Do you like the trade?

It’s hard to think of a Kings-related story that has generated as much debate in recent years as this O’Sullivan-Williams trade. I’ve read a lot of the comments — although it’s tough, because there were more than 700 yesterday…wow — and there have been a lot of great points made on both sides. That’s what makes for a good debate.

To be honest, when I first heard about the trade, I ridiculed it. There are still parts of it that don’t make a lot of sense to me. None of them have anything to do with Justin Williams as a player. He’s a two-time 30-goal scorer and a Stanley Cup winner, a guy who theoretically could be entering his prime. He’s a bigger winger who plays the type of game Lombardi and Murray want. Patrick O’Sullivan, for all of his undeniable talents, never really fit here. For that, you can blame Lombardi, Murray or O’Sullivan, or all three of them. It doesn’t change the fact that he never really fit here.

So then, why is there debate about this trade? Because it’s an enormous risk, and the timing of it seems odd. For all of Williams’ talent, he can’t stay on the ice. In the past 12 months, he has had hand, back, knee and Achilles tendon injuries. All in one year. It’s accurate to say that they were largely “fluke” injuries. It’s also accurate to say that Williams had two consecutive seasons in which he played 82 games. But it’s hard to escape the feeling that some guys are just injury-prone, through no fault of their own.

Beyond that, it’s hard to shake the feeling that by trading O’Sullivan and a second-round pick now, the Kings might have left something on the table. Williams might be a strong pick-up, but the Kings need more, and by trading O’Sullivan, they just cashed in on one of their most valuable assets. Might they have been better served by packaging O’Sullivan with a top prospect and a top pick, in order to land a really big fish? Maybe, or maybe I’m really underestimating what Williams will bring to the team when healthy. And perhaps the Kings will be able to fill that bigger void via free agency, or by trading with a team that is desparate to dump salary this summer.

Also, in defense of Williams, he’s also in his first year back after ACL surgery. That’s exactly where Michal Handzus was last year, and it’s well known that an athlete doesn’t resemble his former self until his second season back.

So, there’s no easy answer. With a day to reflect, what do you think?


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  • Ciccarelli

    I voted yes. After getting over the shock of losing likeable player, I feel ok with the deal. It’s a risky move, but will be an upgrade if Williams returns to his form. Williams has been there. O’Sullivan hasn’t, but could. So both teams took risks. Honestly, I was a little disappointed with Sully’s progress this year.

  • Ersberg

    I think I’m starting to see what Dean might be doing here. After reading some particular comments on a different site regarding our trade, I believe Dean may flip Williams with some of our guys, and land bigger fish.

    It’s very possible. Dean may feel we have enough young guys and/or “2nd round” type players to sacrifice the 2nd in getting Williams.

    From there, we can take JW(once healed up)+anonymous roster player(s)/prospect(s)+1st/2nd picks and land a big fish in the off-season.

    Thoughts?

  • Anonymous

    Lombardi can say all he want, but this is payback for POS holding out this summer. Once again, trade a good guy with a future for a once was but won’t be again. They never gave him a chance to succeed this year. He “didn’t fit” because Murray and Lombardi didn’t want him to fit. But I’m supposed to be happy they didn’t raise season ticket prices again, right?

  • voice of reason

    Rich–I really love when you offer your own thoughts on something. You’re a terrific writer, and I enjoy seeing things displayed in a calm and calculated manner.

  • Sisto Maximo

    This was a great trade for the Kings! Justin Williams looks as good if not better than Kopitar and when these two guys get on the line together they will be a terror on the ice! They both skate fast excellent for two on one breakouts and Williams has a rocket launcher of a shot! Wow! Kings are another step closer to a Championship!

  • Rob

    I could be wrong, but wassn’t Nik Antropov the type of player Lombardi and Murray want at a cheaper price?

  • anthony

    I agree with you Rich on some points.
    Especially about trading Sully and others for a big fish. Makes more sence.
    DL is sickly obsessed with acquiring ex-philly players and injured players. I mean sickly obsessed.

    I also agree with you that Sully wasn’t really fitting in well with TM’s system. But so wasn’t Kopi in the beginning.
    And who’s to say SUlly would not picked it up as well.
    His numbers are above average. Not great. But descent.
    And lets not for get that he kills penalties very effectively and always comes back to help out on defense while on even strength.
    These positive qualities cannot be ignored. You got to give credit where ctredit is due.

    Now, maybe with training camp under his belt next season, most likely Sully would cash in with big numbers. Pure talent just doesn’t go away.

    So this was a bad trade.
    You get rid of a talented player for an injured player late in a season when you’re fighting for a playoff spot. THIS SEASON IS OVER NOW.
    Acquiring a player with a bum knee is a huge risk.
    He’s left a conference that plays wide open hockey, to a conference that plays a tight checking hockey.
    And he’s injury prone

    How much more failure must we tolerate.
    How much more will AEG put up with before he’s rightfully fired.

    Thanks Rich.

  • variable

    i’m going to re-post a post i just put on the previous thread….

    sorry for being redundant…but it’s more relevant here:

    with jw coming back in two weeks and probably needing about that much time to get into game shape, we still really won’t get a complete look a jw at full capacity on the kings before the season ends…

    next year will be telling…
    this season is a wash…that has to be considered because even sundin needed about 3-4 weeks to get into game condition…

    after sleeping on it….

    the only tremendous edges sully has is his age and the ability…albeit in a much shorter period of time…to stay healthy…and that’s not small potatoes…good edges to have

    jw brings grit, a ring and a nice overall game…
    in carolina, he played with:
    staal, brind’amour, recchi,cole, weight and sillman in ’05-06 and recorded his career high in points on his way to a cup…his playoff stats were as follows…:
    gm g a pts +/- pims
    25 7 11 18 +12 34

    i really think all of us need to take a deeeeeeeeep breath and wait and see…
    i don’t like that phrase either too much…it’s a bit scary…

    but like so many have mentioned at this point, when healthy, jw IS a better player than POS at this point…can POS be better over time? perhaps…

    but…

    POS needs to have the puck to be effective…many of us have knocked him for going into a coma at times when he’s not w/the puck or participating in a cycle…
    one of POS’s great skills was his play on the PK…jw during his best year had 4 shorthanders and 6pts on the PK…

    for those who expect jw to be a bigger/better hitter…well…
    in ’05-06…the cup year…
    jw had 32 hits in 82 games (yes, he’s capable of playing a full year)…however, jw does score more of the dirty goals which is something we desperately need more of on this team
    comparatively…
    POS had 60 hits in 62 games so far this year….

    what does this all mean…?
    who knows until we see him play about 15-20 games at full speed and health and find out the following things:

    - can he play a more physical game than POS and contribute those “dirty” goals that POS couldn’t?

    - chemistry and his locker room presence…does he click w/kopi or stoll or (UFA/FA)? is he vocal enough?

    - will he still have all the speed in him after sitting out more time time than he’s played?

    and…

    - can he stay healthy?

    high risk/high reward…

    did d.l. take a big gamble? yeah…he did…

    does jw give you more return on yr investment than POS?

    i seriously don’t know…and i think that’s the $64 thous….wait…$3.5 million dollar question…

    d.l. hasn’t put the future on this…so anyone thinking POS was a franchise player…he wasn’t…like he said last night…anyone can be traded…
    gretzky was twice….and he was a generational player…sorry…an once-in-a-lifetime player…

    so d.l….

    the riverboat and the felt tables have met…and you’ve decided to put a fair some of talent and money on the table…this is yr biggest/boldest move since you’ve become gm….

    now yr tupac…all eyez are on you…and yr bet on jw….

    time will tell….

  • http://vanitydesignstudios.com/ ianmonsta

    As much as i liked Sully i like Williams ALOT more, but the truth is it’s too early to tell how this trade will work out and people who hate this trade and are calling for DL’s head right now could be praising him come this time next year when Williams is a 30+ goal scorer or vise versa if Williams doesn’t return to form and continues to be injury prone.

