Kings’ prospects ranked No. 4

In its annual spring organizational rankings, Hockey’s Future ranked the Kings No. 4 in terms of prospects, behind St. Louis, Montreal and Nashville. The site lists the Kings’ top five prospects as Oscar Moller, Thomas Hickey, Jonathan Bernier, Colten Teubert and Teddy Purcell. I would consider it a bit shaky to call Moller a “prospect,” since he essentially spent a full season in the NHL, but that’s splitting hairs.

Hockey’s Future also took a look back at the Kings’ 2004 draft class and said it “appears to be one of the worst in recent memory.” Can’t argue that one…

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  • josh e.

    key losses to graduation include-doughty, harrold, quick, simmonds, quincey and JON ZEILER???? really????

  • Ersberg

    Odd. I checked this site last week and they had us at second behind STL.

  • variable

    yeah…i would put us at #2 or #3…
    i also would have put teams like washington and atlanta a bit higher…

    the 2004 analysis is dead on…what a doozy…!

  • Irish Pat

    Ersberg,

    These are updated rankings. The Kings at #2 was for last year’s rankings.

    I saw this and I’m still surprised they have the King’s prospects at #4. Montreal and St. Louis have good prospects, but Nashville? Better than the Kings crop? Puh-leeze! I realize I’m biased so I’ll just end it there… but really… puh-freakin-leeze.

  • anthonyy

    No Zeiler , No Harrold on that list.
    Those were DL’s elite.

  • Ersberg

    Anthony-

    That’s probably not too far from the truth. Watching other teams and seeing where they are, I just can’t help but think how far off we really are from greatness. Over half of our guys wouldn’t even scratch the bottom of the third or fourth line on most teams.

    My apologies for the negativity, but it’s reality.

  • anthonyy

    Thank you Ersberg.
    Right on.

  • Buster

    With Zeiler and Filier out we should be moving UP, not down.

  • KingsFan

    Hockey’s Future is an amateur-run site. The writers know no more about hockey than the people commenting here.

  • darko25o

    It makes no sense to have these ranking done prior to the draft.
    and if we keep the #5 pick, we’ll be a no-brainer for #1 on that list

  • 28 KINGS

    Ersberg wrote:”Watching other teams and seeing where they are, I just can’t help but think how far off we really are from greatness.Over half of our guys wouldn’t even scratch the bottom of the third or fourth line on most teams.”

    Which teams? You mean like Pitts, Chicago, Washington? Do you know what all those teams have in common…they all sucked for long periods of time and rebuilt through the draft before getting to where they are. What else do they have in common…they all got the number 1 pick, and in the Penguins case 2 (Crosby,Fluery) and the 2nd overall picks in Malkin and Staal.

    And the same can be said with anyone else’s prospects making it on the 3rd or 4th line.

    anthonyy said:

    “No Zeiler , No Harrold on that list.
    Those were DL’s elite.”

    Did you even read the whole article? Both guys were listed under graduation.
    Elite?
    This right here show how little you know, especially hockey.

  • Chuck

    Most of the follow up comments think that LA should be 2nd, and Montreal is a joke at #2, they shouldn’t be higher than 6th. No offense to John Zeiler, but he’s not a key loss to graduation, neither is Harrold, but he’s more “key” than Zeiler.

  • Aaron

    Hey Rich,

    Does Dean have any interest in offering Brady Murray a contract?

    Murray, 24, put up very good numbers in the Swiss-A League this year. 36games 26goals 15assists 41points during the regular season. He lead the entire league in goals scored while missing 14 games. He’s a great skater with a motor that never stops.

    I think he would make for an interesting option on the 4th line.

  • Quisp

    Hockey’s Future considers a player a prospect until they’ve played — I forget exactly — 65 games, I think, for skaters. So it’s just a technical issue re Moller still being a prospect, as well as the fact that Zeiler has graduated.

    It’s a pretty great site, Hockey’s Future, even more so if it’s “amateur-run.”

  • number 6

    Although it seems I’m criticizing Dave Taylor (maybe I am – someone had to be responsible for the appalling scouting), if nothing else one at least has the feeling that DL is bringing in better prospects than the old scouting team. I’m Not being negative, but can you IMAGINE when you see Detroit? Granted they’ve brought in some former 1st round UFA’s but most of their stars were drafted Very low in each draft relatively speaking. Every year they seem to find someone. Anyone can make a mistake on a high 1st round choice, but one entire year woithout anyone?! I don’t believe any professional franchise can afford that… and one asks, how did detroit find Filpula, Franzen, Zetterberg Kronwall, Datsyuk and now Helm and Ada whatever his name is. Geez, Ersberg, I know what you mean. I’ve been feeling for some time that while I DO think the Kings will improve for sure (especially depending on what DL does this summer) I’m not as convinced as everyone else seems to be that they are ready for the playoffs. I hope they are, but I don’t see where they are automatically gonna be way better than last year. If Quick is any less solid than he was last year and/or if they have any key injuries (remember we essentially had almost no key injuries last year other than Fro for a bit) then it’s gonna be a very big jump. I’m convinced that St.L will be ahead of the Kings as they have Eric Johnson and Kariya back from injuries. Two potential stars that they don’t have to do anything to get on their team… and a young bunch of offensively talented players.
    Speaking of offense, that’s my other concern. Where are the Kings gonna get goals that they weren’t getting them last year?

  • AEG rulez

    Realisically, DL will need to make some moves to get scoring. The $11.50 sale (and other discounting) makes life challenging for the marketing folks going into this season with no recent track record of success. The depth of prospects gives DL more options to work with.

    Per Rich, it sounds like the #5 pick is in play. Add Frolov/JWTFJ/other prospects, and a needed top-end scorer may be arriving this month.

  • Ersberg

    “Which teams? You mean like Pitts, Chicago, Washington? Do you know what all those teams have in common…they all sucked for long periods of time and rebuilt through the draft before getting to where they are. What else do they have in common…they all got the number 1 pick, and in the Penguins case 2 (Crosby,Fluery) and the 2nd overall picks in Malkin and Staal.

    And the same can be said with anyone else’s prospects making it on the 3rd or 4th line.”

    Any of the teams that finished ahead of us, perhaps?

    We’re not talking the “top 3″ players in the league, considering those are generational players. I’m talking about players such as Neil from Dallas, and guys like Berglund and Perron from StL. I’m convinced we don’t have any prospects like that left in our tank. Voinov? Teubert? Hickey? Bernier? We’ll see. I’m not convinced the guys that cracked our line-up last season will be any better than most teams 3rd liners, other than Simmonds. Our talent pool is deep, yes, but with mediocrity. Solid prospects? Sure, but nothing spectacular.

    Do you honestly feel we have Cup potential with our current roster along with our prospects? I highly doubt it.

    The difference between the teams you mentioned, plus many others(VAN, CHI, MTL) is we chose guys that will be lucky to be franchise players(Hickey at 4th overall, for example)rather than guys that are the generational players, such as those you mentioned. Is that our GM’s(past and current) fault? Partially. Part of it is bad luck in that we weren’t able to select higher in the draft, due to our draft spot, bad decision making in selecting our draftee’s, or not following through on deals that could have landed us a better draft position.

    I’m not suggesting it’s the end our “Hockey world”, I’m simply stating our current management needs to aim higher in the next several drafts. 4th-5th overall and lower won’t get it done(most likely). 2nd-7th rounds are a complete crap shoot. DL will probably draft at 5th or trade the pick. What he should do is trade up and go for the more proven talent.

    Even if we sacrifice some roster guys, what we’ll get it return will have a greater chance at having a higher ceiling than most of what we currently possess.

    The only guys on our line-up that are showing true greatness are Doughty, Frolov, and occasionally Kopitar. Brown is a good franchise player, but even he would be no better than a 2nd liner on most teams, and 3rd on some.

    Look around us geographically in terms of other sports. Both MLB teams, the Lakers, and even the Clippers have solid FA’s. We go after guys like Goat, Calder, Clouts, Thornton, Nagy, etc. Those guys are complete crap and wouldn’t be touched by 95% of the league.

    Our management should strive to convince the great players LA is the city to play for, just like our neighbors to the north and south have done.

  • jet

    Ers- Ours neighbor to the south had an excellent base of second, third and forth line players when they were able to attract league leading players. San Jose was unable to keep Campbell last year, but it was more due to cap issues. To build a winning tradition (not season) you need to start from the bottom and find a place to improve every year. If you try and accelerate the process, then you will likely unravel like the Yotes this year.

