Team USA update

Jack Johnson had a big game for Team USA today in the IIHF World Championships, but the Americans fell to Sweden 6-5 in overtime in their final pool-play game. Johnson assisted on two 5-on-3 power-play goals in the second period, and his even-strength goal, 8:20 into the third period, gave Team USA a 5-2 lead. Sweden then rallied with three goals, and made it 5-5 with 3:51 remaining. Sweden won it when Kristian Huselius scored 1:59 into overtime.

Team USA finished first in its group and, if I’m reading the schedule correctly, will play France on Sunday and Switzerland on Monday. (That’s a correction…I didn’t realize I was already looking at updated standings…)

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  • variable

    the live feed originally gave credit to tarnstrom on the game winner…i guess it was changed correctly after the fact…

    the link i thought would work hasn’t…

    does anybody have a reliable, safe link to watch the rest of the tournament…???

  • Brandon

    USA finished first in its group.

    We finished with 7 points, and Sweden 6.

    Robert Esche showed why he’s in the KHL today.

  • MstrB

    They play France on Friday, Russia on Saturday and Switzerland on Monday.

    They will start Qualifying Round play in 2nd Place with 4 points.

  • WWAMD

    i Love jack, hes Great! Kill jack kill, SUCKS that his contract is already up. sign the boy long term deano

  • Tim

    Thanks for the update.

    Does anyone know if these games are on tv or online anywhere? I’d love to watch’m if I can.

  • mrbrett7

    How many goals was Jack Johnson on the ice for? I want him signed also, but he really needs to get better in his own end, and BADLY.

    (note, I didn’t see any of these games, I’m commenting on the his performance this season for the Kings)

  • AK47

    JACKOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
    a goal and an assist, wow.. I hope DL is watching these games..
    The games Jack missed throughout this year will be replaced by the games in the IIHF in the evaluation perspective.. sign him long term, please Dean, please..
    This kid is amazing and we need him..

    3-4 years at 2.5 per..

  • 28 KINGS

    Esche was the best goalie the USA had (out of the non playoff teams)? He played in Russia last year.

  • variable

    AK makes a good point that i was just about to comment on…

    since jj missed the first half of the season and came back around the all-star break, maybe this could be considered his “second half”…

    but be warned…

    international play is not the best way to gauge one’s success at the NHL level…

    - ice dimensions
    - lack of physical play
    - familiarity with yr fellow national teammates play
    - system(s)
    - team composition
    - players role on team
    - many world-class players still competing in the NHL playoffs
    - consistent level of competition

    are among some of the reasons not to measure one’s success at the international level as carte blanche for the NHL…

    for every mark streit, there have been many john parco’s…

    however…i’m very happy to see jj having great success so far in the tourney…it’s a encouraging sign…maybe he’s also stepped up his game in lieu of the upcoming negotiations…

    either way…i’ll take it…!

  • WWAMD

    AK47

    u serious?

    Thats a low ball offer

    thats how much Sopel is making. We paid 6 or 7 million for Rob Blake and I will be saddened if we can’t play our homegrown guy!

    Tom Preissing makes more then that, and Gauthier is not to far off either.

    Tim Gleason is making more and so is Joe Corvo. Wasn’t Jack suppose to be better then all the above?

    Then pay him better!

    I say between 3.25-4 for Jack 5-6 year!

    He is between a Weber and a Suter…so pay him accordingly.

  • variable

    wow…

    those contract scenarios are so high and out of range, considering what jj has done at the NHL LEVEL…

    maybe an escalating step contract would be sufficient…

    but noooo way is d.l. going to give him more than anything above $2.5mil/per…maybe advancing to $3mil/per…if it’s a long-term deal…

    i think what is fair for him is a three-year deal going something like $2mil/2.5mil/2.75mil…

    that way you give him enough time to put up better numbers and have the ability to reward him after the deal is done…

    $4mil…? really…?

    i think that’s waaaay too much at this point…considering we are so stocked w/NHL potential blueliners that are going to be much cheaper to keep…

  • josh e.

    i agree with mrbrett. JJ has shown he has offensive upside…but he needs to get way better defensively. He played only half of the games this year and had the worst plus minus. Considering the fact that he wasn’t usually on the ice with doughty against the oppositions best offense, that’s pretty bad

  • darko25o

    28 KINGS,
    Miller would be worlds better, so would Montoya, Quick, or half the goalies in my in-house league….

  • anthony

    I saw the highlights of the game.
    Robert Ecshe lost the game.
    I don’t think team USA will get far with him in the net.

  • khanon81

    I have to admit, I think DL made a big mistake trading Gleason for JJ. Gleason is a better version of Greene, a heart and soul type of player that would fit very nice on the blue line here. Don’t get me wrong, I like JJ, but I just don’t see the Kings paying him big bucks now or in the future simply for the fact that they will have to sign Doughty to a big K, shell out some dough to potential free-agents, and other young players that pan out, not to mention the money spent already on the Kopi, Brown, and Williams.

  • SCARFACE909

    28KINGs, Ryan miller declined his invitation to play for Team USA i think Lindy and the Sabres may have told him not to play after being out for a while with that ankle injury that basically cost buffalo their season. I thought quick was on the team but i may be wrong cant remember at the moment.

  • WWAMD

    Variable

    I understand that people envision soo many prospects coming to the blueline. But reality is, maybe one or two may emerge

    looks like possibly Hickey and Voynov will be the two

    and who is going to protect those small guys?
    Doughty? No
    Greene? how many fights can he lose
    Odie? See Greene
    Quincey? Nope

    So you NEED Jack for OFFENSE, and TOUGHNESS. He will be better defensively as time goes on. Good Defensemen are hard to come by. Jack is the kinda guy we need in the playoffs, He has playoff attitude and toughness written all over him. If we are left without him what is our weak defense going to do in the playoffs when people run our goalie?

  • darko25o

    WWAMD,
    completely agree with your assesment of the need for toughness. We have Brown backing away from fights, and no other skilled forward willing to throw down-except for the incredible Wayne Simmonds. I know all these guys are tough, but so is everyone else in the NHL. I want someone that is skilled, and just flat out mean. I think JJ and Simmonds fit that mold, but I’d like to have 4 or 5 on the team that has the other team thinking twice before throwing a body check, or taking a let poke at our goalie. I like the example that the Blackhawks set-Burrish, Brower, Eager, Dustin B., Seabrook. Its going to be very tough for a team to contain such a skilled set of lines, all while worrying about being absolutely crushed. The 2007 Ducks had a similar look. They had a great set of skilled players meshed with hard nose hitters/fighters-May/Moen/R.Niedermayer/Pronger/Beauchemin/Getzlaf….
    we just don’t have that. Simmonds/JJ/Gauthier/Brown(?)

  • deadcatbounce

    We’re in a recission now, quite a svere one in case anybody didn’t notice, and unless you’re a bonafide superstar you won’t get as much now as you would have two or three years ago. It’s unfortunate, but that’s life.

  • variable

    WWAMD/DARKO…

    i have no problem w/ what yr both saying…we do need more of an edge…

    i just don’t think giving jj that much money is in anyone’s best interest…i don’t think he’s a $4mil/per player as of yet…

    that’s why i’m suggesting a three-year deal similar to the escalating terms i have outlined…

    if he performs to higher level IN THE NHL…then fine, we should reward him then…but $4mil/per…??? IMO that’s giving him too much too soon…

  • deadcatbounce

    I just think, given the current state of the economy, that GM’s are going to reward results, not bet on potential. That could mean more short-term contracts for the next couple of years.

  • variable

    DEADCAT…

    yeah…i agree…

    but holland just gave franzen an 11 year deal…and he’s top of the food chain as far as GM’s go…

    so…who knows…?

    i think it depends on the player, too…

    i usually agree w/holland and his deals…but that franzen deal was a bit too much term for my taste…

  • jet

    I agree with Deadcat. Within 15 months the cap has as good a chance of being lower as it does of being higher. Contracts may be better (higher value) if the cap is reduced significantly this year. That may remove some of the uncertainty for GMs, and thus fear of signing a contract longer than one or two years.

    The very top FAs may still get theirs, but the very good to average players will be disappointed. Variable’s numbers are in the ball park and may end up being high if it looks like the cap drop will be over 7-8%.

    Remember that the most of the American teams are in financial trouble. The cap could possibly decrease 10%.

    The Kings may be the best suited team to trade for a player with a heavy contract on the cheap, similar to OD last year.

  • darko25o

    $4mil a year?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I didn’t say that, and I love JJ, second only to AK’s unwavering worship.
    Variable,
    We have been friends for nearly 7 posts now….
    does that sounds like something I’d say?!
    3 years, 2.6 max, or 6 years at 3….
    You sign JJ for too much, and you’re setting a scary precedent for Fro, and all of our upcoming Defensive stars. I can’t justify paying anyone more than 2.6 when they haven’t solidified their game. Also, keep in mind, the Johnson contract will have a direct impact on Quincey’s, so I would actually prefer to lock down Kyle first, and take his #s and productivity to JJ as a bargaining tool.

  • variable

    DARKO…

    i’d like to think we’ve been virtual friends here much longer than that…

    pardon my mistake in grouping you w/WWAMD’s original post…

    no harm…no foul…

    gee…what a contentious week it’s been…?!?!?!

