face him when we do.

  • prlandra

    There is a link on the story to the writer’s email. Maybe we should, appropriately and professionally, all take the time to write to him and let him understand how wrong he is about this “small fan base that doesn’t put their heart into their team.”

  • Anonymous

    “No longer would he ply his trade before a small fan base who cheers heartily but doesn’t really invest their heart in the team.”

    Maybe he should have asked Cammalleri about our fanbase and get his opinion. I think it would differ from his.

  • KingFan4ever

    I just want to know what Keenan will do to One-Knee Slapper when he starts bogarding that puck. Plus he’s all giddy playing in Canada again… The Flames fans are brutal and won’t cut him any slack for his one-dimensional play.

  • voice of reason

    Can somebody point out to me a single bad thing Cammy says about the Kings in this article? Would any one of you argue with the notion that the Kings never got to that point of being a team with a winning identity who could go toe-to-toe with elite squads?

    The author of the piece is a jerk, but Cammy doesn’t say, nor has he ever said anything, to warrant the hatred that is constantly thrown his way on this blog.

  • 28 KINGS

    I can totally picture the Flames fans yelling at him to get off his knees and shoot the puck like a man.

  • Anonymous

    The truth really hurts as seen by all of these comments. He was pretty much spot-on in my book. We can call him a dick all day. But I can only imagine what our current players are saying about the current state of this club. We’re a complete cluster-***k. They keep preaching “Core” and “Rebuild” but the rewind will never stop and they’ll never ever build around their “Core”. Our “Core” will change yearly.
    We just need to face the facts that we’re the NHL’s farm club and a perfect building block to our stars futures…..somewhere else that is.

    Cammi is arrogant and the money he asked for was ridiculous, but I still think we could have got a lot more for him in a deal. Same goes for Lubo!

  • Jet

    Hey voice,

    The Kings invested a great deal of time and effort in Cammi by bringing him along slowly. I believe we as fans in addition to Kings management expected Cammi to show some loyalty to the organization that baby sat him after he insisted on coming out of college early. Yes, we even thought that he would become a leader and help the team find an identity. But, Cammi took the selfish route once again. He knew that he would not command a first line contract if he played with the Kings again this year. So he reverted to his “me first” attitude and cried until there was little choice but move him out. Keenan will not tolerate any of his whining crap, so it will be extremely interesting to see if he can hold it together until the end of the season to capture his “golden contract”. Although fragile, I think he will make it, but I would hate to be the GM to sign him to the big deal. Once he has the money, the real Cammi will return.
    There was a kid like Cammi on every team. But, it was the kid we all hated to play with.

  • cristobal

    Jet – Cammalleri has performed consistently at every level he’s ever played. He’s a small guy and that leads to injuries, but to say he’s ruined the relationship with the Kings is buying the AEG propaganda. He played last season and earned less than Handzus, Nagy, Blake, and Visnovsky, while just barely out earning Cloutier. If you don’t think players want to earn their money while they can, you’re mistaken. One bad knee injury and a career can be over.
    Finally, Cammalleri is not the one who was hand-held or brought-along by the Kings. If anything, he gave them more than most and played through the King’s lack of dedication to winning. Minimum 30 goals this season. Count on it.

  • voice of reason

    Jet–perhaps you have some evidence to back up your case? Like a link to an article in which Cammy is whining or crying or prominently displaying this “me first” attitude you speak of?

    Show me one NHL player who doesn’t want to make as much money as possible while knowing his career (and earning power) could end at any moment.

  • itstopshere!

    MC hits the nail on the head re: the Kings, not that he wasn’t at least a small part of the problem. And not that i’m calling him small…;)

    Any Pro athlete wants to be in a situation were they can have personal and team success and get paid well for doing so, it’s just a matter of how much priority they put on each those 3 things, and in what order.

  • Jet

    cristobal – Cammi has scored consistently at every level, but I would challenge your inference that he has preformed consistently at any level. He has always been a score first player. He showed little ability or even willingness to play any defense until last year. In 06-07, I saw him back check 4 times the entire season.

    Last season he was 25, next season he will earn more than all of your examples. I do not mind a player holding out for a big payday, but when you alter your play and attitude to pick up a couple extra million to the determent to the team, then I do not agree with the player.

    Finally, the Kings have put up with his crap since he threatened to do a Blake Wheeler on Dave Taylor. He has pretty much dictated his responsibilities ever since.

    Listen to his words since joining Calgary. I would love to play with Iginla, but if they want me to center a line, I can do that. He knows that he can not handle the center position from a defensive prospective. And would he really try, as his point production would drop.
    I guess I just expect a player to care as much about his team as he does about himself.

  • petey

    I skipped the interview and just went straight to the Sunshine Girl of the day.

  • cristobal

    petey – here, here. best move of the offseason.

  • cristobal

    Jet – bronze, silver, and gold with Canada. tournament top forward award. the flames shipped out tanguay with him coming in. sounds like the flames have big hopes for him and he has delivered in the past. we’re getting excited about prospects that have zero nhl goals while he gets to go play with iginla, phaneuf, langkow, regehr, and kiprusoff. i’d be excited if i were him too. i have yet to hear cammalleri or blake bash the kings or the LA fans, less than i can say for the kings organization or its fans.

  • voice of reason

    Jet–all I’m seeing from you is anecdotal evidence (I mean, I guess it’s common knowledge Cammy only back checked four times last year) tailored to suit your argument.

    Clearly the Kings and Cammy at this point in his career are not a good fit. There’s nothing wrong with that, it happens all the time. My guess is you people wouldn’t be so bent out of shape if Cammy didn’t happen to put pucks in the net as frequently as he does.

    As for him altering his play and attitude? HAHA! Just try and prove that one.

    I’m not a Cammy or a DL apologist, I just try to be the calm and sane voice on this board as we are few and far between.

  • DellaNooch

    I think it was pretty clear last summer that Cammi and his agent where out of touch with market value and that Cammi would test the free agent market next summer, if we didn’t lock him up to an extension by early this summer. Unfortunately he had many injury problems this season thus killing this past season and he would not have earned a very good contract extension. Its a contract year for him, he’s got Iginla passing him the puck, he’ll put up some good points this year, but the Kings had to trade him, he was a goner at season’s end and will probably get 6 million a year from one of the big spenders

    Cristo – I agree with you that Cammi has a good year…but your contract comparsions need to stop, they don’t prove anything, only highlight the fact that you slant your arguments to make DL look bad

    The economics of entry level contracts, second contacts and unrestricted free agent contracts differ greatly…one could argue the Kings were getting ripped off by Cammi because he made more money than Ovechin and Malkin, but then they were finishing out their entry level contracts!