    Regarding the 2007 draft, please say specifically the player that you would have drafted instead of Hickey. Please do not say I would have traded up, as none if the other teams would have traded without a huge package.

    I am not bashing you; I am just asking you to support your statement that management needs to do more with a specific example. I also do not want to see you fall into anthonyy’s painful world of constant despair.

  • Ersberg

    Jet-

    That’s easy.

    6. Edmonton Sam Gagner

    Right there.

    I get DL’s philosophy of “draft the best available”. Hickey has a higher ceiling than Sam G? I would have to disagree with that line of thinking.

    What I proposed in “trading up” is not accelerating the process; it’s making a statement you’re commited to a winning, and doing what it takes to succeed. You have to be simultaneously smart AND bold to be successful in this league(see Ken Holland).

    Our neighbors to the south came into the league in the ’90s, Jet, so they’ve managed to prove a team can be successful in a shorter amount of time than we have. No exception with SJ, either.

    Letting valuable(mostly offensive) UFA’s go isn’t a sign of strength in terms of attracting quality prospects and players, either.

    For example, risking a deal for a guy like Williams can be easily as problematic for us as letting Cammy go. It’s the same risk. We lost a prolific goal scorer in Cammy, traded a young talent in Sully, whilst losing a 2nd, and signed an older Williams.

    To a Kings fan, that seems very risky. Now, as fans, we’re asking to go out and spend money to sign a UFA like Gabs or trade the farm for a guy like Vinny? Why not just re-sign Cammy when we had the chance? It’s all offense. What I’m getting at is our tradition of how we manage our deals. It’s tit-for-tat. We give our right arm to aquire a left. We do a step forward and 1.5 back.

    We lose Vis and aquire Stoll and Greene. They’ve stabilized particular needs for the team. The problem is, we lost some serious offensive puck management on the back-end in Vis. Don’t get me wrong, it was a good move for us, but in the end, the deal changed us to be the same overall. We have a better defense, but we score less. Vis was an integral part of our puck-moving management on the back-end. I realize we dealt him, due to his age and the cap, but he wasn’t replaced, nor will he ever be.

    How are we going to score more goals by not retaining our offensive weapons? Frolov is our best offensive player, because he can generate goals without the need of other players. The other guys are just along for the ride. Brown is nice, but without playing along side guys we no longer have, his offense has suffered. No, his family stuff had nothing to do with it, either. Not having a solid puck-moving defense feeding the puck to the forwards, you lack a solid goal-scoring threat up front.

    I feel Kopitar will figure his game out, but again, as a fan, I’m not convinced the others will. I just don’t see the great “talent” on this team that others do. I see a bunch of guys that are average to above-average at best.

    As far as your other comment is concerned, I see myself as being a realist, and that I see a team that’s growing into an entity of mediocrity. I’m not approaching this from a state of despair, I’m merely stating that what I see developing is nothing more than average. We lack fire and talent in every sense of those words.

    Only time will tell.

  • Ersberg

    Jet-

    I didn’t really paint that good of a picture in terms of moves.

    Here’s what I’d do this season, and if all parties agreed:

    To LA
    2nd overall-Draft Tavares or Duchene

    To TB
    Greene
    5th overall
    Hickey
    +if need be

    Sign Johnson
    Sign Komisarek

    To LA
    Gagne

    To Philly
    Handzus(Not sure if they could afford it) or Stoll
    Ersberg(back-up to Emery or Biron)
    2nd round pick

    That would give us..

    Fro-Kopitar-Williams
    Gagne-Duchene/Taveres(If he is ready)-Brown
    Simmonds-Zus/Stoll-Purcell
    Moller-Boyle/Lewis-Clune(or another youngster)

    Doughty-Komisarek
    Quincy-Drewiske
    OD-Johnson

    Quick
    Bernier

  • NMKingsFan

    Ersberg–
    I know that TB and Philly don’t have the brightest bulbs for GM’s but their names are not Moe & Curly…
    While some of your points are valid, I cannot see TB or Philly making these trades unless Lombardi is pointing a gun at their head.
    You make it seem like all Lombardi has to do is snap his fingers and we make these trades and great UFAs flock to us….this is the real world and 29 other GM’s are trying their best to make their teams better and nothing comes easy in the NHL.
    It will be an interesting off season for the Kings and I am anxious to see what happens and I trust in Lombardi to get it done. No GM is perfect so we shall just have to see how it plays out until one of us “Inside the Kings” groupies gets named as GM of the Kings.

  • Ziggy

    ersberg-
    TB trade no thanks, Phi trade would never happen

    IMO Vinny will not be a King. Given DL’s numerous past references to fitting players into a coherent pln within the cap, Vinny salary is a complete killer. Yes he is a very good player. But he is also a very overpaid player.

    I think the #1 target for DL this summer is Kovalchuk. I know Waddell wants to resign him but he is exactly what the Kings need. Kovy and Fro together would be amazing.

    I think Gabs is a possibility but that really depends what the rest of the market looks like (something only a GM knows). If Gabs can be signed for a deal for less than 2 years then we take it. If not Kings don’t sign him.

    Altho he is on record saying he is trying to make a move, DL does not really have to make a trade this season. The Kings are not gonna win the cup this year. Their strength is in their farm system not on the big club. Why would you trade prospects before their peak value? For example, Teubert is still a relatively unknown prospect. He has no NHL experience, and has not even played in Manchester. Give the guy two years to develop and you get a player like Jack Johnson. The type of player teams vastly overpay to acquire. I would not be surprised at all to see DL wait on the big-ticket acquisition everyone is drooling about.

  • Ersberg

    NM-

    “You make it seem like all Lombardi has to do is snap his fingers and we make these trades and great UFAs flock to us..”

    That’s why added the bit “..if all parties agreed”. I’m from the opposite thinking in that I don’t think ANY of the big guns available want to play here. Ever. I do think we could get a guy like Gagne, though.

    I thought those deals we’re pretty fair, actually. I did state “+” if need be on the first one, and it’s not as if the GM proposed could or wouldn’t counter. I understand what you’re saying, however.

    As far as the groupie comment goes, I find it to be perfectly acceptable to disagree with what a particular person is doing/not doing for the team, just the same as it for you to agree with it. That’s why we’re here.

    I’m just hoping ownership starts to pay attention to what goes on or better yet, sells the team to an owner that cares. I really don’t believe there’s a person above Lombardi that follows what he does. Is there? Does AEG keep him in check? Do they care what deals we do/not do? I don’t know myself, but it seems as though they don’t.

  • Ersberg

    Zig-

    The TB trade was for the 2nd overall, not for Vinny. Or were you just referring to Vinny in general?

  • NMKingsFan

    Ers–
    In that “groupie” comment I was including myself, you are absolutely right that it is acceptable to disagree with how the team is run, but in disagreeing you must realize that there are thousands of variables that go into decisions that are made that we are not privy to.
    When Lombardi signed Visnovsky he had no idea he would be in a position to draft Doughty, once that pick was made he needed to dump that salary so that Doughty and/or Hickey could be signed in the future and I believe either one will replace Vis and will be playing long after he retires. In return we got two good players.
    Your comment about ownership is spot on, the Kings really need an owner that cares.

    Great dialogue for the off-season folks!

  • nykingfan

    Unbelieveable…
    I didn’t read all of the comments carefully, but it appears only number6 got it right when he spoke about the 2004 class and what a piss-poor job Taylor and his scouts did with that draft. He wasted an entire draft class without getting one prospect.
    I stll see Anthonyy and the rest bashing DL, but why so quiet about the job DT did and what he left the organization with?
    A little more consistency and fairness will go a long way for you to be taken seriously.

    Forget about the prospects crap…..the only thing that counts is if and when they make the NHL and how they do.
    Tukonen was a prospect…..is he scrubbing toilets these days in Finland?

    sorry about the tone of my rant but sometimes it gets a little ridiculous in the bashing of DL..especially when the evidence is clear on what a terrible job Taylor did with this organization and yet DL’s the only guy getting bashed.

  • Ersberg

    DL is the only one getting “bashed” because he’s the current GM. Yes, DT pissed away many pieces to the puzzle, but I’m not going to sit here and string up a corpse.

