Kings in K.C.

Oh no, here come all the rumours.

This Balsillie situation has the potential to get very ugly.

I nearly spit up my Dr. Pepper when the home page loaded with the headline Kings in KC. God, that scared the jeebus out of me.

Under NHL rules, can a company that owns an NHL team own a venue occupied by another NHL team? Seems like a slight conflict of interest.

this is actually more important for the wangers (isles) franchise, as they struggle to keep the lighthouse project alive...

it's the wangers who would be the most likely candidate to relocate to k.c....then maybe the coyotes...

This was reported/rumored in the New York papers about a month ago. The Coyotes bankruptcy is interesting. If Basiilie tries to buy the team, can he get a job to allow him to move a useless asset (Phoenix NHL team) to somehwere else to make it worth something? Could be litigated forever.

WE DID IT! ESCHE COMES THROUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
US UPSETS FINLAND

I'm under the impression that Balsillie wants to buy the Coyotes contingent on whether he can move them to Ontario, but the thought that the Phoenix francise could relocate to KC under different management did cross my mind. Apparently, the NHL nor the owners want Balsillie as a partner.

Ah yes…

Jim Balsillie! Does anyone else find the following sequence of events a bit smelly?

Middle of the season, discussion begins out of the blue about the viability of a second franchise in the Greater Toronto area. The NHL is forced to come out and deny that there are any plans to expand/transfer a franchise, etc. to that region. Much is made about the L.A./O.C.’s ability/inability to ‘support’ two NHL level teams. There are a few whispers that Toronto won’t allow any competitor in the region.

All this BEFORE the ECHL Phoenix Roadrunners pending bankruptcy, the rumors start about money problems in Coyoteland (denied at the time), the NHL has to move to support Phoenix during the stretch run, and the NHL does in fact pay off undisclosed creditors in exchange for the right to ‘control’ the movement of the Coyotes’ franchise.

Then—In the midst of negotiations between the NHL and the Coyotes’ owner—suddenly Phoenix files for bankruptcy… and, out of the smoke drifts Jim Balsillie, who promptly announces he’s making an outrageous offer for the Coyotes contingent on moving to Southern Ontario.

So, the Commissioner—now at a roundtable of Commissioners covered by the Wall Street Journal—finds himself dismissing Balsillie in favor of the Season Ticket Holders of the Coyotes, effectively turning down Balsillie’s very lucrative deal after removing the Coyotes’ owner from all management decisions. There will be a Bankruptcy judge to decide the fates of the Coyotes, the current owner and Balsillie… and, the NHL finds itself in a very interesting place:

Do they ultimately accept Balsillie’s offer, moving Wayne Gretzky’s team from Phoenix to the ‘Southern Ontario’ area while infringing on the league’s most wealthy and powerful franchise? No question the area could support two teams, while creating an instantaneous rivalry. That, of course, would imbalance the league East>West, worsening the travel requirements and costs out West. However, that would help the league monetarily with its infusion of RIMM cash, and give it a seventh Canadian team.

Or, do they find another way out/another suitor (hard to do in this economic environment, unless Russian KHL-affiliated Oil money seems attractive)? That would keep the Coyotes where they were, keep the League in ‘balance’ geographically, keep Balsillie outside looking in AND keep the Blue-Blood Toronto franchise in sole control of its territory.

Suppose this has all been an orchestrated ploy, by the League, the Coyotes’ owner and Balsillie? It seems to me that the real hang-up is the Toronto Maple Leafs’ territorial rights, and what it would cost to pay them off. The Commish HAS to protest, and seem to protect the rights of the ticket holders. Now, with the Coyotes’ bankruptcy, the League’s hand is seemingly forced. As long as the judge rules that a Balsillie sale is in the best interest of the Coyotes’ creditors, the impediment of the Leafs’ rights takes second place to the sale. Not only that, Mr. Bettman’s anti-relocation stance is protected during the deal, the bad guy in the press being the former owner of the Coyotes.