  • PaulCat1969

    I voted yes too. Like all of us I am sure, I like O’Sullivan and he is a player with definite talent but I think he is the type of guy who’s easily replaced. To me there is not much difference between Moller, Purcell and O’Sullivan. Each has strengths and weaknesses but in the end put up number that will mirror one another. Perhaps we are at that stage where we start needing those intangibles. The grit, the experience the grinding on the boards all things that O’Sullivan wouldn’t bring. Yes perhaps the return could have been more or this summer he might have been a better bargaining chip for something else but if we are going to be a playoff team next year now is a good time to get this guy in here and have him acclimate himself to the system and our players.

  • Kevin Y

    It’s hard to vote because we don’t know how Williams can produce when he returns. I don’t think O’Sullivan is gonna be better in EDM than he was here, so I voted yes. But it’s up in the air.

  • Ed

    Rich,

    You took the words right out of my mouth. My sentiments exactly.

    I have reservations with regards to this trade, while sometimes change is good, but accepting the change is often the most difficult.

    The most problem I have with the trade is the second rounder we gave up. When it became necessary to give up that additional second round pick to get the deal done, was there no other team to deal with? Was the old deal still the best option?

    Patty-O by himself, is very different that Patty-O with a second round pick. I felt we could/should have gotten a more proven player.(non-injured/less risk)

    I don’t know WIlliams at all. Have not paid too much attention to the Canes. Only until Williams is able to step on the ice and perform for our Kings, will our doubts be lifted.

  • JazzyJT08

    Do I like the trade? Essentially, no. I don’t SEE the point. You can justify it all you like that Williams is an all-star, 30 pts blah blah blah. But if he can’t stay on the ice then he’s not worth the bread he’s given. That’s all. It doesn’t make sense Carolina only loses 1 player and we lose 2. Williams right now is half of a player, and I can’t understand giving up a healthy Sulli and a 2nd pick for that. Carolina should be putting up the draft pick, not the kings. Why agree to purchase a car that potentially could have problems if you’re not getting a discount? Doesn’t make sense.

    Now I see that Lombardi and Murray clearly didn’t care much for O’Sullivan. Which makes me concerned. This is a business and frankly letting your personal feelings affect the organization sounds like BAD business. Unprofessional. Ok, so O’sullivan held out at the beginning of the season. It’s his right to as a player whose helped the organization to get what he wants. If you didn’t like it Lombardi, should not have bothered at all!

    Now, Williams. Murray seems to really love this guy, like really. He oozed it in that interview. I’m sure Williams is nice and all but he’s 27, and if he’s in his “prime” he should be healthy. Not having the problems of a potentially older player. I’d love for Williams to be a 30 goal scorer and all that, but how do they even know if he’ll fit into the system and be a two way player who back checks? Maybe Williams liked scoring a lot and being an all-star. It’s just a lot to assume that Williams is the savior that O’Sullivan wasn’t. Giving up the 2nd round pick is just plain wrong. But that’s done and done.

    Am I happy with it? No. There’s too much of a potential backfire. Could it work out to the Kings benefit? Perhaps. Why didn’t they get Spezza or anyone else whose healthy and an all star? It’s just silly. Overall bad move, and the season just became a wash to me.

  • mark4kings

    Wow. Majority in favor so far. That’s kind of unexpected given the rhetoric coming from the anti-traders for the past day. It’s been a very good debate over-all, with a few exceptions (Gilligan…oops, I mean Anthony et al)
    It’s a gamble to DL but I personally think it’s gonna pan out for the team,
    BTW Great post Variable.

  • Anonymous

    Too big of a gamble. It may work out but DL gave up too much of his beloved assets to acquire an oft injured player who may or may not be able to regain his previous form. I’m sick of DL taking these risks as, barring Handzus this year, his trades for players with injury histories have not worked out.

  • Ciccarelli

    Ersberg,

    I haven’t read the comments you have, but I doubt that Lombardi would have acquired Williams only to use as trade bait. That is just too risky. But maybe others will become expendable due to the acquisition. I bet there may be quite a bit of interest in Moller (although I’d hate to see him go).

  • Brian

    My vote would be for “I haven’t the slightest idea” if that was an option.

    We want to hope that this works out. We also fear that this may be the first sign that DL doesn’t know how to take the team to the next level, that he can draft and develop, but can’t get a team anywhere near elite status.

  • anthony

    I agree with anonymous.
    DL hates it when anybody disagress with him.
    Because of his contract dispute, they made his time in LA a living hell. They did not want him to succeed.
    Remember when they put him on a line with Harrold and Boyle for 10 games. Try putting Kopitar there and see what little numbers he puts up.
    Frolov will have the same fate as well.

    Finally.
    Accept this and get over it.
    WILLIAMS IS GONNA BE A BUST.
    Whats gonna keep him around is his status as an ex-flyer.
    He’ll be paid a ridiculous amount of money, just like Handzus, Calder, and Gauthier, and will put small numbers, just like those three.
    Thats It.

  • Telos

    There needs to be a middle option. At first I hated the trade, now I understand the trade a little more, but still dislike it; however, if Williams can be that 70 guy with Kopitar and consistently, then obviously it is a different ballgame. This is just one hell of a risk. It is amazing how frugal Dean has been up until this point. Suddenly he comes out of no where and makes a move like this. Hopefully Williams proves him right.

  • voice of reason

    Um, I have a very hard time buying the idea that the Kings are in the thick of the playoff race. Is it possible that they make it? Sure. It is extremely unlikely, and very soon will be statistically impossible.

  • Jon H

    I voted “Yes”.

    When I first heard that O’Sullivan had been traded for Williams, I was surprised, even a little upset. But, after thinking about it for awhile, I am alright with it now.

    This trade comes down to Lombardi being willing to take a risk, a roll of the dice. This trade is definitely a “high risk – high reward” scenario. I like that Lombardi isn’t afraid to take a chance, even if though it’s not a sure thing. I also think that he is willing to accept the blame when things don’t work out as he had hoped. I can respect him for these things, whether I agree or disagree with his decisions.

    I think that Lombardi took a chance on Williams now because he felt he could trade for Williams at a lower price right now. The price may seem too high to some. But, what would the price be next season, if Williams recovered from his injury and returned to his scoring form? It would certainly cost more than O’Sullivan and a 2nd round pick.

  • Anonymous

    Why didn’t they get Spezza? Why didn’t they get Kovalchuk? Why didn’t they get Messier? Why didn’t they get Bin Laden? Holy Crap! Do you realize what or who it would have cost the Kings for one of these headliners? More than most of you would have wanted to part with. POS was dealable and not as costly to the team. JW is not a has-been. He’s had some injury issues but so has Crosby. Does anyone see Pittsburgh fans saying he’s washed up? Let’s face up to the fact that this season is pretty much over but on a whole, this team has made tremendous strides over the last two years. Give JW the summer to get in shape, pick up a couple of F/A in the off season and start next year in better shape than this year. My guess is that the Kings will continue to make progress and make the playoffs.

  • http://jrmuller12@sbcglobal.net NOT IMPRESSED

    Can someone tell me HOW O’Sullivan didn’t fit with the Kings? And if you can, then tell me HOW Frolov and Kopitar do?

  • variable

    as far as the playoffs this year…miracle on ice comes to mind…

    but next year…yes…definitely…

    we should be ready to make a significant run…

    ANTHONY…

    it’s hard to believe that you are still a fan of this team…
    by the amount of yr palatable frustrations and unbelievable resentment towards a myriad of issues, i would have thought you would have borrowed AK47′s gun and head down to the rink and go posta….i’m mean…go staples on the whole team and organization…

    i don’t usually respond to our “beloved” resident malcontent…but yr a lawyer, right? (i’m betting a defense lawyer)…if anybody should be able to have a voice of reason and arbitration, it should be you, no?

    just a thought…

  • moremolecules

    “why didn’t we get spezza”
    “why didn’t we get kovalchuck”

    folks, POS and a 2nd round pick gets you an injured Justin Williams or 3 months of Erik Cole. No more. Patty was traded TWICE yesterday. If his value really was more, then the kings would have received more.