    Does it help if we bash both? Not really, since DL’s choices are really all that matter going forward. Personally, I’m not against everything he’s done. He’s done some good thing for the Kings, but I want some..consistancy..from him. He needs to make 3-4 good choices back-to-back going forward. Making a good one, then a bad one, then a good one doesn’t do anything for the team.

    I don’t know about you, but I’m tired of being let down.

  • JDM

    Ersberg,

    Careful. You’re turning.

  • Ersberg

    As in “dark side” turning?

    I’d just like to see him make some solid, confident choices is all. Every time I read something he’s quoted in, I can distinctly hear the cracking off egg shells.

    I really want to be on-board with DL 100%, but I’m just not convinces of everything that’s been put into play. I.e. Trades, drafts, signings, etc.

  • PaulCat1969

    Ersberg,

    Over the last year, what are you so specifically opposed to that he has done?

  • JDM

    Fair enough, I’m a DL supporter but don’t condone every move he has made.

    I was really just pointing to the tone of your posts, which I sense a little shift in away from gleaming positivity. Aint nothing wrong with realism though!

    I think if time has shown anything, its that DL’s word are only just a vague guideline.

    To me, I’m only worried that he sits on his hands this offseason. That wouldn’t fly with me.

  • Daniel

    Sorry to break-up the ‘debate’ here but as an aside, thought I would throw out an off-the-radar name the Kings may be looking to draft in the first round – Louis Leblanc.

    Sure, he will be at Harvard for at least a few seasons but he went to Omaha (Luc’s team) instead of the ‘Q’ and he has all the intangibles Mr. Lombardi looks for. Personally, unless we trade for a proven scorer, I would rather have one of the top 5 ranked guys, as they should be able to contribute immediately. Although, if they can grab him with their 2nd round pick – great.

  • Ersberg

    Paul-

    He hasn’t really done anything in this past season, other than the Sully deal. I’m actually not opposed to that deal, other than losing the 2nd, but we have plenty of guys in that talent range,so no real harm there.

    I think he could have broadened his range of players he went for at the deadline.

    I’m more inclined to note the things he’s done prior to this past season, really. The “fab four” signings two years ago really sticks in my mind. That’s when he shouldn’t have aquired those players. He’d be more off the hook if he did it this past season, easily claiming we needed the extra firepower. We didn’t need those guys then.

    I’m not 100% sold on Zus, either. He could just as easily lay an egg this season just like he did in his first year. Greene and Stoll aren’t exactly “key” guys, either. Greene is a serviceable, albeit hard working, 3rd-pairing d-man that misses the net more than he hits it, and Stoll would be long gone had he not been 7-8th in the league in face-offs. We don’t need to go into the guys we’re still paying for, really, including Preissing.

    With that said, I don’t want to just point all that he’s done poorly and/or not done, since he’s done well at drafting, minus the Hickey pick. I think he sold himself(and us) short on that one. Hopefully Bernier will turn out to be a solid first round selection.

  • number 6

    Hey nykingfan… thanks for your comments. Not because I need someone to tell me there is something in what I say (I just say what I’ve observed) but while there are clearly some extremely insightful comments on this blog there are some moments where I actually ask myself if there’s something wrong with me, in the sense that I wonder how no one else is seeing these things. Obviously you do too. And of course I know others out there see these things as well. I mean to sit here and criticize for the sake of it to me isn’t what it’s all about. It doesn’t accomplish much. BTW, I was actually friendly with Dave T (not name dropping, but I did a photo essay on him for a magazine many years ago and you’ll never meet a nicer man), so it’s even harder for me to criticize him.
    I just felt his management was sort of like his playing … straight ahead and determined (and who knows how much his hands were tied by ownership) but I feel that a GM needs something of the artist to succeed, i.e. creativity And an ability to see the bigger picture.
    So, thanks for that. Listen, we’re all incredibly passionate about the Kings on this site, and speaking for myself, I feel frustrated seeing Detroit pick gems constantly out of the low rounds and yet the Kings haven’t done it in ages….

    Anybody remember Butch Goring, Luc Robataille, Bernie Nicholls? All low picks (and I believe there were others). So of course I ask the question … what happened to their scouting for such a long period of time. Hopefully we’re a bit more on the right track now!

  • Quisp

    Greene blocks a lot of shots.

  • PaulCat1969

    Well reasoned…a couple of counter points.

    At the trade deadline I really think that was a situation where he was adding not for a playoff run but for the following seasons. Justin Williams was a good pick up. He is an “IF” of course but I like what I was seeing towards the end of the season. After that, I think Dean just played it cool. I am sure asking prices were too high for some players while others may have been a “why do it when I can potentially sign them over the off season.” I promise you there will be a lot of teams looking to dump players after July 1 and that will put the Kings in a very enviable position.

    I think it is really unfair that so many people go back 2-3 yeas ago and question what Dean was doing. Sure there were some questionable signings but in reality they were the right thing to do (Cloutier’s extension being the exception). The Drury’s, Chara’s, and the handful of other players that were there to sign may have been great on paper but when there was so little depth and experience on the team it really would have just been pissing money away. I could deal with it as long as our younger players were getting some experience and working hard. The kids played hard and that worked for me. I didn’t see a lot of apathy on the team. Now though we have a really good core who are getting a taste of the culture of getting to the playoffs. That is a big deal.

    I think when you look at players like Zus, Greene and Stoll you are talking about role players. They are not the stars of this team nor should they be. The best part is that as our kids grow and as we add a player or two that really makes us more competitive, the role players can do just their job. They won’t have to mentor as much and they won’t have to do as many aspects of the game because our depth will pick up that slack. It would not surprise me to see Quincey or Johnson or Doughty increase their blocked shots stats because of Greene’s example or Simmonds’ or Brown’s +/- simply because they understand their responsibilities better.

    As for Hickey, no one can judge him until he plays in the NHL but I like what I see thus far. I like that he was the captain of Team Canada’s Junior Team. I love that he plays injured to help his team. I love that when he was drafted the Bruins GM slammed his fist into the table. I think if you were to ask now, there would be more than a few GM’s in the league that would want him in their organization. Yes the jury is still out but for now it seems hopeful…time will tell.

    In the end I know Dean has a lot to prove this off season. I am trying to remain hopeful that he will do what is necessary to make this team better. I think simply if we went into this season with the line-up we had at the end of last season, we would be at least 10 points better. A full season with Quick, Drewski, a bulkier Simmonds, the second half Kopitar for the entire season, a healthy Justin Williams would not make this team worse. Now add another 30-40 goal scorer and we are really on to something.

    Just my opinion of course.

  • nykingfan

    You’re right number6 it seems sometimes we’re swimming against the tide.

    Ersberg
    I don’t agree with your posts that Greene’s not a key guy. He’s the heart and soul of the defense….Doughty’s the the stud, but without guys like Greene, you can’t win.
    I also disagree with your points on Hickey/DL
    Dl went completely off the charts by picking Hickey. He could have easily went with a much safer pick, but he stuck his neck out on the line for Hickey.
    Obviously he hasn’t played an NHL game, but if that draft was done over again, Hickey would be a top 5 pick in anyone’s book.
    The guy’s shown himself to be a leader and a winner.
    He was captain of the Canadian Juniors that won the gold. He had the entire nation on his shoulders during that tournament and came through. the year prior he was one of the very few 18 yr old defensemen to make the Canadian junior team. The guy is definitely not a slouch. They don’t make a guy captain just because his name is easy to spell. He’s a major talent and soon we’ll all be able to see it.

  • number 6

    nykingfan said:

    They don’t make a guy captain just because his name is easy to spell.
    :-) That’s a good one nykingfan. I need to be working here, not signing in again, but that was the best laugh I’ve had today…..are you Certain that’s not why they make a guy captain??? (hope you got the irony……. just in case)

  • Ersberg

    Paul-

    Nice post, but I still feel we’ll be spinning our wheels next season.

    Also, I think the addition of a “proven” scorer may not be as good of a thing as we’re all led to believe. See, my problem with that is, we’re still at a low overall ceiling in terms of talent. If we add a guy that scores more goals, all opposing teams will do is throw their checking line at said players line, nullifying any potential threats.

    That was one of the issues Kopitar’s lines were dealing with last season. In reality, I think we need a play-making Center to help alleviate some pressure down the middle.

    King-

    Fair enough. “..but without guys like Greene, you can’t win.”

    Yes you can, you get guys that are just better, such as Komisarek. Not only is he just better, he’s just as nasty, blocks shots, and is a roll player.