  • khanon81

    WWAMD,

    You make JJ sound like hes in the same category (in terms of toughness) as a Charra, Witt, Phaneuf. JJ is gritty but not that tough… Who has JJ fought that is really tough? The Frenchie in Edmonton? Penner? Come-on man, I’m a fan of JJ, but he shouldn’t get more than $2 mill per season… If he asks for more, he should be dealth along with Frolov for someone worth mentioning.

  • deadcatbounce

    I dont believe that the cap will come down significantly for next season, as revenues were already counted well before this time. The season where will see the cap really come down, at least in my humble opinion, is in the season after next, 2010-11. The CAD has also fallen of late compared to the USD, so this could put the Canadian teams on a more or less equal financial footing with the American clubs, if not maybe even at a little disadvantage because, to be honest, I havent checked the exchange rates in a few weeks.

    I also agree that Hollands contract to Frandsen was a little surprising. Eventually, I think that the long-term contracts handed out to so many of the Wings is going to choke off their ability to have as stellar a supporting cast as theyve had. Wonder if DiPietro is ever going to live up to his potential in the next dozen years or if hell end up on the scrap heap of chronically injured goalies and the Isles will still have to pay him off for a decade?

    And those of you who continue to use racial slurs in this forum continue to demonstrate your I.Q. of 81, and thats probably being very generous.

  • variable

    JET…

    yes…those cap estimates are dead-on…and i did take that in consideration in my proposed jj deal…

    excellent points…!

  • variable

    i think another thing you have to take in consideration is the player escrow payout that continually goes up…

    QUISP has done a great job in the past of breaking down the possible different cap scenarios proposed for 09-10 and 10-11…

    i also posted a cap hit chart regarding players already committed for next season and 10-11…real interesting stuff..the kings are by far positioned the best in terms of salary commitment and players under contract….

    when it becomes more relevant, i’ll re-post it w/any changes between now and then…

  • darko25o

    I think my idea about signing Quincey, as a statement, will set the bar for JJs contract.
    Jet,
    right on! This cut in cap could be the greatest thing thats ever happened to the organization for the simple fact that we’re soooo far below it.
    And on that note…buy out Priessing

    KHANON THE BARBARIAN,
    I think its the fact that JJ has that bully mentality that sets the tone. Agreed, he doesn’t fight alot, but he doesn’t shy away, and he’s constantly instigating. I honestly believe this contract would be easier to nail down had he been healthy for the whole year.

    Variable,
    777 posts…my “7″ has some hardened peanut butter under it. Thats pretty good considering I’ve only been on this thing for a month : )

  • WWAMD

    khanon81

    Chara, Witt et al. are on different pay categories. Even Phenuef. They are all 6 mill plus players, Giving 4 mill for a 6 year contract is reasonable.

    2 million to Jack is WAYYYY to low. He’d be the lowest paid defensemen on the Kings!

    At 3 Million for 6 years, he’d be making less then guys like Seabrook, Shouray, Gilbert, Liles, Hannan, Foote, Aucoin, Sarich, Regheur, Rivet, Spacek, Burns, Schultz, Zidlick, Suter, Weber, Martin, Sutton, Morris, Kuba, Carle, Rathje, Ehrhoff, Finger, Mitchell, Salo, Bieksa, Ohlund, Poti

    So he’ll be making less then all those guys on a 6 year contract and you think that is ridiculous?

    Jack went 3rd overall for a reason. Lock him up now for 6 years at 3-4 million is considered a STEAL!

    2 million is a JOKE, come on, Gauthier is making more then that and so is Priessing. Come on Kalinin makes more then that

    Geez. Looks like we have a bunch of Lombardi’s on here low balling players

  • jet

    Deadcat – A month ago I would have thought it was a slam dunk that the Cap would change little this year and decrease next year. But now, we are seeing teams in big trouble. The Yotes just received an emergency loan from the NHL and the Stars missed a $10M interest payment. There is a chance, all be it a small one, that we could lose a team before the start of the season. I think the players union would see it to their benefit to allow a drop in cap now to keep 20 or 40 players.
    There is nothing that will lock up a business faster than not knowing what its budget will be. If the cap drops this year, that may imply a stable cap next, and longer contracts this year.

  • jet

    Darko – I agree with signing Quincey first. But, Pressing may be best left in Man. to help out the young
    ones.

  • src3

    WOW!
    Alot of man crush vibes for JJ out there. Yeah potential is there but as in the NHL he is looking like a minus machine again.

    This is not writen in stone… but, was he not in the crease as Huselius muscled in the game winner last night??? Would love to see the final +/+ stats, I think JJ was at least -2. The Swedish goalie Magnussen was doing a Hasek impression the whole game.

    Was that not Old Patty Osullivan that turned the puck over in his own end that created the game winning rush?

    PS the games are live in Norway. The Swedes show all the games.

    JJ is not worth 4 mil a year yet, no way. I agree with Varibale here, a nice 3 year graduated contract is fair for both sides.

    PS-US team needs to call up MR. Quick and fast. Esche is brutal.

  • Quisp

    Two things:

    (1) Team Loktionov: http://kwisp.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/ontario-hockey-league–official-website-rogers-ohl-championship-series-game-1-highlights/

    (2) JMFJ: come on, now. You can’t compare JJ’s pending first non-entry level contract with a UFA signing like Gauthier or Preissing, neither of which will likely be Kings this fall anyway. And, for better or worse, JJ is all about potential (like POS before him; only JJ has done even less than POS had done at this point in his career). JJ was hurt by, well, being hurt. He’s great and will be appropriately compensated as such, but he’s not going to get more than $3MM. Somewhere in the $2.75MM area I think. I wonder if it won’t be short term contract, like three years, $8.5MM.

    And for those of you arguing that JJ must be paid more than $3MM, underline this: every dollar you pay him over $3MM is a dollar you don’t have to sign that big UFA everyone wants. In all likelihood, the UFA situation will resolve itself sooner than the JJ contract, at which point it will be all too obvious what JJ will get, because there either will be money there or there won’t be.

    Okay, three things…

    (3) the cap will probably go up nominally this season (2009), and will certainly go down next season (2010). It will frankly suck to be a UFA next summer (Frolov, Nash, et al).

  • PolarBearOne

    Someone bring me up to speed here. Why is Jon Quick not in Switzerland?

  • src3

    Another good point out there….Q man needs to get locked up!!! If JJ pulls a Patty Osull-he is gone like the wind. Maybe Phi will take him for Hartnell….hehe

  • variable

    QUISP…

    that 2nd loktionov goal was a thing of beauty…

    i have got my hopes and expectations on high alert…
    training camp is going to be great…can’t wait…!

  • Quisp

    Variable –

    Agreed. My little fantasy is Purcell/Loktionov/Moller as a fourth line with real minutes and no knuckle-draggers. I know, it’ll never happen. Maybe Loktionov won’t even be ready for a couple of years.

  • JDM

    Hmmm… I can’t seem to view your video Quisp. Is it on youtube? I very much want to see some clips of Loki!

  • Matt George

    Hey if any of you guys want some fun .. just go to google news … type in “San Jose Sharks” ..

    awesome

    I know we’ve covered this but I gotta say … it’s good to be a King this year and boy does it suck to be a shark.

    mmmuuaaaahhahahahahahaaaaaaa!!!!!!

  • 4thlinechecker

    Quispy,
    I have been getting my fill of the Kool aid lately… Good stuff, but please no more pictures of Helene!ha!

    I am feeling you on Loktionov, however I must disagree with you on your 4th line. I dont think we need guys like Westy or Ivanans, but how great would it be to have a couple Ben Eager / clutterbuck / rutuu / Neil type of guys on a 4th line?

  • deadcatbounce

    I saw that story about the Coyotes. No surprise, really, as they were reported to be hemorrhaging cash since the beginning of the sason. Even so, I don’t think that they can start manipulating the salary cap and/or CBA arbitrarily like that.

    And what a lot of you may not be taking into account is that, while the Kings may well bring John back along with other RFA’s, there may well be some players who you’re thinking of now as locks to make the team out of training camp who may not even be here come September.

  • AK47

    Quisp-

    How filthy is that Windsor Spitfire team? Taylor Hall and Andrei Loktionov are just a perfect fit. I say we come in last place next season, get the first pick overall and draft Taylor Hall with the pick (just kidding…). Loktionov’s second goal was just dirtyyyy, so effing nice, this kid is really something and I hope he makes the team next year. I like your fourth line proposal except something a little more like this..

    Neil-Moller-Loktionov

  • Quisp

    AK –

    I would hope that Purcell/Moller/Loktionov would be even more effective than Loktionov/Hall. Moller’s comparable numbers in Chilliwack were about ten points under Hall’s last two seasons (i.e. close enough to be mouth-watering). And Moller is an inch or two shorter than Hall; but if he weren’t, he wouldn’t be on the Kings because he would have been a top fifteen pick for someone else.

  • mrbrett7

    WWAMD…

    You know what? Right now, he isn’t anywhere near in the class of a single one of those defensemen you listed (well, maybe Tom Poti). What’s worse, he shows not a single sign that he can get better DEFENSIVELY.

    He is a defenseman. Play defense…the offense will come.