All that is now needed is the dollar amount required to get the Leafs to surrender their stranglehold on their territory—money that Balsillie will readily pay to get into the exclusive little NHL Boys’ Club.

I feel sorry for the Phoenix Coyotes’ fans. This one’s a no-brainer—the ‘Yotes are history in Phoenix.

The only alternative to Southern Ontario, by the way, is Las Vegas...

...Where, by coincidence, the NHL is holding the 2009 NHL Awards ceremonies this year. All they need is an NHL level 22,000 or so seat arena. How long do you think it would take to build one?

I feel sorry for the Kansas City area fans, too. They've GOT an arena, all dressed up but no date for the NHL ball. Still, the AHL needs Western Cities... How 'bout the Monarchs moving to Kansas City? That's not too far from the Iowa Chops AHL franchise.

Ah yes, the twisted plans 'O mice and men...

BakoCAcameraGuy, you must have meant the Phoenix Coyote "fan". (Grin!) But don't the Buffalo Sabres also have a territorial claim if they want to relocate the Coyotes franchise to southern Ontario?

Yep, they get some of that money, too...

Haven't heard that they are against the move/creation of a franchise there, though.

Haven't heard anything, either, but it would seem logical to me that Buffalo would feel much more threatened by another team in its territory than the Leafs would, especially as they're considered a smaller market.

That's the strange thing about those early rumors this year--heard little about Buffalo, heard a LOT about Toronto saying no.

To me, it always should've been Las Vegas: first pro team there, Western City, a foothold...

But then, there's Balsillie. How can the NHL keep all that Blackberry money out forever, if it wants in? The challenge is to make all the recalcitrants happy--and, keep the Commish in his job.

If I remember correctly, the feasibility study/report suggested a second team in northern Toronto. It wouldn't be any closer to Buffalo than the Leafs already are so would not likely affect draws at Sabres games. Putting a team in Hamilton, on the other hand, would potentially hurt both teams, and probably Buffalo more so.

Of course, one solution would be to:

Let Balsillie move the Coyotes to northern Toronto + move the Isles to Las Vegas or Kansas City...

Geographical balance, East-West...

Great Post Bako.

Kings move to Kansas City and Coyotes move to Staples! There I said it! This way we can have a new GM that is always rebuilding and get Wayne back.
I never liked the Jobing arena anyway.

BAKO and others...

yeah...this is definitely a way to buy yr way into the NHL and try to leverage a quick-fix to all of the problems and mismanagement of jerry moyes' ownership...but there's just one problem for balsillie...:

IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN FOR HIM. HE WILL NOT OWN A FRANCHISE AS LONG AS BETTMAN AND/OR DALY ARE IN CHARGE/COMMISSIONERS...PERIOD.

balsillie has tried this bully/mr. burns approach way too many times...with nashville, pittsburgh, buffalo...and he's pissed of bettman and co. so many times with his backdoor strategies that it would be unreasonable not to believe that he's public prospected owner enemy number one...he shows no signs of civility and/or willingness to make a concerted effort to fit into the courtship process...

yes...he's forcing bettman's hand...and he's trying desperately to usurp bettman's...and the other owners, mind you...authority by now trying to have this matter settled in his favor through litigation...

if it wasn't for his extremely arrogant "i'm richer than you and i want what i want" approach, balsillie would probably be a very good...if not...great owner...

he's also kidding himself if he thinks he's the only alternative for the league and coyotes...

- jerry bruckheimer has been desperate to buy and build a franchise in las vegas for many years now...if anybody has been patient and has swayed away from the ex parte approach it's been him...and he is waaaaay more deserving to at least get an opportunity to do so before balsillie does...