    Our problem isn’t just that we don’t score goals; it’s the simple fact that our “core” isn’t all that talented, with Frolov being the exception.

    Your comments regarding Hickey are noted, but those are the Juniors. I’m sure the same can be said about guys that didn’t cut it in the NHL, either.

    Sam Gagner isn’t exactly a bad player; Just ask Edmonton.

  • PaulCat1969

    I know what you are getting at with the proven “scorer” idea and to a point I can’t argue. I think thought here is something to be said about extending the talent pool. Let’s say for fun we were to add Gaborik. I use him only because I think to trade for a scorer will mean trading Frolov which I don’t want to do. Even if the opposing team were to put out their checking line, Stoll, Frolov, WIlliams or whatever combination you like would be pretty formidable. Not to mention a PP that would have Kopitar, Gaborik and Frolov. While a playmaker certainly would do a lot for our team we simply just need a guy who can finish. I can’t tell you the number of games and you can definitely include shootouts, where we simply just lacked a scoring spark. A guy that would draw away the opposing teams players leaving other guys open which in affect is as good as having a playmaker.

    Having a healthy Williams will certainly help this cause. If he can score a minimum of 25 goals his mere presence in front of the net will do wonders. Put that next to Frolov, Brown, Kopitar, Simmonds (who I think doubles his goal totals), Stoll, and Moeller and suddenly our offense looks pretty good. Add a 30-40 goal guy and it will difficult to argue with how potent we could be.

    On Greene, I just want to add simply that the guy is 26 years old. I still have a hard time believing that. He plays like he is in his 30s. Look at this:

    Doughty 19
    Greene 26
    Johnson 22
    Quincey 23
    Drewski 23

    That is crazy to me how young these guys are and if you figure to add someone to that we are extremely solid on the back-end.

  • 28 KINGS

    “Why not just re-sign Cammy when we had the chance? It’s all offense. What I’m getting at is our tradition of how we manage our deals. It’s tit-for-tat. We give our right arm to aquire a left. We do a step forward and 1.5 back.”

    Ersberg, Cammy wasn’t going to sign here when his contract was up, and if he did, it wouldn’t be for less than 6 mil. There’s no question he can score, but the guy couldn’t play defense, and in our new defense first system, he’d have struggled the most (and cried about it to the media). There’s no way he scores 40 under this system, 20-25 at best. He’s a one dimensional player who wants a ton of money, every GM knows this. If your a GM and you know you can’t sign a guy, your left with no choice but to move him.Look what’s going to happen in FLA, they’ll lose Bouwmeester and get nothing.

    “We lose Vis and aquire Stoll and Greene. They’ve stabilized particular needs for the team. The problem is, we lost some serious offensive puck management on the back-end in Vis.”

    Doughty,Quincey,Johnson(when used on the pp),and even Harrold picked up the management part up without missing a beat. Hell, Doughty ran all over the ice with it. Then there’s Hickey who’s waiting in the wing.Losing Vis might have cost us a few goals, but we got younger, and tougher on the blueline.

  • -J

    Number 6 said “… feel frustrated seeing Detroit pick gems constantly out of the low rounds and yet the Kings haven’t done it in ages….

    Anybody remember Butch Goring, Luc Robataille, Bernie Nicholls? All low picks (and I believe there were others). So of course I ask the question … what happened to their scouting for such a long period of time. Hopefully we’re a bit more on the right track now!”

    As a long time detroit fan (going back to when thay absolutely sucked cus yzerman was my favorite player growing up, followed by luc) I think you, and many others, have a little misperception of Detroit’s late round draft success. They’re really not that exceptional or unique. They’ve been lucky a couple of times, but they haven’t “consistently plucked gems from the late rounds” as many believe. In fact, since 93, they’ve only drafted 3 players in the 5th or later that played any significant time- Holmstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg. Granted they are very key elements to Detroit’s team, but it is only 3 players in 15+ drafts.

    Here’s a couple other teams for comparison:
    LA-Huet, Parros, Timmonen
    SJ- Pavelski, Clowe, Murray, Samuelsson (now on Detroit), Smith, Kiprusoff, Korolyuk, Nabokov
    Phi-Seidenberg, Nittymaki, Fedoruk, Boulerice, Selivanov, Forbes, Hedberg
    Pit-Talbot, Kostopolous, Scuderi, Peterson, Ference, Hrdina, Aubin (not the goalie)
    Chi-Kukonen, Byfuglien, Wisniewski, Burish, Arnason, Calder,
    Was-Oduya, Zednik, Brunette

    Detroit got lucky, that is it. It’s not some magical formula or insight they have.

    As for Nicholas, Robitaille, et al, that was am entirely different era. If you look at drafts pre-1990, it was not uncommon to have 25% or more of a team’s draftees end up having good careers, and players were frequently found in late rounds. You don’t see anything like that today.

  • -J

    Man, I got to lay of the spell check- I’m getting lazy with my proof-reading. Apologies for the typos.

  • number 6

    -J … I appreciate the thorough research done by you. I can’t sit here and say I researched anything in that way but permit me to correct you on some things. Johan Franzen has an unbelievable ratio of playoff games to goals scored. Now he was drafted 97th,… that’s NINETY SEVENTH, in the 2004 draft, which in fact happens to be the year that the Kings got no one. I do believe that would also qualify as a late round pick. I mean a guy doesn’t have to be picked 150th to qualify as a late round pick. Valteri Filpula was drafted 95th in 2002. So I think that lends a load of credence to what I was saying in the first place. I’d love to say “I stand corrected”, but as you’re the Wings fan (Kings fan too I guess) I’d figure you’d know this stuff.

    I was not only referring to picking superstars, though Franzen is no slouch. I think every Kings fan would love to have him on the team. And as for Datsyuk and Zetterberg we’re talking Two Superstars with very late round picks. You don’t see that almost ever… and here we have two on the same team…. Lucky. Maybe once… but five or six players on the same team??
    Hey, I ain’t tryin to show you up -J, but almost forgot Nick Lidstrom, one of the three or four best defensemen to ever play the game…. drafted 53rd overall.
    Any thoughts?

    Oh, one thing I do agree with you on though, is Yes, clearly there is an element of luck involved. Also you can’t write the book based on what they have done compared to one Kings draft year. But to me, at the same time it does say a lot. I’ll bet very few people on this site know that the Kings went almost a Decade without drafting one single twenty goal scorer (the period when Gretzky was on the team… when all the scorers retired or were traded, no one came along who scored more than twenty goals that was a Kings prospect until Frolov if I’m not mistaken?? So if luck plays a part then the Kings were very unlucky, but I’d say rather that the management was terribly inept.

  • 28 KINGS

    “.

    Here’s what I’d do this season, and if all parties agreed:

    To LA
    2nd overall-Draft Tavares or Duchene

    To TB
    Greene
    5th overall
    Hickey
    +if need be ”

    Ersberg, don’t take this the wrong way, but are f’ing nuts!
    Your willing to give up essentially 2 first rnd picks, a top 4 defensemen, plus more if needed just to move up 3 spots. Neither of those guys is going to be the next Crosby or Ovechkin and you want to move all those assets for one of them. Talk about “giving our right arm to aquire a left. We do a step forward and 1.5 back” as you put it in a previous post.

  • 28 KINGS

    Number 6…your right in your assessment of our previous management. The lack of quality scouts,not just the guys who are scouts, but know how to judge talent (as apposed to just on stats…see Dany Rousin), and how the picks are developed, play a huge part in their nhl careers. Did you ever hear Taylor or any of the previous GM’s talk about development of a player? I really can’t.

    Players always seemed to be brought up before they were ready. Storr and Berg are good examples of rushing guys in before they were ready. Brown I believe would be a better player if he’d spent a few years in the minors. You don’t see this with Detroit. Guy know when they are drafted, they will spend at least 2-3 years in the minors…minimum.

    We’ve had plenty of chances to draft superstars or at least a franchise goalie.But, unfortunately the Taylor/Murray combo were focused elsewhere and drafted projects with first round picks, small soft Euros, and guys with serious character issues.
    I’d say inept fits perfectly.

