Kings hire new strength coach

What, no Pliladelphia Flyers connection?

The Raiders connection I could do without, but he was a captain in the Air Force. That I like.

After watching that video on his personal website, I wouldn't want him involved in my training or my life. The guy really creeped me out. He sounded like a Dr. Phil-esque self help guru without Dr. Phil's elocution skills.

Anthony-

Actually, Tim Adams is from Philly.

(j/k)

cRyPtIc Announcement by the Kings...

Way to go boys!

Richard,

One last question... Do you think AEG will finally allow DL to open up the checkbook??

Totally agree Gary, the guy doesn't give me any feeling that he'd be good for the job, I hope they haven't made a mistake.

Get some new material Anthonyy, that philly stuff is beyond tired.../

I don't know what you're talking about, Gary. First of all, the only reason I watched that video is because I'm a high achieving, business athlete. Tim even told me that's why I was watching him. Dude knows his stuff.

"Well Mr Hat! Do you wanna make the Kings better?"

-Yes Mr Garrison!

"Well if you follow my training techniques... you will be a seeewwpeerrstaarr!"

I don't care who it is, as long as he can keep the team healthy and not on the IR.

And Anthony...your act is VERY old.

I'm an Internet Athlete.

Wow...I had NO idea Quentin Tarantino was an exercise guru too! Maybe if Bob buys his tapes, it'll give new meaning to the term 'Kill Bill'.

I just want to be in training camp when Opie walks up to Ivanans in practice and says 'I have a special name for you....' Take your camcorder Rick, that'll be internet GOLD!!!

Not sure I'd feel too comfortable working out around this guy. His voice alone would make me value my personal space at least in a diameter of 10 ft.

If Robin Williams and Richard Simmons had a baby and Anthony Robbins was it's nanny, you'd get Tim Adams.

Sorry, No Philly Connection, I looked...

Anthony,

As has been said before me, your act is old and you do need new material...

If POS is so good as you claim, why is he being shopped around again? Could it be because he's small, weak, wimpy, and heartless?

Alright, Alright,
didn't mean to soil anybodys diapers.

Khanon81,
Yeah, I heard POS is involved in a package deal for Dany Heatley. A lot more than that useless Justin Williams will fetch!
Nice try son.

khanon81:

Hate to be defending Anthonyy, but POS is being shopped around again because the Edmonton Brass is clueless. They have no true rebuilding plan, react emotionally, and find themselves boxed into a corner with a large number of similar forwards.

That those forwards tend to be small, weak, and afraid to go to the net may be true, but that is not Anthonyy's fault.

Oh, and one more thing:

BB is right about Heatley. BB may be trying to score points against the Ottawa management, but at the core of the issue he is right. If Heatley can't evaluate his own team well enough NOT to sign a long-term contract with a loser, then needs to mouth-off and whine about his choice, boxing in the Ottawa GM with his trade demands, then he is an idiot as well as a loser.

BB chimed in at just the right time. He scores Canadian points with the fans, weakens Ottawa's position EVEN FURTHER by reminding everybody about it, and since he could never offer Ottawa what they need in trade he risks nothing.

Now, if the trade is pulled off, Ottawa looks like a loser, and fewer Toronto people rag on him because he didn't do the trade himself.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/26812-Maple-Leafs-GM-Burke-lashes-out-at-Senators-Heatley-for-requesting-trade.html

Cool, I can make up stuff to anthonyy.

I heard POS is involved as a throw-in to get Edmonton a 5th rounder in 2012!

Bako,
Don't bother trying to reason with Khanon81.
Unlike you and I, he's a stranger to common sense and no brainers.

Cute WWTMD
Since when does one become so humerous.

Quisp, sorry if I had you at 90 pts. 85 would have been real close if Jj did not get injuried.

Anyway, here is a great story about the cap and why DL is in such a good position over the next 14 months.

Would you take Briere and a 1st in 2010 and 2012 for Campbell?

Aw, shoot

http://www.theprovince.com/Sports/Heatley+could+first+name+available+weary+trade/1680287/story.html

"Yeah, I heard POS is involved in a package deal for Dany Heatley. A lot more than that useless Justin Williams will fetch!"

You do realize that it isn't a Patrick O'Sullivan trade, right? Dany Heatley is the player being traded, not the other way around. POS alone wouldn't get a return phone call. POS is one of 3 or more guys needed to make the deal. More like Hemsky, Gagner, then Sully to even come close to Heatleys value.

And once again you've found a way to hijack the thread.

can the new coach maybe help us bloggers get in better shape, as well...?

re: heatley...

glad to see that for the first time in recent memory that we are not being mentioned as one of the possible suitors/trade partners for him...

i agree w/rich...

i've been saying all along that gabby...although perhaps not the most perfect fit...is the most logical choice due in part to free agency...

and i also agree that if we fans were able to cool our jets for another...eh, um...year...that kovy would be the better option via free agency in '10 (assuming the thrash are not making him available via trade before then)...but i know that is less likely to happen: we, fans, being patient for the ufa's of 2010 and d.l. not doing something before that...

anyway...

counting the days 'til the draft...
maybe we should all try to organize a "virtual draft party/chat"...?

any suggestions...???

28 kings,
I'm glad to see you understand what a package deal means.
What a relief.

I didn't hijack this thread, Khanon81 was the one that changed the subject to POS.
Not me.

I still think DL & Co. were hiding this strength coach hire...

Why?

Coz he seems like a dorkus maximus perhaps Bako? ;)

The fact that there are several prominent spelling mistakes on his website would personally leave me a bit uncomfortable..... I just don't know about this one.

Number 6. bad spellers of the world untie.

Getting back to Rich's original post, I think this hire of Tim Adams was a good one. Back in 2003 the Raiders were actually good, and I think some of that is attributed to Adams. If he can get the kids to build some muscle and work on some explosive acceleration, I think the Kings will be much better off this season. I am betting Moller, and Doughty and Simmonds will benefit the most from him.

Anybody getting anxious about the draft yet?

Anthony,

I am looking forward to next season when Justin Williams will have a much better season than POS would ever have... I will expect an apology and an admission that not only you were wrong about JW and POS, but you were wrong about everything hockey/king related...

Oldthunder, the 2003 season for the Raiders was terrible. They went 4-11. It was 2002 where they went 11-5.

iansez,

That was funny!

The only problem is this: DL makes this big pronouncement at the end of the season telling us he's not impressed with the fitness development of the young stars, specifically criticizing Kopitar about how he should be more concerned with physical preparation than the pickup of a left wing scorer... then, DL fires the fitness coach... then, ??????, DL slips the hire of his new fitness coach between the classified section and the lonely hearts club posts, almost screaming out at us that this new guy blows cheese.

I'll give a counter example in football. The St. Louis Rams for years have been terrible, weak, small and often injured. They change coaches, then the new coach comes in and revamps everything in the weight room, hires new fitness people and makes it clear to all concerned that the old way of doing physical preparation is OVER.

http://www.stlouisrams.com/article/71982/

I expected DL to do something similar--
What he did was WEAK. It screams of, I can't do anything about these Dudes' offseason, even though I did put my foot in my mouth during the end-of-season interviews. It means the players are on their own, and God-help-us in training camp.

Got to admit, I'm disappointed.

BakoCAcameraGuy....

Prejudging much? DL did not make a big pronouncement. His comment was two sentences in an extensive interview on all topics related to the Kings. It was honest, and dead on from the perspective of how to address the concern.

When DL made his comments about Kopitar and Brown, it was the first sign that changes were coming with the strength and conditioning program. Just like any other coaching position, a replacement was looming. How is it "????" and how was it slipped in between the classifieds? What did you expect him to do? Hold a job fair? I'm not certain, but most of the time with jobs like these, you can find the job listing on the NHL.com jobs board, where its meant to go. So I'm sure any of the qualified professionals in the industry knew where to apply.