- another jerry...reinsdorf...would probably keep the team either in the u.s....remaining in arizona somewhere, possibly k.c. (although the wangers have their radar locked there if the lighthouse project falls through), or perhaps another west coast location (dountful since bruckheimer has dibs)...

another huge element to this whole boondoggle is that bettman hates relocating franchises and doesn't want to crap all over the coyote/arizona fan base...

if anything, balsillie's outlandish offer of over $200mil will probably escalate reinsdorf and his peoples offer to match or somewhat be in the ball park...what will make it more attractive to the league...and maybe even the magistrate who will rule over the eventual bankruptcy proceeding and subsequent sale...is that reinsdorf is fine with leaving the team in arizona...

but one thing that the league and bettman have to stop stalling on is that the idea of another franchise in the toronto area will not work...
uh...boys...even my 6 year-old niece could figure out that having two NHL teams there would not only work, but work quite economically well for all...the kings got $25 million dollars in annual protection payments when the quacks moved in only 32 miles away...you would have to figure that that amount is a paltry sum if a second team were to occupy that part of ontario...i don't think buffalo would be hurt either, as they have been thwarting a large fan base legion around the eastern part of canada for years...

in a weird way...there's a scenario in which all parties could be happy and everyone could get what they want:

- bettman and co....no matter how "good" their intentions are in keeping the franchise in arizona...should really accept the fact that it's been a disaster and move on...they should allow a relocation to any other viable and tested place...whether or not it upsets the balance of the conferences...or whether or not it alienates that region as a whole...they'll get over it...if hartford can (ahhhh...another possible relocation), they could, too...

- reinsdorf eventually puts in a bid that rivals balsillie's and keeps the coyotes there, at least for the next few seasons,possibly, as long as 5 years...and then waits for some of the other teams in dire straits to fold or be contracted...yes...i mentioned the "c" word...

- balsillie goes back to school and takes a series of diplomacy classes...he then couples his interest in owning a NHL team with another prospected owner and gets off his high horse to accept a limited, minority partnership/ownership agreement...he can only do so if many other things fall into place...:
you have to figure bruckheimer will get his shot real soon...you also have to figure that if the economy continues in this direction, not only is contraction a possibility, but a reality...but balsillie can and will never, never be a majority franchise owner as long as bettman and co. are running things...he has to take a backseat early on in hopes that time heals all wounds and/or the eventual retirement of bettman and his cronies...i suggest he gains some patience because it's going to be awhile, if you ask me...

if that becomes the inevitable case, one of the possible 8-10 franchises that are already in trouble or heading towards series trouble, can and should be relocated to toronto for all parties universal economic interests and for the betterment of the league...

so...this would allow everyone to be happy...perhaps with the exception being the ultimate disapproval of coyote fans who are going to get screwed in the long run no matter what scenario comes to fruition...

bettman, whether or not you like him or not, is a very smart business man and likes to conduct things in the public eye as clean cut as possible...i don't think he's unreasonable in asking a super rich investor to play the game right and go through all the correct channels in pursuing a franchise...some would argue that he should drop the pomp and circumstance in lieu of doing what's right economically for the league...and if bullies like balsillie want in and are willing overpay to quench their bloodlust, so be it...

but the NHL is not MLB...and i think that's a reasonably huge concern of bettman in that he doesn't want anything close to a new york yankees ownership in the league...we have a salary cap and they don't...

so maybe the best way to solve this whole thing is that you have hope that balsillie starts to become a florida marlins fan...and offers them a never-ending buffet...

To quote the Hockey News:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/26002-Campbells-Cuts-Dont-underestimate-The-Commish-in-BettmanBalsillie-war.html

"And what nobody should forget is the commissioner has the powerful Toronto Maple Leafs on his side. It has been said in this corner many times and will be said again: this is all about the Maple Leafs and preserving their monopoly over the most fertile bed of hockey revenues on the planet.

The Leafs do not want to give up their monopoly and when you look at the situation objectively, why on earth would they? And just so you know, this has absolutely nothing to do with the Maple Leafs losing 18,000 fans who might choose to go to another arena to attend games. If that’s all it were about, there would be five NHL teams in the Greater Toronto Area.

This is all about preserving and continuing to monopolize all the ancillary revenues that come from owning a team, such as television, advertising and merchandising. The Leafs don’t want to give any of that up and they’ll do whatever it takes to continue to keep it.

And they’ll continue to have Bettman’s support and the support of their peers. That’s what makes Bettman so powerful and continues to give him the upper hand in these matters.