  • number 6

    Thanks 28 KINGS. You bring up excellent points…. especially about leaving players in the minors and letting them develop. Same btw for New Jersey… they stay in the minors till they are good and ready… like a proper recipe cooking. And in fact you actually reminded me of something (expressed here in two parts). PART 1 – When size became a big issue DT’s regime drafted one big player after another (see Scott Barney and Matt Zultek and Jens Karlson to name a few). It was like they got caught up in stats – albeit physical stats rather than a moulded well rounded player who could develop into something. PART 2 – I have to share this… What drove me absolutely nuts was that every year I’d buy the Hockey News draft preview… and the guys the Kings drafted were guys who scouts expressed (no pun intended) big doubts about. Especially I remember that with Matt Zultek and Scott Barney both. I was like “why in the heck did they draft Them”? Not that I know so much. But if just reading THN gives you the idea they’re going down the wrong street, Wow… they’re in trouble! And in fact they were! Oh, and of course one of DT’s last drafts involved Brian Boyle. Anyone out there seen the film Groundhog Day?

  • nykingfan

    I got the irony 6.

    28 Kings is also right on..when he talks about player development. Was their any type of developmental camp under the Taylor regime? It’s not a rhetorical question, I don’t know the answer. I didn’t know about this blog back then.

    Lombardi comes in and wants all of the players in the system playing the game the “Kings way”. You don’t need to have every player playing the same way, but the commitment to defense and puck possession are 2 things that are taught throughout the system. When the guys get called up, the learning curve isn’t as great.
    That’s why I don’t believe that what Detroit does with their drafts is luck. Quite the contrary.
    In this day and age of high salaries and demanding ownership and fan base Every pick you have is crucuial. there is nothing left to chance with your draft picks. They have had a stable front office for a long time and that brings a cohesive nature to the scouting department.
    DL has said it over and over….He needed to feel comfortable with the scouting department and makes sure they were all on the same page and thinking a like. That will improve as the regime remains in place…allowing them to find the players the Red Wings do in the later rounds.

    Success is not luck…if it was, even the Kings would have fallen into a cup over the last 40 years. We haven’t won because the front office for this organization over its history has been perhaps the worst run in all of pro sports…until DL got here.

    Ersberg..
    The Greene-Komisarek argument is not fair. Lets be honest…how many games have we seen Komisarek play that we can safely say he’s better than Greene? I saw Greene all of last season and never had the slightest clue of how valuable he was. That’s the reason he got the “A” during training camp. That game he won for us by blocking the shot with his face and then taking the guy out in front was the highlight of the season for the Kings. Does Komisarek make that same play? Maybe, but Greener made that play.
    He’s not perfect, but he’s the type of guy who will lay it all out for you when you need it.
    I’m pretty confident in saying that he’ll have his name etched on the cup before he retires…hopefully its with the Kings.

  • -J

    number 6- permit me to correct you on something as well, 3-4th roudner’s are mid-round picks, not late round picks. So, yeah, I don’t consider Franzen a late pick. Generally late refers to things toward the end, not right in the middle. There were 291 picks in 04 so 97th is almost in the first 1/3rd. You still consider that a “late” round pick?

    Also, I didn’t forget Lidstrom, who was drafted in 89, four years earlier than what i indicated my analysis went back to (guess you missed that i was only going back to 93). He was also drafted early in the 3rd round, so wouldn’t be a late pick. Hence why he wasn’t on my list.

    Since you’re so keen on the wings draft record, why don’t you look at there overall drafting- first through last rounds. It’s nothing special. IF Detroit’s scouts are so great at finding players, why aren’t they consistenly, or even semi-consistently, pulling guys in the 1st round? I’d say Detroit’s strength isn’t drafting, it’s development,

    Which lead’s into the last part, you’re right that the Kings draft record for forwards from the gretzky era is horrid. Beyond Robert Lang, there isn’t much, though they did draft Sydor, Zhitnik, and Timmonen on D. I don’t think this is necessarily bad luck either; rather it points to the kings inability to develop their prospects and lack of a development system.

  • -J

    Two things to add, number 6, is even in the mid-rounds (3-4), Detroit is nothing special. Who’d they get in last 15 years- Franzen and Filpulla. That’s it.

    As for drafting back to back stars in the late rounds, like zetterberg and datsyuk- It’s certainly rare, but not unheard of. Too name a few other times that happened, SJ took Nabokov (9th round) and Kiprusoff (5th round) in late rounds on consecutive years and the Sens picked up Demitra (9th round) and Alfredsson (6th round). So it does happen. What’s rarer, though, is that teams keep them around through development and they end up playing on the same team in their prime.

  • 28 KINGS

    “DL has said it over and over….He needed to feel comfortable with the scouting department and makes sure they were all on the same page and thinking a like. That will improve as the regime remains in place…allowing them to find the players the Red Wings do in the later rounds.”

    Nykingfan… Good point.

    You want to know what not being on the same page looks like at the draft…”The Los Angeles Kings call time out” The camera pans over to the Kings table and everyone looks totally confused as to who to pick and what to do next. I can’t remember which draft this was from, but it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if it wasn’t 2004.

  • number 6

    NYKIngfan…. thank you again.

    -J, you know what…. I’m certain that you’re a great guy and I think this all boils down to a matter of semantics. Personally I go along with what NYKingfan said: which is that it’s not luck… it’s seeing a bigger picture and having a very thorough understanding of what you want to accomplish with your franchise in terms of style of play, character and god knows what else. That’s where I take you most to task… that inference that Detroit was lucky. I’ll say it here…. IMHO,… No They Weren’t Lucky. Why……. because they find good players shall we say more often than not. Also, excuse the exasperation on my end… but I really don’t feel like getting into a “thing” as to what a 3rd or 4th round player constitutes. I think if you draft players like Franzen, Filipula, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lidstrom (even if it was a long time ago) and many others like that shall we say after 90 other players have been chosen then you’re doing damned well and OK OK… they are incredibly lucky.
    Oh and as for the comments about how they haven’t done that well with first rounders… well for one they’ve been drafting on the very low end of the first round every year for as long as I can remember – and that’s when they’ve even had a first rounder and not traded it away to the Kings (Schneider) or Blackhawks (Chelios) or whoever else.
    Summed up…. if the goal is to get a great hockey player every year… they’ve done better than just about anybody else…. except for maybe Pittsburg…. who of course got Crosby (1st). Malkin (2nd), Fleury (1st) and Stall (2nd)….. not the same as Detroit’s draft positioning.

    Otherwise I just don’t know what to say. At least we agree on the developmental aspect. As for the rest guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

  • number 6

    Upon further reflection I think this whole thing is stupid. Sorry to say that but what’s the difference. The Wings are playing in the Finals again and the Kings are out of the playoffs again.

  • -J

    Number 6- you’re definitely one of the most cordial poster around here. I think this is the most i’ve seen you bothered about a topic. I see you’re not catching what i’m saying so i’m not going to hash it out anymore.

    However, i do agree with you on much of the larger, global issues- for instance, “seeing a bigger picture and having a very thorough understanding of what you want to accomplish with your franchise in terms of style of play, character and god knows what else” should be the crux of any scouting department. Whether that is how it was with the pre-DL Kings, who knows, but it does seem to be how things are know. (That’d said, Detroit is still absolutely lucky to find players of Zetterberg’s and Datsyuk’s caliber late in the draft.)

    Detroit is a great team with the right mix of players. It’d be interesting if one could see what would have happened to some of them if they ended up elsewhere- would Zetterberg or Datsyuk even be in the NHL or would the have ended up like Tukonen? Is Detroit great which makes the players seem great, or are the players great, which makes Detroit great? Moreover, would anyone tout guys like Filpulla if he wasn’t on Detroit?

    el fin

  • AEG rulez

    We have a winner — our pick at #5 will be Ryan Ellis. A perfect fit in every way.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/junior-player-proves-good-things-come-in-small-packages/article1162241/

  • MacSwede

    I also think that Kovalchuk would be a great player that would fill our needs both long-term and short-term.

    I would also accept Gaborik for a 2-year deal.

    But what would you guys think we would have to give up to get Kovalchuk? too much maybe?

    I mean, Atlanta would have to get some talents and depths to compensate the loss of that player..

    5th pick, Johnson and prospect, is that enough?

    Is it worth to give up Frolov + pick for Kovalchuk?

    I think if DL makes a trade to get a player like that it is going to hurt..a lot. And we all are going to wine about it in here…

  • number 6

    -J, I’ve just woken up after much needed sleep. Thank you for your post. I really appreciate it. You too are very cordial and I do absolutely agree with you. So there you go. I probably did miss some info coming thru the cracks yesterday (job related stress :-). Also you were probably intimating in some way that had Detroit know what these guys were to become they wouldn’t have let them hang around so long before drafting them very late.

