Schneider update II
Ducks defenseman Mathieu Schneider has cleared waivers, so now it's up to the Ducks to figure out what to do with him. It's hard to say what the likely outcome is here, although a trade is still more likely than Schneider being sent to the minors. I don't see the Kings getting involved in this, unless it's a situation where the Ducks try to recall Schneider from the minors and the Kings can grab him for half of his $5.7-million salary.
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Rich Hammond has covered the Kings, on a full-time or part-time basis, since the 2000-01 season. He was the beat writer for the entire John Torchetti era and has witnessed Bob Miller singing country music in a Nashville honky-tonk bar. A native of Los Angeles, Rich has worked at the Daily News since 1999 and also serves as the paper's deputy sports editor. E-mail Rich at rich.hammond@dailynews.com.
Jill Painter joined the Daily News in 2000 and during the last eight years she's covered the Dodgers, Cal State Northridge, UCLA, Kings, golf and everything in between. Even though she's from Colorado, she still freezes in the Staples Center press box but always manages to thaw her fingers in time to make deadline. E-mail Jill at jill.painter@dailynews.com.
Hey Rich,
Thanks for the update... I thought I read somewhere that after he cleared waivers, and a trade was being made, he would have to be offered back thru the waiver system before a trade could be completed?
Rich, sorry for the re-post, but I'm kind of fascinated by the details of how this works or doesn't work. My question is, does Schneider still have to clear re-entry waivers if he's traded? My other question: why do you think DL wouldn't be interested in trading for ML when he should be able to get picks from Anaheim (as an incentive to take the salary) and then get more picks at the trade deadline when Schneider is traded to Tampa for their historic Cup run?
My understanding is, Anaheim can't recall Schneider until 12 days before the season starts, so in theory if a deal is going to happen, it would happen before that. Does that in any way overlap with reality?
Rich
have the kings reached the cap floor yet? Also does it appear that Lombardi plans on just tanking the entire season.
What impact do you a 50 to 60 loss season will have on the development of this team because with this joke defense that is what the kings are looking at
To Jonny and Quisp.
Schneider does not have to clear re-entry waivers in order to be traded.
jonny, he would essentially have to go through waivers again before being traded were the Kings to have acquired him via waivers. meaning they wouldn't be able to move him at the deadline without first offering him to any teams who had made an original claim.
Quisp, he has cleared waivers and can be traded now. he does not have to go through re-entry waivers because he has not been designated for assignment... like being sent to the minors.
Anaheim's options are as follows... they either trade him or designate him for the purpose of placing him on re-entry waivers. the latter will not get them where they need to be without the cost of additional "real" assets, so it is the least likely scenario of the two.
Schneider doesn't have to clear re-entry waivers. Denis Gauthier didn't either.
I don't think Burke puts him on re-entry waivers because they can't even afford half of his salary to sign Selanne. The other option is Marchant but he has NTC and NMC.
Even if he is sent to minors his salary cap number still hits the team. Burke is up against a wall and he is going to lose a 1st or 2nd in trying to get rid of Schneider.
This is definitely a warning to spending frivolously and you see why Lombardi has taken the approach that he has.
Schneider doesn't have to clear re-entry waivers. Denis Gauthier didn't either.
I don't think Burke puts him on re-entry waivers because they can't even afford half of his salary to sign Selanne. The other option is Marchant but he has NTC and NMC.
Even if he is sent to minors his salary cap number still hits the team. Burke is up against a wall and he is going to lose a 1st or 2nd in trying to get rid of Schneider.
This is definitely a warning to spending frivolously and you see why Lombardi has taken the approach that he has.
So it's kind of a reverse bidding war, with Burke playing whatever suitors he has for Schneider off each other, to see how little he will have to give up to have someone take Schneider off his hands. Hilarious.
to la. : schneider and a 1st
To ana : cap relief and a third:
How great would it be if nobody picks him up, the ducks send him down to the minors, and then try to have him clear re-entry waivers, and Edm picks him up for half his salary! I guess only in a perfect world...