  • darko25o

    AK,
    true dat.
    There is a very good chance that Moller takes Stoll’s spot as the number 2-ie. Giroux with the flyers-but alot of that will depend on what style of LW we get. They’ll need a frolov, bigger bodied type, to play along side of Moller.
    I always like to see a line that has a grinder-man in the corners, a sniper, and a puck possesion guy. That combination always seems to be the most effective. So, based on that equation, I’d have to go with a
    ??????/KOPITAR/JW
    Frolov/Moller/Brown
    Lokti/ZEUS/SIMMONDS
    1st rounder/Stoll/Clune
    -PURCELL

    Doughty/JJ
    Quincey/GREEN
    OD/DREWISKIE
    -VOYNOV

  • AK47

    Darko,

    You think Trevor Lewis plays in Manchester for another year? Either way, that lineup seems pretty solid to me, except me maybe replacing Lewis with Loktionov.. It really depends on who beats who in training camp..

    What about Hickey? or Boyle?

  • Tim Chaney

    There’s no question that signing jmfj is a must. a 6yr, 3mil per is about right. there’s no question the guy can play, look at his history. who is coaching the u.s. team? what is jj’s hit total in this tournament? what’s his plus-minus? just curious. does the change in coaching style make a difference? or does he now feel like he’s free to play his real style now? take a lesson from the dodgers in the pedro martinez deal for delino deshields. losing jj could be devestating down the road. a fair deal must be struck by both sides and yes, jack must prove himself. but he must be signed and stay healthy. if you can squander millions on nagy, bure, and cloutier(remember them?) surely you can gamble on a player that has the potential to be a norris candidate for years to come. dont let him blossom in chicago, let it happen here…

  • -J

    Rich and those interested- here’s an updated schedule for the U.S.- USA plays France on Friday, Russia on Saturday, and Switzerland on Monday (all games are 11:15 A.M. PST)

  • AK47

    Tim Chaney-

    I completely agree with you 1000000000 %.. You’re spot on. The coaching change couldn’t have taken a huge toll on Jack Johnson’s play because he had double the goals last season then he did 2 years ago, when he played half the games this year. I know Terry Murray is evidently a more defensive minded coach, but how do you explain JMFJ getting double the goals he had in his rookie year while playing alot less games.. Jack Johnson is going to keep getting better and if we don’t re-sign him, we’re gonna be the ones losing out on a future norris candidate and amazing defenseman..

    Everyone who keeps mentioning trading Jack Johnson away is just delusional.. It’s probably the worst idea since signing Dan Cloutier and Alyn McCauley or trading Patrick O’Sullivan for Justin Williams (just kidding about the POS for Jwill)..

  • Quisp

    darko, re lineup:

    That’s a pretty good line-up, I think, although I agree with the Lewis point. Lewis will make the team ahead of Clune. I hope Clune is ready next year, because we need a guy like that. But maybe other players will get more “agitator-y.”

    As far as predicting actual lines goes, we all know what a crap-shoot that is, and how meaningful given how much TM likes to juggle lines (not like he’s alone in this habit…). For that reason, I usually break it down like this:

    Five expensive top-six guys: Kopitar, Williams, Brown, Stoll, Frolov…plus one UFA. If that guy is a right wing, then you have Fro/Ko/UFA and Williams/Stoll/Brown. If that guy is a left wing, you have UFA/Ko/Williams, Fro/Sto/Bro. Either way.

    Third line is xx/Handzus/Simmonds. xx ought to be Lewis, because Lewis is super responsible defensively, and has an offensive upside. Lewis/Hanzus/Simmonds is a great line, a shut-down line that can score. My dark-horse alternative to this line is Wudrick/Handzus/Simmonds, provided that Wudrick surprises everyone and makes the team. He probably won’t this year, though I’ll be sad if he doesn’t make it year after this.

    That leaves the fourth line. The fourth line to me is the biggest question mark. Bigger than the first line issue. Because if you assume Moller, Purcell and Lewis are going to make the team, you can’t really have them AND have that fourth line of knuckle-draggers. Lewis, as I said, I hope is on the third line. In order for Moller and Purcell to play meaningful minutes, it means you have to have a fourth line that plays 10 minutes a game. I choose to dream that this line is Purcell/Loktionov/Moller. It could easily be Purcell/Boyle/Moller. Or Purcell/Azevedo/Moller. It all depends on what happens in September.

    For the sake of argument, I will go with

    Frolov/Kopitar/Hossa
    Williams/Stoll/Brown
    Lewis/Handzus/Simmonds
    Purcell/Loktionov/Moller

    Johnson/Doughty
    Quincey/Greene
    Hickey/SOD
    Drewiske/Voynov

  • AK47

    Quisp-

    You’re spot on brother, spot on.. That’s a serious looking lineup to me and imo it equals a playoff spot.. You think Hickey makes the team before Drewiske though? What about Ivanans lol, or signing a guy like Chris Neil?

  • khanon81

    Once again, the knowledgeable King fans seem to leave out an enforcer when making their dream lineups.

    The Kings need AT LEAST one heavy enforcer (Westgarth and/or Ivanans) and one middleweight (Clune?) or else opposing teams will continue to push around the King’s top players and possibly injure them like Tampa did with Doughty or the prior year when Cammi had to come to Kopi’s aid, causing Cammi to miss most of the season.

    You “knowledgeable” fans need to stop bashing the ducks and actually respect how a NHL team should be put together.

  • Quisp

    khanon81 -

    Knowledgeable Kings fans know that there are 14 forwards on a roster, not twelve.

  • khanon81

    Having your enforcer not dressed is going to protect the skilled players?

  • Quisp

    The argument would be, (1) you skate a team that is tougher as a whole and (2) you protect your skilled players by scoring on the ensuing power play. In other words, one method of self-protection (the one espoused by you) is to have some enforcers around. But another method would be to score every time someone takes a run at you. If your power play is weak, it makes you much more vulnerable to being physically intimidated than if you don’t have a big goony enforcer.

    San Jose’s power play sucked. Detroit’s does not. Anaheim is about to learn the lesson. They will take penalties and be destroyed.

    p.s.

    In the two instances you mentioned, Doughty and Cammy, there were plenty of big bodies in those games, including so-called enforcers, who didn’t step up.

  • mrbrett7

    Conan…er Khanon…it’s not 1975 anymore.

    All you need to do is look at teams like Detroit to see that an enforcer isn’t necessary. If there was one around who could actually skate more than 10 feet without falling down, or taking a hooking penalty that hurts his team, fine, play him, otherwise, keep them off the ice.

  • khanon81

    Quisp,

    I really hope you’re joking because the lineup you proposed will be as unsuccessful in the playoffs (if they even make the playoffs) as the Kings have been during the regular season this past decade or so.

    I hope you’re aware that playoff hockey tends to be very physical, and the lineup you proposed will get bruised and battered within a game or two in a seven game series. Who’s going to take a beating in front of the net? whos going to go in the corners? whos going to bang the opposing D-man (brown being the exception)? Whos going to score garbage goals? whos going….? Just picture how much of a beating Kopi, muller, Frolov, and all the other finesse players would take.

  • Quisp

    (1) It’s Moller. Not Muller.
    (2) The line-up I proposed is a more robust version of this year’s line-up in the top three lines, with a fourth line of speed and skill, instead of a line of cast-offs who play 6 minutes a game.
    (3) I don’t see how putting in Ivanans and Clune instead of Loktionov and Lewis (for example) is going to change any of what you’re describing (“the lineup you proposed will get bruised and battered within a game or two in a seven game series.”).
    (4) Ivanans and/or Clune are not going to score garbage goals or take a beating in front of the net. That would be the job of Brown, Handzus, Simmonds, Kopitar, Frolov, Williams, Stoll and the UFA to be named later. Add to that Boyle, Wudrick in a year or two.
    (5) The Kings problem this season was not that they were getting man-handled or out hit. Their problem was they couldn’t finish. They couldn’t put pucks in the net. It’s always good, all things being equal, to get bigger, stronger and faster. But notice that this often means adding players like Williams, who rather than being gigantic and scary, simply plays hard and crashes the net. Like Moller. Hmmm.

  • variable

    QUISPY…

    why do you bother…?

    his motives are clear…he insults everybody and pretends that the sport is american gladiators…

    detroit wins it all last year with a mostly euro, non-enforcer line up and he challenges this fact with complete prejudice, falling to realize the overwhelming attempts by the league to eliminate gratuitous thuggery and staged altercations not only through it’s rule changes, but by the way the sport is being marketed…

    the days of slap shot 5 on 5 fighting are long over…n ot even his beloved quacks play that type of game, leaning more so than ever before on a skill/finesse game…sure, pronger and parros are there to provide any needed fisticuffs that are warranted…

    but everybody in the world is familiar with pronger’s short-fuse and ill-advised penalties that have cost many of his former teams…and current…games and series…
    i’m not questioning pronger’s abilities…he’s a very good defensman…but he has a long history of being a dirty player in clutch/important situations…quack fans should be holding their combined breath as to when he will cost them big time w/his shenanigans and antics during this playoff season…not even the great neides can contain his poor conduct and convince him to play physically in the right way…it hasn’t happened just yet this year, but it will…he always does something counter-productive…

  • khanon81

    Variable,

    Did you withdraw the olive branch after I accepted it?

    Pronger is simply a game breaker, the type of player that will take your team over the hump and win a cup.

    He went to Edmonton and immediately turned that team into a contender. He went to the Ducks and immediately turned them into a contender as they won a cup and probably will go all the way this year as well.

