Judging progress

How about these two categories.....Wins and Losses!

Imagine if Lombardi had been able to obtain Roberto Luongo or Tomas Vokoun. I know Luongo said he wouldn't sign, but maybe he could've been persuaded. The Kings have more weapons than the Canucks, and if it weren't for Luongo, they'd be terrible.

Then Lombardi opted for his draft picks instead of Vokoun. I'm sorry, I'd gladly trade in Thomas Hickey (who hasn't even been able to crack the roster), Jonathan Bernier, and as much I as I like him, Oscar Moller; all of the players we wouldn't have drafted since Florida wanted our first two picks and Bernier.

With either one of the those netminders, the few shots allowed statistic would be more significant, and we'd be in the playoff hunt!

hey Anze,

That's why you'd never be a GM in this league. That's an absurd deal. Hickey is a freakn kid, to say he can't crack the lineup is unfair. Bernier will be huge in this league soon. As far as anything else you said....i'll just shrug it off.

how do you come up with this stuff Rich? I've never read a sports reporter come up with as interesting interviews or facts or thoughts than you.

You need to give journalists the beat down... Show them how it's done!

things could always be better (the team could be in first place) but you've got to look at where these team is coming from and put their position in perspective. this team is moving in the right direction finally, be happy.

the team might finish near the bottom of the standings again, although i doubt this will happen unless there are some serious injuries. i think the team is going to start picking up some more wins eventually and will end the season closer to 500 then they are now.

to take some stock in the situation:

the defense was projected to be one of the worst in the league. this has been far from the truth. the team got lucky with OD's strong play and the surprise pick up of Quincy. Doughty has looked incredible for an 18 year old and will continue to improve. it now seems that the team has too many NHL caliber dmen otherwise they wouldn't be dressing 7 guys. granted this isn't the best group of d in the league, but they certainly aren't the worst. and that is a HUGE improvement from last year. bob and jim were saying last night how the kings are the 2nd stingiest team right now in the goals allowed department. not a bad stat considering how many goals this team allowed last year.

moving to the forwards might seem more troublesome given how much fire power the team has. i really don't think this will be a problem over the long haul. the scoring hasn't been as consistent as we'd like (not yet) but at least it's been coming from different lines and players. there's nothing worse than being a one trick pony when it comes to scoring like the Senators. shut down their top line and it's tough for them to win games. i think Murray's line combinations (at times) have been terrific. why not put Frolov on the third line? there's nothing better than having a shut down line that can score too. Boyle now seems to be responding which is a good sign. unfortunately Kopitar and Brown aren't scoring as much as we'd might like, but i really think the goals will come. besides Kopitar made a sick pass last night to set up the Preissing goal....

last point here:

the team is playing together finally! win or lose they seem to look out for each other more than in the last few years. they finish their checks and they play a much meaner style of hockey over all. how can you complain about that? of course if the team had Luongo that would awesome, but how many other teams are wishing the same thing? have some patience and just enjoy the team's development this year.

Anze:

Hickey, Bernier and Moller for...Vokoun? Look, Vokoun has been a consistent performer over his career, solid GAA, solid save %, probably a little better than the teams he's been on, but you're talking about trading (at the time) the number #2 goaltending prospect in the world (behind Price; now Bernier is #1), a top five pick and a second round pick for a stable veteran goalie which would arguably been a good aquisition for a playoff-ready team, but for the Kings a year and a half ago, it would have been insane. If DL wasn't willing to do pull the trigger on that trade then, before Hickey and Moller's excellent years last year, he sure as **** wouldn't do it now, with Moller arriving in the NHL at least a year ahead of schedule, posting 6 points in 12 games on what has been the Kings' top scoring line while leading the team in goals. Hickey hasn't cracked the lineup yet because he's not physically ready yet; this is expected and not a problem.

Anyway, the Kings' defensive numbers this year are better than Vokoun's numbers.

How about Bouwmeester on the LA blue line next year? Maybe for a draft pick & JLB? Just a little fantasizing...

Can anyone answer why we are unable to bring in Jan Marek...one of our players who is playing in Russia? In 23 games...he has 19 goals 13 assists and 32 pts. I am not understanding how that works?
Thanks for the info.

He probably just didn't want to come to North America. I'm pretty sure I remember Lombardi trying to sign him, but it never happened. We ended up getting a pick from NYR because we were unable to sign him, I think.