Does that mean Bettman will ultimately win? No, but it would be a mistake to underestimate him even with all these obstacles seemingly stacked against him."

Don't underestimate the power of the Toronto Maple Leafs. As the saying goes, 'Follow the Money'. The only problem is the entrance of an external legal force in the discussion, preserving the interests of those owed money by the Coyotes.

Unless there is an alternative suitor in the next 30 days, Balsillie may win.

Variable: 'IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN FOR HIM. HE WILL NOT OWN A FRANCHISE AS LONG AS BETTMAN AND/OR DALY ARE IN CHARGE/COMMISSIONERS...PERIOD.'

It will never happen for Balsillie as long as the Toronto Maple Leafs have anything to say about it, in my view... But suppose a large package of money is offered to all 28 other teams, as an entry royalty? Is Bettman really King? Or, is he just a Prince of Toronto?

Perhaps more important is what the article says about the salary floor--that the floor is considered too high for some teams, and if a revenue-producing team is introduced without revenue sharing, that would just drive up the floor.

This should be a very interesting summer for the NHL.

BAKO...

you...and ken campbell's article... make some very good points...

absolutely...toronto is really the key master and bettman/the league the gate keepers...

but i do think contraction is on the horizon...

and because of that, concessions might have to be had by all parties...including toronto...

i come from the opinion that initially, the maple leafs might take a hit on revenue...the monopoly they have will never be the same...
however, with another team in the mix, the poker ante and the take-in becomes that much larger...and subsequently, might provide them eventually with more residual and direct income than they think...

we should not overlook the indemnity fee situation...the $25 million the kings got is small potatoes...you would have to figure an annual amount of $50-100 million is not out of the question...

and i think that's really going to be the issue: how much financial protection will the league/new ownership pay the maple leafs to make it happen...

BAKO...you are sooooo right when you say a lot of this rides on this summer, trades during and after the draft and the salary cap floors/ceilings...there's so much uncertainty economically...and because of that, it might not seem immediately beneficial for the maple leafs, but in terms of the bigger picture/long-term revenue possibilities, it can be a huge windfall for the organization...

if that indemnity fee estimation is correct, would that be enough of a financial bridge to alleviate the run off of other revenues...? in my opinion, that fee alone would bankroll their team salaries and enable them to reap larger profits...

and does the addition of another ontario team actually make the television contract with the leafs that much more exclusive and drive up the fees...?

i think the concerns of "economic viability" for a second franchise are smoke and mirrors and code for giving the league more time in convincing the maple leaf organization that even though their monopoly will be broken, that they stand to earn more money eventually w/exclusivity and indemnity fees...

regardless...before anything happens...existing teams have to know what the cap floor/ceilings are going to be...

i forgot to mention another wealthy billionaire into the mix...dare i say mark cuban...?!?!?

if cuban...who has expressed tremendous interest in owning an NHL franchise...gets into the mix, you might see a bidding war from the likes of which we have never seen, since balsillie and cuban have what seemingly is an endless stream of revenues...

now since bettman comes from the NBA and talks to stern frequently enough, you gotta figure that cuban's chances might be slim, at best...

but don't discount him and balsillie joining forces and throwing an absurd amount of money to everyone...and as vito corleone said, "i'm gonna make him an offer that he can't refuse"...

you gotta wonder that if egos sometimes supplant economics and viability...

the NHL is straddling a very dangerous path...i just hope that all parties involve don't forget who makes this all possible...

we, the fans...!!!!!

V: "you gotta wonder that if egos sometimes supplant economics and viability...

the NHL is straddling a very dangerous path...i just hope that all parties involve don't forget who makes this all possible...

we, the fans...!!!!"