    As for the writer, typical Canadian. I go to Sportsnet.ca and TSN.ca for news because it clowns on ESPN.com, if you read the comments, Canadians are pissed about the direction of the NHL going to more US cities and take every opportunity to put us down. Espcially Leaf fans, who thought the Kopitar to Chicago rumor was true, weeks after it came out in the news. The interesting thing is, I bet the Kings attendance from last year was not too far behind Calgary…

    Give us a couple years, we’ll be lighting up the Flamers like it was the Olympic closing ceremony.

  • cristobal

    dellanooch – while i agree that cammalleri might have tested free agency, its hardly a unique situation. players are free to test their value and tend to go that route particularly after an arbitration year. i don’t necessarily buy the theories about entry, second contract, and veteran contracts. its only the 3rd season under the cap that we’re on the verge of, and we owe that to kings ownership in large part. the new era is as yet undefined and we are supposed to be witnessing the changes first-hand, where old, aging money-earners are ignored to sign the up and coming young talent. cammalleri fits the bill and its only spin by management that makes it seem otherwise. they’re gonna face this problem with more and more players if they turn out to be quality players. there’s no getting around it, they’re playing us.

    they could easily silence the old-guard critics by holding on to their young guys and winning, but they seem to be happy to let us root for new players every year as long as we’ll keep going.

  • Jet

    voice-
    I do not have the inclination to do homework at this point in my life, but can I ask you review articles from the following period of times.
    April 02 – Cammi threatens to leave after his senior year as a free agent if the Kings do not sign him. Taylor asks him to stay at M for one more year and work on his D. Cammi says “I have already done everything I can in college”.
    Sept02 – Cammi is sent down. He goes to the media to say Dave Taylor lied to him. Cammi said that Taylor told him he would play on the top line with Allison. Taylor may not be the best GM, but I never heard of another question his integrity.
    Oct02 – Cammi has his college coach go to the media to say that it is a travesty the Kings could send him down. There are more cases, but this should give you a start.

    I agree that there is no longer a fit. The Kings are going to move towards a less “entertaining” style to a more defensive style to stay competitive. This means there will be less scoring and likely the reason Cammi was traded prior to the start of the season. Playing a two way game is very hard work and only players who by in to “a team first” approach can handle it.

    Regarding his attitude, I obviously can not say with certainty. But, I can watch the games and read the post game stats. One I would like to point out is PK time. How many games last year did a player with lesser skating ability have more PK time than Cammi? We would all like to save our legs for the O-zone, but some sacrifice for the good of the team.

    I do appreciate your sense of fairness. And with respect to you, I will say that I do like Cammi for overcoming his size limitations, for overcoming being Jewish in hockey. I would like to think bigotry is dead in hockey, but that would be sightless with so few players in the league. In addition, I appreciate him trying to stick up for Kopi. But, it was not wise given the situation and the injury really hurt the team.

    Calgary fans will stroke his ego, Keenan will not. I still believe Cammi will score 35 goals, but I also believe the Flames GA will rise and they will fail in the second round.

    The truth on Cammi’s character will become clear next year, once he has a big contract in hand. Hopefully, he matures.

  • Quisp

    Cristobal –

    re “there’s no getting around it, they’re playing us”:

    It’s not like it’s quantum physics and we have to take their word for it. Do the math yourself. If you pay Cammellari what he will command as a UFA, you have to pay more to Kopitar, Frolov, POS, and you suddenly have four forwards making 6-8MM/year and you have to start trading. To say “they’re playing us” is just insulting to “us.” I, for one, can add.

    Trading Cammy was necessary in order to hold onto the young guys.

    By the way, at some point you commented (maybe in this thread) “C will score thirty this year, count on it.” He’d better. That’s the minimum he ought to be scoring.

    Last, you say “they seem to be happy to let us root for new players every year…” … but isn’t the team basically the same team as last year, but with the addition of the “young guys” you want them to hold onto, and the subtraction of old guys who don’t fit the plan?

    Oh, right. This just comes down to the fact that you would have held onto Lubo, Blake and Cammy. Well, I am glad they are gone. And MY reasoning (no kool-aid involved) is that Lubo is redundant after this year (see Hickey, Johnson, Doughty); Blake is retired after this year; and Cammy … see above.

    Your comment about “new players” every year had me going back to previous year’s rosters to see which “kids” cracked the line up. I see now that you were referring as much to the UFAs of last season, but what I saw when I poked around was kind of interesting.

    Two seasons ago: Kopitar, Brown, Frolov.
    Last year: Johnson, Harrold.
    This year: Boyle, Purcell, Moulson, Doughty.
    Next year (?): Teubert, Bernier, Hickey, Simmonds, Moller.

    That’s what a rebuild SHOULD look like. That’s not friggin’ koolaid.

    p.s. I love the calculated risk that in two/three years NO ONE will complain that we have Teubert and we don’t have Cammy.

  • Quisp

    Correction:

    Three years ago: Frolov, Brown, Cammy, Gleason
    Two years ago: Kopitar
    Last year: Johnson, Harrold
    This year: Boyle, Purcell, Moulson, Doughty
    Next year: Teubert, Bernier, Hickey, Simmonds, Moller.

    And yes, I realize that this year and next year and not locks and some of those players will not be ready etc…

  • Quisp

    I don’t know what my problem is. Not enough caffeine maybe.

    2002-03: Frolov, (Cammy)
    2003-04: (Gleason), Brown
    2004-05: [strike]
    2005-06: (Parros), Guiliano
    2006-07: Kopitar, O’Sullivan
    2007-08: Johnson, Moulson, Harrold
    2008-09: Boyle, Purcell, Doughty
    2009-10: Bernier, Teubert, Hickey, Simmonds, Moller

  • Anonymous

    Kings fans are the most positive, patient group of fans ever. My patience is wearing out. I know our future looks bright but prospects are no guarantees. Kings fans were so supportive of DT’s rebuild plan, now so supportive of DL’s rebuild plan. What have we ever built in the first place? The only thing we ever built was around the greatest hockey player of all time and we still couldn’t bring the Cup home.

    I agree Cammy was a money grubbin troll, but I cannot disagree with what he points out. We have not had a clear identity. We are still building upon that. We have not competed at a top level. You cannot dispute that.