Ian -

Johnson, Doughty, Quincey, Greene, Harrold, Hickey, Teubert, Voynov, Martinez, Campbell. No room for B'meester.

cant forge tabout sean o'don quisp!

a few things...

first, i think quisp is right on. because of preissings contract and the fact he is actually showing some game this year, he could also be in the mix. as for o'd, not sure he will be around. i think he is one and done, but stranger things have happened. quisp's d line-up is young, tough and o-ffensively talented. i would like to see some of those names etched on a certain shiney cup.

as for progress, yes wins and losses are the ultimate test of how a team is doing. we are 4-6-2 as of right now. i believe that if ersberg would have been in net the last 4-5 games, we could easily be 7-4-1. even saying that, i think we are better than most folks thought we would be. we are way more competitive than most folks thought we would be. our defense is one of the best in the league. .0000000000000056 of the earth's population thought are d would be good. most thought we would be giving up 5 goals a game.

i'm not gonna pat myself on the shoulder, but i said prior to the season starting that if we played team d, we would improve immensly. we did. our problem has been jlb. he needs to sit - for a while. i have seen most of the games this year at staples and a couple of the road games. the team just looks more comfortable with ersberg in net. jlb gives up at least one soft goal a game. that goal is why we are 2-6 in one-goal games. yes, ersberg lost to the quacks 1-0, but he also got us the 3-2 victory over fla. 3 out of 4 points in the last 2 games. murray seems to be a deliberate coach. he wanted to stick with barbs because he felt he was the best going into the season. i think he is slowly seeing the light. ersberg is better positioned. better fundementally. and does not give up a tenth of the rebounds barbs does. i look for ersberg to have another good game against the blues and push our home stand record to 2-2-2. i think you play ersberg until he has a bad game. until then, why change a formula, that at least for the short-term, has been working. same with the lines. i don't think sully should be on a 4th line, but if it produces and is one of your better lines, then hey, what the hell. the players (and us fans especially) should not care what line a player is on, only that the team is playing well, competes everynight and wins enough games to make it exciting. if the kings can score goals across 3-4 lines, we will be a much better team as the season progresses.

end of soap box. thank your rich for the oppurtunity to vent at 1145pm.

go kings...

"Johnson, Doughty, Quincey, Greene, Harrold, Hickey, Teubert, Voynov, Martinez, Campbell. No room for B'meester."

I hope there is a serious tinge of sarcasm there. JayBo is better than each of them, and could only not usurp JJ and DD. Everyone else would have to move over. Harrold? Are you kidding me? Were talking about friggin JayBo....

I thought Ersberg had a bad game against Florida. Two soft goals on only 15 shots. That shows why the defense are blocking the shots they do, if they let one by, it is sure to wind up in the net.
Can anyone tell me, if there ever has been a 4th pick overall, or in that area, played on the Canadian World Junior Team and still plays junior as an overage 20 year old?

I have absolutely no problem with the lack of scoring from the kings at this point. The scoring will eventually come as season the goes on. But just to watch the development of the Kings defense especially with the kids they have on the blue line, it's a tremedous turn around.

One day, they will put it all together and it will be special to watch.

GO KINGS GO!!!!!

I'm not as sold on Bernier as everyone else seems to be. He's been anointed "franchise goalie of the future", but has done nothing to prove he's capable of that title. Yes, he's played well in a few games for the Kings, but every time he gets sent down for more development, he mopes and ends up not playing well for a while.

Someone made the comparison of Bernier vs. Carey Price. I think Price is at least a step above Bernier in terms of raw potential and talent. Price probably could have been the Habs #1 goalie a year earlier then he was.

Is it possible that Bernier is just developing slower? Sure. But I'm more concerned about his attitude then his talent level. An NHL goalie has to be mentally tough, and I don't think the Kings have seen that from Bernier yet, or he'd probably be in the NHL now.

But with all that said, no way I'd trade Bernier, Hickey, & Moller for Vokoun. MAYBE for Luongo, but certainly not Vokoun. He's a good goalie, not a franchise goalie.

Re: Hickey

I have the privelage of watching him night in and night out here at Key Arena and soon to be The Kent Events Center. He's a tough kid, sticks up for his teammates and when anyone BREATHES ON his goalie he's right there to police the situation. Granted he's an overager, but i think he will DEVELOP nicely into a 3 or 4 defenseman on this team. He's also the captain of his team, which shows that he can be a good leader down the road.

Awhile back, i called him a wasted draft pick, but now i regret saying that. Ever since i started working for the Thunderbirds my opinion has changed drastically. I haven't seen him play in the NHL so i'll hold off on going any further.