    So what if he has a short fuse? That short fuse defines who he is- a vicious player that opposing players need to be worried about. I really enjoyed the pummeling Pronger gave to Handzus a couple seasons back after Handzus shot the puck after the wistle, reminded me how European and weak that big frame really is.

    Pronger has almost the same impact on the game that a dominant center has on basketball. And theres no way you can dispute that. Pronger is either too physical and tough for your liking or your simply a homer.

    By the way, why do you keep stating that I offend everybody here? If my comments offend people here, then I don’t know what to say, maybe you guys have super thin skin or you’re just a bunch of p……

  • iansez

    You just come across like a total arse Khanon, the type of person I’d rather see in someone else’s jersey. Seems like that could be the case with all the Pronger love…

  • deadcatbounce

    Seems to me that Anaheim was already built to contend by the time Pronger got there, or am I missing something, khanon81? In building the ducks to win right now, Burke also put them into a salary cap mess thats going to really limit what they can do next season. If Scott Niedermayer returns, then Pronger is gone because they cant afford to keep them both. Bobby Ryan is also going to want a little increase when hes up for his next contract after next season.

    Yes, Prongers tough, and he also leads active NHL player in suspensions. Press the right buttons and you can take him out for a game or a series.

    People have pointed out your wrong thinking about European players before, so I wont belabor their point.

    And now youre calling us posters offensive names, too? Get a life! Youre like Avery–in the third year of the second grade.

  • variable

    yes…an olive branch has been extended and i still am abiding by it…

    i haven’t called you a name…i’m just severely suspect of yr motives…and yr ideas of the way the game should be played…

    and yes, you seem to be overlooking the constant retorts from people on this site taking exception with yr comments…

    again…it’s not me…it’s others…and you should start to take notice and make the appropriate changes in yr presentation….

    i don’t care if we agree to disagree…fine…that’s clearly obvious…and a part of group discussions like this…but you continuously bait posters with insulting their intelligence…and you have yet to offer anything groundbreaking here…

    i also wonder why you think by proclaiming yrself the most knowledgeable of all on this site is going to win you allegiance, praise and “students” to what really amounts to trite opines…like we are all going to bow down to you for insulting us…i don’t understand that logic…

    but to continuously be in contempt of others who disagree with yr thoughts on european players and the way physicality should be exhibited is a bit twisted, at best…

    you constantly mock and portray players like frolov as “euro-wimps”…

    - a player like frolov uses his physicality much different than you have seemed to notice…he is near impossible to knock off the puck…when he’s on top of his game, he controls the flow of play….you can’t do that and be a “euro-wimp”…

    - you fail to realize that when brownie was out of the line up, dealing w/the unfortunate circumstances surrounding the birth of his son, mason, frolov led the team in hits for a game and stepped up into a role he was asked to do…

    - frolov also scored more goals than about 50 other players, who are considered elite and/or snipers…he did this playing primarily on the 3rd line, which t.m. used as a checking/shutdown line w/handzus centering and providing an excellent face-off winning percentage and much needed two-way play…you can’t do this by simply being a “euro-wimp”…despite being miscast in such a role, frolov still led the team in goals and pp goals (often being cast on the pp2 unit)…

    you have to realize that europeam players like frolov and handzus offer a different set of skill and physical play that is different from the obvious rock’em, sock’em robots that you seem to be enamored with…

    can the kings be a tougher team to play against…?
    absolutely…
    can they stand to get players who tend to offer more of a physical presence at the net…?
    please name a team that wouldn’t want all their players to do this…even yr quacks and the detroit’s of the world…

    the exception i take w/yr constant euro bashing and demand of enforcers is that it’s a very one-dimensional commentary, limiting yr vision to solely one simple aspect of a very complex game…

    euro players tend not to fight…that’s because they have been raised and taught to play a more all-around game…they can be…and often times are….very physical players…they just don’t drop the gloves to display this part of the game…

    if you look closer and stop keying on only one element of being physical, then you will see just how physically gifted many euro players are…

    the one thing i like about the parros’s of the league is that he (they) also have skill….george can make some very good offensive plays out there, in spite of throwing it down…

    the george laraques, etc. of the league are on their way out because all they do is fight and, in today’s NHL, that’s simply not enough to warrant a roster spot…

    yes..it’s important to be physical…
    but it’s also important to have skill…

    the better teams in the league have a good balance of both…not just a line of goons, looking to spill blood at the cost of their team’s chances of winning…

  • -J

    Here’s something you all might find interesting, looking at this from a statistical point of view, since it is much harder to dispute numbers and historical facts. For this, team fight data from the regular season and post-season are used to assess whether team toughness, as indicated by fights, is predicative of success and longevity in the playoffs. (I think we will all agree that fighting is only one measure of toughness, but i think we will also all agree that more physically inclined teams generally get in more fights, indicating that the assumptions made are fair.)

    So here is the break down for the past 10 years. It includes playoff teams that made it to the conference finals (3rd round) and the Kings for each year. The breakdown is the team, total fights rank regular season, total fights in playoffs.

    30teams
    07-08
    Detroit (won cup)- 30th (1 in playoffs)
    Pit- 12th (3)
    Stars- 9th (0)
    Flyers- 4th (3)

    Kings- 29th, out of playoffs

    06-07
    Anaheim (cup)- 1st (4 in playoffs)
    Ottawa- 22nd (2)
    Det- 30th (2)
    Buf- 11th (0)

    Kings- 4th, out of playoffs

    05-06
    Hurricanes (cup)- 28th (1 in playoffs)
    Oilers- 18th (3)
    Sabres- 23rd (0)
    Ducks- 8th (9)

    Kings- 3rd, out of playoffs

    03-04
    TBL (cup)- 24th (7)
    Flames- 2nd (9)
    Flyers- 17th (2)
    Sharks- 23rd (4)

    Kings- 21st, out of playoffs

    02-03
    Devils (cup)-18th (2)
    Ducks- 23rd (0)
    Sens-16th (2)
    Wild-17th (1)

    Kings- 13th, out of playoffs

    01-02
    Det (cup)- 30th (0)
    Canes- 29th (0)
    Avs- 25th (2)
    Leafs- 14th (5)
    Kings- 8th, 1st round loss, 2 fights in series

    00-01
    Avs (cup)- 14th (4)
    Devils- 11th (6)
    Blues- 6th (1)
    Pit- 3rd (0)

    Kings- 15th, 2nd round loss, 0 fights in playoffs

    28 teams
    99-00
    Devils (cup)- 10th (2)
    Stars- 16th (3)
    Flyers- 7th (5)
    Avs- 8th (2)

    Kings- 6th, 1st round loss, 0

    27 teams
    98-99
    Stars (cup)-21st (1)
    Sabres- 10th (1)
    Avs- 2nd (0)
    Leafs- 15th (2)

    Kings- 5th (out of playoffs)

    26 teams
    97-98
    Wings (cup) 25th (0)
    Caps- 26th (3)
    Stars- 23rd (0)
    Sabres- 16th (2)

    Kings- 3rd, 1st round loss, 2

    Critical points to consider:

    -only once in the past 10 seasons has a team in the top 10 won the cup.

    -6 of the last 10 cup winners were in the bottom 10 (or 1/3rd) of the league in fights.

    -there does not appear to be much correlation between fights and getting deep in the playoffs (third round or beyond), though there is a skewing against teams that are in the top 1/3rd:
    Top 1/3 = 10 of 40 (25%)
    Middle 1/3 = 15 of 40 (37.5%)
    Bottom 1/3 = 15 of 40 (37.5%)

    -The Kings finished in the top 8 of the league 6 of the past 10 seasons, but only made the playoffs in 3 of those and did not get past the 1st round in any of those.

    Now, this will probably fall on deaf ears to those inclined towards enforcers, because if you like that style, that’s what you’re sold on. However, I think this shows that the “Need” for enforcers is over-estimated and also that some people around here need to drop the absolute, mr. know-it-all hockey attitude, because they don’t know half as much as they think they do.

    Good day to you.

  • deadcatbounce

    -J, let’s not forget that fighting is almost nonexistent in the playoffs, especially the deeper you go, and teams make their one-dimensional enforcers healthy scratches because of that.

  • variable

    J….!!!

    top-notch work and great insight in proving the point in a statistical sense w/proof in the pudding…!!!

    the game has evolved to a higher lever of skill and play…
    and simply trying to steamroll yr opponent not only doesn’t work and, as proven to be ineffective, but is against the current league rules…

    why do you think that thuggery and goonery is now reserved for the bush and beer leagues of greater manitoba…???

    all things evolve…i, for one, love how the game is being played post-lock out…

    are there some ticky-tack calls and poor rules…?
    sure..i’d like to see some minor changes and tweaks here and there…

    but i’m sooooo thankful that the one-dimensional knuckle dragger is on the way out…

    it proves that teams can smartly play physical and be equally tough to play against w/out dropping the gloves…and i have nothing against fighting…it definitely has a purpose in the game…

    but there’s soooo much more that comprises a cup winning team…

    thanks a bunch for providing the stats that back up this argument…!

  • Duckhunter

    Khanon81.

    Your opinions and thoughts are welcome here like everybody else’s, but I would like to suggest just a little more respect towards your fellow posters. Try and take the edge off a little and not as many people will attack you. This is a great group of people with tons of knowledge and insight, sit back and enjoy the experience. You can have different opinions, as I do, on some situations but that’s no reason to posture and start with the name calling.