  • cristobal

    Quisp – I have an article on the Kings on my new blog, I wish you’d comment there. If for no other reason than people tend to freak on me for “hijacking” the thread.

    http://worldhockeydaily.wordpress.com/

    Quisp, I know you like to stick with the team and jettison what you believe to be dead weight, but that’s not how I see it. I see a team going cheap, and happy to exist as long as there’s profit. These are some of the horrible trends in the NHL. I also have an article on my “5 ways i’d change the NHL.” I think that non-competitive teams are a marketing ploy. The Kings are exactly that. The reason Cammalleri, Visnovski, and Blake are gone is because they were the highest earner that other teams would take. The reason handzus and calder are still here is that they showed last season that they weren’t worth a lick. Do you realize that Kyle Calder was paid almost 3 times what Kirk Maltby was paid last season, and will be again this season? Do you realize that Handzus made almost 5 times as much as Maltby AND Drake? Lombardi does not have a clue.

    Cammalleri was not traded for Teubert in 2 years, he AND Norstrom were the cost of that pick. In my opinion, that’s way too expensive. I don’t rate players who haven’t proven that they can play in this league. I don’t know wether Teubert will be a top 2 defenseman. Nor do I have any proof that Bernier, Hickey, and Lewis will be top players. I think the odds are against it. In my opinion, drafting a goalie that high (no. 4) is foolish. Goalies can always be acquired. The ones that are continuous with one team, generally don’t win in the end. Look at Turco in Dallas, Luongo didn’t win in Florida, Dipietro will likeley never get there with the Isles, and Fleury is the best bet, but I think Pittsburgh will struggle this year.

    All this team knows how to do is fail, and until they make me eat my words, i’ll continue to doubt management. I don’t know how people think they’re amass more than 50 points next season. It just would be a shock.

    Listen, 07-08 was the debut of Johnson and O’sullivan. They combined for a grand total of 24 goals. Meanwhile, Johnson was a part of the worst defense in years. Do you reallly think a bunch of rookies and big-men are going to have a better defensive year than Preissing, Stuart, Modry, Blake, Visnovsky, and Johnson? They won’t, but if a miracle should happen, it would just be further proof of how horrible a decision it was to hire Crawford. The Kings “loser” aura even turned a serviceable regular season tender (cloutier) into a pile of excrement. Until I see some real positives from DL, I will doubt him. He has too many marks in the ‘negative’ column right now. I believe that when the season starts, fans are going to be horrified. I’ve said it over and over again, they didn’t build the NHL for 80 or 90 years to be a developmental league. Plus, he already had an incredible nucleus when he came in, thanks to Taylor. He’s traded away a 31 year old defenseman who could be producing in this league for another 5 or 6 years, and a 26 year old goal-scorer. He couldn’t even resign Stuart and HE DRAFTED THE GUY. Where’s the loyalty? They don’t want to come back here.

  • JDM

    cristobal –

    I wasn’t planning to respond because while I disagree with almost everything you say in that post on one level or another, ultimately they are just opinions and I can’t say anything to convince you otherwise. You said it yourself, until DL shows some results, which I think he will, there’s no changing your mind and that’s fine. And then I read the last part, “They don’t want to come back here.”

    That’s not really true except in Cammy’s case. First, Stuart, would anyone not sign a contract with the Stanley Cup winner? Even if they had a similar offer from another good team, ALL things being equal a player will go for the cup team. That has nothing to do with how bad we are or how bad or good DL is. If anything, it was widely reported that the Kings were the only other team Stuart was considering signing with, which if anything shows loyatly when he even considers the last place team after having just won a cup. If Detroit had only offered him 1.5 or 2 million dollars, and DL had offered him 3.5, I’d bet he’d be a King again, but in the end Holland ponied up for Stuart. More power to him.

    Lubo – you can question DL’s loyalty to Lubo, but Lubo’s was always there for the Kings. I don’t think that one needs explaining.

    Blake wanted to play here, DL didn’t want him to play here. Oh well. Blake was more loyal to DL than he was to Taylor.

    Cammy is the only player on that list who would probably not have shown loyalty or concern for the Kings in his UFA year. I won’t explain this either since it’s been exacerbated in the previous 30 posts.

    Hell, even if you go back to Nabakov which people always cite as a reason to be cautious of DL’s tactics, he may have held out, it may have gotten a little nasty… but where does Nabakov play again? Oh yeah, he’s still with the Sharks. Looks like that hold-out reeeaaaaaaally did a lot of harm.

    And even though the Kings have been in recent years seemingly a developmental TEAM for the rest of the league… what does it even mean to say “they didn’t build the NHL for 80 or 90 years to be a developmental LEAGUE.”?

    As for Taylor’s incredible nucleus… that nucleus sure didn’t do squat for us in DT’s last several seasons, even playing for the only other coach besides Melrose to take us past the first round of the playoffs since god knows when.

    My apologies for coming off a little abrasive… I’ve been grumpy in general.

  • cristobal

    Sorry you’re grump JDM.

    I don’t want to agitate you, but you have to consider the things he’s done if you want to talk about it. He has only 2 half plusses in the positives column, and tons of minuses in the negatives column. I don’t know much of anything about Nabakov’s hold out, nor do i know why dL was fired from san jose. some want to credit DL for the Thornton trade, but i find that ridiculous. All i know is that he was fired.

    taylor was fired, too, but look at what was just coming along when they fired him. I find it interesting that there is not much Loyalty to Taylor, who really set this team up with his drafts, and this blind acceptance of Lombardi. Do you realize that its ok to criticize your club? They do it in toronto, montreal, and edmonton too. Hell, they even do it in Detroit some.

    Lombardi has managed to strip this team bare. He wants high draft picks, there’s no other reason I can imagine. This ridiculous (to me) hope for the season and watching these kids grow is just PR. This brings me to my developmental league comment.

    This is the NHL. Have you ever seen Tim Hunter’s face? or Bobby Clarke’s? Its F-ing war out there and throwing kids into battle just produces casualties. If Lombardi thinks this team can really compete, he’s higher than Marley, cuz it ain’t gonna happen. Like I said, 50 points if its a good year. Quebec set the record low with 31 points with a team that had Sakic, Sundin, Leschyshin, and Stastny. I wouldn’t be TOO surprised if the Kings challenge that low this year. Is that what Kings fans want? You want to see all these “prospects” get hammered? More than half of them are underweight, regardless of how good they might be.
    Finally, those that pay to go see, are paying for quality. How is it ok to continue to fleece people when management isn’t even attempting to compete? How can they actually charge 10 buck for a freekin budweiser?