You've got that right, baby! What I worry about, more than anything, is the evolution of the NHL when one supreme power--the Toronto Maple Leafs--is allowed to make the decisions for a league of 26-30 teams based upon what is best for themselves. There will always be Horses A** Owners who fiddle and burn like Nero. But, one Supreme Team that doesn't understand there are other teams' interests to be represented can threaten the whole League. Unless the other owners can profit from the Phoenix Coyotes franchise shift/ownership change, why should they protect the interests of the Supreme Team (assuming this decision will come down to some kind of vote)? Antitrust exemptions in the U.S. could conceivably come into play here... Baseball was forced into revenue sharing; could the NHL? It seems insane that small-market NHL teams could actually take the position that less league revenue benefits them by lowering the salary floor. What would happen if the U.S. teams were somehow able to negotiate a seperate television contract, without the Canadian teams' participation? There can't be a League unless the League takes care of all its members, at least in part. Otherwise, what happened yesterday becomes reality, where individual teams take action to better themselves, without regard for the League. There is no doubt that the Coyotes' owner acted in his own best interest. But, if the League doesn't decisively act to protect his interest, why should he (the owner) be constrained? How can the other owners know with certainty that the NHL won't let them fail when the time comes?

Toronto's best interests are represented when Balsillie is kept at bay. But, if funds that can help the small market teams are pushed away to protect those interests...

Certainly, the NHL kept Phoenix afloat this last year. Are they willing to let 2 or 4 teams die so that Toronto gets richer? That is the question posed by Contraction. If that question is judged not by the League or by the Fans, but by a JUDGE...

...Will the Judge rule to let Phoenix die in order to protect Toronto's profits? I think not. Therefore, the NHL best be ready with an alternative to Balsillie by the end of this month, or else be vulnerable to restraint of trade arguments in a U.S. court.

is it just me or do we have some of the best/smartest commenters of any sports blog?

The judge may say that a sale is in the best interest of the Yotes creditors, but I do not think the judge can say that NHL has to allow a move.
Second, there are a number of teams close to the edge. Why should the Yotes have the benefit of the Toronto location over the other struggling teams?

Also, the Cap has to come down with the Floor. Otherwise, the NHL will lose parity and thus total revenues.

Last point, is that the players association will want a place at the table in these discussions. The last thing they will want to see is contraction.

BAKO...

completely agree...

no team should hold the league hostage...i think the need is there in toronto...

also...something we both haven't even mentioned yet...:

the NFL has: NY Giants, NY Jets, Buffalo Bills, etc...

MLB has: NY Yankees, NY Mets, Chicago Cubs, Chicago White Sox (8 miles apart), Cleveland Indians, Cincinnati Reds, Pittsburgh Pirates, Philadelphia Phillies, LA Dodgers, LA Angels, San Francisco Giants and San Diego Padres, etc...

the NBA has: 4 Californian teams - LA Lakers/Clippers, Golden State Warriors, Sacramento Kings, etc...

and our beloved NHL has: Pittsburgh Penguins, Philadelphia Flyers and three New York teams - Buffalo Sabres, Ney York Islanders and New York Rangers...not to mention LA Kings, Anaheim Quacks and San Jose Sharks, etc...

some examples are better than others...but my point is that there's precedence...and if the demand is there...which clearly, there is...you should slake that thirst and accommodate the fan's desires...

most of these teams are thriving and stand alone, in spite of saturation, proximity in one's own state and enough of a fan base...

i think this is an argument that not even the maple leafs will be able to thwart...it's going to happen...it's just a question of who the owner(s) will be and when it's wise to do so...

SHAKES...

and i agree with you, too...:)!!!

Shakes--Double Ditto!!

Meanwhile, two more goals for Jimmy Neutron.

variable- don't forget that Toronto already has a second pro hockey team, the Marlies, and there is another AHL team just down the road in Hamilton. Attendance for the Marlies is pretty poor (averages less than 50% capacity and is less than league average). Other earlier Toronto AHL incarnations have also not fared well. Sure it's not the NHL, but it is cause to wonder about Toronto's capacity for two pro hockey teams. Also, aside from the NHL and AHL teams in Southern Ontario/Eastern NY, you also have all the teams from the OHL in thhe region to take in to account.