    I will say one thing, I’d take Pronger any day of the week. His positives far out way his negatives and I personally like his mean streak. I have to agree as well with Pronger being that final piece that put them over the top. Non of thats going to matter though because Detroit should dispose of them quit easily. Don’t think Hiller going to look as good against Detroit as he did against SJ, though he did play outstanding. Detroit just has crazy skill. I root for them to lose, but can’t help watching them and enjoying the product they display.

  • variable

    DUCKHUNTER…

    i also like pronger and would want him on my team…and, as you mention, the positives outweigh the negatives…

    my point is that he does take the ill-advised penalty that can take his team out of winning a game…

    he’s more mature now…(i think)…and i think he can still display his mean streak w/out being foolish…

    i think that’s the one element that precludes him from greatness…if he were to become more disciplined and vent that dirt to a more structured/needed element to his game, he would be that much better…

  • Duckhunter

    Variable.

    Agreed.

    I know this isn’t the right outlook on Pronger, but I enjoy wondering what he’s going to do next. He’s unpredictable and my confused mind likes that. I like someone who is considered one of the best, but also has a little psycho-ness to his demeanor. Makes him that more effective and enjoyable to watch. You are correct though, he has hurt his team at times, but he is also a big part of their success as well.

  • Duckhunter

    J,

    That’s a nice breakdown.

    I do think you need overall team toughness, but do you really need a brawler with limited skills? I would say yes, if the team as a whole was soft, but on the other hand, I would say no if as a team we could handle ourselves when necessary. Quisp brought up a great point about an affective powerplay taking the place of the enforcer. My question is, do we have enough overall skill to implement that style.

  • AK47

    Khanon-

    Ivanans or Clune will be a healthy scratch, so that once we go up against bigger teams, we can insert him in the lineup..

    Gaborik-Kopitar-Williams
    OR
    Frolov-Kopitar-Hossa/Havlat
    Frolov-Stoll-Brown
    Lewis-Handzus-Simmonds
    Purcell-Boyle/Loktionov-Moller
    XX-Ivanans/Clune, Loktionov/Boyle

    Doughty-Johnson
    Quincey-Greene
    Drewiske-O’Donnell
    Hickey-Voynov

  • -J

    Good points on all those recent posts Duckhunter. I agree you need overall team toughness. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise with those stats. Look at all those years Detroit won. They didn’t use enforcers really, but they had the Maltby-Draper-McCarty line taking it to the other team. Here you’ve got a line that is tenacious on the forecheck, punishes the defence, forces turn overs, and goads the other team into penalties. Then your skill players get to the PP, and you punish the other team on the scoreboard. They can throw down if necessary, but that’s not there primary, or even secondary, MO. That’s that the kind of thing I’d like to see with the Kings, but whether they have that talent/type in the system is yet to be seen.

    In general, I think there is a framework in place for the team to implement a tough, in your face style, and I think this is what DL is going for to an extent. For instance, whether you like the trade or not, I believe this was a key in POS getting moved- He was a perimeter player, easily knocked off the puck at times, and really, he was kind of soft (though, don’t get me wrong, I think he’s a heck of a player). Contrast that to Williams, a guy who heads to the net and, though oft injured, has played through injuries and returned from the IR quicker than expected on almost all injuries(ie. he’s driven and tough). This is the kind of guy that plays through the playoffs with broken ribs or broken fingers. Of course, most of the guys in the league are highly driven and tough, you don’t make it to that level if you’re not, but guys like Williams take it to another level and it rubs off on the other guys in the room. I once played a playoff game with a broken hand in a cast (cut up a old glove and taped it over the cast to hide it from the refs) and I know it definitely had a positive impact on the rest of the guys on our team.

  • deadcatbounce

    -J, you talk about the Maltby-Draper-McCarty line, and thats one thing that separates the Wings from the Kings. Theyve all been there, done that, before and they know what it takes. Playoff experience throughout the Kings is so desperately lacking. Maybe Williams will be in integral cog if the Kings make the playoffs next year, but we really need a checking line al la Detroits if we really want to do any damage.

  • khanon81

    J,

    I have no qualms with your second paragraph, but I do with your first paragraph. I truly believe Detroit is not a good example to cite as a team that can win with a bunch of weaklings. The Detroit organization is different than any other, and its just the way it is. They have a system down there thats been in the works since the early 90s when Bowman took control.

    Other teams have attempted to apply the same system or something similar (SJ for example with McClellan as coach) with no success. Detroit is the only organization that can pull of successful years without dropping the gloves a single time.

    I’ve been a huge Kings fan since I was child, but I must admit that I really enjoy watching the Ducks. They’re pretty much everything I would want the Kings to be. Their top players (Getzlaf, perry, ryan) are tough and have solid offensive ability, and their blue line is by far the best in the league. They have a middle weight (Brown) and a decent heavy (parros).

    I also have to admit that I think DL is trying to build the Kings like the Ducks, by concentrating on the Blue line and crease first, then the forwards.

    If the Kings aquire Scott Hartnell and Ryan Clowe, I actually think they would have a very good chance of going far in the playoffs, of course, J Quick has to continue where he left off. All in all, I really like what DL is doing and hope he listens to MY advice, because my advice is whats right… No offense to all of you with horrible opinions/advice/recommendations.

    Ps: You guys are the ones disrespecting me, calling me out, making fun of me, etc. I don’t complain because I know I’m right.

  • Quisp

    Well I’m glad we cleared that up.

  • Quisp

    p.s. McCarty has been in the AHL since November.

  • variable

    all i got to say to all that is…

    remarkable…(!)

  • JDM

    You know, I was reading that post khanon and I was pleasantly surprised that I wasn’t rolling my eyes. I was very impressed. A thought provoking post focused on opinion and discussion of hockey. Exactly the type of post I come to the comments section to read, ideally.

    I can’t say I agree with the Duck love, but I understand it, as much as I am disgusted by it. Shame on you, but hey, that’s your opinion quacker :)

    I can agree that Detroit is unique and I don’t think we can emulate their style with Terry Murray as coach.

    I would LOVE Clowe on this team. I love a good fighter on the team, but don’t want a team of goons. But please, give me a Hartnell or two, or cross my fingers Brown returns to form.

    Sadly I don’t think either of those scenarios (Clowe or Hartnell) are a realistic possibility. Atleast not without giving up some of our best prize chickens before they hatch. I can’t see DL giving Clowe an offer sheet, and if anyone is a victim of the Philly shake up, it won’t be Hartnell.

    So wow. khanon, engaging in good natured discussion, even if your opinions are harsh.

    And then I read this:

    “I really like what DL is doing and hope he listens to MY advice, because my advice is whats right… No offense to all of you with horrible opinions/advice/recommendations.”

    And it all came crashing down.

    That being said, I suggest everyone stop being so offended. khanon you are entitled to your opinion and personally I don’t care how harsh it comes off. But statements like that one above and “I don’t complain because I know I’m right,” just make you sound silly.

    I know you like stoking the flames, but don’t posture and contradict.

    Unless ofcourse you get a kick out of all this, then please, carry on, somewhere else.

    But, in the spirit of the forum, I’ll leave you with a thought about hockey.

    I will greatly enjoy the Wings beating the Sucks. I hope they get swept. I know that happen, but I’ll say Detroit in 6. I must say though, I want a player like Brown on our fourth line.

    You know, having a guy like Brown or Ivanans on the fourth line doesn’t preclude having a youngster like Lewis or Loktionov centering them. I know everyone screams and moans when Moller is “dragged down” by the knuckle draggers, but there are players like that which can be quite good to have. Zeiler isn’t one of them, however. But these guys are so random. DL drafts on character though, so I expect, like Quisp, a guy like Wudrick to fill that role in the semi-near future.

    Oh, and since when did Chicago forget to play defense? That GWG was pathetic. Walker should be beaten by his teammates with socks of soap.

  • Bring Back the Shield Jersey

    For all the good arguments made for a “kid” 4th line, and arguments and statistics against the importance of fighting and knuckle-draggers, the problem you logicians have is that

    TERRY MURRAY AGREES WITH Khanon81.

    It’s an obstacle that won’t go away until TM does. Having Ivanans AND Westgarth in the line-up simultaneously merely emphasizes the point. You guys, with the facts and cogency on your side, are whistling in the wind. And frankly, DL is more in tune with Khanon as well. Every army needs its criminals afterall.

  • Bring Back the Shield Jersey

    Oh yeah, Latvia continues to do well sans Ivanans.

    Just more whistling…

  • 4thlinechecker

    WoW!!!! It sounds like somebody just took there ball and ran home crying.

    J-, That was great to read, puts thing in perspective.

    There are’nt very many fights in the playoffs, but the ones that do happen are crucial. For example Talbot taking on Carcillo while down by 3 goals, Guins ended up winning 5-3. That fight jump started his team.

    Obviously by my name I love the physical side of the game, and I believe teams need guys to throw their weight around, however I cant stand guys like Ivanans, laraque, brashear etc. I much prefer guys like Ben Eager, Chris Neil, Jordin TooToo. They at least look like they belong on the ice, they will chip in once in a while, take runs at people, and when they do put the mits down it doesnt hurt you to bad that they are off for 5 minutes…. I dont think the Kings really have anyone that fits this mold, and I hope they go out and get someone like that for the 4th line (Neil)…. Maybe Clune will end up being that kind of guy.