    I’m so damn sick of AEG, its not funny anymore. They absolutely suck the “sport” out of “sports-entertainment.” I’d rather some poor sod who could barely afford the team were the owner. At least then I wouldn’t think that a guy like Phillipe Boucher was lost just when he was coming into his own because some billionaire’s Entertainment company didn’t value him at about 2.5 million.

    I’ll say it again. Why doesn’t Big Phil or Lieweke get out there and tell Cammalleri how much he deserves. As a matter of fact, how does Lombardi know, was he good enough to even play in the NHL?

    If you think you’re pissed now, JDM, just wait for the season.

  • cristobal

    btw – JDM, you posted on the “on commenting” article that you hoped you hadn’t done anything wrong and would exhibit any poor behaviour. I didn’t say it then, but you are the most un-guilty of all the commenters. Your the Lady Byng winner of Inside the Kings, because you’re a true gentleman. I hope you never think I’m giving you a hard time. I get mad about the team, that’s it. The rest is all fun. Ranting on here is fun as long as i don’t piss off the host. Anyway, JDM, you can bark at me all you want. I’ll know you’re barking because you care about the team. and that’s cool.

  • JDM

    Thanks for the compliments Cristo.

    I definately realize that it is OK and even of the upmost importance to criticize one’s team. In fact I’ve been criticizing the Kings tirelessly since Jason Allison was brought it. I really disliked the way Taylor handled the team. I love him as a player and as a true King, but not so much as a GM. I don’t criticize too harshly because for the first time since 01-02 I feel like the team is going to constantly improve. Sure, that could just be because there is practically nowhere to go but up, but truly I feel like the Kings are developing a core of like-minded players. I’ve used that term before because I finally see a variety of players being brought in. In the past I had hopes for individual seasons, and those hopes were frequently dashed, usually by a strong start to the season and a piss poor finish. Finally I’m looking beyond just this season. We were never going to get too far just trying to slap together the most talented team we could each season. I finally have hope for the future which I never had before. You could easily chalk much up this up to faith, perhaps blind faith… after all what other kind of faith is there?

    Since we are talking about DL positives and negatives, I’ll do my best to plot those out, atleast to my thinking.

    Off the top of my head…

    Positives –

    1. Signing Brown to what is perhaps the NHL’s best contract.

    2. Filling specific needs. I could break this up into several positives but I’ll keep it under the one and break it into letters:
    a) We needed goaltending – our goaltending depth has NEVER looked so ripe with possibility. In the past we have pinned hopes on one goalie panning out, now we have several options and 5 potential number one goalies. All won’t pan out, but those odds are better than we’ve ever had.
    b) Our face-offs suck, he went out and got Stoll and Handsuz (I choose to see these for the positives despite Handsuz’ huge contract or losing Vis for Stoll).
    c) We got pushed around last season, now we have a burly defense and more tough guys in the system like Simmonds and Clune.

    3. O’Sullivan trade.

    4. Johnson trade.

    5. Openly acknowledging the lack of winning tradition, something I never remember Taylor specifically referencing. If you like this can be a half positive.

    6. Signing Purcell. He is still unproven, but every single team wanted him and DL convinced a brand new player to start his career on a team that finished 3rd worst in the NHL.

    7. Signing Ersberg.

    8. Giving Robataille a job and keeping him in the organization.

    9. Denis Gauthier – you may not like him or think he is a great player, but he adds some depth and toughness to the defense and we lost two prospects that weren’t going anywhere AND gained an extra pick.

    Negatives -

    1. Hiring Crawford. (firing him kind of washes this out to me, but then again I could add another negative for not firing him sooner =P)

    2. Cloutier. No excuse for that.

    3. Trading Lubo. Though I like the aquisition of Stoll A LOT, and I list that in and of itself as a positive, fact is I think Lubo should have been a King for life.

    4. He loses points purely because the Ducks won a cup while he was GM – though that itself is not his fault.

    5. Finishing worse each season so far than the preceding season.

    6. Trading Avery. Locker room poison or not, the dude brings excitement, passion, grit and determination every time he hits the ice and I loved having him on the team. But again, take away my personal favor for Avery and this quickly becomes another positive.

    TBD -

    1. Trading Cammalleri for a gamble in Tuebert

    2. Drafting Doughty over Bogosian/Pietrangelo/Schenn/Filatov and likewise the rest of his draft picks. Lewis and Hickey being the other key picks so far.

    3. New coaching staff (including the firing of Johnston)

    4. Richardson.

    Nuetral –

    1. Nagy

    2. Calder

    3. Losing Blake for nothing.

    4. Preissing.

    5. Stuart – losing him is washed out by getting some return on a player that cost us nothing.

    I’m sure you’ll disagree with me on the placement of some of these, but many of those positives are either outright positive, or nuetral AT WORST. Aside from the Kings win record under Lombardi, which is a big point to be sure, I can’t really find too many obvious faults besides Crawford and Cloutier, who in my book are ultimately responsible for the Kings crappy record the last two years, DL being responsible for their hiring/signing. So really, those 3 reasons could really be called 2, since to me they are the main reasons for the third (losing record).

    So, what say you? Can you refute my positives or add to the negatives? I’m sure you can ;) .

    And yes, all in fun and good faith.

  • Quisp

    JDM –

    If I may…

    I agree with all your positives, negatives and neutrals, except:

    negative #3 — Lubo. It’s possible Lubo will recover from his bad year. It’s possible our prospects won’t rise to the occasion. Nothing is written in stone. But our defensive prospect pool is strong, and DL is gambling his picks pan out, and I think that’s a fair bet.

    neg #5 — I think the Kings improved their point total last year, didn’t they? I’m not really disagreeing, here. They were bad anyway you slice it.

    neg #6 — Avery. I enjoy him. I’m glad he’s gone. Hopefully Cliche will amount to something. I guess I would move this one over to neutral/TBD.

    TBD – Nagy — Nah, he’s a bust.

    TBD – Blake for nothing. I consider it a positive that DL was willing to move on. Over in San Jose land, everyone is crossing their fingers that Blake will do better there with reduced responsibility. But even they acknowledge he’s old and in decline.

    I guess I would add the positive of getting something for Nordstrom before he retired.

    And I also consider it a huge positive that he didn’t sign a bunch of UFAs to replace last year’s UFAs. But I know this is the same thing that’s pissing off so many folks.