Curiously, there are only 3 AHL teams in Canada at present, and 2 of those are in Southern Ontario. Considering that hockey is much bigger in Canada than the states, one would be inclined to think there would at least be a good # of AHL teams up there. I think the dearth of Canadian AHL/NHL teams compared to the U.S. hints at a larger financial and logistical component to the situation in canadian markets than i'm sure we are aware of.

Quisp- lokti's been 1st star in 2 of the games the finals so far, and was 2nd in another. Nice to see he's really taking over and still elevating his game. Can't wait to see him in camp.

A team in Kansas before Seattle?!?!?!? If that was to happen I would personally fly to Toronto and slap Bettman. If Anything let the Coyotes move back to Winnipeg, or even to Halifax.

In getting back to the original topic of this thread, it'll be interesting to see the Isles first overall pick in action against some of our young guys, if he plays. Hope Dipietro doesn't get hurt again, but I'm already of the belief that poor health will prevent him from seeing the end of his contract.

After reading all of these comments, I can't believe you guys can't grasp what is so obvious to the rest of us.............it was Colonel Mustard, with the candlestick, in the kitchen!!!

I don't see how that market can handle another franchise.....By putting the franchise in Southern Ontario, you are directly affecting the Sabres. they may not have said much during the process publicly, but you can bet they've been singing in Bettman's ear all along. Their fan base is very small..and a lot of fans travel from Ontario to go see them.
I also can't see Anshitz(sp) building an arena in KC with no (wink-wink) agreement that a franchise will be moving into the building. We might hate Anshitz, but he's not one of the richest men in the world for nothing. He's not building that arena on a hope and a prayer...or to play 1 lousy exhibition game a year.

Perhaps the best idea would be to contract 2 teams and move them to the KC area. I hate the idea of moving the Islanders off Long Island, but contracting them and Phoenix, would make the league stronger and put a good product in KC. How long that city will support an NHL franchise is another story. I have my doubts.
Let's face it...the NHL grew when it never should have. They took the easy $$ and didn't care long term what would happen.

Nyking fan- it's likely the reason Buffalo isn't as concerned/vocal is that most of their Ont fans come from just across the border from Niagra or a little further from St. Cats. Buffalo is much closer than Toronto, so if they're not making the 1 1/2-2 hr trip to Toronto for the leafs, they're not going to make it for another team. I think you underestimate the size of Buffalo's fan base- I lived in their area for many years and its pretty solid. Still, there really shouldn't be a second team in Toronto. For one thing, there should be a team in Quebec City before Toronto gets a second.

The stadium in KC is already built and open, and they're in process of building one in Vegas, that should be ready next year. I wouldn't be surprised to see expansion to 32 teams in the near future. As you alluded to, there are some very rich and powerful people involved here, so they'll probably get what they want- teams in each of these stadiums.

J

I'll defer to your knowledge of the Buffalo area.

Quebec City..Didn't we go down this road before?

I realize that the arena has already been built...I'm just saying that he wouldn't have built it without some promises from the league regaqrding putting a team in there.

Nykingfan--

I believe that the NHL expansion into the U.S. South and West is a great idea, and will eventually be successful in most U.S. locations. From personal observations:

I live in one of the most conservative, rural cities in the U.S.--Bakersfield, CA. Hockey is perfect for the Red state Libertarian lifestyle. The game is hard hitting, it stresses personal responsibility out on the ice, the players (for the most part) are quiet and team oriented, and the violence is face-to-face, man-to-man, often with bare-fisted confrontations. Attendance in Bakersfield has been high for the ECHL until this year down the stretch, with a drop of about 1500-2000 per game. Phoenix may be an exception, but the Phoenix demographics are slightly different in California. The Phoenix ECHL team had attendance problems before this year, and the recession killed them. Phoenix real estate prices have tanked, just like in California, but the blue-collar population is larger in central California. It’s the blue-collar population (with individual exceptions) that goes to hockey games. Stockton, Bakersfield and Ontario have solid attendance levels despite the bad economy, and are poised to thrive.