    ….. and it’s totally true what you say as to how Zetterberg and Datsyuk might have ended up in another org as busts or certainly far more marginal players. When I was a kid I used to play pick up hockey with some really good players in LA, and I remember one of them telling me that had Mike Bossy been drafted by the Kings they would have booed him in LA. Obviously he was exaggerating to make a point, but I got the essence of what he was saying.

    Cheers.

  • Quisp
  • -J

    Oh, what a difference a few inches make… If he was 6′ instead of 5’9.5″, Ellis would be a lock for a top 3, top 4 pick. If the Kings go with a D-man at #5, I think it’ll be Cowen, and I’d be very happy with that. If he’d played a full season, he very possibly would have challenged Hedman for being the top D chosen this year and would not be around at #5 for the kings to take.

  • -J

    Quisp- i’m with you, that seems very suspect. For one thing, why in the world would tampa tell the league they intend to spend at the salary floor? Johnson’s dreaming if he really expects to get 5.5 for 4 years and any GM should be able to come back with a stack of comparables in that range that shows that JJ is not due that much. For ex, Weber and Suter make 4 and 3.5 mil/yr, respectively- JJ is not at their level yet, but i could see him reaching that in a few years so a contract in the 2.5-3.5 mil range (4-5 years) would seem to be more in the range of what to expect.

  • Cricket

    a few thoughts on this team being an “entity of mediocrity,” which I think is a pretty apt description in some ways, but won’t hold water over the next few years.

    From where I’m sitting, this team is still in a bridge phase. It’s been 3 years of a rebuild, and DL talked about taking 6 with SJ. I know he said that kings are ahead of pace, but still. Mediocre with a solid reserve list and prospect roster after 3 years seems appropriate.

    I don’t see Stoll here for that many years, and neither do I see Zeus here. OD will be gone, and our D, which is still in its infancy, has not solidified yet. Pieces are there, experience and fine tuning certainly are not. And one of the young ones will be traded, and it sounds like JJ’s a good candidate.

    Most importantly, goaltending is still not sorted out. This too will take a couple more seasons to give us a picture of who we’ll ice 60+ games a year for seasons to come, let alone how good he should be.

    Pepper in whatever free agents/trades are added, Kopi and Brown developing more, guys like Simmonds really solidifying their role on the team (in his case, a GREAT 3rd liner), and Lewis hopefully being a great 3rd center, and the team is not mediocre anymore. Mediocre now is a fair assessment, so I understand not seeing the talent there everyone else might. But for the long-winded reasons above, I see a lot of talent.

  • number 6

    When I commented on JJ’s dad contacting the KHL and that it didn’t sound good at all relative to the Kings, some people on the blog said, “it’s still early days, can’t read anything into that”. Well, maybe not, but the more “buzz” that’s surrounding Jack Johnson, the worse it’s sounding. How often do you have this much fairly negative (or “uncomfortable”) press surrounding a player in the off season? I believe the last one was Cammy, and even his story was more straightforward. He was clear about wanting more money and DL was clear about thinking he didn’t deserve it at that time. The rest is history.
    How many people out there think JJ will become a happy member of the Kings defense for years to come? Personally I don’t. Maybe I’ll be surprised………

    but I don’t think so.

  • number 6

    By the way, maybe it’s his dad, maybe it’s JJ himself, maybe it’s his friends telling him how great he is, maybe it was a hallucination that he had watching a flower that had a dollar sign appear on it. I really don’t care. I know a guy who I used to play hockey with (really good player he was too) who Loved hockey and said he can’t be bothered with the sport anymore…. and it’s for this sort of reason amongst others. Someone who has proved absolutely nothing so far and he expects (via anyone of the above mentioned reasons) lots of millions of dollars? Honestly, I found myself watching part of Game 4 last night and not really caring either. These guys don’t help the sport, I’ll tell you that. A country in recession and it’s me, me, me, me, oh yes, I almost forgot, there’s also “I”…. oh my god, i almost forgot, there’s “myself” too… lest we forget me, but don’t forget I and myself while we’re at it.
    Enough. If a guy isn’t happy to play on the team I support cause he thinks he deserves more money then let him go elsewhere.

  • deadcatbounce

    Came in very late on this thread, obviously. What I’m wondering is: Why is JJ calling out teammates during the combine? Calling a teammate a dirt bag probably
    isn’t the best way to impress team executives and scouts about your own worthiness as a teammate. This should be a time about trying to build yourself
    up, not tear others down. Then again, maybe JJ has good experience with what dirt bags are since a lot of people seem to think that he’s had to be raised
    by one. I wonder how far the apple really does fall from the tree?

  • JDM

    So many rumors… so much time till the draft.

    Atleast there is going to be a game 6. Kings or not, the day there is officially no real hockey games to watch until Frozen Fury is always a dark day.

  • Ziggy

    Call me crazy but…
    The Kings traded Belanger and Gleason for Jack Johnson. That was a great trade, altho both Eric B and Gleason are both serviceable NHLers, neither one has the value that JJ has. Therefore, if Jack doesn’t want to play for the Kings, then at least he will get a fetch a pretty good return. Our D prospects are pretty stocked and I dont think Jack is gonna ever win a Norris, or anything even close. The Kings backline won’t miss a beat without him in 2 years.
    The bottom line, we got Jack cheap from Carolina, lets go get a “true” King who wants to win a cup here. Carolina traded him for a reason, we will too.

  • variable

    well that’s a jaw-dropping tid-bit…(!)…

    if that “rumor” is true & if jj & co. are expecting $5.5mil per…

    i will be more than happy to go down to his condo in the oc and help him pack his belongings and move outta town…

    are you friggin’ crazy…???

    i’m going to wait another couple of days to see what comes of this latest gossip…we now have 2 consecutive weeks of skimpy stories/rumors chalked full of innuendo and loose attributed sources…and most, if not all of it, seems to be emanating from the johnson camp…

    i’m starting to believe that, regardless of the varying degrees of accuracy, there has to be some truth to these stories…

    $5.5mil per…???
    really…???
    (my head is shaking in disbelief…)

  • jet

    Ers – I commend you for actually putting something out there more substantial than DL sucks. Let me respond to most of your points.

    You said there is one player that you would take over Hickey if you could go back 2 years. You selected Gagne. While he is highly skilled, he is still an undersized center, especially in the West. He has a very difficult time defending lager centers. I think he was on the ice for both goals when we beat the Oilers in the last week, 2-1. It will be difficult to move him to wing as that would diminish his best skill, playmaking. I also believe he will have a short shelf life. He had two concussions before Christmas this season. Finally, he is not a DL type player. He had a blank score sheet playing for Canada u18s in 6 games. he scores about a goal every 10 games 5v5, about the same as Moeller, yet he gets 60% more playing time. Is he a nice little player? Sure, but everything points to a puck moving defenseman who is also a leader becoming more valuable.

    The ducks and sharks both were terrible for many years. In addition they both had good scouting systems to help increase the odds of finding a player. I think DL only learned from his experience building the sharks. Who better to do a complete rebuild?

    You are asking for DL to be smart and bold at the same time you say risking a deal for Williams can be easily problematic. I would say the Williams deal was smart and bold and took advantage of the Hurricanes closing window.

    You say we lost a prolific scorer in Cammy. I would disagree. I believe we made a deal to expunge as much value as possible out of a player who did not want to be here. If he turned down 5yr for 30 million, would you be the one who would ask DL to give him 35M? There is no way Cammy will see anything close to $35M. You just have to accept the fact that he did not want to be here and move on.

    Vis for Greene and Stoll. I completely disagree with you that we went no where with this one. We gained youth and leadership at the same time. We also filled two glaring holes in the PK, face-offs and D who clear out the front of the net. If I recall Quincey earned as many points as viz did this year.

    You continually say that we don’t have great talent outside of Frolov. Frolov is 26. In a few years we will have many Frolovs. This will require patience though.

    “We lack fire and talent in every sense of the word”. Do you really believe that there was less fire or talent on the ice as compared to last year? Army, Pressing, and Johnny Z were contributors last year and combined for 60(?) games this year. Also, how many games did we come back from being down this season? I was impressed with the drive and fire.

    Would you really trade Greene, Scheen, and Hickey for Duchene? I really like Duchene, he reminds me of Glen Anderson, but the value is not there.