  • JDM

    I think the Kings did improve their point total slightly this past season… unfortunately so did the rest of the cellar teams.

    I thought about adding Norstrom, I kind of consider that one a wash because losing our captain and such a heart filled player like Matty sucked, but you’re right we got something for him.

    I also put Blake and Nagy in nuetral, not TBD. I almost added a positive of bringing Blake back 2 years ago, which I thought was the right thing to do… I guess we could add two more positives then, bringing him back AND letting him go =). Nagy is nuetral, bust but who cares, it was a risk signing, but only for a year. No real harm, no foul.

    I also agree with your last point, I’m glad he didn’t do anything in this years UFA market… I’m disgusted by most all of the signings. For some reason, Vrbata was the only other player I would have wanted other than Orpik (although not for the contract he got). I had this feeling Vrbata would go great with Frolov, but ultimately its no big loss. I think next years UFA pool is much stronger and the year that fits with the plan to be spending some big $$$ on UFA’s.

  • cristobal

    JDM – you make a better case than most, I have to say. I’ll give you my take on some of it:

    positives –

    1 – Brown’s contract. The best in the league? I’m assuming you mean in terms of not overpaying him to maintain the rest of his cap room. I can buy that, but we should have a few years, here, of well below cap room. He should be making top dollar on this team as it stands. Plus, signing players to contracts is a lot easier than finding them and drafting them. Taylor gave him Brown.

    2 – a) none of those mentioned in goal has proven they can perform in the NHL yet.
    b) face-offs – perhaps they suck so much because he traded Belanger.
    c) the kings got pushed around because Nagy, Handzus, and Preissing are softees. Cammalleri was tougher than all of them.

    3 – O’Sullivan trade is looking good. Although it would’ve been nice to get him for Tukonen.

    4 – Johnson trade – looks good, but see 1b, and it hasn’t been proven yet. But I put it down as a positive.

    5 – what winning tradition has Lombardi been a part of?

    6 – I’ll take your word on this one and get back to you mid-season.

    7 – Signing Ersber, while positive, also lost them a great chance of having 1st pick overall. I think that from that position, we could have gotten Bogosian and Doughty/Teubert. Good move but poor timing.

    8 – Robitaille was gonna be here. He sells tickets. Taylor didn’t, and he’s gone.

    9 – Gauthier looks good the way you put that. If he’s capable of playing at this level, you could be right on this. It did, however, rob some of the commenters on this blog from touting Lucacevic and the other guy, like they were gonna take the NHL by storm.

    Negatives

    I have exhausted myself stating these, so I only need to address your TBD’s

    i’ll have to do it later though

    cheers.

  • JDM

    cristo – rebuttal to rebuttal.

    1. Pointing out that Brown wasn’t drafted by DL is completely besides the point. Fact is we have Brown locked up to an extremely good contract from the teams standpoint. It sets somewhat of a bar for other core players, and especially if Brown wears the ‘C’ then that makes it even more of a positive since the guy leading the rest of the core has shown his contractual dedication to the team. Either way, it’s precedent. I call it ‘perhaps the leagues best contract’ because for the amount of years and pay compared to Dustin’s ability and importance to the team (so long as Brown’s happy which there is nothing to suggest that he isn’t), it’s as good of a contract as DL could hope to sign with any player.

    2. a) I originally pointed out that they aren’t proven and that they won’t all reach their potential. But we haven’t had a goalie who performed like a number one since Potvin, Huet and Garon were good, but didn’t blossom until they were moved. We’ve pinned hopes on Storr alone, Garon alone, Labarbera alone, Cloutier. We’ve always only had one option both in net and in the pipeline. A garden with many seedlings is better than a garden with one half grown plant.
    b)Losing Belanger definately hurt here. But since Handsuz is in many ways a face-off specialist, and Stoll is great at them, overall we still end up with +1 good face-off men under DL. IF, and a big if, Lewis pans out to a 3rd line center and he can take a face-off, Belanger will have been effectively replaced since Lewis has all the speed of Belanger as well.
    c)I think getting pushed around is more than just the fault of Nagy, Handsuz and Preissing, it was an overall lack of coaching cohesion. Whether it was Lombardi’s fault that we had a soft team last season is irrelevant to my point that he quickly recognizes holes in the team and makes moves to address those needs. Better he is able to admit his mistakes and rectify them than be stubborn and not.

    3. Yeah that would have been a better value, but I’m not missing Demitra.

    4. Johnson may be very fresh, but I think he proved in his rookie season that he is a top 4 dman. I see no downside to Johnson – I saw his mistakes last season as natural rookie stuff, not as any sense that he will bust. He may not turn into a top-5 or top 10 dman in the league, but he’s 20 and already extremely solid and beyond his years in terms of talent, mindset and leadership.

    5 San Jose did a fair amount of winning under Lombardi and though his last season there was a bust and he was run out of town, much of San Jose’s current success is due to what DL put in place there (the classic example – drafting Stuart and Sturm who were used to acquire Thornton). Basically all the things you applaud Taylor for doing here is what DL did for the Sharks. Besides, my point was that he openly and publicly said what was obvious but had never been said: the Kings currently have no winning tradition and he’s going to try and create it.

    6. Yes we shall see, but either way… AHL rookie of the year.

    7. I don’t see how finishing last overall would have allowed us to get the 2nd and 3rd overall draft picks. With the same exact season he could have drafted Bogosian and Tuebert. Is your point here really that you wished he had drafted Bogo over Doughty?

    8. Robataille still had to be offered a job. Not an earth shattering move or out of left field, but DL did it and I give him credit for that.

    9. I never heard anyone applaud Lukacevic for anything, maybe I just missed it but he always struck me as a filler of a prospect. I’ll admit that this could be a negative if Gauthier is given too many minutes. He’s solid but does belong on the bottom pairing. If he plays too much then I think it will be similar to Armstrong last year… solid on the 3rd and 4th lines but really has no business being the 2nd line center.

    I know you’ve talked alot of Lombardi’s negatives, but for arguments sake I don’t know that you’ve put them all in one spot and listed for discussion. I’m assuming you agree with each my negatives? What else would you add? Be specific. I’m enjoying specifically laying all of this out.

    In all fairness I’ll add on some more negatives I thought of -

    7. McCauley – Doesn’t qualify as a nuetral because he didn’t really play at all. All he has done for the team in any regard is be money on the books. Not as bad a Cloutier, but enough non-positives to make it a negative.