Dorian and Quisp,

You sound like Lombardi minions. Thomas Hickey is a fine prospect, but if he does not make the roster next year, I don't think he'll be worth the 4th overall selection from 2007. I would think most teams expect top 5 picks to have an immediate impact, or at least make the roster in no more than three years, with goaltenders being the exception. Bernier is going to be huge? Well, we better hope so. There's absolutely no way for you, me or anyone to say so definitively. I won't count his few games played in the NHL as a harbinger of what to expect, b/c we all know he wasn't ready. I wasn't saying there wouldn't have been a risk involved with this scenario.

The fact is Vokoun would make the Kings a playoff threat for the next few years. Quisp, I'm glad you mentioned that he has a solid career goals against and save percentage. I live in Nashville, I've seen him play since he began starting. With Shea Weber and Ryan Suter and Dan Hamhuis coming into form, Nashville would be a threat to go deeper than the first round of the playoffs with Vokoun, but they had ownership issues and needed to save money, so that was their loss and they went with Dan Ellis. And with the Kings becoming a playoff contender, maybe they'd be averaging more than 14,000 in attendance a game. I think that would matter to their bottom line. After all, I don't care how promising things are, fans are tired of the losing. Period.

As far as Luongo, I would've much rather seen Lombardi take a chance on him than Dan Cloutier. Maybe if he would've got to meet the players and understand what the objective is here, he would've reconsidered signing. Like I said, the Canucks would be very average or below without him, much like the Kings. If Luongo would've signed and stayed, forget playoffs, I'm thinking Cup contenders. No joke.

totally off-topic, but check out this link and scroll down a little for an AWESOME Westgarth fight.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=570253

Can't wait for him to put this kind of hurting on the likes of Ott, Avery, Boogard, Parker, Tucker and the like.

Oh, and also the Kings apparently picked up Ellis from Buffalo for round 2!

http://mainehockeyjournal.com/2008/11/08/kennedy-nets-winner-in-shootout-for-portland/

at the bottom -

"NOTES: The Pirates won’t be seeing anybody from Buffalo, despite Matt Ellis being placed on waivers today. The Los Angeles King, who lost Ellis on waivers to the Sabres, reclaimed him shortly after the Sabres had to make a roster move in order to get down to the 23-man roster limit. Dineen said he expected Ellis to get claimed and wasn’t expecting him to make it to Portland. Dineen also said he wasn’t sure if Ellis would be heading to L.A. or assigned to Manchester as the Kings could assign him, once he’s reclaimed."

I imagine he'll go to Manchester but do we have to put him through waivers as well? Porr guy getting bounced around so much. I did like his style of play though and if he makes it to Manch he should help them out a bunch since they are struggling. A career AHLer is a valuable thing...

Visionquest, Re Bouwmeester:

Look, he's great. He's a big deal. I like him. The comment I was responding to was [paraphrase] "why don't we trade JLB and a pick for Bouwmeester?" First of all, the only way that trade makes even the tiniest amount of sense is if the Kings are a lock for the first or second pick next June (because, and I would think this doesn't even need to be said, nobody is going to give the Kings anything of value for Jason LaBarbera). Now, I don't think that's going to happen (trading away a #1 or #2 overall pick), but if it did, I don't think DL would be trading that pick away for Jay Bouwmeester. The reason is, he likes where the defense is right now. Visionquest, you looked at my list of Kings D and said that Bouwmeester is better than all buy DD and JJ. I actually think Quincey is going to prove himself to be better than Bouwmeester, as well. But I'll grant you I might be wrong about that. The point is, Hickey and Teubert also project to top-four, so -- in terms of the future -- trading for a guy who must have top pairing minutes when it means you will have to bump someone else you believe in from those same top minutes, just doesn't make sense. I was not suggesting that Peter Harrold is better than Jay Bouwmeester. But Harrold is a third pairing defenseman. You're not going to trade for Bouwmeester and then put him on your third pair of D. So you can't compare them. (if FLorida wants to trade Bouwmeester for Harrold straight up, I'm sure DL would oblige.)

Lastly, you don't trade for Bouwmeester unless you're willing to spend more than half your team payroll on your top six d, because that is what would have to happen when Johnson, Doughty, Quincey, Hickey and Teubert all have to be paid and the scale is set by J-Bo's contract. Even assuming Hickey and Teubert are busts, you're talking about $23-25 million, $30 million if Hickey and Teubert pan out. I don't think that's in the cards.