  • khanon81

    JDM,

    “I will greatly enjoy the Wings beating the Sucks. I hope they get swept…”

    I rooted for the Ducks when they won the cup and I will root for them this year as well. I am a King fan at heart, but I truly believe the Ducks are great for the NHL. When the Ducks defeat the Wings and win the cup again, maybe other teams, MAINLY the Kings, will realize that grit, toughness, size, character, and the willingness to drop the gloves are integral to winning and being successful at the NHL level.

    I’ve never seen one fan sit quietly during a hockey fight, have you? The fans love it and if the NHL continues to curb fighting in an effort to attract “casual” fans, they will lose the real fans who actually watch and keep the NHL afloat.

  • 4thlinechecker

    Khanon,
    I love fighting but Heavys (knuckle draggers) having been making me yawn….Really Man, how many great heavyweight bouts are there nowadays? A handful a year at best, its not like McSorley/Probert anymore…. There just is not much emotion when they are fighting cuz its their job, not because they are truly pissed off or because somebody took a run at somebody. I think its all about the middle-weight guys that take runs at eachother and stick up for teamates…..

  • JDM

    Mmmm… perhaps I’m narrow minded, but I’ve always viewed being a Ducks fan and a Kings fan mutually exclusive.

    As for sitting quietly, hell no. I’m quite loud at games, and I only get a little tired of over repetative stuff in the stands, but I want every to holler, scream and cry all they can. And yeah, fights get the fans going and sometimes manages to get a team going. It’s just that it isn’t necessarily and must in the NHL. Teams can have success without making that type of game their calling card like the Disney team. -J’s list is pretty lofty, and I can’t help but notice you didn’t try to refute it directly.

    Because you can’t. Yes, the Ducks are definately a team built for the playoffs. Problem is they are falling apart during the regular season. Maybe that will change next year, but regardless of how well they do this year they are facing some serious problems and changes to their lineup. That can go either way.

    I don’t think Hiller is quite ready for Detroit. They won’t crumble and Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Franzen and Hossa will not choke. The scoring chances where there all series long in round one for SJ, as were the PP’s. San Jose = Chokers. Detroit = Clutch.

    Let’s also all not pretend like Detroit didn’t play a dirty game for a while. Chelios was a rotten SOB for many years with them. That has changed recently, but Franzen still pulls some stuff, and Datsyuk likes him a good hard cross check. They don’t fight, but they can take a hit and dish out some nastiness. They aren’t soft Euro’s, they are tough guys who are kind of cheap and dirty when other guys would opt to drop the gloves. So long as nothing is overly malicious with intent to injure, I’m OK with either.

    But more importantly, they finish like no other. They put pucks in nets. The stupid Ducks do too.

    And until the Kings solve that problem, they could punch out everyone on the ice and they are still going to lose.

  • AK47

    JDM-

    How about Holmstrom too? He’s a pretty dirty player, setting shop right infront of the opponent’s goaltender..

    The differences between the Ducks & the Red Wings is the 3rd line for Detroit (imo).. If the Samuelsson-Filppula-Hudler can put up points like they did in the first round, no one will stop Detroit.. Another thing is the PP, if Detroit is efficient on the PP, the Ducks will be doneeeeeeeeee.

    I say Red Wings in 5

    4thlinechecker-

    How about Tie Domi? Forgot to mention him? The Probert/Domi fights were by far the best ones and I wasn’t even old enough to remember them

  • mrbrett7

    Actually Sheild…I’m not so sure he does entirely.

    Ivaness, and Westgarth were played this season because team toughness was lacking.

    Look back to Murray’s older teams that he coached, and he rarely employed an “enforcer”. Dale Hunter was there in Washington, and besides the fact that he could pummel you, the man could also play the game (when he wasn’t creaming Pierre Turgeon from behind after scoring a goal).

    Point is…he felt he had to play those guys BECAUSE overall team toughness was lacking. In my opinion, that will get better as these kids get older. It’s not easy to be a 20 year old kid and go fight a “man” to protect a teammate, but it will as they continue to grow into their bodies.

    Moreover, look at the bulk of the guys drafted over the last 2 years…bigger, stronger, tougher, team toughness is on it’s way. Unfortunately, until then, we will be stuck watching a guy like Ivaness who will struggle to keep up in the AHL, and really belongs in the ECHL.

    As for Khanon…well…FYI dude…it started in Detroit when Ken Holland took over. Bowman was just the coach. It started with drafting that great fighter, Steve Yzerman…and Nik Lidstrom…and getting guys like Larry Murphy (that goon). But team toughness was still there with guys like Shanahan and McCarty, along with Maltby and others.

    You can’t “copy” Detroit in one season. In fact, McClellan doesn’t even run the same system they do in Detroit.

  • khanon81

    Mrbrett7,

    It started with Bowman’s coaching philosophy along with Holland’s acquisition of the Russian 5. That was the beginning. You’re right that Detroit DID have team toughness, but thats not the case anymore. Even Detroit’s goalies would throw it down ocassionally. Ken Holland is the worst thing that ever happened to the NHL.

  • khanon81

    The Kings could pick up a real nice player or two with the assets they have. A 5th overall pick, Frolov, Thomas Hickey (Too small for a D-man/no room), and the rest of those young bums- Lewis, Moller, Purcell, etc. But, if DL is going to pick up Gaborik, Kovolchuck, or another Euro, he better trade Frolov because it would be torture watching all these Euros.

  • Duckhunter

    Khanon81,

    I will give you this, you are a interesting cat.

  • mrbrett7

    How is Ken Holland the worst thing to happen to the NHL?

    If you had said Kevin Lowe as a GM, I would agree with you, but Ken Holland? What did he do…other than put together contending team after contending team.

    Babcock is far different than Bowman…in fact, he likes your kuckle draggers. How do you explain that? Actually, you haven’t explained much if anything, so I’m not really expecting any type of an answer here.

  • khanon81

    mrbrett7,

    “How is Ken Holland the worst thing to happen to the NHL?”

    The answer is simple. Holland changed the game for the worse. All these rules that are enacted to curb fighting were his ideas.

  • khanon81

    Duckhunter,

    I appreciate that compliment- keep em coming!

    One quick point. Being a King fan with a name like Duckhunter does not fit. In order to be a “duckhunter,” the kings either have to win at least 1 stanley cup by their 100th year or must continuously spank the ducks in the reg season or playoffs. Unfortunately, neither is true at the moment.

    I actually want the ducks to beat the kings up every time they play so the Kings will learn to build their team differently and draft differently. I hope the days of drafting/acquiring small and/or European forwards and D-man are over for the kings: Lubo, Hickey, Lewis, richradson, azevedo, cliche, gauthier, Moller, Murray, etc, etc, and etc. I also hope the days of drafting/acquiring big soft north americans are over as well: Purcell, moulson, etc. I never liked the Glenn Murray type of player and these players, if they reach their potential, would be identical to a Glenn Murray, which is horrible and the reason why he was traded numerous times.

  • Duckhunter

    Khanon81.

    I can’t really argue with you on the Duckhunter comment, for the hunting has been bad the last couple years. Hopefully here soon I’ll be shooting my limits. I would really enjoy that.

    Maybe you should try MMA, that sport would seem to fill all your prerequisites. Do you live anywhere near Temecula?

  • variable

    there are sooo many contradictions…i’m just going to leave it alone…it’s rather silly to keep on beating a dead horse or address a loose…eh…um…cannon…

  • mrbrett7

    Variable…I was just thinking the same thing.

    I don’t think it matters what anyone says…Khanon is still stuck with the Broad Street bullies of the 70′s.

  • khanon81

    Duckhunter,

    I’m very much a MMA fan and I’ve actually trained intensely. MMA is my number one sport, with hockey right behind.

    Variable,

    I understand why you keep attempting to politely put me down: you are simply intimidated my knowledge and presence. Its perfectly understandable.

    Mrbrett7,

    How about gathering your own thoughts instead of agreeing wholeheartedly with whatever variable says?

  • variable

    no need for me to do anything, as you can see there are plenty of others to take my place…

    i will give you credit…you are an original…what needs to be debated is the word that comes directly after “original”…

    seriously…say what you want…i really don’t care…and as i and others have pointed out…you have as much right as anyone to speak yr mind…

    …assuming that’s where yr speaking from….

  • deadcatbounce

    Duckhunter, please, in the future, refrain from calling khanon 81 a “cat”. It’s insulting and demeaning to all cats!

  • khanon81

    deadcatbounce,

    “Duckhunter, please, in the future, refrain from calling khanon 81 a “cat”. It’s insulting and demeaning to all cats!”

    very funny

  • Quisp
  • khanon81

    Quisp,

    Who’s Bryan Cameron? Is he a small and wimpy player?

  • khanon81

    I do apologize for the frequency of my posts, but you guys need to understand that I’m studying for finals for law school, which means I’m stuck behind my computer most of the time.

  • Duckhunter

    deadcatbounce,

    My apologies. I give you my word, I will not reference cats again in that manner.

  • khanon81

    For those of you that have a place in your heart for enforcers, here’s a very nice interview with Mike Peluso. He talks about how he became an enforcer, toughest rivalries, and whatnot: http://www.hockeyfights.com/articles/214

  • mrbrett7

    My own thoughts? Oh, I have plenty of them, of which I have posted here quite often as well as other websites.