    8. Not sure that he had much say in this but playing in London, as cool as it was in a way, was ultimately a really lame and detrimental experience for the team in my book.

    9. Though I like Handsuz and enjoyed Stuart while he was here, UFA signings have been ultimately less than good for DL in L.A. So in general, until he makes some really good ones, overall his UFA dealings have been a negative.

    That brings it to 9-9, or if we go with Quisps assessment, 11-10.

  • DellaNooch

    JDM, Quisp, Cristobal, my thoughts

    Positives –

    1. Brown Signing – I agree this is a very good contract for the Kings, it will help us keep more good players because of the extra cap room

    2. Filling specific needs.
    a) Goaltending – I couldn’t agree more with JDM, in 20 years of watching the Kings I’ve only really seen 3 number one goaltenders, Healy, Hrudey, and Potvin. We failed with Stauber and Storr, DT traded Legace and Huet away, and we gave up on Garon too fast. We have several goalies in our system now pushing themselves fo become the number one. That competition works, note SJ wwith Kipersoft, Nabakov and Toskala.
    b) Face offs – Handzus & Stoll are face off guys, DL has addressed that and we’ll see how it pans out. I liked Belanger, but I like JMFJ
    c) Toughness – Cristo is slanting this argument again, Brown and maybe a couple others were responsible for all our toughness, it wasn’t just 3 free agent signings. This was obvious and DL has addressed it. I would have liked more talent with the toughness, but you can’t get something for nothing.

    3. O’Sullivan trade – Cristo – Sully was the 3rd leading scorer in the league during his rookie season in the AHL when the Kings acquired him. Tukenon did what he has always done and will continue to do, he sucked, you need to accept he was a bust. This was a very good trade, Sully was better than Demirtra last year and now Pavol is a Canuck. We also got a first rounder to boot.

    4. Johnson trade – I like this trade because JMFJ shows promise, but to Cristo credit, he still hasn’t produced enough results to say it was an awesome trade. I’ll give Jack more than one season to prove that

    5. Winning Tradition – Bernier, Doughty, Hickey, Teubert, JMFJ, Purcells…we’re adding prospects that have won at the highest levels in their age brackets, that’s important

    6. Signing Purcell – Thank you JDM, all DL haters avoid the credit on this one. Yes he still needs to play his first NHL season, but no one can argue his rookie AHL season was anything but brilliant

    7. Signing Ersberg – Thank you part 2 JDM, yes he’s only played 14 NHL games, but he showed solid positioning, techniques and gave up very few rebounds. I know Cristo argues that it lost us the number 1 spot, but considering Stamkos & Hickey have not played a single pro game, I’m not too broken up about it. The pipe dream of getting multiple top 5 picks is only that.

    8. Robataille – No guranatees on what DT would have done, so this is DL only, speculation doesn’t count.

    9. Denis Gauthier – 6th or 7th Dman or leader in Manchester for a yound minor league defense, can’t see how we lost in that trade, but waivers would have been better.

    Negatives -

    1. Hiring Crawford – Considering MC had success in his only 2 NHL coaching jobs, this wasn’t a huge mistake, but it’s definitely a negative considering the horrible coaching job he did.

    2. Cloutier – I hope this was a lesson to DL about giving your coach his old goaltender. I hated this trade from day one and only hoped it would pan out. It ffailed, miserably.

    3. Trading Lubo – I would say “neutral” on this. I expect Lubo to bounce back, but with a long and costly contract with a NTC, it’s better to be flexible. We got more toughness in Greene and another shot at a second line center, this could be very positive if Stoll and Greene from a big impact.

    4. Ducks Winnng Cup – Still the worst day of my life

    5. Finishing Worse – Only in standing position, they had more points and more importantly, more wins than last year. They also played in the best division in hockey, which gave them a tougher schedule. I would say this is neutral and positive if they improve this season.

    6. Trading Avery – This a a positive, I liked Sean, but he was a bad locker room guy for a young team. He worked well in NY for awhile, but even they casted him away.

    TBD -

    1. Trading Cammalleri – This is a positive, Cammy cannot sign a new contract until next summer, after having a bounce back year. He would not have resigned with the Kings. His time to be a life long King was his RFA status, but he unreasonable demands and lost big time in arbitration. Cristo and I disagree on this one, but research shows I’m right. Waiting for next summer would have meant we got NOTHING for him.

    2. Drafting Doughty – Time will tell

    3. New coaching staff – Let’s hope it’s better

    4. Richardson – Still an interesting pick up, might be brillant might have been too much of a risk.

    Nuetral –

    1. Nagy – If Nagy didn’t get injured, we would have had a 3rd round pick at the very least for him at that trade deadline and that would have been positive. A negative would have been re-signing him

    2. Calder – First 20 games next year determine this move. At times he was good then he got injured and was never the same.

    3. Losing Blake – We thought he was playing the Joe Sakic card, but he was bluffing, good riddence. This is a positive, Blake will take the Sharks down

    4. Preissing – Like Calder, first 20 games determines this move

    5. Stuart – This is a positive, we got 2 picks out of it, can’t help that the Wings are appealing, even Hossa traded colors to be with them.

    I know Cristo will disagree and say I’m drinking the Kool Aid, but I don’t buy his conspircy theory either. DT didn’t leave DL a Stanley Cup winner, he left him a project, DL’s working on it. One thing he’s doing that DT never did, was establish depth for each position. Within a couple years, every position will have a Monarch battling hard to take that job from the incumbant and that will elevate our players production as well as do something else that is very important, give us more protection against injuries, which in my opinion cost DT & Andy Murray their jobs.

    Sorry for the long post

  • cristobal

    Hey boys,

    Man, I don’t know where to start. DellaNooch, you make a lot of good points. JDM seems to have a good take on the Positive side of things, and like i said, does more to convince me than most others that there are more positives than I’m seeing.

    Let me try to arrange all this.

    Negatives -

    1 – Hiring Crawford was a horrible mistake, and it was compounded by 2 things:
    a – he should have fired him when Crawford left Bernier in for 7 goals agains in the Boston game. and b – he should have fired him after the trade-deadline earlier this year. I really don’t know how to find any positives here. DL also held onto him two months after their season ended. What was he doing?

    2. Cloutier – Wether he listened to crawford or not, his bungle. Plus he paid the guy a ton. Double Jeopardy there. Also, he’s still affecting the cap to the tune of nearly a mil. Also led to shipping out Garon who had an ok year w/ edmonton.