  • JDM

    I believe the only thing to come out of the Johnson camp was his fathers oddly tardy letter Kings… er.. Carolina fans.

    Other than that, there is no evidence where this info came from.

    It could just as easily be from Johnson/his dad/agent/family/etc as it is reporters simply making crap up, or the dark possibility (I’m about to excite and inflame the trinity), Dean Lombardi and his people leaking garbage rumors to help lessen the blow from the fans if he does intend on trading Johnson, which itself may have something to do with the KHL or money rumors or nothing to do with them at all, but is being purported because DL wants to move JJ simply as part of a hockey deal.

    This is like a poorly written movie where you have no idea who said what, two guys have the same name, different characters look alike and you never know where you are in the story because there is no discernable device to shift through time. Come to think of it, David Lynch could probably make some sense of all this.

  • jet

    ers – One more thing in response to your notation that “DL hasn’t really done anything in this past year, other than the Sully deal”.

    Signed College FA:
    Davis Drewiske (played for the Kings in 1st year)
    ——————-
    Signed an undrafted player under some obscure rule:
    Jones (would be a top 5 GK selection this year)
    ——————-
    Drafted:
    DD (played for the Kings in 1st year)
    Tue
    Voi
    Loki
    All have a better than average shot of playing in the NHL
    ——————
    Trades:
    Clune for Tukonen (looks like we can only win)
    viz for Greene&Stoll (looks good now and in the future)
    Traded the 61st for Richardson (played for the Kings)
    Traded Sully to move up to get Tue (Sully would have played this year – Tue likely to play more than one year)
    Traded ( ) for O’donnell (hard not to like this one)
    Traded Labs for a 7th rounder (we may have come out ahead)
    Traded Sully and 2nd for Williams (too early, but I think we will have an easier time resigning Williams)
    ——————
    Selected off waivers
    Quincey (played for the Kings)

    So, half of the end of year D starters (Q, Od, DD2) DL got for free.
    The Kings also had the best D draft compared to other teams with DD, Tue, Voi and Campbell.
    How can you bash that?

  • BringBackKingston

    Can one of you CBA gurus explain whether or not the Kings can tender a qualifying offer to JJ and what effect that would have? Thanks.

  • darko25o

    Jet-I agree with almost everything youre throwin down, but Gagne is a top line pure LW’r, not a center, and with the financial strain Philly is under, it would seem that the kings would be in a position to give up less because they would be giving the Flyers cap space. With all the young talent we have, we should be looking to get star players from cap strapped teams, because it is already to our advantage that they are at a disadvantage with cap space.

  • variable

    BBK…

    Los Angeles Kings
    Jack Johnson – Qualified ($892,500)
    Teddy Purcell – Qualified ($892,500)
    Joe Piskula – Qualified ($843,412)
    Brady Murray – Not Qualified (UFA)
    Brian Boyle – Qualified ($787,500)
    Scott Parse – Qualified ($787,500)
    Drew Bagnall – Qualified ($787,500)
    Kevin Westgarth – Qualified ($616,000)
    Matt Moulson – Qualified ($574,200)
    Daniel Taylor – Not Qualified (UFA)
    Vladimir Dravecky – Not Qualified (UFA)

    here are some rules…:

    The current team must extend a “qualifying offer” to a restricted free agent to retain negotiating rights to that player.

    Players who earned less than $660,000 in the previous season must be offered 110 percent of last season’s salary. Players making up to $1 million must be offered 105 percent. Players making over $1 million must be offered 100 percent.

    If the qualifying offer is not made, the player becomes an unrestricted free agent.

    If the player rejects a qualifying offer, he remains a restricted free agent.

    Restricted Free Agents

    Players who are no longer considered “entry-level” but do not qualify as unrestricted free agents become restricted free agents when their contracts expire.

    * Qualifying Offers

    The current team must extend a “qualifying offer” to a restricted free agent to retain negotiating rights to that player.

    Players who earned less than $660,000 in the previous season must be offered 110 percent of last season’s salary. Players making up to $1 million must be offered 105 percent. Players making over $1 million must be offered 100 percent.

    If the qualifying offer is not made, the player becomes an unrestricted free agent.

    If the player rejects a qualifying offer, he remains a restricted free agent.

    * December 1 Deadline

    Restricted free agents must sign NHL contracts by December 1, or they are not eligible to play in the NHL for the rest of the season.

    * Salary Arbitration

    A team or player can file for salary arbitration as a mechanism to settle contract disputes.

    A team can take a player to arbitration once in his career, and cannot ask for a salary reduction greater than 15 percent. Players can ask for salary arbitration as often as they want.

    See also: salary arbitration explained

    Offer Sheets and Restricted Free Agents

    # The Offer Sheet is a Contract

    An offer sheet is a contract negotiated between an NHL team and a restricted free agent on another team.

    The offer sheet includes all the terms of a standard player contract, including length, salary, bonuses, etc.

    A player who has signed a qualifying offer or is going to salary arbitration with his original team cannot sign an offer sheet.

    # Accept or Decline

    When an offer sheet is signed, the players current (original) team is notified. That team can keep the player under the terms of the offer sheet, or decline and let the player join the new team under those terms.

    The original team has seven days to make its decision.

    # No Turning Back

    Once an offer sheet has been signed by a player, the original team cannot negotiate a new contract under different terms or trade the players rights. Its only options are to accept or decline the offer sheet.

    # The No-Trade Clause

    If the original team chooses to accept, or match the offer sheet, the player cannot be traded for one year.

    # Compensation

    If the original team declines the offer sheet and loses the player, it receives draft picks from the players new team as compensation.

    Compensatory draft picks are determined by the players new salary, on a sliding scale.

    For example:
    - In 2008 a team signing a restricted free agent to a salary averaging $2,615,625 to $3,923,437 per season will lose a first-round draft pick and a third-round draft pick to the players old team.
    - Signing a restricted free agent to a contract worth over $6,539,062 per year costs a team four first-round draft picks.
    ——————————————————

    remember…

    jj doesn’t qualify for arbitration…you need 4 seasons under yr belt…he has 3…

  • variable

    here’s a RFA signing compensation chart…:

    $863,156 or less – None
    $863,156 – $1,307,811 – 3rd round pick
    $1,307,811 – $2,615,623 – 2nd round pick
    $2,615,623 – $3,923,434 – 1st and 3rd round pick
    $3,923,434 – $5,231,246 – 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick
    $5,231,246 – $6,539,061 – Two 1st’s, one 2nd, one 3rd round pick
    $6,539,061 or more – Four 1st round picks

  • -J

    variable- when did the Kings announce qualifying offers have been made for this year? I haven’t seen this anywhere.

  • variable

    -J

    thank you for catching that…

    i accidentally cut and paste that chart…

    PLEASE DISREGARD THAT QUALIFYING OFFER BREAKDOWN…!

  • Duckhunter

    I’m with the Cowen pick. 6’5″ 220, wing span from hell, good skater and Hockey Future says,”his offense is underrated.” What’s not to like about Hickey, Teubert, Voinov and Cowen, along with Bernier, Zatkoff and Jones in between the pipes. Holy smokes.

    Burke(Toronto) wants to move up from the 7th spot. It’s going to be hard for him to get the 1st or 2nd pick, if not impossible without selling the pharmacy. Burke said in a interview he would be interested in Schenn, but he didn’t think he would still be available at the 7th spot. How about trading down to Toronto’s spot, picking up a couple second round picks or whatever we can squeeze out of Burke and take Cowen. If he’s taken, then Kane, Schenn or MPS will still be available, as well as us picking up a few picks.

    We can then use these extra picks along with JJ and pick up a serviceable left winger( you guys can fill in the blank) for next year. Then the following year, I would go aggressively after Kovalchuk. Oh man, how I would love to have Kovalchuck on the Kings.

  • darko25o

    Duckhunter-
    Theres plenty not to like in regards to Teubert. I think those of us that have been to a reign game this year would agree that we should use him in trade, while his stock is high. Hes a very smooth skater, but his positioning is poor, so is his hockey sense, and break out ability

  • Duckhunter

    darko,

    I would have to agree with you. I didn’t make any of the playoff games, but I watched Teubert for more than a couple games as well. The good thing is we don’t have to rush him. Maybe after a few years of development, he can become the player we all want him to be. I will say, I was a bit disappointed in his play, but again, we don’t need him right away….so that’s good, right?