How can you be mad about his hiring not being publicly announced? He's not a star, he's not a bench coach, and he's probably never going to do a feature interview. Its not meant to be front page news. I would be more concerned if DL wasted his time doing a press conference to announce the guy's arrival. Its ridiculously early to be upset. Lets see how he does.

TB--

Moreover, let's see how the BOYS do this year, that's what counts. NO MATTER what the strength coach says or does; it only matters the work put in by the players in the off-season.

Oh, and disappointment is NOT anger or upset. I am not, and never will be, Anthonyy.

Finally, another anecdote. Was listening to Home Ice this morning; one of the hosts went to the pre-game skate before the game 7 between the Pens and the Caps this year. He said that after the two teams skated, it was clear to him who had the mojo and who did not. The Pens were focused and determined; the Caps were not, with deer-in-the-headlights looks in their eyes.

No matter how the 2009-2010 Kings' season turns out, what I want to see is FOCUS and PREPARATION. It's corny, I know, but I am a fan of former UCLA Basketball Coach John Wooden's pyramid of success. IT WORKS, and you can tell those people who approach life in a focused, prepared manner. If only the Kings can approach the coming season in that calm, anticipatory manner, do their work, get stronger, mentally prepared to win hockey games...

Right now, it's just a dream.

TB, we will see...

Bako...now yer talkin! It is about the preparation and it is about the level of focus. for sure!

Did I just get compared to Anthonyy? depressing...

Nope, TB--

I was just making sure I was NOT being compared to my friend Anthonyy.

There can only be just one.

BAKO...

right on...!

is adderall on the banned substance list...???

if not, hmmmmm......

"bad spellers of the world untie"...

OLDTHUNDER...i don't know if you were being too clever/ironic...

but i think you meant..."bad spellers of the world UNITE"...

...sounds like a smith's song...:)

from canada's hockey bible...(?)...tsn...

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=282230

eh...no thank you...!!!

and from the same peeps...i guess you can rule out toronto for heater...

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=282128

I don't follow the NFL, but people tell me that 4-11 for the Raiders is a good year.

So....true Deadcat!!!

For hypothetical and nothing better to do purpose. The sens blog site still has LA as the nr. 1 trade partner for heater and SJ as nr. 2. SJ: 1. Michalek and Vlasic for Heater. 2. Mich and Pavelski for Heater.

LA: 1. 5th, Moller and teubert for Heater 2. Fro, JJ and prospect for Heater.

They are saying that offers are coming in and the Kings are involved.

Who do you think DL would offer for Heater??

Mine:

ott-Purcell, JJ, MOller
LA-Heater

Not giving up Teubert or Moller or the 5th for Heatley. I don't think DL is going to trade leadership and character for the absence of same. Sending Frolov and getting Heatley still leaves us with a LW problem. I would say send Handzus, but he has a NTC and who wants to play in OTT?

Although I would prefer not to, I can see sending Purcell. How about we give them Purcell, Boyle and Stoll and they give us Heatley and they also have to take Preissing back.

I know, I know.

Bako -

Wow I can't believe you're getting so worked up about the friggin strength coach! Who cares if DL announced it or not? You HONESTLY think that because the Kings dont hold a press conference for every little thing like the Leafs or Habs that this new guy is a joke? Wow.

And with regards to your Brian Burke post, are you kidding me?? Where was this announcement by Burke when he took advantage of the Oilers when Pronger demanded a trade from them? Burke is an idiot and a hypocrite, and all he does is open his yap whenever things are slow in Leaf land. The guy is a joke and I'm so glad we have someone like Lombardi running the show here and not turning it into a circus....

This from the Bleacher Report ... sorry if you guys have already talked about it...i didnt read too much above

Regarding Heatley

"At this point, the front runner are the Los Angeles Kings. As mentioned in my previous article, they are more than willing to take on a big contract and finally compete in the tough Pacific division. Reports suggest that the Kings are set to offer Jack Johnson, Alexander Frolov, the fifth and 96th overall picks in the 2009 draft."

Quispie, or should I say Quipsie--
Dany Heatley Dreaming...

"It's just the thought of you, the very thought of you... My Love."
/Nat King Cole, Just the Thought of You

"Beauty in our face you see,
Tryin’ to hide all our misery, but
Evil, runnin’ through my brain,
Me and evil are about the same."
/Earth, Wind and Fire, Evil

"Hey, hey, hey — don't be mean. No need to be mean. 'Cause, remember: no matter where you go... [pause] there you are."
/Buckaroo Banzai, in a hot New Jersey Rock-N-Roll bar...

haha, good one Quisp ;)

I agree with you on Fro, but after Rich´s answer to my question in the open forum I realize that he very much could be traded. He IS a free agent after next season, and we might end up getting nothing for him. But I like him a lot, and I hope that he could reach another level, maybe as high as Heatley with the right environment. If we give up Fro for Heatley, I DONT think we should swap first picks.

IMO.. Purcell, Teubert, Frolov and Preissing for Heatley..

But I would rahter see Johnson instead of Fro in that trade..

Anthony is Hammond (E4)

Deelo my friend, I asked him that in the open forum, but he denied it ;)

Deelo--

Rich has already denied that one...

deadcatbounce said:

I don't follow the NFL, but people tell me that 4-11 for the Raiders is a good year.

:-) :-) :-)

MacSwede:

It remains to be seen if DL thinks Heatley is a whiny flake or not. However, if he thinks Heatley is worth it, I think he tries to retain Frolov, since that would solve our left side problem.

I think OTT would be lucky to get an offer like Frolov, Johnson and the 5th. I think if DL offers that, Murray takes it in a heartbeat. If I'm DL, I try to keep one of (or both of) Frolov and the 5th.

Here's one attempt to keep both:

Johnson, Stoll, Boyle, Purcell, Preissing for Heatley.

Remember, in order to find a trading partner before 7/1, Murray has to find someone to absorb the $4MM bonus. I don't think there are many teams who are willing to do that. In any case, the price of it is going to be factored into the deal.

Then you've got:

Heatley/Kopitar/Williams
Frolov/Moller/Brown
Lewis/Handzus/Simmonds
Wudrick/Kane/Cliche

Oh, I forgot to mention. We traded up with ATL to select Kane. I think we gave them Ersberg.

Fake Anthony thanks for correcting me, I still think the team was intact with good conditioning, just bad coaching. Its amazing how you can go the superbowl to worst in the league in 1 year. Maybe it was all the steroids with Romo et. al. I still think Adams did a good job with the conditioning, those guys were ridiculously fit. I keep forgetting what it is like to have a winning team. I have been rooting for the Kings, Clippers, Kings, for a long time, at least the Dodgers are winning this year. I think the kings can get back into the playoffs with some good conditioning.

Variable, you got it. My spelling is horrible but that was in there for satire.

MacSwede/Deelo, re Rich/Anthony denial:

I urge you to go to the transcript. He did not deny it. He said, I believe, that his driver's license does not say he's Anthony. Of course it doesn't, any more than my driver's license says I'm Quisp.

"Reports suggest that the Kings are set to offer Jack Johnson, Alexander Frolov, the fifth and 96th overall picks in the 2009 draft."- talk about overpayment...

However, it's also feasible to send Frolov to OTT for Heatley and then sign Gaborik on 7/1 at a discount due to injuries etc.

I can see swapping 5th for the 9th or maybe.......throwing in the 35th and keeping our 5th.

No way Fro JJ and the 5th. Fro and JJ straight up-jeh ok, still got the 5th and PHI needs cap relief. 5th for the Hartnell and the 21st. Boyah!

-J:

If it's Frolov and Johnson for Heatley, I think we'd also swap picks (5 and 9) and make them take Preissing. Then, if possible, sign Gaborik and be solid on the left for the first time since Luc.

Heatley/Kopitar/Williams
Gaborik/Stoll/Brown
Lewis/Handzus/Simmonds
Purcell/Kane/Moller

Quincey/Doughty
Drewiske/Greene
SOD/Hickey-Voynov

We really need another center, whether it's through trade/FA/draft.