These are the worst of times, and hockey expanded during the best of times. Attendance may be down, but not out (like in Phoenix). Things will get better, necessarily. The NHL business model for expansion is sound, in my humble opinion.

I'm not sure of the wisdom of putting a franchise in Kansas City because they already tried once and failed. Haven't they learned from the situation in Atlanta? I do like the idea of putting a team in Seattle, but wonder if they'd have enough fan support. The basketball team failed and the M's, from what I understand, had some pretty bad times in the past, so wonder if the NHL in Seattle would thrive.

Looking at attendance figures, this isn't what doomed the Nordiques (which is somewhat hard to believe since they were soooo bad there for most of the last years in Quebec), so they could support a team potentially without any concerns of impacting neigbors (Montreal is sufficiently far away). If a seventh Canadian team is financially viable, my point is why not put it in a large market that doesn't already have a NHL team.

Yes, I agree, there probably is some level of assurance that at some point both KC and Vegas will get teams (though it might be NBA, not NHL)

Bako

Good points....
I assume that attendance was down in Bakersfield late in the season due to the economy. I'm also going to assume that ticket prices are a lot less than what an nhl game would cost. I'm not sure how many people in today's climate have the extra cash to lay out for hockey games? If you're moving a team into a new city, the expectation would be that the games would be sellouts..or very close.

In a good economy, things would obviously be different, but even then, I'm not sure if enough people are willing to spend disposable income as freely as they used to.
It's all speculation on my part.

-J re Loktionov,

Agreed. Here are last night's highlights: http://kwisp.wordpress.com/2009/05/07/windsorbrampton-game-4-highlights-jimmy-neutron-nets-two-in-the-third/

"I also can't see Anshitz(sp) building an arena in KC with no (wink-wink) agreement that a franchise will be moving into the building. We might hate Anshitz, but he's not one of the richest men in the world for nothing. He's not building that arena on a hope and a prayer...or to play 1 lousy exhibition game a year. "

I dont believe he did have an agreement with the NHL due to the simple fact that they were caught with their hands in the cookie jar so to speak with trying to lure the Pens to KC. I was also under the understanding Anshultz would have to sell the arena to the proposed buyer of the NHL team coming into it.

Also with talk of PHX possibly moving to southern ontario and the conference mis-alignment, I think I have an idea about how to re-align. The West already plays in all 4 time zones in conference play while the east only plays in one. Why not make it fair and divide the Conferences into North & South. I think its at least worth looking into.

South West
Ducks
Kings
Sharks
Stars
Avs

South Central
Blues
Preds
Hawks
KC (Isles)
Columbus

South East
Canes
Caps
Thrashers
Lightning
Panthers

North West
Canucks
Flames
Oilers
Wild
Red Wings

North Central
Leafs
Sens
Habs
Sabres
Blackberrys

North East
Rangers
Devils
Bruins
Pens
Flyers

Yea its crazy, but I just thought I would throw it out there at least

-J...

yr absolutely right about buffalo and it's fan base...it's the hockey equivalent in distance to the dodgers and padres...they would not be directly affected by a subsequent 2nd toronto team...

DEADCAT...

just a reminder that the seattle supersonics were relocated because of the failure of the league and city to come to terms about how and who would be responsible for the building of a new luxury box arena...if i remember correctly, there was even a ballot measure during a city election that was defeated that, if passed, would have granted the franchise tax dollars to do so...

i also know that seattle has been stumbling trying to fill the void the sonics had left since and have been lobbying to get a hockey franchise, as well...

whether the league wants to acknowledge it or not, the following is a list of teams that are in trouble:

tampa bay lighting
florida panthers
atlanta thrashers
nashville predators
new york islanders
columbus blue jackets
and, of course...the pheonix coyotes...

i, personally, would like to see no less than 4 teams be contracted...which 4 i would chose is debatable...you have to think the southern-most cities would be in the most trouble...but if you eliminate all of them, you run the risk of abandoning a whole geographical area of the country...

after the coyotes...i would put the thrashers and predators as the next possible customers put into the NHL bail-out program...the isles have charles wang and relocation is really the bigger possibility than contraction...