    3. Trading Lubo. – He should be here. I don’t care what he got, he’s one of my favorites and suffered because the team lacked quality. If DL doesn’t drive the team into the ground, he’s still looking good. Taylor had injuries destroy the team, but he was still able to finish middle of the pack. Lubo suffered for Lombardi’s follies.

    4. He loses points purely because the Ducks won a cup while he was GM – though that itself is not his fault. (This I don’t actually hold against him. The way the ducks got their hand’s on the Cup should be educational to us. As much as I praise Taylor, Corey Perry was picked just after Boyle and Tambellini. ahhhhh)

    5. Finishing worse each season so far than the preceding season. – Della, JDM, Nooch. One, even two times is ok, but to finally strip the team down after faltering with your efforts two years in a row is pitiful. I don’t want to hear that he was rebuilding from the start. Rubbish.

    6. Trading Avery. It was positive to show this guy the door, but what has been the return? F in the transaction department. How can you not bring in a decent player to start helping the team?

    TBD -

    1. Trading Cammalleri for a gamble in Tuebert. – This may turn into a quality draft pick, but what was the price? He alienated an arrogant player with arbitration and brought in, and paid better, Handzus and Nagy. To add to the insult, Calder for almost 3 mil? Preissing for almost 3 mil? Stuart for, what was it, 3.5? Don’t forget that Teubert was had for Cammalleri AND Norstrom. Don’t forget that. I know Modry was a part of the deal, but why? Lombardi got his clock cleaned on this one. He got too little for Norstrom, and gave away too much in Cammalleri. Awful. I like Teuberts scouting reports and potential, but awful.

    2. Drafting Doughty over Bogosian. Lewis and Hickey being the other key picks so far. – I have high hopes for Doughty, but think that I may have taken Bogosian based on what I’ve read about him. This could go either way so it is TBD. But Hickey needs to perform really well to justify the gamble he took drafting this guy. He’ll either look like a genius, or a heel. He could likely have gotten him much later, but I really have no clue. I don’t see why he should be praised for the team being bad enough to take that gamble, though.

    3. New coaching staff. – Somebody’s got to be the Coach! And it couldn’t remain Crawford. I don’t know enough about Murray to say pro or con. He seems like a quality guy, but that doesn’t always work out. Its the Kings and they can make good guys look bad. I would have preferred someone a little revolutionary, like Kopitar’s dad or something. My dream was Larionov, and I just heard a story about him that makes me rue that it wasn’t him even more. LARIONOV. He’s a local guy, too.

    4. Richardson – This guy better sparkle because I don’t know why Stuart was even traded to Detroit if Lombardi was essentially gonna trade that pick for Richardson. Good luck to the man, but I will be expecting a lot. I know you all think Stuart could have just walked, but if he hadn’t gone to Detroit and won a Cup, he’d be much more likely to be here for a few more years.

    Nuetral -

    1. Nagy – Come on. This is a negative. Paid too much, and got little for it. Once again. Nice job paying this one year guy more than Cammalleri. Awful.

    2. Calder – If he’d gotten Daniel Cleary for 1.5 and he’d done what Calder did, it would be bad. Cleary was still wanted by the wings because he’s a quality player who contributes in a role he wasn’t drafted for, like Maltby, whom I love. Calder is a bust and I don’t see him redeaming himself this year. I hope he can prove me wrong.

    3. Losing Blake for nothing. – What happened here? Couldn’t trade him to San Jose who sent a 1st round pick to Buffalo for Campbell? Couldn’t trade him to Colorado who sent a 1st round pick to Columbus for Foote? Was he asleep at the wheel? Then he can’t resign him despite Blake to help with JJ, Doughty, and Hickey? Awful. He shouldn’t have wasted 12 million over two years in the first place then. Awful. Plus, I believe Blake felt like his reputation was being spoilt here. My personal uninformed opinion, but he was left holding the smoking gun, wasn’t he?

    4. Preissing. – did he play for the Kings last year because I hardly noticed. For that much money, he could have gotten something better, right? Who else was knocking down doors to give Preissing so much?

    5. Stuart – losing him is washed out by getting some return on a player that cost us nothing. – Totally disagree. Stuart isn’t the a Norris guy, but he’d be a great guy to have this year, and next. The funny thing is that blake, stuart, and Lubo all took so much criticism last year but I have a hard time seeing how they deserve it. Bad coach, bad system, bad UFA help (except Stuart) and they’re to blame?

    —- I have some more negatives to add.
    Where is the return for Sopel? He’s as good in my mind as Stuart. He’s too big to get abused and can move the puck up ice. I was against trading him in the first place. Miller, I don’t expect much for, but Sopel’s trade was stupid.

    Guliano and Zeiler – Two years when Boyle or Tukonen could have been played in their stead. Heck, even Connor James or Noah Clarke. These guys give all they’ve got, but they don’t even have Bylsma’s talent. If the team were doing well, i could live with Guliano getting a role of sorts, but the time was wasted for nothing. Kanko even may have done something had they really given him a shot. Kanko was top 10 in scoring in the AHL a few years ago. Why was a prospect left to rot for these guys?

    There may be a rebuild underway, but no indications of that from the AHL where the Monachs went out in the first round. Where is the success with the up and comers?

    Steve Bernier traded twice in the past 6 months with no waves from the Kings. This guys a good player and could really develop into something given a steady home where he’s got expectations on him. St. Louis signed him to a RFA contract after he was traded to Vancouver. We’ll get to seem him a bit more, now.

    2 first round picks traded at the deadline last year, none to the Kings. Detroit’s 2nd rounder? Might as well call that a 3rd rounder.

    Finally, for now, no UFA’s this year? Given the track record, I can understand why, but for what reason would it be bad to sign Hossa for 8 million for a year or two? For what reason has there been no inquiry with Shanahan? Bouwmeester’s 24 and unsettled, why not offer some dross and a pick or two? Are there no free-agents that could help this team next year or for years to come? The only reason I can see for what has happened is that he wants the top pick next year. Like I’ve said, what if the Kings really are horrible? 35-40 points horrible? Will enough people go to games to keep the Kings in LA? I think the risks are large and you all know I don’t trust Ownership. The things I’ve listed don’t even get in to what I think of the production that is a Kings game. I find a lot of it embarrassing, though I know it’s becoming the norm in the NHL. The music and the lights and the blah blah blah, it just gets to me.

    Forum Days made me happy.