Bergeron would be nice. Roy would be good, too.

As far as Fro goes, no team is going to take a 1-year rental. We're stuck with him(oh damn). If DL manages to deal Fro, it's almost like unloading Preissing's contract(not really, but it's similar), and an amazing feat of management.

If we get Heatley, it will be:

Heatley-x-x
Frolov-x-x

Again, damn.

Quisp

I like that one. 7 mil for 7 mil and Kassien at nr. 9.

Do it!

Jack Johnson, Alexander Frolov, the fifth and 96th overall picks in the 2009 draft
-There is no one in the NHL worth that-except CROSBY, MALKIN, or OVIE
Teubert and the 96th for Hatnell

i just don't understand how trading frolov is the best solution...unless he is somehow offered in a package for kovy...which i think would have to also include a second winger coming here...how can that be done...?

i don't get some of the opinions/logic here of late...
...and i definitely don't understand/believe a lot of these rumors posing as factual conversations or proposals...

MATT GEORGE...

that deal sounds like way too much to give up for a malcontent who's forcing his team to make a deal...
didn't rich already confirm in not-so-many-words that frolov is NOT on the dealing table...? i'm not naive to the point that gm's don't discuss many players, scenarios and deals that don't get reported...but...
how does a deal like the one you mention sound appealing to d.l...?
you can only make a deal like that if you are absolutely, positively certain that you are able to also bring in hossa or gabby AND have enough room under the cap to get it all in AND not ruin the long range plans...

depending on what site info you go by, frolov is scheduled to make either $2.9mil or $4mil...(i think it's $4mil)...d.l. has already said that he might be willing to keep frolov for at least half the season...perhaps the whole...if they have trouble in the negotiations...

and why would d.l. not even give the time of day or not even attempt to break bread and begin talks w/fro & his agent come july 1st...???

you would think there would be some respect towards a king original 1st rounder who was the teams leading goal scorer l.y. and is well liked by fans and his teammates...

it doesn't make a lot of sense...(unless we're talking kovy deals)...for d.l. to burn that bridge...

when a player holds a team hostage, like heater has done to the sens, the leverage is with the teams pursuing...not the team being "forced" to deal him...
that fact cannot be overlooked...

Quisp:

So you are softening on the possibillity of trading Fro for Heat ;) I think you have good suggestions here, but I think its too much to give them Fro, JJ and 5th for Heat and 9th...

And you lineup STILL has Kane on it?? I doubt he will drop to 9, and we wont trade from 9 to 4 just with iceberg.

Could Gaborik play on the left? In that case I think we wont have to go for Heat at all! KEEP the pick! KEEP Fro! KEEP JJ and get Gaborik!

Fro/Kopi/JW
Gabi/Stoll/Brown
Moller/Handzus/Simmonds
Ivanans/Lewis/Richardson

Johnson/Doughty
Quincey/Greene
Hickey/Voinov-SOD/Drewiske

I forgot to mention that in my suggestion we have either Schenn/Kane or MPS to step in when ready

Ersberg, re centers:

Kopitar
Stoll
Handzus
Moller
(Kane? Schenn?)
Boyle
Lewis
Loktionov
Azevedo

I think what you're getting at is, both Handzus and Stoll are #3 centers; as a result, we lack a true #2 (or, if Kopitar is a true #2, then we lack a true #1) and a true #4. Ideally, one of the five or six prospects can step it up. The problem is, they have to get their shots to play at some point. If the middle is clogged with Kopitar, Stoll, Handzus, then there's really only one center spot open. I had been thinking about the Kings maybe re-signing Lappy, who is available, but that would shut the door completely on Boyle, for example, who only plays C.

Khanon81,
Done.
If Justin Williams sxores more goals, not points than POS, not only will I apologize to you, I'll leave this site for good.
Notice I said Goals, not points. I have a feeling our old fart coach is gonna play favortism and play JW 30 minutes a game with Kopitar, thus he might squeeze by with extra points.
But more goals than Sully? No Way.
What are you gonna sacrafice if POS scores more goals?

Quisp- I still think that's overpayment. Ottawa is forced to trade Heatley and every GM knows it. They also are under the gun with the draft, free agency, and heatley's 4-million dollar bonus deadlines rapidly approaching. I think it will cost at most one roster player and some prospects, but JJ, Frolov, and the 5th- that's basically three first round picks, including two top 5 picks. Way too much, especially given ottawa's position.

I too assume that if there is a trade, preissing will be involved and if the 5th goes, it goes in a swap for 9th.

Also, i'd be a little concerned long term with adding big lengthy contracts for both heatley and gaborik (i'm guessing he'll be in the 4-6 mil range for the cap hit, depending on the number of years signed), especially two years down the road when doughty, moller, simmonds, williams and a few others (some of hickey, voynov, loktionov etc) are due new contracts.

This is interesting :) You are willing to make that debt against a two times 30 goal scorer? POS has scored 22 goals at most, and that on the side with Kopi and Brown..

MacSwede:

No, I want to keep Frolov. I just see the reality that -- for example -- he is one player other teams covet. Johnson being another one. Players in the last years of their contracts are always vulnerable.

Gaborik is a left wing. I'm with you that Frolov and Gaborik on the left side is good. I was merely offering the alternative plan of letting Fro go knowing that Gaborik can be had to replace him.

I'm not sold on Heatley. Just playing the thought experiment.

If I am DL, I would bring Heatley in only if I can avoid dealing Frolov or the 5th back. Also, I keep that friggin' pick. One last dip in the top-five pick well. Kane, MSP, Schenn or Cowan.

I wouldn't be opposed to dealing Stoll and Johnson for picks to someone and using the cap space to sign Hossa AND Gaborik. How about them apples?

Frolov/Kopitar/Hossa
Gaborik/Moller/Brown
Lewis/Handzus/Simmonds
Purcell/Kane-Schenn/Williams

Before anybody comments, I preemptively declare my own proposal insane.

I'm just not sold on the Danny Heatley idea. Forget the trade logistics...acquiring him will be ultra expensive, and I'm sure DL isn't impressed with the trade request being so public. Its now the second time he's requested a trade. Ok...so the first time, in Atlanta, there was reason to give him the benefit of the doubt. But with a GM that emphasises developing leadership in the room so much, who is Heatley to contribute after his public request? He showed no concern for the welfare of the Sens. Burke made a damn good point about how Heater went public. And for those who question Burke by saying he took on Pronger after he wanted out of Edmonton...look it up. The Oilers were the ones that went public, not Pronger. So its a totally different story.

But here's where I'm stuck...from the UFA's out there like Hossa, Gaborik, Havlat, Sendins (ya right)...one could argue that they all have a bit of that 'me first' mentality that Heater is being criticized for. So in the end, for me, it comes down to cost. Who would be the most bang for the buck...so if DL is willing to make a deal, and move personnel around, I would much rather prefer seeing him pass on heatley and chase down Lecavalier. The man oozes leadership and consistency. But in my opinion...a UFA is the best possible option. Gaborik is my pick to be the most likely man to end up in a Kings jersey. At least for now...until another ridiculous rumor throws everything off.

I agree with -J completely! You couldn´t have said it better..

Macswede,
JW is a has been and is injury prone.
He did nothing in LA last season.
Only scored one goal, and that's because Kopitar kept on feeding him on a 5-3 power play against the coyotes, whose goalie was a rookie.

Anthonyy, FYI- POS only scored 1 more goal (and had 1 more assist) than Williams did after the trade, and he played in 7 more games.

Quisp-

Kopitar
1a/1b

Stoll
3rd line

Handzus
3rd/4th line

Moller
Should stay on as a wing

(Kane? Schenn?)
We may deal the 5th, but Kane/Schenn are mostly like 2 years out.

Boyle
Unproven

Lewis
Unproven, but I'm really hoping he breaks through as #2 guy.