    It’s easy to say that we should have gotten more, but unless you are an NHL GM, there’s really no way to know Patty’s trade value.

    Oh, actually we do know. It’s injured Justin Williams, or UFA to be Erik Cole. It’s not that high.

  • voice of reason

    Anthony,

    DL is a professional. He is not going to hold personal grudges against a player because of how a contract negotiation went.

    When some members of the Brooklyn Dodgers complained about having to play with Jackie Robinson, Leo Durocher responded, “I do not care if the guy is yellow or black, or if he has stripes like a (expletive) zebra. I’m the manager of this team, and I say he plays. What’s more, I say he can make us all rich. And if any of you cannot use the money, I will see that you are all traded.”

    DL is trying to make money, and win a Cup. The idea that he would hold personal grudges against some players, or arbitrarily reward others just because he happens to have known them in the past is INSANE.

  • variable

    if there’s any message to frolov and his agent:

    DON’T BE DIFFICULT IN NEGOTIATING A EXTENSION COME SUMMER IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN A KING!!!!!!!

    cammy…dead…
    sully…dead…

    please don’t make this list…!

  • voice of reason

    P.S. I’ve noticed there’s now a “The Voice of Reason” posting comments? What’s up with that? Is there room for two glass-half-full, sanctimonious posters? Let’s hope so.

  • variable

    sorry…voice of reason…

    i forgot that’s yr handle…

    so anthony…i guess yr off the hook…and yr off the hook, too…we already have a voice of reason…

    flame on…flame on…

  • Rob

    Anthony, Has your sky trully fallen or are you just once again spouting off with your entirely baseless claims. You will be 1st in line to drop to your knees for DL if Williams is the player next year they expect him to be.

  • moremolecules

    Voice of Reason raises a great point. You don’t get to be a NHL GM, or, in other words, a high level manager of a multi-million dollar company and act on (perceived) grudges.

    Also, this philly love thing is sort of silly. Do you really think DL is trying to get all his old buddies jobs? Maybe his time in PHI showed him things about that organ-eye-zation that he really likes. Don’t look now, but Philly is doing ok these days, and have developed some nice players. It’s not like he’s an ex-con hiring a bunch of his prison mates on parole…

  • Anonymous

    Sully for Williams straight up i didnt mind..seeing Sully underachieve this year and Williams a known talent… but then i heard we gave up a 2nd round which kinda spoiled the deal… i dont agree with the trade.. i hope and pray Williams stays healthy and proves to be a as solid as DL and Murray say..

    Sully was actually my favorite player on the Kings :(

  • Mike

    Yeah I’m also really surprised with how many of you back this trade. I think the bottom line is that we gave up too much. Sure I like Williams and I’m excited to see what he can bring. But we could have got a similar return for just picks and/or prospects as evidence by some of the other moves made yesterday (Antropov for a 2nd for example). I am really curious as to why DL and TM wanted to get rid of Sully, which is what this looks like to me. And I’m not buying this bit about how he doesnt go hard into the boards, because he obviously has other skills like cycling the puck and playing on the PK which are still valuable to the team. Sometime to me it looks like TM and DL are not playing to this teams strengths, and are instead trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. We want to be like Philly, big and punishing, but we have a team that’s best when using its speed, skill, and creativity. I guess to me the problem is with the managements philosophy of what type of player they seem to want on this team. This whole thing about “fit” erks me for this very reason. It is not that the player doesn’t fit with the team, but rather with the managements philosophy, whether right or wrong.

  • variable

    i guess i’m pulling a steve morris, here…”rachel…i’m confused?”

    do we now have 2 “voice of reason” handles/posters?

    in that case…just to be safe…apologies to both….

    now…will the second “voice of reason” change their handle so that the original “voice of reason” doesn’t get upset and we don’t get confused…is that reasonable?

    capice?

  • Cynic

    When the hell are we gonna hear from Williams about this trade?

    I’ve heard lots from Sully and Eric Cole, what about JW?!?!

    What’s the holdup?

  • eric

    I like the trade. Anytime you have an opportunity to trade a small, wimpy, pre-madonna player like POS, do it! I think Justin Williams is going to be a nice fit; however, I would have rather traded POS, Frolov, and maybe Moller for a player like Lecavlier or similar. If that could not be worked out, maybe trade POS straight up for Carcillo… We could use a lot more toughness, and a middle weight like carcillo would be very nice playing on the third line with Ivanans on the fourth!

  • JonG

    The shock is starting to wear off for me too, although I still don’t understand the move. I really don’t know Justin Williams at all, so I’m looking forward to seeing him play.

    Regardless of what we gave up for him, I welcome Williams to the team. By joining the Kings he automatically becomes on of my favorite players in the league.

  • RealDrew

    I think Williams could bring some things to the Kings that Sully did not. After checking out some Carolina reactions to the trade, it’s pretty obvious that Williams was very much liked by everbody. The most common compliment given to Williams was in relation to his work ethic. I like that the Kings will have another gritty hardnosed player on the team.

    I’m optimistic that Williams will be able to provide a spark to the Kings that Sully wasn’t able to.

    It hard to judge this trade at the moment. If Sully doesn’t make any more progress then I think the Kings made a good move. If Williams can stay healthy while bringing a physical gritty 20-30 goals every year, I like this trade.

    I wish Sully all the luck in Edmonton and beyond.

  • Crash Davis

    I voted in favor of the trade. Yes, high risk/high reward is right. There’s a time to be conservative and a time to bet and throw some cards on the table. This was a time DL gambled.

    As for the 2nd round pick given up, why the lament? These are chips meant to keep or trade. So we have 13 picks instead of 14. Big deal. And we still have a 2nd round pick of our own, not the one from Calgary for Conroy that just got flipped. And a 2nd round pick might not make the team for 3-4 years, if ever. Nothing is for certain. And I find it hard to believe that JW will be part of a trade this summer. DL & TM know this guy pretty well from Philly. He fits one of their boxes, for sure. Sully fits someone (The Oilers) else’s box now in the Great White North. Brrrr.

    Lastly, I have to wonder how many of JW’s recent injuries were due to his coming back from a torn ACL? Maybe he was favoring his leg and injured himself elsewhere. Am sure Handzus could weigh in on that issue.

  • TeamHasHoles

    You’re all fixated on the wrong aspects of this. Two things you all need to take into consideration.

    1) In trading for a “good size fish” (which Williams clearly is), DL has put on the turn signal while driving the car we’re riding through this “rebuild.” Something most people have been waiting for for quite a while. A sign that the GM says, we’re going for the next level. This trade sends a message to the players and the fans that we’re going to stop settling for “maybe making the playoffs” probably as early as next season.

    2) The recent play and attitude of Teddy Purcell and Oscar Moller made a talented guy like Patrick O’Sullivan expendable. And for that you all should be very happy, especially with all the cap space the Kings still have regardless of where the cap is next season (This deal only added about $600k to the Kings cap).

    As much as I like O’Sullivan’s talent, his hold out clearly showed that the Kings logo wasn’t exactly tattooed on his butt, as Lombardi has clearly stated he wants to see from his players if they want to stay here and win. I don’t think he got traded because of THAT, I don’t think he was traded as retribution for his holdout but clearly the holdout hurt him on the ice and off the ice in the eyes of his bosses.

    The contract issues was the symptom of a larger problem with him (and Cammalleri for that matter) and this trade is a clear message to players like JMFJ and Frolov in relation to their commitment to this franchise.

    Remember, Lombardi wants to pay these guys what they’re worth, but they’re not worth as much so long as this team continues to struggle, not matter how well they played during a poor season for the team.

    Lombardi’s message is clear. Commit to this franchise! Become an important part of a winner, without contract acrimony, and when this team does become a winner, you’ll be in the driver’s seat when it comes to dollars in your next deal whether it’s with the Kings or your next team.

    I just hope we get to see the best of a healthy Justin Williams.