  • Quisp

    Cristobal said, “Don’t forget that Teubert was had for Cammalleri AND Norstrom. Don’t forget that. I know Modry was a part of the deal, but why? Lombardi got his clock cleaned on this one. He got too little for Norstrom, and gave away too much in Cammalleri. Awful.”

    You have to stop saying that DL traded Nordstrom and Cammalleri for Teubert. Here’s what really happened:

    Nordstrom and Pushkarev were traded for a prospect (Fransson), Dallas’s 2nd round pick in ’07 (Moller), 3rd round pick in ’07 (Cameron), and 1st round pick in ’08. Modry was also sent to LA in the deal, but was clearly not central to the trade. DL moved him a year later for a 3rd round pick.

    Cammalleri was traded for Calgary’s 1st round pick in ’08. This pick and the Dallas 1st round pick was traded to move up to 13th overall.

    Which DL used to select Teubert.

    So, as a pure asset analysis…

    The Kings started with Nordstrom, Cammalleri and Pushkarev. They traded those players and received in return:

    Teubert, Moller, Cameron, Fransson and Wudrick (the Modry pick).

    Pushkarev was a disappointment who Dallas has done a decent job rehabilitating (everybody wins). Cammalleri was going to walk in a year, as we all know. Nordstrom was going to retire in a year, as we now know. We could easily have gotten nothing for these three players. Instead:

    1. Teubert, a blue-chip prospect.
    2. Moller, who, since he was drafted, is also now a blue-chip prospect.
    3. Wudrick, who is friggin’ great and I can’t wait.
    4. Cameron, who is a few years off, but now sits in the depth chart ahead of every Kings prospect at the center position except Lewis and Boyle.
    5. (Fransson, who appears to be off everyone’s radar, is apparently a long-shot ever to make it to North America, to say nothing of the NHL, but who knows…)

    Anyway, if you want to boil down the trade, call it Cammalleri and Nordstrom for Teubert, Moller and Wudrick.

    A gamble? Sure. Me, I love it.

  • cristobal

    C’mon quisp – Wudrick? How in the heck do you know he’s great? A rookies camp?

    All of those picks could have been had for any old players. I give Moeller as much chance as Tukonen of playing much in the NHL.
    I boil it down to Teubert was had for Norstrom (the team captain at the time) and Cammalleri (the previous seasons team high goal-scorer). I like the idea of Teubert, but I need him to live up to the level of what it cost to get him. I think a different GM would have gotten more.

    Regardless, many on here say Cammalleri = Teubert. I see it as Cammalleri + Norstrom = Teubert. But thats me.

    cheers

  • Anonymous

    DellaNooch said:

    “Negatives -

    5. Finishing worse each season so far than the preceding season.”

    The strange thing is that we had a three point improvement over last season…but dropped in the overall standings…

  • Quisp

    Your cynicism re prospects has been noted (repeatedly). To answer your question re Wudrick, I would say I know I think he’s great the same way I knew what I thought about other prospects over the years: by watching them play in the little snippets that are available. I’m not a professional, but I have been paying attention for twenty years and my track record isn’t bad. For example, I never sat around thinking Roman Vopat, or Pavel Rosa, or Lauri Tukonen, or Matt Zultek, or Scott Barney, seemed worth getting excited about. Hey, Wudrick could be a big bust. So what? That’s what happens with prospects; some pan out, some don’t.

    “All of those picks could have been had for any old players.”

    I had no idea teams were so willing to give up their first and second round picks for “any old players.” Damn. He should have sent Armstrong over instead of Cammalleri and Thornton instead of Nordstrom.

    “I give Moeller [sic] as much chance as Tukonen of playing much in the NHL.”

    Really? Because every time I see Moller he is a stand out and every time I see Tukonen he’s invisible or an utter disappointment.

    “I see it as Cammalleri + Norstrom = Teubert. But thats me.”

    But I’ve already demonstrated that in reality that’s not the case. It’s Cammy + Nordstrom (+Pushkarev) = five prospects, not one. Five. You may as well just say Cammalleri + Nordstrom = nothing. There’s no reason to value Teubert if you don’t value the others. None of them has played an NHL game.

  • cristobal

    I’m just going with averages, quisp. The amount of players that grow into quality NHLers isn’t even all that high an average in the 1st round, so after that I have a hard time believing in every single one.

    –I had no idea teams were so willing to give up their first and second round picks for “any old players.” Damn. He should have sent Armstrong over instead of Cammalleri and Thornton instead of Nordstrom.– You know I meant the 2nd and 3rd rounders. The no. 1, as we have established was also involved in the Teubert acquisition. Right?

    Yes, my cynicism is established. It was built over many years of pulling for this team. Perhaps you should look again at the number of players Lombardi drafted in san jose and the number that are still playing and showing promise. I do, and I don’t see a track record of really finding gems. A few, but what’s the average?

    Teubert isn’t a prospect, he’s just not completely developed, like many at 18. He BETTER be a sure-fire top 4 defenseman, if not top 2, or things will look even worse. Just like doughty – sure-fire. The others are “prospective” NHLers.

    cheers quisp. how long is it again?

  • Quisp

    But if you’re going with the averages, you have to use all of your at-bats, i.e. prospects. You can’t just say four of the five at-bats don’t exist.

  • cristobal

    I think JDM really made a good point with the goaltenders. If you look at that situation and say ‘ these guys are all highly touted’ then the average would say that one of the 4 or 5 will be tremendous quality. Like I said in response, I thought that was a good way to put it and helped make the odds seem better to me. But, I also recognize that we’ve played an incredible number of keepers over the past 2 seasons. I’m not condemning them, they played for a poor team, but we haven’t yet found “the guy” despite the averages.
    I do hope Ersberg shocks us all and becomes a regular that is impossible to unseat. And, it could be quick or zatkoff that really turns out to be a solid starter, or a tremedous backup. I’ve read good things about Zatkoff on THN.
    The guys like Moeller and what’s-his-name Wudruck, I’m not going to even begin holding my breath. I think those picks could have been had for Gulianos or Calders or even Tukonens or Kankos. Instead, Lombardi is busy shipping off NHL talent for later round picks…
    Again, if DL’s track record in the draft were truly stellar, then I’d maybe have more hope. But there’s not much beyond Cheechoo, Samuelsson, and possibly Clowe. It’s not like he’s getting Iginla for Neuwendyke.

  • cristobal

    btw quisp, JDM, Nooch – my friend told me he played with Tavares this summer out here and he’s F-ing incredible. And already pretty big.

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