Loktionov
Azevedo
Unproven/AHL'ers

We really need another center. Play-making centers generate goals. We can still sign a good winger if we deal/sign a center.

Opposing teams are simply shutting down Kopi's line, resulting in us having low offensive numbers. They'll do it again next season unless we break the pattern.
Most teams roll with one checking line. If we have dominant 1a/1b centers, it will life more difficult for them.

See Detroit, Pitts, SJ

"anthonyy said:
Khanon81,
Done.
If Justin Williams sxores more goals, not points than POS, not only will I apologize to you, I'll leave this site for good.
Notice I said Goals, not points. I have a feeling our old fart coach is gonna play favortism and play JW 30 minutes a game with Kopitar, thus he might squeeze by with extra points.
But more goals than Sully? No Way. "

Hey Anthonyy--

Don't forget our little wager!
You can't leave the site forever if you've got some 'splaining to do'...

Oh, and another thing:

The bet is still on if POS is traded--let's say, to Ottawa...
...And, our bet is POINTS.

:)

Quisp,

You make some crazy suggestions sometimes ;) But I understand your point, and I am also aware of, as I told you before, that we might end up trading fro because of his coming free agency.

But whatabout Calder? All of you keep forgetting him.. Is he gone allready?? He DID play rather good with Stoll and Brown, and he also scored some goals in Power Play.

If we have to give up one of our 3rd centers, is really Stoll more of an option than Zus? Zus played great last year, but Stoll is much younger right?

And at last, Anthony... I know JW sucked last year, but he has still more to give. And POS only scored 3 goals in 19 games with EDM..

wow...QUISP...what's in yr kool-aid of late...?
i'm glad you bit yr own tongue on that one...!

anybody who thinks that we are going to get hossa at this point is mining for fool's gold...yeah...it's possible...but highly unlikely...

anybody who thinks we are going to get BOTH hossa and gabby...bellevue is waiting for you...

-J makes a lot of sense in his planing of current players under contract...

that's why...unless d.l. has completely changed his point of view this week...a lot of this speculation doesn't make sense...

i'm not saying it's impossible...(except for the hossa & gabby situation)...but extremely unlikely...

i would also like to point out how temperamental gm's seem to be these days about proposed deals being leaked out...(please refer to the sully deal, among others)...and how many of these "rumor" sites gave been dead wrong and not even in the ballpark of what actually has or will transpire in reality...

last week...jmfj was going everywhere...to the KHL...to the ducks...even to kazakhstan...for a herd of alpaca's, i think...

i don't think we are remotely interested in heater as being reported...

anyone can look at the kings and the salary cap room we have and go hog wild w/all the possibilities...

...and i'm starting to think everybody has...

Quisp- is Gaborik a native LW? Everything I've found points to him being a RW. Admittedly, I haven't watched minny enough when he's actually in the line up to pay attention to which side he plays on, but he's listed as a RW in most official pubs (NHLPA, NHL, Wild roster) etc.

Alright, just watched a bunch of video on him, and it looked to me (based on his defensive, break out, and PP positioning )like he was mostly playing as a RW, but it also looked like he could play LW if he had to.

doesn't anybody else think that maybe waiting one more training camp to see who actually takes the initiative w/the enormous amount of talent/prospects already in the system might be in everyone's best interest...?

i still say the safest and most logical direction to go would be...:

- to take a good stab at gabby...2 or 3 years at $5-6mil/per sounds about right w/a bunch of injury clauses in there, hoping gabby & co. realize the reality of his situation...if he wants more, good luck to him...
- don't go after the harnells, neils, etc. of the league...that's really more of the same...or more of what we have that could flourish into the same type of player...you add those players as compliments to yr team...not the foundation...
- take a legit shot at hossa...(very doubtful)...
- wait for the UFA class of 2010 and do nothing...

Oh, and going with the comments suggesting Rich/Anthonyy has Multiple Poster Personality Disorder (MPPD)...

Who, exactly, is Variable's Knife?

-J

I understand your thoughts on the centers, and I agree that 2 star centers makes a winning team...BUT (here it is)... I think that Quisp means that we could get there, maybe not next year but after that. We have a lot of center prospects, but no one has break out yet. So if you are talking about NEXT season only, then YES we really need a 2nd/1st line center. But in the long run we might get there with what we have now...

MacSwede- Calder is a UFA and I don't think many expect/want him back. I'd consider him for the 3rd/4th line wing spot potentially as I think he's still a pretty good grinder and I liked much of his game through the latter half of the year (but not for what he was being paid). Of course, his contract would have to be somewhere in the 1 mil range.

POS had only 2 goals for edmonton, not 3.

Ersberg -

I'm not disagreeing with you, really. But I do think it's about choosing between bringing in proven players or letting your prospects develop. The Kings have three legitimate NHL-caliber forwards. As you pointed out (roughly) it's a #2 and 2 #3 centers, but that's what it is. Handzus is not a #4, though he can play that (for his $4MM). Stoll is not a #2. Kopitar is not a #1 (yet). Two years from now (say), Kopitar may have grown into the #1 spot, Moller or Loktionov may be able to take the #2 spot, Stoll can sit comfortably at #3 and Handzus will be gone. But the players who have yet to develop into their ultimate potential aren't just going to wake up one day and be "it." My concern is that bringing in a 4th center means no prospect gets to play this year at the center position. That strikes me as a problem.

Which is why I'm frequently imagining dealing Stoll or Handzus away. They're both valuable players, and I like them. But sometime in the next two seasons, one of them is going to have to go. Handzus, probably. But who knows.

"or 3 years at $5-6mil/per sounds about right w/a bunch of injury clauses in there," injury clauses as i think you mean them are not allowed under the CBA.

Agree, might be best to see what improvements the team makes and wait for 2010. I'm not that hot on really any of the 09 FA's. IMO, they just don't seem to fit all that well with the direction DL is trying to take the team.

MacSwede- i think you meant that one on centers for Ersberg, that was his post.

Variable-

Ask yourself, who is going to feed the puck to our 2nd-line wingers? Stoll? He's a PP-qb and face-off specialist. Zus? You know the answer to that.

What would really help the Kings through a trade/signing? If what you decide is truly Gaborik, who is going to make the plays to the 2nd line, at that point?

Quisp-

"Which is why I'm frequently imagining dealing Stoll or Handzus away."

Ding ding..you got it. They both bring a little of what each guy brings, plus they're both expensive.

I'm thinking we deal one of them 'this' season, and let Lewis take that players spot, IF he shows he can in camp.

Sorry J, I mixed you up with Ersberg... It is high frequency in here tonight, and the posts keep coming every minute..

But sorry guys, it is 00:22 here in Sweden, so it is time for bed now. Luckily I have a day off tomorrow, called midsummers eve.. which means a lot of herring and schnaps!! :)

I think you all have great patience regarding the Kings future, but remember Lombardis letter.... next year is nearly a playoff spot a MUST.

Bako,
I remember our bet.
But our wager was a gentlemans bet, which I know you are.

-J...

the injury clauses are always wishful thinking on my part...and i do forget that it's not allowed in the NHL w/the current CBA agreement...thank you for once again reminding me of that...

BAKO...

buddy...i don't have any weapons...except for what lies between the ears & behind the eyes...and maybe below the belt, as well...(sorry...it was a good setup...i couldn't resist)

however, if you do find out whom "my knife" is, please send them my direction so that they can tell me what that is or means...?...:-)

variable -

(1) as you point out, I am well-aware that my Hossa/Gaborik scenario is insane. However,
(2) it's a money thing. There is no reason in theory why both can't be had, given the cap room.
(3) Hossa. Everyone keeps saying Hossa is going to sign with the Wings. I still don't see how that's going to work. Due mostly to the fact that I know how to add. See http://kwisp.wordpress.com/2009/06/13/i-think-hossa-will-sign-a-dirt-cheap-contract-with-the-wings/ Bottom line, if Hossa is willing to sign a contract for $1-2MM (which would be insane), the Wings would STILL have to give up Hudler, Samuelsson and one of Stuart or Kronwall, and -- if the cap goes down, they would have to deal someone else -- Holmstrom being the best bet, at that point. And that's if he signs for 3 or 4 million LESS than everyone is saying he's going to get, which in turn is 2 or 3 million LESS than what he turned down last summer to play in Detroit. If Hossa gets even $5MM per season, the Wings will have to lose Hudler, Samuelsson, one of Stuart or Kronwall, and Holmstrom and someone else with a big contract. Say Cleary.