  • PaulCat1969

    Anthony and Anonymous…

    You guys are clueless, honestly. You say DL’s trades for injured players haven’t worked out, barring Handzus. Did you honestly see Thorton, Bure, McCauley has long term additions to this team? Those were merely “bridge” players until guys like Moller and Purcell and O’Sullivan were ready to take on their roles. When they did, they were gone and Handzus has gone on to be a vital piece of this team’s progress.
    I am certain last year you were whining about how horrible the Handzus signing was and I am even more certain that you feel he is one of our better players now.

    When healthy, Williams is very much like a Ryan Smyth type player (look at their numbers for full seasons). They crash the net, play tough and get the goals O’Sullivan will never score. It was not that long ago that O’Sullivan was sent down to Manchester. Why? Because he did not want to play with grit and get the ugly goals you need to get to win in this league.

    Finally, I am pretty sure if this trade was for an injured Gaborik rather than an injured Williams you both would be saying what a great trade this was and how awesome we would be next year. Again look a the numbers. Gaborik has played only 6 games this year. He’s only had one season with more than 70 points and has just as discouraging history with injuries.

    So before you start calling out Lombardi and start criticizing for no reason other than to justify your own senility let see what happens and then determine if this trade is a bust or not.

  • TorturedKingsFan

    Here’s what I really don’t understand…

    Who were the desperate teams here??!! Edmonton and Carolina are fighting for the playoffs and needed our involvement to get the players they wanted, not the other way around.

    If you’re telling me the best DL could do dealing with TWO teams fighting for the playoffs was take a 20-goal scorer (yes Sully’s numbers are down this year but so are everyones) and a 2nd round pick and trade it for an injured player, who hopefully returns to form next year, then I seriously question his negotiating prowess.

    DL may have a great eye for up-and-coming talent at the junior/minor league level but so far his ability to acquire “proven” NHL talent is suspect – I won’t rehash the prior years UFA signings.

  • Neva

    I have no idea how this trade will workout, that’s the one thing I do know, only time will tell, and any trade is a risk for both parties……obviously.

    But the one thing I find strange is how anyone knows what DL, TM or POS is actually thinking. Sure you can guess from their interviews and more than likely they will never give the intimate details. But does anyone really think that DL and TM wanted POS to fail?

    That’s just crazy talk :)

    Here’s hoping we come out better with this trade.

  • AK47

    You guys are all nuts.. Honestly, relax for a second and take a deep breathe.. Cool of your tongues for a little..

    Dean Lombardi KNOWS what he’s doing.. O’Sullivan is a remarkable player, and he’ll do very well in Edmonton.. But does he have NHL playoff experience? NO.. Barely anyone on our offense does.. I think if Kyle Calder would have done better this year, and become a leader in the locker room, this deal wouldn’t have been made.. As much as I hate the piece of sh*t (Calder), he has playoff experience.. Justin Williams has a Stanley Cup ring at 27 years old.. He played along side Eric Staal. His resume is pretty hefty. How do we know Patrick O’Sullivan won’t go down anytime soon? It’s a risky deal, but to be successful in this business, you have to make risky moves.. If they don’t work out, you lose your job, but if they do work out, you’re a genius.. The only thing that angers me is that 2nd rounder.. I would’ve been so angry if Edmonton had kept that 2nd rounder, but thank the Gods Buffalo ends up with it, even though it’s originally Calgary’s pick.. Any pick can turn out to be a superstar, and just because Dean dealt that pick away, I’m going to keep a close eye on it..

    Now that this discussion is over with, let’s talk a little bit more about what we should do this off-season. I’ve already said this, and I’ll say it again.. We’re only a couple players away from becoming a serious contender. We need another 1st line winger and maybe a 2nd line center. We also need another big name defenseman, and hopefully by next year Jon Quick will emerge as a top goaltender, stealing games the way he’s been doing it all year long for us.. In the previous post I noted all the potential restricted free agents out there, and the fact that we should go after one of them.. The top guys on my list would be..

    1) Ryan Callahan (NYR), 5’11″, 185 pounds, LW. 23 years of age, 14 goals and 10 assists in 63 games. He played a year with Dustin Brown in 2002-2003 in Guelph and played a year with Drew Doughty in Guelph..

    We can make a serious at this kid, and the Rangers will have a hard time matching our offer sheet..

    Frolov-Kopitar-Williams
    Callahan-Stoll-Brown
    Purcell-Moller-Lewis
    Richardson-Handzus-Simmonds

    2) Travis Zajac (NJD), 6’2″, 200 lbs, C. 23 years of age, 18 goals, 36 assists in 64 games.

    Frolov-Kopitar-Williams
    Purcell-Zajac-Brown
    Moller-Stoll-Lewis
    Richardson-Handzus-Simmonds

    3) Drew Stafford (BUF), 6’2″, 202 lbs, Winger. 23 years of age, 17 goals and 22 assists in 61 games.

    Frolov-Kopitar-Williams
    Stafford-Stoll-Brown
    Purcell-Moller-Lewis
    Richardson-Handzus-Simmonds

    4) Matt D’Agostini (MTL), 6’0″, 201 lbs, Winger. 22 years of age, 10 goals and 7 assists in 42 games. Natural born scorer, lots of potential.. Not enough playing time in Montreal.

    Frolov-Kopitar-Williams
    D’Agostini-Stoll-Brown
    Purcell-Moller-Lewis
    Richardson-Handzus-Simmonds

    5) Phil Kessel (BOS)

    Frolov-Kopitar-Kessel
    Williams-Stoll-Brown
    Purcell-Moller-Lewis
    Richardson-Handzus-Simmonds

    There are plenty of UFA’s too, like Gaborik, Havlat, Hossa, Franzen..

    On D, there’s Alex Goglioski who’s a RFA.. Would fit very nicely in our D.

    And there’s Mike Komisarek, who would just be beauty of a pickup..

    Doughty-Johnson
    Komisarek-Quincey
    Harrold-Greene
    O’Donnell

    OR

    Doughty-Johnson
    Quincey-Goglioski
    Harrold-Greene
    O’Donnell

    What do you guys think?
    Callahan or Zajac make the most sense

    and on D, Komisarek would be a perfect fit..

    Do we make an offer sheet to any of these young kids or no?

    David Booth (FLA)
    Matt D’Agostini (MTL)
    Kyle Chipchura (MTL)
    Phil Kessel (BOS)
    Ryan Callahan (NYR)
    Brandon Dubinsky (NYR)
    Travis Zajac (NJD)
    Drew Stafford (BUF)
    Rob Schremp (EDM)

    Alex Goglioski (PIT)

    It’ll be hard for teams that have no cap space to match DL’s offer..

  • Crash Davis

    Cynic,

    Why no one has heard from JW? Bet you that he was packing his bags and grabbing a flight to LAX in last 24 hours. He’s busy moving 3000 miles. Probably hear from him today or tomorrow at latest.

    Knowing Rich, he’ll have an interview posted from El Segundo w/ JW by tonight here on this board. Or tomorrow at latest.

  • Beavis

    @many of you
    If POS is your favorite King then you’re not much of a Hockey Fan, that’s like Juan Pierre being a Dodger fan’s favorite

  • afx114

    Wow, the poll is split straight down the middle, 50/50 after 520+ votes. The fact of the matter is that we won’t know until both guys put in some time with their new teams.

    How did the poll of the Visnovsky trade look the day after? How would it look today? In many respects, polls such as this are useless. A poll a year from now would be much more informative.

  • Quisp

    re “we gave up too much” -

    We didn’t give up too much if Lombardi and Murray don’t think POS has what they need. I love Patrick, really; it makes me sad to see him go. But that’s because I liked flashes of what I saw, and I was looking forward to his potential. I know a lot about hockey, but I have to assume I know nothing compared to life-long professionals who are actually in the trenches. I have to assume they are seeing something we aren’t. As someone out there said, “this is a trade of one talented but frustrating forward [POS] for another one [Williams, because of the injury bug].”