Quisp, you make perfect sense in all but one line - "I actually think Quincey is going to prove himself to be better than Bouwmeester, as well. But I'll grant you I might be wrong about that." You are usually right Quisp, and you still are right technically, in that you are wrong. I like Quincey A LOT, but he is and never will be the caliber skater and shooter that JayBo is. JayBo skatings skills are in the elite category. There may only be a couple of defensemen who are better skaters, and I'll bet none of them are faster. Quincey could play bottom pairing minutes as I think he can handle a top 4 role but would be fine and effective as a third pairing dman, unlike JayBo, who are right in saying needs top 4 minutes.

JDM -

Let me put it this way about Quincey: he's played, I believe between 20 and 25 regular season NHL games. Right out of the gate he led the Kings in ATOI. He leads all Kings D in points. He is responsible defensively and can play offense. He is smart, aggressive and he's a leader. I did not mean to say that as a pure talent, in terms of raw skills, that he is superior to Bouwmeester, who has always been regarded, as you say, as elite. As you know, I was singing Quincey's praises back in September when it looked like Detroit was going to have to unload a defenseman, and it probably makes me look a little unstable to be canvassing to retire his number after his first week in a Kings uniform. But I'm going to stick by my hope that picking Quincey up on waivers turns out to be the single greatest achievement of DL as Kings GM. Wishful thinking? I suppose that's likely at this point. But let's wait and see.

p.s. Bouwmeester in his first season: 4 goals, 12 assists, plus/minus -29. Quincey, at his current pace, projects to: 7 goals, 27 assists, plus/minus +7.

Again, in many ways they are apples and oranges. But, as crazy as the comparison is, it's not that crazy.

Quisp,

why are you compare stat between an 18 years kid that got draft the same year he in the NHL with a 20+ yrs old kids. another thing why would Kings trade for Bouwmeester when he is unstrict free agenct at the end of the years.

Okay Quisp, you got me. Good points. I don't think it's totally nuts to think that Quincey could have as productive a career as Bouwmeester, because as you say and I completely agree with, Quincey is a really good defenseman and I hope he gets better. Having not followed him his whole career I don't know what his upside is, whether his play is par for the course of the start of great things to come. I still think though that Quincey could be a third pairing guy, albeit an AWESOME third pairing guy... but what's wrong with that?

Matt Ellis is back?? That's great news. I'm sure that will get a collective shrug from most people, but I love this (no longer close to being a) kid and was bummed to see him claimed by Buffalo last month. I see he was getting six minutes a game in Buffalo, which is not enough. Will he be coming immediately to the big club? Things are going to get interesting pretty soon, with Ellis, Clune, Cliche, Lewis, Moulson and Richardson (not to mention Zeiler) all competing for third and fourth line duty.

JDM -

I don't mean to pull you out onto the Quincey-HallofFame limb with me. The branch may well not be able to support our combined weight. I fully acknowledge he may completely crap out. But, I also notice, that of the other defensemen the Kings could have targeted from the Wings, Lilja and Lebda are not playing well, and Stuart, who obviously we wanted last summer, has one point in 11 games, which has to be a disappointment for all concerned.

actually, it was falsey reported apparently...

http://sabres.nhl.com/team/app/?service=page&page=NewsPage&articleid=391306

strange thing to just pop up and be wrong.

Oh, fudge.

Last place is still last place whether you have been scored against less or not.The last time I checked you had to score more goals than your opponents to win,and the only way this happens is to play our under performing scoring forwards together .Sully Brown Kopi anyone? You can dress it anyway you want but results are in the record.

Drew Doughty will be better than Bouwmeester. Don't know how soon, but...

We'll have to see about Jack Johnson. If he could get to Bouwmeester's level I'd be pretty pleased. Can't say for sure that he will.

Rich, anyway you could find out what happened with the Matt Ellis situation?

Ellis on re-entry waivers?

JDM - great tip on a great fight. The left hand came off his belt incredibly fast.

Quisp - I have also been a big fan of Quincey, but I really think DLs gem this season has been the pick up of O’Donnell. He has already had an influence on every D man the Kings have. I'd like to see Quincey watch how O'D puts the puck to a corner where his forwards can get to it first rather than try to force a shot through 4 players. Just a small point, Quincey has played very well.

Drive for show and putt for dough.

I don't really care about the offense right now. Defense wins championships, PERIOD. See Anaheim, Detroit...hell even Carolina and Tampa (to an extent) when they won it. Defense defense defense...offense does nothing but make the idiots happy.

I've said it before, and I will say it again...anyone with any delusions this team this season was doing anything more than LEARNING how to play needs their heads examined. It's a learning season. A growth season...the defense is already well ahead of where I was hoping they would be, and it starts with the forwards.