  • jet

    darko – I was speaking of Sam Gagne in my post. Ers thought that DL could have done better with the 2007 1st rounder. I asked who he would have had DL select. And he responded with Sam Gagne (selected 6th overall). I agree that Sam Gagne is a player, but not I disagree that he is more valuable than Hickey.

    As far as Ers idea to trade for Simon Gagne, I would do that trade in a heartbeat. Even though Philly is in a $ pinch, and vanRiemsdyk appears ready, i think they would be reluctant to lose Gagne. A point a game player at 5M is a good value, especially when he can defend. I do agree 100% that there will be some talent available for trade this summer if the cap does not increase. This may be the best summer ever for teams with available cap space.

  • -J

    FWIW, it’s Sam Gagner, as in the son of Dave Gagner (eg. not sp. gagne)

  • tantrum4

    Ersberg –

    Two simple questions for you.

    1)Why do you think Hickey was a bad pick when you haven’t even seen him play one game for the Kings yet since he JUST finished his Junior carrer?

    2)Who would have been a better pick in your opinion? Before you say Alzner or Gagner (who hasn’t scored more than 16 goals), tell me why and how you can compare him to Hickey when you haven’t seen him play in the NHL yet.

  • BakoCAcameraGuy

    About Teubert:

    Perhaps our expectations are inflated due to the incredible play of the 18-19 y/o Drew Doughty. Remember–defensemen take longer to develop (usually).

    I saw Teubert, at the end of the regular season. I think it’s too early to write him off. Skaters will always be skaters; positioning can be taught. He could be a good stay-at-home defenseman, with time.

  • JPKelly

    On a completely unrelated note, I see in today’s LA Times that Tom Preissing has listed his Manhattan Beach home:

    http://www.latimes.com/classified/realestate/news/la-hm-hotprop6-2009jun06-pg,0,176138.photogallery?index=22

  • jet

    -J – you are correct, Sam Gagner. I need to spend less time in New York.

  • number 6

    I used to really be bothered by Malkin’s cheap hit on Simmonds during the season, but after watching Game 5 I feel better seeing he’s an “equal opportunity” cheap shotter. I’m certainly not feeling bad for him.

  • jet

    from hockey buzz – I also love the BB scenario that has Drew Doughty and the #5 going to Tampa for Vinny and the #2. Kings fans are yelling “hell no!” and my response is “are you crazy”? Hedman and Vinny for Doughty and the #5? Kings fans are on crack if they don’t think that’s the deal of the…. last 2 years.

  • stevebone

    Why does everyone forget MPS, a LW, left hand shoot with great speed and likes to go to the net. Just what the Kings need. He is said to bw NHL ready. I would pick him over Kane. I hope we keep our pick and take our chances with Kane or MPS

  • BakoCAcameraGuy

    The top four picks are likely: Tavares, Hedman, Duchene, and MPS…

  • darko25o

    Jet-
    oh….then I guess i agreed with you completely. Thanks for clarifying

  • mk_42

    I love you -J.
    I’m glad someone else is with me on the Detroit thing. It isn’t super great scouting. If they really did think that Zetterberg or Datsyuk were even half as good as they actually are they would have taken them with the first pick they had. IMHO it is partly luck and partly development but mostly I think it’s the “winning momentum.” If you are stacked with talent on all fronts it’s easier to develop properly and bring them into the right atmosphere (which incidentally is something DL also preaches). I 100% agree that many of those players everyone is salivating over would have been busts elsewhere. Ever notice that most of their goalies are other teams cast offs and they consistently kick ass once they move to Detroit? If Abdekader or Filpula were drafted by the Kings would you really be that excited?

    Here’s an excerpt from my last post: …when [KH] took over as GM the Red Wings already had the full stable and the inertia of going up: they had Yzerman, Lidstrom, Federov, Fetisov, Larionov, Kozlov, and McCarty. It’s a lot different to keep it going, ask people for discounts to play with that team, etc. then it is to start at the bottom. The Red Wings did start at the bottom in the 60s. They missed the playoffs for like 15 years, then they mostly sucked in the 80s, and then started accumulating talent…

    So to sum up the thing that everyone is envious of is, basically, that the RedWings are good. Everyone is hoping that we can be just as good if we just emulate something they are doing NOW but what we really are doing is emulating the WHOLE THING. If you want instant success you should look to PIT, not DET. They did it fast. Twice. (super mario-jagr and now with Crosby-Malkin) So by that formula “all we have to do” is draft the next Crosby.

    _42

  • Ersberg

    Tantrum-

    You answered your own question.

    Gagner has played in the NHL, has proven to be an NHL talent, and plays for a better team in the Oilers.

    Hickey has not played an NHL game, has not shown he’s not ready for the NHL level of play, and is a question mark this next off-season(again).

    Since we need offense, I think it’s pretty clear who we’d need.

  • adam duncan

    Hey Rich,

    Just wondering why there’s no posting since Friday? I hope that The Daily News didn’t have to make more cutbacks. I don’t know where I would get inside knowledge on my team. Hope all is well.

  • tantrum4

    MSP will NOT go in the top 5 in the draft. It will be in no particular order, Tavres, Hedman, Duschene, Kane and Schenn. A lot of scouts and GM’s have said that MSP has slid down the list and is out of the top 5 right now. Please let Kane be there when we pick at #5 even though I highly doubt he will be. He will be our first superstar in 20 years…yes, I just said that.

  • Ersberg

    Jet-

    “How can you bash that?”

    Because everything other than the Drewiske signing and Quincey pick-up is either unproven or crap.

    He needs to grow a pair and put together some deals worth noting.

  • Naturallawyer

    “He will be our first superstar in 20 years…yes, I just said that”

    You do realize Wayne Gretzky was a King as recently as 14 years ago?

  • 28 KINGS

    Ersberg

    So in order to be a successful GM , Lombardi has to make deals with noting? Noting by whom…the fans, the media? Is that how you build winning teams? So you really want to trade our obvious franchise defenseman Doughty and the #5 pick for the #2 pick and Vinny (and his 10 million dollar a year contract).There is a reason Tampa wants to move him…10 million reasons. And what happens in year 4 or 5 when he’s broken down, going on his 3rd wrist surgery after only putting up 40 points? He’s still making 10 million a year!

  • variable

    heard this today…fyi…

    “Zigmund Palffy is not going to the KHL, despite being offer a deal by SKA St. Petersburg. He will stay in Slovakia.”

    i was always a big fan of his…and although he wasn’t the strongest, toughest or most durable player, (all legit criticisms: but he was never going to be that type of player), ziggy was a bonafide threat every time he had a shift…and i do miss watching him in this league…he’s 37 and way past his prime…but i always wondered what could/would have happened if ziggy stayed healthy during his career…in a lot of ways, havlat reminds me of ziggy…maybe not as pure as a goal scorer as ziggy, but definitely a high-caliber player that has been injury-plagued…

    i still remember watching ziggy get that shoulder dislocation w/about 5 secs left during garbage time vs. the quacks his last season w/the kings…and as i saw it happened, i knew it was bad right away…

    if you seriously analyze the kings lines in the history of the organization…when healthy…that allison/palffy/deadmarsh line is probably on the top 10 greatest team list…and it was unfortunately ironic that each member of that line had to prematurely retire at least once…

    i’m not about to suggest the kings take a chance on him…no, no, no…but seeing that blurb reminded me about some of the better kings moments during this decade and made me reflect for a couple of minutes on how exciting, fast and gifted a goal scorer ziggy was during his prime…

  • Ersberg

    28 Kings-

    No, deals that involve players that are equal to or better than other teams’ lines.

    Go team-by-team, line-by-line and tell me which teams have lesser quality lines #1-3 than the Kings.

    I think the Kings fan base has been sold on good value, but not necessarily good talent.

    I think the misconception is that I’m bashing Lombardi, when in fact I’m merely stating I’m not going to praise him for doing a standard job thus far. I’m also not going to praise him for a job he hasn’t done yet. Once the team is a contender, then I’ll give credit where credit is due.

  • jet

    Ers – And I think most of us want to win just as bad as you do. There have just been too many times in the past where we go for the knock out deal and it has failed. If we can do 3 or 4 things each year to improve what we have we will get there. When you have depth, you can listen to almost any offer out there and that is where you will find that extra boost to move the team up. Patience is the key. DL asked for 5 years. He is almost 3 years in. Let’s let him finish what he started. Good discussion, thx.

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