    And let’s not forget, everyone, that POS is someone that DL and DL alone went out and got because he believed in this kid when everyone else was scared of him because he was damaged goods. And people said then, WHAT? PATRICK O’SULLIVAN?? Not to mention what they (and some on this board) said over the years about picking Trevor Lewis, the other half of that trade.

    Last but not least: Moller, Simmonds, Purcell, Lewis. If not for these players, this trade wouldn’t have happened. I’m guessing DL feels comfortable with these kids assuming the mantle. It’s not just Williams; it’s Williams plus what Moller et al can do. When you sign the big contract, you had better play like you deserve it.

  • JS

    I voted with a resounding no!

    Unlike a lot of people on this blog, I am a season ticket holder. I bought into the idea of building a team from within. I bought into the idea of a few years of pain so that eventually a group of kids could grow into a team that would eventually make the playoffs and contend for a cup. And I enjoy the process. I enjoy spending my money to watch a non-playoff team (for the moment) go through their bumps and bruises on becoming a great team. I would sit in an hour to an hour and a half in traffic and pay more money to park just to watch a group of young core players struggle on their way to be contenders. Up until yesterday, Sully WAS one of those players. Sorry to say but money talks and Sully was one of my favorite players to watch over the past two seasons. And now we have the old Kings all over again. Give up on a good young player for an older established player so we can watch the good young player become a star for someone else. So to all the armchair warriors who spend their nights flipping through all the games instead of getting off their asses and actually going to the games and supporting a good young team, save the sales job for someone else. It was a bad trade!!!

  • gralx

    I still voted no. I am not as ballistic today as I was yesterday. But, now with a clear head, here are my objections.

    1) We are still close enough that had we added instead of subtracted, we just might have been able to make that run to the playoffs for the first time in years. I know, 1 and done right? It’s more than we the fans have had in a long time. Also, we could have added offense for the remainder of the year without giving up anything but cash (Morrison and Satan).

    2) Why now? We were all being understanding about holding pat. We as fans always want it now. But, we were ok with waiting until next year for the moves. The second round pick and Sully still would have been tradable assets after the season. For the remainder of this season, we got worse, not better. There are plenty of JW type players out there, we overpaid. Antropov could have been had for one of the seconds + one of our numerous late round picks this year and still had Sully on the team now. (and available as a tradable asset after the season)

    3) DL can spin this anyway he wants. But, this is still a huge gamble on a guy that has not been healthy and has not produced for 3 years.

    The upside as I see it is Jason Allison when he was healthy. The downside is Jason Allison when he wasn’t so healthy.

  • anthony

    Jason Williams is having a terrible seasom thus far.
    10 points in 32 games.
    He’s a minus -10.
    51% of you guys – I don’t know about.
    Repeat after me
    BUST

  • AK47

    Ah Quisp, well done..

    Read my post and tell me what you think big guy, please

  • LB

    Rich, did Lombardi mention anything about how O’Sullivan fell out of the “core” group so quickly? Up until recently he was mentioned time and again by Lombardi as one of the “core” guys and then bam, he’s gone. There has to be more to this story. Otherwise, how are all the other “core” guys supposed to feel?

  • PaulCat1969

    Nice post AK…I love your list. I am sure you are aware of this but any offers made to players of those qualities are going to cost picks and more than likely 1 or potentially two first rounders depending on the contract offer. Here is how it breaks down:

    OFFER COMPENSATION
    $551,076 or below None
    Over $551,076 – $757,729 Third-round choice
    Over $757,729 – $895,498 Second-round choice
    Over $895,498 – $1,102,152 First-round choice
    Over $1,102,152 – $1,377,689 First-and third-round choices
    Over $1,377,689 – $1,653,227 First-and second-round choices
    Over $1,653,227 – $1,928,765 Two first-round choices
    Over $1,928,765 – $2,342,071 Two first-round and one second-round choice
    Over $2,342,071 Three first-round choices
    Each additional $1,377,689 One additional first-round choice to a maximum of five

    You can bet a a guy like Zajac will command more than 2.3 million and I doubt dean will give three 1st round picks for him.

  • AK47

    Thanks PaulCat..

    Of course I knew about the list, but I’m thinking the Rangers won’t be able to afford Ryan Callahan so much money, we should go after him..

  • EAT THE RICH

    When you sign the big contract, you had better play like you deserve it.

    Are you kidding? Calder, Preissing, Gauthier, Handzus. How much do these underachievers make combined?
    Answer: About 12 million dollars this season alone.
    Stoll and Greene? Over 6 million.
    18 million dollars for what?

    The PA announcers in Los Angeles really need to stop introducing the team as “YOUR los angeles Kings.”

  • Irish Pat

    I’ve given this trade a lot of thought and there are a few things that bug me including what Rich has pointed out:

    If Williams plays all 82 games the next 2 seasons and scores 30 goals in each of them it still feels like the Kings are putting aside the development of their kids for this guy. Think about where Purcell, Moller and Simmonds fit in. If you’re going to bring in a veteran to play top line minutes, why this guy? I get that he brings intangibles that O’Sullivan just doesn’t have, but he isn’t an upgrade in the sense that he isn’t essentially an improvement over what we COULD possibly already have in one of the aforementioned kids. I’m not saying the Kings should have traded POS for another kid with potential, but if the Kings are going to trade for a guy in his prime, why not upgrade the productivity as well as the character? We got Williams and that’s great, but so what? Sully got traded, boo-hoo and wah, but so what? I’m not shocked O’Sullivan got traded- it’s what little we got back that surprises me. I thought Lombardi would have held this chip a little longer until he was able to make a better deal. By trading for Williams a part of me perceives that the youth movement is at its nadir and that Lombardi will bring in more veterans now to help fill the boxes as soon as possible. That’s fine with me if DL thinks this team is ready to compete for a playoff spot next season, but trading for a guy that has a history of injuries and is not a significant upgrade in productivity for the guy we traded away reeks of Kings moves of years past. I’m not elated nor am I unhappy- I feel indifferent and a looming sense of ennui when I think of this move made by Lombardi. It just seems like a move made by an organization that is spinning their wheels, which is something I didn’t perceive the Kings doing this last year or so. DL acquired prospects and picks and now all of a sudden, voila, this… it just seems so Sam McMaster in execution. I hope Lombardi’s right. I sincerely do.

  • variable

    ak47….

    i personally don’t like the offer/counter offer sheet way of doing business…

    most gm’s don’t like it and it does tend to overpay players and create animosity between teams…which doesn’t bode well in future negotiations…

    having looked at yr list (thanks for doing it):

    i like zajac, stafford and kessel…

    however, it’s HIGHLY UNLIKELY that those players will be let go w/out attempts to keep them by their respective teams….

    honestly, kovy is the best option for this team…

    if d.l. can put together an impressive package in the off season (and i don’t mean our garbage or castaway’s)for him, i think atlanta would be willing to part with him….how about bryan little? he’s impressive, too

    the other player i would seriously go after in a trade attempt is zajac’s teammate, zach parise…

    he’s unlikely to go anywher come ’10-11, too…

    but just like kovy, i would love for d.l. to make a strong push to get a player like him…he’s the complete package…which is soooo much better to have than just a “sniper” (no complaints w/one, though)…

    again…the upcoming draft day is going to be crazy fierce…i expect tons of activity this year…

    and don’t forget our training camp next season…

    we might already have that sniper player waiting in the wings…and what’s better than home grown talent coming into fruition?

    not much…

  • AK47

    OK, that didn’t make sense..

    what I mean to say is..

    They won’t be able to give Ryan Callahan lots of money because of their tight cap space, so we should hop on the situation.

    My apologies

  • Duckhunter

    I love shake ups!!!!!!

    I’m one who doesn’t necessarily agree with the fact he was moved because of contract disputes.

    Last year and through the summer there was no bigger fan of O’Sull than me. To be frank, O’Sull is/was not even close to being the same player he was last year. He simply was not getting the job done, therefor, he was shipped out for a player who can bring certain elements to this team we lack.