Is Ken Holland going to choose Hossa over Hudler, Samuelsson, Stuart, Holmstrom and Cleary?

Now, even without considering Hossa, Holland is going to have to lose one of those five guys to stay under the cap. But with Hossa, he's going to lose all of them.

And once Hossa hits the open market, the Kings look like about the best option he has, although Columbus is also a possibility. No one else can afford him. Phoenix? Ha ha ha.

macswede -

Calder is UFA. I would rather see prospects come in than re-sign him.

I forgot to mention, the reason I imagine dealing Stoll and not Handzus is that Handzus has a NMC. He might approve a deal to Detroit at the trade deadline, but not to Ottawa in the off-season.

To continue with the theme I think MacSwede just may be Matty Norstrom...;)

Variable, re injury clauses:

The CBA does allow injury clauses in contracts, if the player missed more than 100 days the previous season, which Gaborik did. The problem is, the contract must be a one-year deal. Maybe that's not a problem, maybe it's a blessing. But Gaborik will certainly attempt to sign a long-term non-injury-clause-dependent contract somewhere, before he resorts to a one-year deal. I think he will take less money for three years, rather than more money for one year with asterisks. But again, what do I know? Money is tight. The cap makes it tighter. We'll see.

NTC/NMC aren't really that much. If a GM asks a guy to waive, chances are he will. No player wants to play where he's not wanted.

$6-8m for a player where some 20-year is feeding him the puck isn't realistic.

I see what you guys are striving for, but it's hard to imagine happening.

Frolov-Kopitar-Hossa...check
Brown-Stoll-Williams? ...........

I'm having difficulties filling out these lines with all these RW's, and not enough LW's or realistic centers.

"variable said:
doesn't anybody else think that maybe waiting one more training camp to see who actually takes the initiative w/the enormous amount of talent/prospects already in the system might be in everyone's best interest...?
i still say the safest and most logical direction to go would be...:
…
- wait for the UFA class of 2010 and do nothing..."

V:
Can't see anything wrong with that idea.

At some point, some of the Boys DL's brought to the Dance have got to start producing for real, not only inside DL's wet dreams. 2009-2010 is as good a year as any to hold the players responsible for their own development. Another thing to consider, what of TM? DL gave his first Kings' coach two years. The owners likely will can both DL and TM if 2009-2010 is a disaster, but if it is a plus .500/no playoffs year does TM stay on for year three? The already drafted talent pool starts arriving in earnest in 2010-2011, DL's grace period will be over, and the salary cap likely will have gone down.

2010-2011 is the year we get the big free agent, change coaches for the last time under DL (unless we take off by then), and shed at least two already under contract name forwards (top six). Assume we know what Frolov can and cannot do. No one knows yet just what Kopitar/Brown/Simmonds/Lewis/Purcell have as their top level of achievement. Put it this way, which scenario is the greatest disaster:

1) Big trade, involves two or three of K/B/S/L/P +/- a first round draft pick, +/- one of the defensive hotties, get a name forward, AND the Kings don't make the playoffs;

2) Stand largely pat, remind all players in camp that this is the year or cut bait, wait to see if another salary cap gem-in-the-rough appears by December... AND the Kings don't make the playoffs.

The worst case scenario is number 2). By far, no question... The trade eliminates our hope for the long-term future, and the lack of improvement leaves everyone with that jaded, just-lost-my-wife for the mistress who turned out to be nothing but a money-spending #@$&* while remaining cold as ice. Do we want the Kings to end up like Ottawa or the Islanders?

ERSBERG...

i totally understand where ya' coming from and what yr saying...yr absolutely right about the second-line center...and if it's not already kopi, who do we get for the first line...?

(i hope this list repro's well)

Player Age Team 08-09 Salary Notes
Mats Sundin 38 VAN $7,000,000
Joe Sakic 39 COL $6,000,000
Saku Koivu 34 MON $4,750,000
Mike Comrie 28 OTT $4,000,000
Sergei Fedorov 39 WAS $4,000,000
Robert Lang 38 MON $4,000,000
Mike Cammalleri 27 CGY $3,600,000
Henrik Sedin 28 VAN $3,575,000
Steve Sullivan 34 NAS $3,200,000
John Madden 36 NJ $2,938,540
Brendan Morrison33 DAL $2,750,000
Todd Marchant 35 ANA $2,660,000
Bobby Holik 38 NJ $2,500,000
Viktor Kozlov 34 WAS $2,500,000
Mike Sillinger 38 NYI $2,300,000
Jason Williams 28 CLB $2,200,000
Nik Antropov 29 NYR $2,150,000
Rob Niedermayer 34 ANA $2,000,000
Steven Rein. 33 PHO $2,000,000
Tyler Arnason 30 COL $1,750,000
Derek Armstrong 36 LA $1,600,000
Radek Bonk 33 NAS $1,600,000
Manny Malhotra 29 CLB $1,500,000
Samuel Pahlsson 31 CHI $1,400,000
Michael Peca 35 CLB $1,315,000
Steve Begin 31 DAL $1,300,000
Chris Gratton 33 CLB $1,250,000
Jeremy Roenick 39 SJ $1,100,000
Marty Reasoner 32 ATL $1,000,000
Patrick Riss. 30 NYR $1,000,000
Vernon Fiddler 29 NAS $900,000
Dean McAmmond 36 NYI $900,000
Dominic Moore 28 BUF $900,000
Scott Nichol 33 NAS $750,000
Eric Perrin 35 ATL $750,000
Stephane Yelle 27 BOS $750,000
Scott Nichol 34 NAS $750,000
Brian Sutherby 27 DAL $700,000
Michael Zigomn. 28 PIT $650,000
Blair Betts 29 NYR $615,000
Jason Krog 33 VAN $605,000
Boyd Devereaux TOR $600,000
Jamie Lundmark 28 CGY $600,000
Janis Sprukts 27 FLA $600,000
Mike Glumac MON $550,000
Yanick Lehoux MON $550,000
Grant Stevenson ATL $550,000
Josh Green ANA $525,000
Mike Iggulden NYI $525,000
Craig Macdonald 32 CLB $515,000
Eric Boguniecki ANA $500,000
Carl Corazzini EDM $500,000
Mark Cullen VAN $500,000
Carsen Germyn CGY $500,000
Matt Hendricks COL $500,000
Steve Kelly CLB $500,000
Krystofer Kolanos27 MIN $500,000
Cory Larose SJ $500,000
Bryan Lundbohm MIN $500,000
Greg Mauldin OTT $500,000
Mike Rupp NJ $500,000
Wyatt Smith PHO $500,000
Nathan Smith COL $500,000
Trent Whitfield STL $500,000
Colton Fretter BUF $475,000
Alexandre Giroux28 WAS $475,000
Ben Guite 30 COL $475,000
Ryan Murphy NJ $475,000
Kris Newbury 27 TOR $475,000
Michael Ryan 29 CAR $475,000

that's a very unappealing list...

what do you do...?

go for antropov...? domminic moore...? jason williams...? sammy pahlsson...? even steve sullivan...?

it's looking more and more like either we do it w/a major blockbuster trade (IE: vinny) or wait for the farm to sprout...or like we've been saying, wait for 2010...

i could only imagine how many fan suicide attempts/reports we would get on this site if d.l. actually chose to do nothing-to-very little before next season...

i'm starting to believe that nothing-to-very little...believe it or not...might be our best option...