Rich,
I just read on TSN, that Justin Williams will be out for about 4 - 6 months because he just tore he achilles tendon. Do you think the Kings will go after Gleason, for a forward, Army, Zeus, etc.... ? Maybe throw in a goalie or pick?
Quisp - sounds funny, but the ducks may give the Kings a second to take the cap hit now, and a third to get him back in Feb. I don't think reentry waivers helps the Ducks enough. This would also be the best situation for the player (doesn't move, and get's one last cup shot).
Last note, I have heard through a girlfriend of an ex-player (so put a low value on the quality of this info, but still worth a note) that Schneider is not bad in the locker room, he is just not a rah, rah guy.
Burke is so overrated! When will he learn that filling a team with inflated salaries is how the NHL did it 5 years ago. I believe Burtuzzi's salary is going against their cap this year also. Burke is the absolute worst at managing the cap. What a joke. The only thing keeping him alive is that Duck fans are to stupid to realize what this guy is costing them.
Couldn't happen to a better team!
Burke brought the Ducks a Cup and he will be out of there shortly. The Cup is the ultimate prize and I don't think too many Duck fans would trade Cup for a chance to be contenders for multiple years. The way the
league is now structured it will be hard for contenders
to keep their teams together for the long haul.Burke has already accomplished what he came to Anaheim for
and being that he usually drafts like crap his team will probably drop off in the next couple of years but he will be in Toronto by then anyway.
Bryan Murray brought them the Cup, Burke was just there to take the credit. Don't fool yourself, Murray built the Cup team.
Rich,
Why don't you think the Kings will be interested? Price too high? I mean, weren't the Kings JUST talking to Burke about Schneider a few days ago?
Deelo said:
"Schneider doesn't have to clear re-entry waivers. Denis Gauthier didn't either....
...Even if he is sent to minors his salary cap number still hits the team. Burke is up against a wall and he is going to lose a 1st or 2nd in trying to get rid of Schneider."
Actually he does have to clear re-entry waivers. Remember what happened to LaBarbera a couple years back. Nobody claimed him initially when the season started, then he got stuck there because the Kings couldn't risk losing him.
And for your second quote, technically the team has to pay his salary. However, his cap number doesn't count against Anaheim when he's in the AHL. Again, remember Cloutier last season? He was sent down and his salary didn't count against the cap. However, we still paid his salary while he was down in Manchester.
OCPiker said:
And for your second quote, technically the team has to pay his salary. However, his cap number doesn't count against Anaheim when he's in the AHL. Again, remember Cloutier last season? He was sent down and his salary didn't count against the cap. However, we still paid his salary while he was down in Manchester.
Because MS is over 35, his full salary does count against the cap, even in the minors. Burke is really hogtied.
OCPiker --
The question isn't whether MS has to clear re-entry waivers if he's called up by Anaheim (clearly he does); the question is, does he have to clear re-entry waivers if he's traded by Anaheim before he's called up? That would be why the Gauthier situation is germane, while the LaBarbera situation is not. I still don't know for sure the answer to the question, but I assume Deelo is correct.
Secondly, it was my understanding that because MS is over-35 Anaheim still takes the cap hit (Cloutier was not over 35). As with all things on this topic, I could be completely wrong. But I do believe I read that somewhere.
Well Quisp, it looks like we are both right in some ways regarding the subject of cap hit. According to my research:
50.5(d)(i)(B)(5) states the following:
"All Player Salary and Bonuses earned in a League Year by a Player who is in the second or later year of a multi-year SPC which was signed when the Player was age 35 or older (as of June 30 of the League Year in which the SPC is to be effective), but which Player is not on the Club's Active Roster, Injured Reserve, Injured Non Roster or Non Roster, and regardless of whether, or where, the Player is playing, except to the extent the Player is playing under his SPC in the minor leagues, in which case only the Player Salary and Bonuses in excess of $100,000 shall count towards the calculation of Averaged Club Salary;"
At the same time, nhlscap.com does state that:
"Players assigned to the minors - even if on one-way contracts - do not count (as long as they are not on conditioning assignments or fit the condition of 50.5(d)(i)(B)(5) above)"
Still trying to find out about the re-entry waivers question if MS is traded.