    The timing shocked me. I thought they would give him to the end of the year to make some adjustments, then ship him out before the draft, if he failed in making improvements.

    Don’t know enough about JW to say yay or nay. Like all of you the injury situation concerns me, but if DL is willing to stick his neck out like this, there has to be something to it, so I’ll go along for the ride on this one.

    I think this is exciting. I’ll bet any of you a Girl scout cookie we win tonight. Watch how much energy the Kings come out with tonight.

    DL will make another move at the draft that going to make everybody smile. I think we’re all going to enjoy this ride when it’s over.

    I just want to say, I’m on board here with DL. Of course JW working out has huge importance to the equation. If he doesn’t work out….oh boy!

    As far as the bet goes, I have one box with 15 cookies inside, so I can only take 15 bets. They are the peanut butter type, so eating all 15 in one sitting would be torture, but I think I’m up to it.

  • OCKINGFAN

    After reading that rich i like the trade a little less

  • RealDrew

    @JS,

    I respect that you support my beloved Kings. I appreciate that you sacrifice your money and time to watch this team grow. I wish I could see more Kings games but unfortunately, I am only able to go to Kings games three times this year.

    With that said, I think your comment sounded a little arrogant. Just because you are a season ticket holder doesn’t mean your opinion is more valid then someone else’s. You have every right to be upset about this trade, if that’s your opinon. All I ask is that you don’t marginalize those with opinions that disagree with you just because you have season tickets and sit in traffic.

  • txkingsfan

    sully’s response to the trade:

    http://oilers.nhl.com/team/app/?service=page&page=PodcastPlayer&pid=98&iid=12481

    classy response. good kid. I wish him the best and please remember that no matter what profession you have(plumber, attorney, student, journalist), or what stage in life you are in, there will always be changes an challenges in your life – its how we face them and deal with them that defines us. Sully has the opportunity to take this change and use it to his benefit. so do the kings.

  • The Voice Of Reason

    Okay, since voice of reason was posting here under that handle first, this is my last post as The Voice Of Reason. I was not aware there was a previously existing “voice of reason” and it’s clear you were here first. Apologies for any confuson I caused. (My choosing that handle was just a spur-of-the-moment decision.)I’ll be back with a new handle sometime soon.

    eric: it’s “prima donna”, not “pre-madonna”. The former comes from the Italian language, while the latter describes the world prior to a certain Italian-American’s ascent to stardom in 1983.

  • Ersberg

    Even after all of these posts, and thinking about it after lunch..

    I still see him getting flipped.

    Ciccarelli-

    I completely agree with you in terms of the risk, but we took the risk and he’s still injured! From my point of view, I think that was the idea all along.

    1) Dean doesn’t think were in the playoffs, so what does it hurt? It doesn’t, since he’s not playing with us, right?

    2) We had to trade Sully while he had some value. I.e a playoff contending team.

    3) We had to aquire JW while his value is low, correct?

    4) JW is proven winner, goal scorer, and leader. He fits here, but he’d fit in with a lot of teams(teams on the rise or playoff contending).

    5) Even if Dean can’t flip in the off-season, which I stil think is very possible, we keep him.

  • voice of reason

    The Voice of Reason–I’m just messing around, friend. Pick whatever handle you like. Maybe I’ll switch to “The Poster Formerly Known as voice of reason.” POW!

  • Quisp

    I think the idea that DL is going to flip Williams is just a way for people to keep their “here comes Kovalchuk” dreams alive. I don’t see that happening. For one thing, in order for that to make sense, you would have to believe that Williams’ stock will be higher in the summer than it is now, but it won’t be. He’ll still have the injury question mark next to his name, until he gets through next season without an injury. For the “flip Williams” scenario to make sense, you would have to believe that he couldn’t use POS and the 2nd pick as usefully as he could use Williams. I don’t believe that. The fact that he threw the second round pick in there tells me Dean wanted this guy. Come on, folks. It’s a draft pick. We know how Dean loves his picks.

    DL is saying, in no uncertain terms, this guy will be better for the Kings than the guy we traded. No matter how well POS does next year in EDM, we will be able to tell whether DL was right or wrong by how well the Kings offense does next season with Williams in the mix. It will be very easy to settle this debate, a year from now. Before that, it’s an open question.

    But I’m happy to have Moller et al to watch in the meantime. That’s a good silver lining.

    Also, let’s not forget, we’ve got 19 games left to enjoy. It might not be entirely as waste of everyone’s time. Maybe we’ll win 14 of these games. Two streaks of 7-2. Eh. Probably won’t happen. But it could.

  • Anonymous

    Ciccarelli – you see Sully’s value going down in the next few weeks???

    Of three three teams involved only one didn’t received immediate help and took on the risk of the player not returning to form.

    And if you guys think we can get MORE by flipping a guy with injury history, who played only a few games this year, and is two years removed from his last 30-goal year than Sully and a 2nd-rounder you need to get your collective heads examined.

  • JS

    @Real Drew

    I apologize if I sounded arrogant, but it wasn’t the point I was trying make. Here it is. Why have I been sold on the fact that I should pay money for the last couple seasons not for what these kids are now, but what they could become???? Why is everyone giving a sales job on an often injured player who I can cheer for when they announce that he’s on the IR before the game over a kid who’s already given us half his teeth on the PK, struggled through two very difficult seasons on a young and not very good team, has played on a line with just about every player this season (including half of the manchester monarchs) while trying to learn a new system (it took Kopi quite awhile to adjust as well) without a training camp and is given up on because he struggled his sophomore season??? Is there any reason to believe in anything that comes out of DL’s mouth???? Whether or not Justin Williams is a good player has nothing to do with the reason I’m upset at this trade.

  • Ziggy

    A couple of things on this trade.

    1. The Kings are not going to make the playoffs barring a miracle performance, given their recent slide, tough remaining opponents, and grinding schedule. Playoffs are great, but is the 6, 7, or 8 seed and a 4-0 sweep to DET SJ or CAL really worth breaking the bank? IMO no. So if the guys get some bounces and sneak in great but im not holding my breath.

    2. The Kings have 14! picks in this year’s draft. Combined with an already strong farm system (thanks DL), there just may not be a ton of room in the system. The pick is gonna be a bottom 5 pick in the 2nd round anyway so its not like its gold. Didn’t that pick travel through 4 teams in the span of an hour? Says something about its value.

    3. Antropov is trash. Its a credit to Burke for motivating that bum to play decent enough to garner a 2nd. Antropov has none of the intangibles of JW (no playoffs, rings, 30 goal seasons)

    4. JW was only available at this price bc he got hurt at a crucial time during the season. Cole was only available bc he wasn’t producing at the rate expected of him. DL was under no such pressure. This should bode well for the Kings in this deal.

    5. POS was playing on the THIRD line in the past couple of games. You cannot tell me that a third line guy is key to a playoff push. We have Oscar and Purcell who are not a significant downgrade right now. Why not let them play under a pressure situation. If POS and KOPI had amazing chemistry this trade never would have happened.

    6. I go back and forth on POS. He had moments of greatness. But then he always blindly spun and shot the puck on net leading to a turnover. That happened at least once a game was unbelievably frustrating. I actually yell at my computer (live in DC now but watch almost every game on NHL centerice). Why didn’t anyone tell him to get rid of that terrible habit! Seriously!?!!

    7.The Kings are missing a sniper but it seems they keep trading away potential snipers (Cammy POS). Why? I actually have no idea. Maybe DL wants a better/proven one?

    8. The Kings have a system and a defining ethos. Those two things are clearly in development but POS just didn’t fit them. He should have better luck/success in a different atmosphere. EDM, who plays a faster style may actually be great for him.

    9.JW has no long term injury concerns. Injuries are flukes. How can you predict when a guy is gonna tear an ACL? Is it genetic? A result of training and strength? I personally don’t like the tag of injury-prone because I think it is vastly over hyped.