Oakland Tribune Feb 6, 2004

"Also, strength and conditioning coach Tim Adams was dismissed less than a year after implementing a fitness plan hailed by coaches and players as fresh and innovative. The Raiders ended the season with 13 players on the disabled list."

Terrific....

variable said:

doesn't anybody else think that maybe waiting one more training camp to see who actually takes the initiative w/the enormous amount of talent/prospects already in the system might be in everyone's best interest...?

Hi Var! Umm, to answer your question, no absolutely not. Where have you been? Oh, sorry guess you didn't hear that we're getting Hossa and possibly Gabby, then Chris Neil to solidify the 3rd line, and then... :-)
If everybody thought the way you do (which means essentially the way I do and others here) then the number of posts on certain stories would probably be a lot less. Another lesson to me to be respectful of others opinions I suppose no matter how they appear to me?

Also one more comment on the multitude of various comments about players with high salaries that teams won't be able to sign because of cap issues. I feel that in certain cases there are very real limitations... i.e. Detroit because pretty much everyone on the roster counts. Philly also clearly has cap limitations to deal with. However it seems to me that rather than make attractive players available because they're over the cap I expect most teams when possible to try and trade off and/or buyout certain players who are perhaps in the 2.5 to 4 mil range. This would make them far less likely to have to move players of the Simon Gagne, Phil Kessel, Valieri Filpula ilk.
Again using logic, a team like Philly is far more likely to trade an older player like a Mike Knuble who is good but is also 36 yrs old and will be 37 during the season. So thoughts of nabbing a Simon Gagne or Danny Briere are nice, but seem far less probable to me.

P.S. I used Philly as an example above, but it could be anyone of a number of other teams as well.

How can you guys fairly compare NHL hockey players against one another when they have different strength coaches? just sayin (and this thread got way off topic).

V--

Remember the movie 'A Clear and Present Danger'...

" daggar this is knife! over! daggar, this is knife! over! daggar this is knife. Where the heck are you?!
Variable, this is Knife! Over!...Variable, this is Knife! Over!... Variable, this is Knife! Where the heck are you!?!?"

QUISPY...

i hear ya'...i know holland has got some tough flowers to press & that something's gotta give...

i also already corrected myself on the injury clause blunder...thanx...

RE: hossa

what if holland does the following...:

- doesn't re-sign chelios (a given)...
- let stuart walk...
- trades rafalski and his $6mil (hmmmm...why not...? they have depth, right...?)
- trades cleary...(again...why not...? he's going to be worth as much now as he ever will be...)

hypothetically...(a word that we, here, are all too in love with)...depending on if he demands draft picks for the future in return for the aforementioned "trade-able" players...he saves roughly $8-10mil in salary and then has a lot of room to sign hossa, hudler, etc...rafalski's $6mil per would be the toughest to move for a variety of reasons... but if holland calls up slats and entices him w/some type of expensive rare cuban cigar...well...who knows... wade redden, anyone...???

i definitely would not put it past kenny (you bastard) holland to be as inventive as possible and make something like this happen...

BAKO...

i agree w/you (as usual)...something's gotta give...d.l. has to be right on at least 2 of these forwards already in the organization...right...?!?!?!?

#6...

hey, buddy...
hang in there...
i do think yr on to something w/the flyers...i think they will try to be as busy as possible trying to make cap/roster improvements...but so will the rangers and others who are in cap hell...
...and if it involves us...ohhhhh, brutha...i'm taking my phone off the hook and not opening my laptop to come to this site...(jk)...

we are posting at a frenetic clip today...i think we're setting a "non-chat roll" record for frequency...

...and all this under the thread of a strength and conditioning coach hire...

hockey lord...
please...
give me the strength to continue...(!)

if i forgot to respond to any other good comments, i'll get back to ya'...

i need some fresh air...:)

Best case scenario, and a doable deal.

To PHI
Ersberg (G) 750K, 2 years
Preissing (D) 2.75, 2 years
2nd Rd Pick (2010) PHI original pick
4th Rd Pick (2009)

To LAK
Simon Gagne (LW) 5.25M, 2 years
James vanRiemsdyk (LW) TBD, 3 years entry contract

fire away!

BAKO...

sorry...liked the movie, but don't remember that line...

since you we're making a nat king cole reference earlier, i though you were dropping a bobby darin "mack the knife" ref...

ok...really...it's time for walkies...i need a break...!

If anyone had a chance to see Lombardi's interview on Kings Vision before it was mysteriously pulled down, he was saying how he FINALLY has some cards to play with. That in previous drafts he couldn't trade put picks because our organization was so depleted with previous bad picks and players who didn't pan out. Now he feels he has to depth to move picks.

I firmly believe there is a deal on the table. A deal that did not go down at the trade deadline because the other team didn't know where our first round pick would be. Now it can be revisited because all the pieces and assets are in place.

Something HUGE will be going down on draft day and don't be surprised when that 5th pick is traded.

Philly,

I know you are kidding with that proposed deal. That is in now way doable especially since the Flyers just signed Emery. The only way Gagne comes this way is if Philly gets seriously involved in Boumeester and are forced to dump salary. Should that happen it will NOT be Gagne. Hartnell perhaps but certainly not both Hartnell and JVR.

Variable-

No, not UFA. Trade.

You know a couple guys that would truly be great on this team? They're both from the same team, too.

Savard
Bergeron

I bet we could pry one of those two guys from Boston. And I'd also bet we could do it without giving up the 5th overall pick as well.

There's another guy that might be had that we could get, but he might cost a bit more since he's on SJ...

Pavelski

He's a gamer, too. He would be awesome with Brown and Moller, I'd bet. Granter, Moller would have to play LW.

Thanks for taking the time to extract that list, though. It's truly remarkable what some of those guys make as UFA's.

Our biggest needs are a second line center and a left winger..

Derek Roy would be a very nice fit at the second line
Valtteri Filppula or Jiri Hudler would be a nice fit on the second line
Patrice Bergeron " " " " " "

But if we're trading for Dany Heatley, will we have enough assets to acquire a number 2 center? We probably will, but I don't think DL wants to sell the farm (neither do us fans).. Realistically it would probably be a trade for Heatley and the signing of a center (which is going to be tough since there aren't many elite ones on the UFA market)..

The sedin twins can fix our problems..?

Frolov - Kopitar - Williams
Sedin - Sedin - Brown

Or we can just trade for Derek Roy or Patrice Bergeron and sign Marian Gaborik

Frolov - Kopitar - Williams
Gaborik - Roy/Bergeron - Brown

AK47 Author Profile Page said:
The sedin twins can fix our problems..?

Frolov - Kopitar - Williams
Sedin - Sedin - Brown

that would be nice but its rumored that they want a deal equal to Zetterbergs 12 year deal. Each. So yea dont think thats going to happen

Mike,

The Sedin Twins wants may be the first to run up against the new realities of the salary cap declining. I think they will either be split up or be forced to sign at much, much less.

At some point soon, the insane demands of some of the stars are going to go unfulfilled.

Put it this way: If the Kings won't do it, who else would be insane enough (and have cap room enough) to do it?

variable, re wings and cap:

Yes, if you trade Stuart AND Rafalski AND Cleary, you can sign Hossa at $5MM and also retain Hudler and Samuelsson. But you've basically decimated the defense. Your version is give up Stuart, Rafalski and Cleary. Mine was give up Hudler, Samuelsson, Stuart and Cleary. Obviously, whether you give up two of your top four d (your model), or only one top d and two key forwards, either way it's brutal.

AND

it assumes the cap stays the same, which it probably won't, and also assumes that Stuart, Hudler and Rafalski are all traded for picks and prospects (otherwise you're not clearing cap space), which if you think about it, is kind of extreme.

var, your next to last post is great.... i'm smiling... the whole thing. you reminded me too... if there is movement like you say w teams over the cap, i'd do well to do a half hour of buddic breathing before i go on to the site....
..... and yeah, that dawned on me too.... all this under the heading of a strength and conditioning coach.....
GO TIM!!!