    If I may make a suggestion…I think you may be better off sticking to Law School and MMA…seems more your speed.

    I deal with attorney’s all day, everyday…I’m not even going to touch this one.

    MMA is what it is…two neanderthal’s beating the snot out of eachother…yay…fun.

  • khanon81

    mrbrett7,

    “MMA is what it is…two neanderthal’s beating the snot out of eachother…yay…fun.”

    This is what I’m talking about. I suggest you think properly before exposing yourself as ignorant. MMA is a professional sport with professional athletes who are professionally trained through the various different types of martial arts. If you only knew the time, effort, concentration, and work professional mixed martial artists put in on a daily basis, you might eat your words (I say might because your ignorance might not allow you to).

    Good day

  • JDM

    mrbrett,

    MMA is actually two guys who start out beating the snot out of eachother, but then develop a strong affection for their rival so then they decide it would be more fun to sniff eachother’s taints on the matt.

    Quisp,

    I always thought Cameron was a LW? Or I am thinking of Dwight King?

  • JDM

    khanon,

    Everything you just said about MMA is true.

    However it does not discount mrbrett’s statement at all!

    Let’s just add them together:

    “MMA is what it is… two professional neanderthal athletes, beating the snot out of eachother, who trained through the various different types of martial arts… yay… fun.”

    Makes sense to me. Compromise?

  • Quisp

    King is a big LW playing for Lethbridge, so that’s probably who you were thinking of. Cameron is a small C/RW playing for Belleville. Both were 2007 picks (Cameron #82, King #109).

  • JDM

    This will some off you very happy (I’m looking at you AK!).

    http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/ott090501.html

    “The Senators do not appear to be close to signing gritty forward Chris Neil to a new contract, despite numerous attempts, reports the Ottawa Sun.

    Senators GM Bryan Murray and Neil’s agent, Todd Reynolds, haven’t spoken since the end of the regular-season and there are no future talks planned.”

  • Duckhunter

    What do you all think about that hit by Brown. I must have missed something, that looked like a good hard check. What’s the time frame in which you can no longer hit the guy that had the puck. Is that what they ended up calling?

    I’m trying to root for the Wings, but I just can’t bring myself to do it. I get so tired of hearing about the Wings all the time. I dislike them more than the Quacks.

  • Duckhunter

    Never mind, I just saw the replay. That was definitely a head shot. Ouch!

  • -J

    LOL, Ericcson (you know, one of those wimpy euros) just wooped up on Perry.

    Duckhunter, yeah that hit was late and high. i’m on a crappy feed but it looked like he might have caught him with the butt-end as well. Suprisingly, after getting his clocked cleaned and splurting blood all over the ice, Hudler, another wimpy euro, is back in the game.

    Sorry, Khanon, just having a little fun at your expense, it’s all good though. I’m curious, though, with your feelings towards euros in hockey, what’s your take on guys like bisping and fedor?

  • khanon81

    MMA is different… There’s no such thing as a soft professional mixed martial artist. It doesnt matter whether your from the US, brazil, russia, England, etc. They’re all there to beat some ass

  • deadcatbounce

    Oh, I get it now. You think hockey should be MMA on skates. That explains it now, and explains why we’ll make you an afterthought on this board.

  • khanon81

    deadcatbounce,

    What the hell are you talking about? I never said that hockey should be MMA on skates. The question asked was whether I feel differently about Europeans in MMA. And my answer was yes, the Euros in MMA are tough.

    Where you come out with you ignorant comments, I have no idea. You are an afterthought now and have been for quite some time. Get off my gonads…

  • 4thlinechecker

    Khanon,
    Your boy Perry got worked by a guy who does’nt fight…. ….. oh and he was a euro.

    You said you trained MMA…… where at?

  • khanon81

    4thlinechecker,

    Yeah, I don’t mind Euro’s that are willing to drop the gloves, more power to them… I’ve been doing Krav Maga for many years, went through the program in Israel, did the Krav in Sherman oaks and West LA. It got a little too trendy for my taste, so now I just train with a few of buddies from time to time. One of my buddies has a whole set-up in his garage, so it works out very well. Now I’m focusing more on Jiu-jitsu without the gi of course and wrestling. Are you interested? Would you like to be the recipient of a Khanon beatdown?

  • variable

    yr talking about a sport that now has jose “i told ya’so” canseco as marquee attraction, as he faces some 7’2″ behemoth in the near future…

    JDM…

    neil would be a nice addition…but might be too expensive and infringe upon any bigger signings…plus, nothing can really be discussed or accomplished until around draft day and/or late june, early july…so, even though both parties are far apart, there’s plenty of time for them to meet and get it straighten out…but, it is an interesting development and bodes well for those teams looking to pursue him…

    the red wings/quacks game one was very good and has set the table for what should be an exciting, very physical…sometimes dirty…war…brown will definitely get a call from colly campbell and be suspended…not a huge loss for the quacks, who played a very good road game and were all over osgood, crashing the net on almost every offensive possession…

    gotta give tons ‘o’ DAP to lidstrom, as he continues to display why he still is the best d-man in the league, despite if mike green (my pick) wins the norris this year…

    i remember ossie was not looking sharp at all for most of the regular season…but, as usual, has turned up his game significantly and has been standing on his head to give the wings a shot every night…feel somewhat bad for hiller, who also has been outstanding these playoffs so far…he probably wants that 5-hole game winner back from lidstrom…

    it’s going to be a great series…

  • deadcatbounce

    variable, maybe we should see if khanon81 boxes and pit him against Danny Bonaduce. I’d contribute to the pot, winner take all.

    As for Lidstrom, dude just keeps on performing. He probably won’t repeat as Norris Trophy winner, but then he probably doesn’t have anymore room in his trophy case with all the ones he has plus all the Stanley Cup awards. Pretty good for a softie Euro, eh?

    kahnon81, as for your reference to gonads when you flamed me earlier, where are yours? All that aggression you spew on here would tend to indicate PED’s, so I bet they’re shriveled by now.

  • 4thlinechecker

    Ha! your puppy dog mouth gives you away…….. People who can get down normally don’t feel the need to yap as much as you do, and a real fighter damn well would’nt call random people out over the internet……. I would’nt waste an ounce of energy on some “blog badass”….. Go prod your law school buddies, and stop wasting daddy’s money posting nonsense on here all day. Grow up man seriously you sound like a tool and you are pissing people off..

    Ive tried hard to not react to your nonsense, but from here on out I will…. lets get back to Hockey. How about them Bruins????

  • 4thlinechecker

    Rich I apologize, I know you cant stand monitoring this kind of stuff, but sometimes I just cant bite my tounge. Can you send that guy a link to LGK?????

  • deadcatbounce

    4thlinechecker, man that was some kind of performance by Boston! If they’re rusty, I hope that the Kings can get some of that same rust next year! I hope that Tim Thomas can stay hot because it’s been a long time coming for the B’s.

  • jet

    Wonder if dad goes by Anthony.

  • variable

    look…

    these blogs should never cross over into one’s personal life…

    anthony(y) is a great example of someone who you might not agree with most of the time, but he has never crossed over into the world of non-hockey related insults and gratuitous conjecture…if anything, his gratuitous comments go after the same familiar targets: d.l. and t.m….and our hockey proctor, rich, has warned him and others, accordingly, when they don’t mix it up and continuously spew the same rhetoric…

    as much as i might disagree with johnny law school on much of the hockey “knowledge” he is eager to preach and blog about, i’m not one to call him out on any of his personal endeavors…and, quite honestly, wish him well in all other of his worldly/life pursuits…as i do to others whom i disagree with (few others on this site) when it comes to having a conversation about hockey and the kings…

    but he does cross the line…by calling everybody names and, in not so many words, the equivalent of stupid…

    again…this whole thing started because i called his nash trade scenario ridiculous…he retorted by calling me ridiculous…(huge difference)…and hasn’t looked back since…which has only been a span of about 72 hours…go figure…before then, i don’t think he ever commented on here…and if he did…it was hardly noticeable….which might explain his style…

    you also have to figure that he approaches these “friendly” chats on this site very aggressively, fearing…much like in competitive sports like mixed martial arts, that backing down or showing remorse for his actions, is a sign of weakness, error and defeat…

    so…as far as hockey sense and the ability to articulate accurately and fairly…yr probably not going to get that from him, because it’s not what he’s here for…

    and that’s my only contention with people like him…(again…in a hockey blog/chat sense…not in real life)…that his motives to participate in a friendly discussion are nil…he wants all the adulation, authority and respect here without using common courtesy…and, if you “dare” disagree with him, his first reaction is to try to bully you with an aggressive assault of name calling until you fall into submission or get so frustrated that you stoop down to his blogging level…and if you call him out on his conduct, he becomes dismissive and allegorical…

    but that’s cool…he’s showing his true hockey colors and civic skills…let alone, his one-dimensional hockey sense, with every post…

    there have been times (during the last 72 whirlwind hours) that when the fandamonium of winning people over to his side of the rink ceases, that he is capable of displaying his point of view poignantly…i still will never understand someone trying to insult their way in their pursuit of accolades, approval and respect….it’s not going to happen, especially here with this group…

    but if someone’s blogging like it’s a MMA fight, well then…i suppose this is what yr going to get…

    so…like with everybody else here…you grow accustomed to what to expect…and, even though it only has been about three days and unless there’s a drastic sea change in chat philosophy, we know what to expect from mr. khannon81…

    and since that’s the case, there’s really not much more to discuss…i wish him well in what ever he gets from what ever he decides to do here…but people like me are going to call him out every time he crosses that line of public chat decency and etiquette…

    in a very large way, i bet he gets extreme satisfaction that i and others have spent so much time addressing him and his actions…

    so, just like with the television…you can turn the channel…on this blog, you can just skip his posts…

    ahhh…i love how the beauty of freedom of speech works both ways…the freedom not listen…

  • khanon81

    Variable,

    Jose Conseco is a joke and probably won’t man up to fight Hong Man Choi, if he does, then he’ll get the beating he’s long deserved…

    Deadcatbounce,

    “kahnon81, as for your reference to gonads when you flamed me earlier, where are yours? All that aggression you spew on here would tend to indicate PED’s, so I bet they’re shriveled by now.”