    10. I doubt many read this far, but thanks to those who did. Let me know what you guys think.

  • Anonymous

    Fox Sports called it the “Best long-term acquisition.”

    http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/pgStory?contentId=9297032&MSNHPHMA#sport=NHL&photo=9296342

  • Ersberg

    Quisp-

    1) I got the fuel for the “flip JW” from http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/24099-Screen-Shots-Grading-each-team-at-the-trade-deadline.html
    under the portion where our trade was reviewed.

    2) a healthy player is always more valuable than a guy on IR or in any sport for that matter.

    3) Dean likes picks, yes, but what’s he ultimately after here? A particular box to be filled? Come on, an injury-prone ex-goal scorer?

    4) Cap space would be tough to come by if he kept this guy, signed JJ, Fro, plus all the raises kicking in, plus the cap possibly going down.

    5) He mentioned in his interviews he’s looking at other options as well. Please, how the hell is going to sign another goal scorer, possibly better than this guy, and still pay for him? He can’t if it’s a UFA, so he’d have to trade. Do you think he’s going to offer up Brown, Kopi, Drew, JJ, or Fro? I doubt it…….unless he has another experienced goal scorer already signed(cough, JW).

    6) Who cares about Sully and the 2nd’s value? It’ll have no bearing on this trade, other than we won’t have Sully and the pick to use in the trade.

    The only thing important about Sully+2nd was to aquire JW.

    Sure, we could keep him, but I would bet dollars to donuts that he has the flip option as a “plan A” or “plan B” option.

  • wavesinair

    If patio smiled more (like oscar) he’d still be a King ;)

    Does JW smile a lot?

    Smile.

  • nykingfan

    I voted yes, but I do so with much trepidation.
    Until DL gives me reason to doubt him, I will continue to support his moves as long as I continue to see the team improve.

    I would have thought Sully would have brought us back more, but maybe we over-valued him. Either that or we’re all under-valuing Williams.

    All I can say definitively is I hope this move works out best for the Kings, like every move they make.
    I would like to see what the results of this poll are by the middle of next season.

  • Ersberg

    Anonymous-

    Didn’t we just complete a 3-way deal for JW? If you’re logic is correct, are you saying Sully’s value was lower once he get to Carolina, then was flipped to Edmonton?

    I didn’t think so.

    Who cares if he’s injured now. How will his value go down? Because he’s on a different team STILL INJURED? No, his value is set, regardless of what roster he’s listed on.

  • wavesinair

    by the way, that hockey news trade analysis is completely retarded.

    our salary cap issues?????

  • laikaloco

    IMO, Williams’ ACL injury was THE main reason Carolina went down the drain after their Cup victory. He was an absolute beast in the playoffs in ’06, and I expect that he’ll show the same type game when he’s healthy next season.

    Like Rich, I think Sully’s POTENTIAL (and I still think Sully will become a good NHL scorer, and the Kings will get the credit for making him a good hockey player) was one of the chips we had to deal for a game-breaking scorer, but we needed Williams’ willingness to go to the net and get dirty goals more…I think we throw money at a sniper this summer. And Williams also has an “A” quality shot.

    And I’ll even agree (partially, anyway) with Anthony. There is no discounting the ex-Flyer connection with Williams. I know for a fact that the Flyers consider dealing Williams to the Canes to have been a HUGE mistake (I live in Philly, y’see), so everyone in the hockey decision making group is very familiar with what Williams brings.

    Sorry if I’m redundant on anyone else’s post, but I’m writing this before reading the bulk of them…

  • RB from Torrance

    Even after taking a day and doing some research, I still don’t like the trade.

    Many of you say that Sully didn’t fit into the system. Can someone please explain to me what the system consists of? Seeing offensive players bunch up when in the offensive zone reminds me of pee-wee hockey. I see every home game as a season ticket holder and I don’t see the quality of offensive strategy that perennial playoff teams exhibit. The only strategy I’ve seen on offense is the propensity to alter the lines until something clicks. This is not coaching genius!

    If Justin Williams has upside then I miss the argument about how his upside is greater than Sully’s. As of the end of this season, Sully will have done in 3 seasons what it took Williams to do in 4. None of us have crystal balls, but as a betting man, I’m betting on the one not recovering from two major ice skating injuries (ACL and Achilles-Tendon).

    Having said that, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that I like Handzus. He’s still not capable of scoring 30 goals and may never be, but he’s still a very useful player. He is the greatest netminder screen I’ve seen in a while. If Murray could figure this out and pair him with some shooting defensemen from the point, I might concede that he’s capable of a little offensive strategy. Handzus also has a keen eye for distribution on transitions from defense to offense. If only we’d stop bunching up and create some passing lanes by opening up to space instead of skating right at defenders.

    Those of you who KNOW that DL KNOWs what he is doing have missed the fact that his previous team is now doing significantly better since he left. This is the first major disagreement I’ve had with his plan thus far and he still get’s the benefit of the doubt with me. However, I’m still not going to suggest that anyone ever truly KNOWS what they are doing. Luck plays some part in a GM’s role. The Pens are a great example whereas even the strongest teams can turn overnight.

  • Anonymous

    Seriously… you don’t trade for a guy who hasn’t played most of the year and even THINK about trying to flip him for draft picks – ONE OF WHICH YOU TRADED AWAY TO GET HIM!!!!!

    It would be like buying a fixer-upper, throw parties in it for a few weeks, then attempt to sell it a month later.

  • stang

    This trade is the proverbial white flag that signifies the playoff run is over. DL needed to show confidence in the team by acquiring a guy who can play now and help push them over the top while adding a pressence to the locker room. That would’ve been ideal.

    I find it funny people think O’Sullivan had an attitude problem. REALLY?! Says who? Some make him sound like he’s the next coming of Sean Avery. It seems the guy was well liked by his peers. If DL/TM had a problem with him maybe they need to look in the mirror and/or grow some thicker skin.

    If O’Sullivan was having a bad season name one guy that was having a good one! I see nothing but underachievers up and down this roster at this moment and I attribute that to learning a new system. How about cutting the guys some slack DL/TM while the new system sinks in as we see it’s starting to.

    O’Sullivan was a +3 in a system he didn’t fit into?! Kopitar is a -17?! I wonder what O’Sullivan will do in a system he’s comfortable with.

    I don’t like the trade at all and this new guy Justin “IR” Williams better be the next coming of Deadmarsh. There is so much pressure on this guy right now that he may completely bust before the season ends. He’s already broke so not much further to go from here.

    As they say when you come out to Hollywoo errr Hockeywood…Break a leg Justin…or not!

    BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo!!!

    And they just sent me a mailer to buy playoff tickets too?! LMMFAO!

  • Ciccarelli

    Anonymous (who addressed me):

    I didn’t say I thought Sully’s value would go down over the next few weeks. There’s no basis to make such an assessment. Perhaps you’re getting me confused with someone else.

    Pick a name so we can address you! :)

    Ersberg – I can see Williams is a wanted asset (that’s why we had to out bid Edmonton for him) so I can see the basis behind the speculation. And I saw the thread at LGK. Nobody there put much credence to it. I don’t see it happening…unless there is some under the table agreement where another team said were interested in ____, ___, and ___ but the deal can’t go forward now for cap reasons.

  • Ersberg

    Flip him for draft picks? Again, you’re not getting it. He would go with other players and picks to get player that is better. Like a 45-50 goal scorer.

    He has the SAME value as he did when he was on Carolina. Really, he does. He’s not a house.

    His value will increase once he’s healthy, because, well, he could then play again.

  • Quisp

    Saying POS didn’t fit into the system is a nice way of saying that he avoids playing in the areas that will get his nose dirty.

    Ersberg -

    If Williams is an “ex-goal-scorer” then the trade was a mistake. Assume that he is a 27 year-old 30-goal-scorer. Otherwise there is no reason to trade. The injuries are a legitimate concern. But, keep in mind, if he’s not injured, you’re going to have to give up more than Patrick O’Sullivan to get him. Like Frolov, say.