As I stated before a player does not have to clear re-entry waivers in order to be traded. As of right now Schneider cannot even be assigned to the AHL because the waivers requested were not during the regular season period. He is technically at the same status as he was three days ago. An NHL player.
On the Re-entry Question: After wading through an interesting thread at hfboards.com, and after poring over the CBA, and after a morning-run induced epiphany, I have reached the following determination: It is not the case that Schneider would be required to pass through Re-entry Waivers if the Ducks traded him to another club. In fact, he does not need to pass through re-entry waivers at all.
When Schneider "cleared Waivers," he did not pass through a magic gate into some other realm. What happened is that the Ducks gained the right to assign, or loan, the player to a team in another, NHL-affiliated, league.
There's a catch, however. In this case, the Ducks haven't actually gained any Loan rights. The CBA, in Article 13.2, says a Club can only Loan a player to another club if:
"(a) Regular Waivers were requested and cleared during the Playing Season Waiver Period; and
(b) the Player has not played in ten (10) or more NHL Games cumulative since Regular Waivers on him were last cleared, and more than thirty (30) days cumulative on an NHL roster have not passed since Regular Waivers on him were last cleared."
The Ducks waived Schneider outside the Playing Season Waiver Period. They haven't assigned him to any other club -- and they can't. Since the player is not on loan to another team in another league, he does not need to be "recalled" from anywhere and does not need to pass back through the gate.
If they want to assign him to a minor league Club, and bring him back through Re-Entry Waivers (to encourage someone else to take half his cap hit, say), they will have to run him through Regular Waivers once again, during the Playing Season Waiver Period.
The Player Season Waiver Period rule explains why the Kings were able to trade for Denis Gauthier and add him to the club during the off season without passing him through Re-entry. It also explains why they were able to add LaBarbera in the off season without going through re-entry. In both cases, the player wasn't currently assigned to a minor league club because the clubs were in the off season; there was nowhere to Recall each player from.
Finally, the expiration date on the Loan rights given the team through Waivers confirms its nature. Waivers is not a method Clubs use to get rid of a player. Waivers is the method Clubs use to GAIN THE RIGHT to get rid of a player. We saw this in effect with Sergei Samsonov last season. He was waived, passed through Waivers unclaimed, but remained with the NHL Club. He even played a game or two, then he was assigned, and then he was recalled (and picked up by another NHL Club).
So. Schneider hasn't gone anywhere. He is still a Duck. He is still on the Club's Reserve List. They are still responsible for his contract. He can join the team at Training Camp. He can even make the opening day roster. What he can't do is help the Club get itself under the Cap -- not with help from a piece or two of the Duck's future.
Or what Squidward said.
No Schneider! This team needs more defense, not pylons. Unless Kings management is looking to reincarnate the "Escort Service" of the mid-90s.
Model62 and Squidward --
First of all, thank you. That was an excellent distillation of detail about which I had no friggin' clue. What I don't understand, though, is, under those conditions, why Anaheim would bother putting MS on waivers in the off-season at all. Why not just continue to pursue a trade? To put it another way, if Burke can't get any cap relief by sending MS "down" (due to his age and the exceptions attached to that), and if he would have to send him through waivers again once the season starts in order to even get to the re-entry process (where it seems much more likely MS would be snapped up by someone at a discount), what strategy can Burke possibly be pursuing, other than, well, utter desperation?
I dunno, Quisp-
It'd be a freebie for the Ducks? Toss the player out there and see what happens. Burke said he'd had offers, just none that were attractive enough. Maybe he's guessing one of his potential trading partners will get nervous about some other club putting in a claim and decide to act. If the rest of the league calls his bluff, he's back where he started, holding onto unattractive trade proposals.
Although. His hand might be a little weaker now that his move has revealed that the market for Schneider has no floor.
Burke claims he could nor find a trade that was acceptable and that MS may now be part of an even bigger trade.