however, realistically, bettman and co. will do everything in their power to keep all these teams in the league and financially stable for a myriad of reasons...

but he shouldn't...contraction should be strongly considered for some...again, for a myriad of reasons, as well...

i think as kings fans, we are safe from these scenarios...but...and i know this might cause a small brush fire here on this site with suggestions/opinions from everybody...it's more likely that AEG will either sell the team outright or take a minority ownership interest...IF...AND IT'S A BIG "IF"...all the development and entertainment outlets in downtown that they are immersed in don't live up to their financial expectations...tim leiweke and company have invested rather mightily and substantially in downtown...i'm not predicting anything as of yet...but if this financial downturn continues for a longer period of time than expected, you might see an AEG garage sale...something i know that many of you would welcome...

variable, thanks for enlightening me on the Sonics' situation. Don't really follow other sports, so I only know what I hear, and I don't go out of my way to discuss other sports. I guess that Seattle would have the same issue that a Southern Ontario team would have in that they'd have to pay territorial rights fees to the Canucks. Seems a bit odd to me, though, as I think Seattle is a few hours drive away...

Re: Seattle-based franchise:

The state of washington has 4 WHL hockey teams, 5 if you include Portland Ore. Now, They draw about 3000 fans/game in seattle. Why so low you ask? because its a pro market, and they dont want to support juniors. They need an arena if they are to move a team to Seattle, which is not possible because that is what doomed the sonics. And before you say Key arena can temporarily hold a team, you cant see shit from the upper level. 1/3 of the ice is cut off from the sightlines. I would love it, i live in Spokane and would instantly support them, and it would give the canucks a true rival. But lets be realistic, unless AEG invests in Seattle (which it wont, everything was built for the world fair back in the 80's era) there is no chance.

NYkings - your gut feeling is correct. The boomers have moved from their consumption years to their saving years (pre-retirement). The group moving into their consumption years is just not as large a group as the boomers. So, overall spending in all categories will decrease. Since hockey has the ability to change its pay scale, there may be a lesser impact on the sport.

I believe since the Kings owners were (are) in real estate, they picked up on the economic downturn before most of us. So, did AEG allow DL to work on a full rebuild to conserve cash during the downturn or did they believe that a full rebuild was the best way to make the team a cup contender over the next couple of decades? Of course, I am just happy the Kings went with the full rebuild. Phoenix tried to accelerate their rebuild last summer by bringing in Jokinen with disastrous results. Imagine where we would be without Quincey and Green.

jet--

Theoretically, ALL SPORTS will see a downturn due to demography. The younger generations just do not have the same affiliation with sports that the older generations do... and, I mean participation sports vs. spectator sports.

That in mind, I have been blown away the last 3 years with the 7,000-8,000 near sell-out crowds in Bakersfield for ECHL level hockey... until, the recession took away 1500-2000 per game. Our demographics are blue-collar, mixed race, 20-40 years old with small families. Just have to say that the demand is there... and, it will come back as folks come back into disposable income.

Jayrew, here are the attendance stats for last season WHL:

2007-2008 WHL Attendance Figures (Avg. Fans/Home Game)
1.Calgary 9,071
2.Vancouver 8,717
3.Spokane 6,557
4.Everett 6,424
15.Seattle 4,082

For someone who lives in Washington, I don't think you know your states geography very well. Seattle and Everett are 20 miles apart. That's like driving from Santa Monica to Downtown LA. Seattle and Everett together draw 10,506 for WHL games, and that is for Junior League Hockey, not Major league sports!

The former Seattle Sounders where not the Majors, they were the minor league team and they enjoyed great success.

Yeah Spokane draws 6,557 fans a game, but really, what is there out in Spokane to go cheer for other than the WSU Cougars?

What doom the Sonics was the owner had one thing in mind when he bought them- to move to Oklahoma, he had no intention of staying in Seattle. Key Arena was an easy excuse and our local leaders didn't do much to help. Yes Key Arena sucks, but that isn't the lone reason the Sonics left.