Hi. Since we are all fantasizing here about the Kings future, I think I will put my two cents in.

Keeping it simple, I think we should do two things:

First, trade for the No. 1 pick in the draft. One thing that is for certain is that NYI has a horrible pipeline of talent. The Kings can provide depth. The Kings trade the #5 pick and 3-4 of our 'prospects' (JJ, Boyle, Purcell, Lewis ...take your pick) to NYI for the #1 pick. We then pick Victor Hedman. I know some of you think Mr. Lombardi has a thing against Swedes but you should also remember that he understands the value of a 'once-in-a-generation' D-man. (Secondarily - this move really pissed the TB owners off cuz they have to pick Tavares. Not that that is bad but how do you win with three #1 centers and no D?)

Secondly, you sign Gáborík for a high $$$ one-year deal. If he stays healthy and enjoys playing here, you resign him during the season to a longer, more cap-friendly deal.

And that's it!

Lets hope he can light the same fire under the team that he did under this blog

Rich, please find out of this was Lie-weekly's doing

Next season's chant will go from "Go Kings Go" to "Drop that Cap". I thik next summer will be even more fun than this summer.

I agree with whoever said that the guy needs to clean up the spelling on his web page. It'd be nice if he re-did his streaming audio, too, because he hesitates too much and it makes him sound like a dufus. Did anyone check to see how much his ultimate bullshit program (can't remember what the actual name of it is) costs? I wonder, if he's doing a private training program for hockey players who might not be in the Kings' system, maybe some minor leaguers somewhere, wouldn't that be a major conflict of interest?

You know, it occurs to me that, mathematically, there are a finite number of slots throughout the entire league at certain per year levels. For example, how many $5 million dollar a year players can be afforded in the NHL? If you say one per team, then that means 30 $5 million slots are available. If someone signs for more than that, then that would affect lower $ per year slots.

You could almost think about DL's player slots, but in reverse. A UFA pending this year then could look at the number of open slots, then judge his chances of getting one of them. Think of it this way: this is a zero sum game. Once the total number of slots are gone, there is ZERO CHANCE of getting that level of pay. This is the reason long contracts are becoming the norm for the truly great players, because there is no way to increase salary to meet the player's demands. Problem is, there will be a day of comeuppance for teams with long contracts. Unless there is a way to remove payroll obligation from cap consideration when a player has retired, there will be a time when buying players on cap credit cap bankrupts a team.

The only way that certain teams can afford a Hossa will be to shed salary; that kind of move will eventually absorb enough pay slots to force players to retire or move on to another league (Can anyone say KHL?)

I don't have the information but the formula is simple: Add up total league salary commitments for year X, subtract that total from the yearly cap x30 teams=the available monies to free agents. Add up the UFAs old contracts, then subtract that number from the available monies (assume the UFAs won't sign for less). That becomes the available pool for salary increases league-wide. No matter how you do the math, there will come a time each year when that pool dries to zero, especially when you subtract moneys from teams that will not spend up to the cap.

Perhaps we have been going about this in the wrong way. There will be a time in the near-future when the pool is so small no pay raises will be available for UFAs; then what happens? Either force players to retire and somehow get their numbers off the books, or you will end up with UFAs fighting over a finite number of NHL high pay slots.

It is possible I don't understand how these long-term contracts will count against the cap. Help, V, Quispie, anyone out there!

It just seems that players like Hossa MUST end up with the KHL, in order to get paid at the levels they expect. Either the compensation rules must change in the NHL long-term, or this system will force early retirement to a lot of players so they can be bought out and come off the books. It makes no sense in the current environment to sign a lower six forward or second pair defenseman at market prices for guaranteed money. It makes sense to build your team in-house, hoard your draft choices because they cost little to nothing on the cap, and select your high salary slot players with extreme care.

BAKO...

that's was a great observation and terrific post...!

RE: the KHL...

i could be wrong about this, but they seem to me to be the hockey equivalent of the USFL...meaning, eventually, if they continue to lure NHL talent away from the north american stage by giving huge contracts to elite players, then (by the grounds of yr example) they would be pricing-out themselves to an early grave by overpaying for said talent...which, in turn...would naturally elevate the average players yearly income: there would be no possible way for them to keep up w/an escalating pay scale, unless:

- the teams have a lot more money than i give them credit for having...and can generate the funds needed for such a pace...

- they adopt a weighted pay-scale...meaning that one, two or three players make up 80% of the team payroll...and the others are left w/the crumbs for the sake (?) of a league championship...how many $5mil slots can a KHL team handle...?

- the KHL is really not meant for the long-term and is more of a quick-profit-module for it's investors...

i think there's a lot of smoke and mirrors going on with them...i mean, there was even talk earlier this year of jagr coming back because his camp thought that they were payroll problems with his avangard omsk contract...at $10 mil/per...shows you jagr's true colors...but i don't necessarily blame him too much...that's a lot of moola to walk away from...

so...i think the KHL doesn't have a very good infrastructure...and i think that's being polite...all you need is one of their owners to go euro soccer/yankees on the other teams and...viola...it's over...

as we know very well here in north american sports...rich owners are terrible at policing themselves...although it might seem like a worrisome trend, i do think that the pace of players "defecting" to the KHL will significantly decline AFTER next season...again, unless there's an awful lot more money/revenue available to the already existing teams that i'm not aware of, they are going to be in vetty, vetty big trouble sooner than later...very much the same reason why the USFL couldn't survive...

RE: long-term deals...

johan franzen's contract is structured to hit the wings at an average of $3.95mil per, with the majority of the money being paid up front and the last two years at $1mil/per...

henrik zetterberg's deal is structured almost identical...with an avg. annual cap hit of $6mil/per and w/the last two years also at $1mil/per...

there's a bunch of different ways you can look at this...

but basically...unless the league experiences a record amount of future revenue during the terms of both deals...the red wings will hurt during the middle years of both deals, gaining some relief towards the end, but still absorbing the "value" of the deal annually...it also makes both players nearly impossible to move...both have NTC/NMC worded inside them...i think franzen's is for the first 5 or 6 seasons...

and then comes the "disability insurance" aspect...if one of these players...ovechkin, vinny, dipietro, mike richards, etc...gets an unfortunate career-ending injury...where's homer simpson? because there's gonna be a whole lotta "DOOH!"...

most of these players will probably never play out their whole deal...and if they do, depending on their individual performances and whether or not their respective team can win a cup or two, then i guess you can say "genius!"...

but that's a very unlikely scenario...i truly believe that most of these long-term deals will eventually end up like alexei yashin: bought out at a considerable fraction of what the deal is worth...

again, it goes back to the point of how gm's have an awfully difficult time in policing themselves...and the only thing worse than a teenager w/daddy's empty credit card, is a gm w/an owner's carte blanche...

deadcatbounce said:
I agree with whoever said that the guy needs to clean up the spelling on his web page.

Yeah deadcat.. it was me. I was actually sort of surprised no one else picked up on it. I know I'm very "picyune" (however you spell it), but if you don't put care into your website which sells you (we aren't talking extremely difficult words here either) then where does one also not put that same care into one's work? Just a thought.

BTW I notice people are still on about Heatley. I had a slight disagreement with some people wrt to him. But the pundits on nhl radio backed me up (right or wrong) and BB made it even more clear than I ever could have. So why do people here still want Heatley unless they think we can fleece Bryan Murray, but being that TM is his brother I don't think that a very likely scenario at all - also because Bryan Murray is a pretty intelligent hockey man.
Personally I wouldn't necessarily even want to change 1st round draft position to get him unless DL wants to go off the board anyway, but change position Plus Fro or Plus JJ? Really? Not me, no way would I go for that.

Thanks, AKAY.