    Amusing…

    I would easily beat down bondaduce- I’ll just take him down, submit him, ground and pound, or etc..

    4thlinechecker,

    I already have an account the LGK, thanks for the recommendation.

  • variable

    back to hockey…

    yep…boston looked great and on top of their game…

    however, i wouldn’t under-estimate carolina…i think it’s going to be a long, seven game series…

  • jet

    Variable, I have skipped over his posts since day one. I was making a joke off of 4th line’s post. Granted, it was not my best effort, but a joke none the less. I was not responding in anyway to something he said. I am not going to go back and his post, so I apologize if my post seemed out of context or offended any of the regulars.

  • 4thlinechecker

    Variable,
    I think that was the nicest way of telling someone to F’off that I have ever heard! Ha! I wish I could write like you, Quispy and rich……..I’m with you now, I gonna ignore him after this post.

    He does need to learn to make a better case for his arguments if the Law degree is going to work out for him. You cant just bully people into seeing things your way.

    Deadcat,
    I put some money on the Guins to win the cup right before they named Danny Bylsma the coach because it payed like 16 to 1 and I knew they would bounce back and have a chance. The Penguins look good, but the Bruins definitely look like they have all the pieces in place. They look like the team to beat.

    Did you guys see the hit on Hudler? That was grimey!.. I didnt think it was rediculously late but it was definitely high to the head……. Of course Carlisle said it was’nt dirty. I love the nasty side of the ducks, but they will screw themselves taking penalties like that against the wings…… I must say, I hate both those teams, but I would rather see the ducks beat detroit then lose to the hawks.

    We should all post our picks and keep track of who has the best record:

    Detroit in 6
    Nucks in 7
    Bruins in 5
    Guins in 7

  • 4thlinechecker

    Jet,
    I got your joke….. Ha! I wouldnt be surprised

  • AK47

    You guys are giving khanon exactly what he wants, attention.. Just let him comment all by himself and we can just reply to each others comment without mentioning khanon’s.. I think we only reply if he says something intelligent or proposes a good idea, other then that, just ignore the guy..

  • AK47

    You guys are giving khanon exactly what he wants, attention.. Just let him comment all by himself and we can just reply to each others comment without mentioning khanon’s.. I think we only reply if he says something intelligent or proposes a good idea, other then that, just ignore the guy..

  • variable

    JET…

    got the joke…and no need to apologize…

    now… i need to get back to watching my tivo’d stewart/colbert programs for the week…

  • variable

    4THLINE…

    you always give good insight, so the fact that you participate in these chats is good enough for me…:)

    AK47 (everybody’s favorite assault/hockey rifle)…

    my aforementioned salvo de manifesto was to address what you did in three succinct lines…

    so..again…you can take the long way…or short way…to the same destination of thought…

    always beware of curtilage…

  • khanon81

    Variable,

    I think its time for you to write a book based on ME. Also, I don’t think its healthy to dwell on the past… What I said 72 hours ago is history; live for the future, not the past.

    I have no problems or qualms with you, in fact, some of your posts are somewhat informative- they give me an idea of what the average King fan thinks about the team and NHL as a whole, and I thank you for that.

    On a slightly different note, some of you on this site act like this is your blog or you manage this blog and I really don’t appreciate it. I’m a member just like all of you, and I can state my opinions just like all of you. Don’t act like you run the show and don’t act like a child tattle telling to your daddy Rich.

    There, I said my piece, now back to hockey…

    Ducks in 6
    Vancouver in 6
    Carolina in 7
    Penguins in 6

  • variable

    KNANON81…

    great…

    we have used more words to get back to civility and the plaintiff forum since the magna carta of 1215…and again, in 1297…combined…!

    that’s a whole lotta’ jurisprudence…!

    about the book idea…hmmmmm…not enough info just yet…but if you (we) continue at this pace…we might have enough ammo to restart ye ol’ “crossfire” a la novak/kingsley…

    wed wings (as jim fox would pronounce) in 7
    nyuk, nyuk, nyuks in 7
    hurried canes in 7
    sphenisciformes in 7

    four seven game series…???

    maybe there should be a hockey team in vegas, ’cause i just hit the hockey jackpot…!

  • JDM

    Yay, back to hockey. Glad you all sorted out the nonsense, atleast for the time being.

    Wings in 6
    Hawks in 7
    Bruins in 5
    Penguins in 7

    I’ll go two further

    WCF: Hawks in 7
    ECF: Bruins in 6

    SCF: Bruins in 6

    (Subject to change pending round 2 ofcourse) :)

  • cristobal

    Hammond-

    Skewering Lombardi for destroying my favorite sports team is a no-no, but this crap is permissable?

    It feels like your censorship is personal and unfair after reading the comments (pissing contests) of late.

  • khanon81

    cristobal,

    Once again, stop trying to play the role of dictator. I was just responding to other comments. Get a life and learn what real hockey is. Get over it…

    I was expecting the pits/wash game to be much more intense and physical and it certainly wasn’t. A bit of a let down.

  • JDM

    cristo,

    I get the feeling Rich has either given up trying to monitor as we all know he doesn’t want to have to do, or he has been too busy this last week to peruse these comments. It also seemed to me like one of the things that bothered him the most was regardless of the thread, seeing the same post about DL or TM or Sully get everybody all riled up and steering everyone away from the topic of his original story. Personally I don’t blame you or anthony for that, because I blame reactionaries, as much as I do instigators, for the eventual outcome.

    khanon,

    You may not have been here a few weeks ago (although I seem to remember reading posts from you going back a few months) to remember Rich being very stern about keeping things civil here and threatening to ban some members. The result was no more anonymous posting.

    Since then anthony and cristobal (everyone’s favorite guys to get up in arms against for their harsh opinions) have cooled it down a bit in terms of repetitious bashing of whatever, though to their credit they always keep it hockey related.

    Go back and find those threads (Hammond made specific threads about this topic), read them and I think you’ll get a greater understanding of why people are over-reacting to you. Though to be fair, I’m not fully convinced that isn’t your goal in the first place ;).

    I don’t think its so much that you have really offended people so much as it that we who have been regulars for a while now have just been through all this before you started posting regularly. Your style of posting has evidently inflamed those feelings we figured were no longer permissable on Hammond’s site, as he has made abundantly clear.

    Like I said I have to assume he has been busy with the NBA playoffs or something for the Daily News and hasn’t really seen all this nonsense. Be assured though if it keeps up for a few more days and he does read it, he will be sending some emails or giving us some stern words about the kind of posts that have bumped this thread past the 100 count.

    ——

    As for the Caps/Penguins game, it was a pretty decent game, and I’m glad the Caps won. Varlamov is really impressive. Before today I didn’t think he could handle Crosby-Malkin, but I may be wrong on that one after seeing some of the breath-taking saves he made.

    While I hope the Caps win this series (because me no likey Crosby), I don’t think either of these teams have the defense to get out of the East. Boston will ruin either team.

    I hope that the Hawks play some damn defense today and put some nice big holes in Luongo.

  • 4thlinechecker

    That save Varlamov made on Sid was amazing….. That is going to be a great series…..

    Kentucky Derby was awesome with a 50-1 longshot winning, hopefully the Hawk/Nucks game will be good, and then maybe top it off with Ricky Hatton upsetting Manny Pacquiao. Pretty good sports day.

    As far as the other stuff, I apologize for not biting my tounge, I am sure Rich was just to busy to not give us all a scolding…..

    Cant we all just get along??? Ha!

  • khanon81

    4thlinechecker,

    Apology accepted…

    Ducks will win today 3-2 and will win 4 out of the next 5. I hope Brown takes a run at Lidstrom like he did at the other guy (can’t seem to remember his name nor do I care to remember).

    DL is the best GM we’ve had and TM is probably the best coach we’ve had as well. Go Kings GO!

  • AK47

    I want Valtteri Filppula :(

  • khanon81

    I want Bobby Ryan, Ryan Getzlaf, Correy Perry, and all of the Duck’s D-men.

    I seriously cannot stand Holmstrom. He’s such a cheap player, cries to the refs way too often. In fact, he reminds me of a bigger version of Avery that won’t/can’t fight- typical Euro. I hope somebody takes a hard run at him and teaches him a stern lesson.

    As DL said, watching European hockey is like watching paint dry. What a great line.

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