    Secondly, I don’t think your description of our cap situation is accurate. I gather the Hockey News article said we had cap issues or something, but this is just plain wrong. Here’s the Kings’ cap situation for next year:

    20 players under contract, including bonuses: $42.332MM
    Johnson est.: $3MM
    Purcell est.: $1.3MM
    TOTAL: $46.662MM with two players left to sign.

    Preissing is going to get bought out. So I’m going to subtract two-thirds of his salary, since only a portion will count against the cap (the formula for calculating the cap hit for a buy-out is apparently too complicated for anyone to explain clearly, but this approximation will do). So, subtract $1.8MM. And you’re at $44.862, but now with threeplayers left to sign, to get to a full roster of 24.

    One defenseman and two forwards. Say one of the forwards is Lewis. That’s another 0.765. And say one of the defensemen is a prospect, Voynov or Hickey. Voynov or Hickey entry level will add approx. .800, but bonuses for Hickey, I’m assuming those would be like Doughty’s but a little less. Since you pretty much have to have cap room for Hickey to make the team next fall (otherwise, what’s the friggin point, right?), lets say the cap hit for that last D is $2.8. Along with the Lewis figure, that brings our total to:

    That’s $48.427MM for next year, with one player left to sign. If that player is a prospect (the lowest possible salary), the number will go up to $49+MM. If that player is a big pricey UFA (e.g. Hossa), the number goes up to…$55+MM.

    Which is why I have been saying that the Kings can either sign a giant UFA and go to the top of the cap, or stay totally with the kids and be in the middle, in the range of $49MM.

    DL could also obviously decide to split the difference and add a medium-sized guy for half the price, but I don’t think he will. He’s already got enough of those guys. And he just traded for one.

  • Ersberg

    Quisp-

    Forget about the Hockeynews article in reference to the cap stuff. That’s BS. I was only pointing out the comme nts to the “flip” portion.

    I brought the cap part up in my post as more fuel for my post, meaning flip JW to keep us in the “middle” area of what you described in cap numbers($49ish to maybe $51ish after the trade in the offseason).

    Meaning..

    Trade JW+ to get the big gun, rather than sign him as a UFA. As in, getting one that’s already under contract beyond this off-season.

    Dean clearly doesn’t like signing “risky” UFA’s, but he would, for the right guy, since he mentioned it in his interview(s).

  • Seattle757

    I still can’t get over this trade and I feel what Lombardi has done here is acquire another Tomas Sandstrom. Sandstrom was a greatly talented player when he was healthy, but somehow injuries just seem to follow him. If he wasn’t getting slashed on the wrist it was his back, or something. He was one of my favorite players, but he just had a big bullseye on him

    I see the same with Williams. I have to admit I don’t know much about him, but I sure know it seems he has a bullseye on him, just like Lindros and they do no good when they are injured.

    So supposedly Sully didn’t fit in? What about Frolov earlier in his career? He was always being criticized, but they gave him time to develop and look at him now! Camelleri was always being criticized and look what he has turned into! What happen to giving the players a chance to develop?

    This trade to me is another Cloutier acquisition, except we lost something in return.

    -Angry in Seattle

  • HBfan13

    I hate to get the scoop on you Rich but I have have some inside news from two members of the Kings organization who will be greatly affected by this trade. Both “The Side of the Net” and “The Glass behind the Net” are extremely distraught over this trade. This trade will significantly reduce their roles on this team going forward. Additionally if Justin Williams returns to form next year “The Front of the Net” will take even more of their ice time away from them.

  • number 6

    I got something from Rich’s succinct comments that I hadn’t been getting out of many other posts…. partially because I’ve been focused on how unhappy I am at getting another very injured player. Specifically what he said about having cashed in one of our most valuable assets rather than combining it with other assets to get something (someone) with a slightly shinier physical history who would be a definite impact player. That makes perfect sense to me.

    Second, I’ve heard it said what blazing speed JW has. Ummm, excuse my naivety but wouldn’t all of those injuries (the accumulation of them) have a very definite impact on his speed? It would seem to me that the answer is yes! People keep referencing Zeus, but JW’s injury history is far more severe than that of Michael Handzus…. and that’s the rub.

  • Ziggy

    HBfan13

    HAHAHA
    great post!

  • Ersberg

    Do I like this trade?

    Are you kidding me? I love trading new cars for used ones. Especially if they’ve blown a trans, a couple gaskets, blown a radiator or two, and a maybe a muffler.

    I’m selling the Moon. Anybody want in? Kopi+1st is the minimum opening bid.

  • http://Scott3343 scott3343

    Wow, I love all this chatter.

    Personally I think Sully wasn’t cutting the mustard this season. I loved his play last year…was it just a great season for him? I hope he does well on his new team (ex-King players usually do).

    I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is a rebuilding team. If we don’t make the play-offs this year I’m ok with that. If it takes the rest of the season and the summer for JW to get healthy then that’s what it takes. Maybe his injuries were do to the team pushing him back in before he was fully healed. I’m not sure, but let’s give the guy a shot before we beat Lombar down. If it doesn’t work out then go ahead and bash away.

  • Ersberg

    Scott,

    I think it’s more about the value, and not the trade as whole. Sully+2nd is steep for a injury-plagued 27 year old.

  • Duckhunter

    HBfan13,

    What a great post. Must admit I had to read it more than once, but when it finally sunk in, I got a good laugh.

  • wavesinair

    @HBfan13

    classic. funny post dude. i love sully but have no problem making fun of him.

    i loved what someone else called him: perimeter patty

    now that’s funny!

  • Anonymous

    If they would have replaced Goatse-air for the second rounder…I would have been happy with it…

  • Quisp

    Ersberg, re “I love trading new cars for used ones. Especially if they’ve blown a trans, a couple gaskets, blown a radiator or two, and a maybe a muffler.”

    Yes, but, in your car analogy, POS would not then be a new car; he would be a partially assembled car that may or may not have all its parts. And Williams of course has been to the mechanic and had his transmission replaced.

  • Ersberg

    Quisp-

    Actually, Sully is a new car; he’s just not a top of the line model. Here’s the breakdown:

    Sully-New Toyota Camery
    Williams-Used Cadillac CTS

  • Duckhunter

    Sully- Jaguar, lots of potential, but never fully operational.

    Williams- Restored 68′ Camaro.

  • Anonymous

    as a King fan in Carolina, Williams is a great player and can help if healthy. However, he has had too many serious injuries and with age each injury makes it harder to come back. This is a risk a team with depth takes, not one trying to build with youth.

    Also what does this trade say about Lombardi. We are so desperate for a winner that we have bought into yet another rebuilding phase. What year are we in of this great plan? If Sullivan is not a part of the future or was a bad apple attitude wise, then why do we have him and why didnt we trade him earlier? Having to make a risky trade using a core player from the youth movement shows that DL is not getting the amount of young players needed to build this team from the ground up in any reasonable length of time. The plan is not working in a reasonable time. He is trying to change it with high risk high reward trades. What is his track record on those?

    Seems like the GM has fallen into the Kings blackhole and he is trying desperately to get out before he is the latest victim to be fired.

    Hes gotten a couple of nice pieces, but any team picking near the top of the draft for 4-5 years is bound to get a player or two. We should be thankful we lost the lottery to Tampa otherwise we wouldnt have Doughty as DL would have picked Stamkos.

    My point is we need to get away from drinking this GMs kool aid. He isnt anything special and not as good as Taylor.

  • Marty

    Deano is lying. J IR Williams is the same size as Sully,5 11 195 lbs.Plays a softer game then Sully. What is it with Deano and Murray with these Philly guys. Remember the fascination Crawford had for his Ex players,it just doesn’t work.Deans like a child that didn’t get his way in the contract negotions with Sully and the same thing is going to happen with Jack Johnson.As far as fitting in Sully made every line he played on better.The Kings just didn’t utilize him through their own fault.Big Mistake Deano.

  • Quisp

    More POS trade stuff, for those of us going through Rich withdrawl…

    http://kwisp.wordpress.com/2009/03/23/kuklaskorner/

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