Frolov - Kopitar - Williams
Gaborik - Roy/Bergeron - Brown

Is that so hard to fathom and/or afford? No.

Guys, you can't just keep climbing the cheap pole and play draft picks. Eventually, their contracts will eat you from the bottom up, and no amount of contract spacing in the world will get you out of it. Plus, if you have 90% youngsters, you'll eventually be in offer-sheet hell with all of the RFA's. We must trade for vets and sign 'some' UFA's.

I completely understand we want to stay somewhat "young", but that doesn't mean we can't aquire some top players, while simultaneously have a deep prospect pool. I think some of us are gun shy because our past problems with GM's trading our farm and/or FA's fleeing at the first sign of trouble. That's why we have new management.

Lets go get us some affordable experience, and the let the playoff era begin.

Let's keep it simple,
1. Stay the course, keep our draft pick, and pick the best talent available.
2. Try to sign a top 10 ten free agent, if not wait till 2010-2011 to make amove.
3. Sign both Fro and JJ, one of the main problems with the Kings is they aren't patient enough with the kids they bring up.
4. As coach Tony Dungy said "do what you do best". Keep Boyle as a forward and let him play, let the kids have some fun and let them play. You can see what happened to Pitts. when they were aloud to play, they brought home the cup. We need to give the kids a chance.

Not to get back into this number 6, but don't you think its sad that people, including BB, are so quick to indict Heatley when really none of them, including BB, probably know anything of the details of the situation? Are we really that much of a judgemental, holier-than-thou, gossipy culture/society?

One other thing, about Burke's statement "For a player to quietly and professionally ask for a trade, that's fair ball for me. For a player to pop off and say he wants out, or leak it . . . in my mind now, you're no longer interested in your team. You've handcuffed the GM." Funny, if you go back to the initial reports, they all say that Heatley informed Murray that he wants to be traded, with most saying that Murray was informed a week before the report was made. So unless BB is publicly accusing Heatley of leaking it, wouldn't that fit in his own first category of the quite and professional way to do it?

Bako -

That is f'ing fascinating. I am tempted to run those numbers. Sounds like a bit of a long term project, but kind of worth it.

On the subject of long-term deals, one of the rationales is that inflation will eat away at part of the cap hit, so it will be somewhat more worth it in ten years than it seems now. The other is that, if revenues increase, the cap ceiling increases, so the big cap hits are smaller by comparison. And then there's the retirement loophole and the buy-out loophole. If a player retires, I believe the cap is off the books (although there are exceptions, I think; I would have to look it up). And buy-outs become affordable because you pay out 1/3 of the remaining contract over twice the length of the remaining term. So if you have a huge cap hit but you're down to the last years of salary (where the salary isn't very much) you can get yourself out from under the giant cap hit pretty cheaply.

Your zero-sum theory of salaries is worth looking into. I hope I don't become obsessed with it. I made a similar -- but not nearly as sweeping or cool -- observation about individual teams: namely, that there is a very specific ideal balance between jumbo, big, medium and entry level contracts under the cap system. Teams that have more than two jumbos can't sustain it, and can't afford support players. And teams must always promote a certain number of entry level contracts, with a steady stream of them filling in from below, otherwise you end up with a bunch of Derek Armstrongs or, worse, prospects that can't cut it but must be played anyway. By definition, once those entry level contracts "grow up," (see Johnson, Frolov, Cammy, POS, Lubo) you have to decide whether they will fit within your financial plan, and if so, who above them they will be bumping out, because under the cap system you have to bring in new affordable talent.

What's nice about that -- and where it dovetails into your observation -- is that sooner or later the NHLPA is going to realize that its desire to drive up salaries at all costs is actually screwing itself, because the members will end up being driven out of the league by the fact that the system can only afford so many of them. People will figure out that signing for less makes you more viable; it's a balance, obviously.

Your observation is in a way the macro version of my assertion that -- for example -- Hossa's choices this summer are extremely limited. He can only go to a team that has the cap space. That eliminates nearly every team he would ordinarily want to go to. And the teams that can afford him are relatively unattractive, or else downright hideous. By extension (your theory), there are a limited number of teams who can sign ANY of those guys (i.e. Hossa, Gaborik, Havlat), or trade for LaCavalier or Heatley without giving salary back. And the other teams, the ones who would have to dump salary to make room, the dumped players have to go somewhere.

If I'm Hossa, I sign with Detroit for $1MM, for one year. Why not?

Hmm Derek Roy form Buffalo you say? What would be the deal that brings him here. I know Buffalo likes him so who do we give up?

I meant to say that a buy-out pays out 2/3 (not 1/3) of the remaining contract, paid out over twice the remaining term.

Well, we don't have the Kid and/or Gino centering our top-2, so "allowing our kids to play" will result in us drafting 1-3 for the next 7 years. But if that's how people/management wants to do it, then so be it. I guess there's no choice, right?

"If I'm Hossa, I sign with Detroit for $1MM, for one year. Why not?"

With Satan and Sykora vying for a BIG opportunity/payout with the KHL, why not go back to Pitt, where he will still be accepted, NEEDED, and given the BEST chance to win a cup next year?? (Plus, he'll make more cash!)

Simple conjecture.

DL. Stay the course.

ers – You are on the right track, but consider that even if the cap goes down only 1M there will be quite a few veterans and youngsters available at a discount. Look at last year when the cap went up substantially and we were still able to pick up Od and Q essentially for free. Bako also made a good point in that so many teams can not even spend to the cap, every team in the southern half of the US, save the Ducks. Even discounting these teams, I would still expect 10 teams to be over the cap by Labor Day. I would not be surprise if we were offered a 1st to take on a heavy contract for a good player (Briere). The key to poker is patience, patience, patience, and then be aggressive as purgatory. And it is easy to be aggressive when you are holding 9M aces. We are in a great place. We just need to make sure we continue to add character.

one of the things we should also consider is the significant bump in escrow payments from players to the union, which by some estimates, could be as much as 25% of a players contract...

i think a more realistic number will be 18-20%, translating in about $280 - 300 million collectively amongst owners...

still, that's a lot of money being deferred...and especially if the players don't eventually get a major chunk of it back...

even though the nhlpa is going to let the current deal ride until 2011, it sets up what figures to be a very contentious bargaining session come that season...

i wonder how much of this is being discussed during the upcoming UFA/RFA negotiations...?

you have to figure it's going to make some impact to many of the deals being proposed...

Jet-

Very good points, indeed. I'm not in any particular to rush a trade and/or signing, but I am in the belief one or more should be made this off-season. We can make deals and still not max out are cap in the process.

Now that DL didn't actually make that Pronger deal(and some other proposed deals), I'm beginning to believe some more good deals will be in place soon enough. Deals that will make this team very difficult to play against for many years to come.

-J, I didn't personally know that Heatley went to Bryan Murray a week earlier with his demand to be traded, so perhaps he did do it in the right way, but where I have a problem was still with the fact that he wanted out so early after signing a huge contract. I mean, you and I already went thru this before and sort of agreed to disagree. Without knowing anything about the specifics, based on what i Heard thru the press, he wasn't happy with the way the coach was using him.
Again it's just my opinion but w/o knowing more details as stated before I didn't find that enough of a good reason to opt out. That's all. Maybe there was some incredibly unseemly stuff going on about that we didn't hear about. Who knows.

P.S. ....... and if you trade for someone like that, what's to stop him from asking for a trade a year down the road? I personally wouldn't feel comfortable giving up valuable assets for someone with a track record like that unless I found out first hand that he had a very very good reason to ask for above mentioned trade

I'd vote for picking up Satan for a boost in second line scoring and keep the #5 if we don't make a blockbuster trade. I know he is a RW, but Satan is worth 20-25 goals and 20-25 assists, and is not likely to command over 3 million a year, and he is unlikely to command a long multi-year deal. Satan is also good on the PP. With Hossa unlikely willing to sign with us, the Sedin's now costing way too much $, and Gabby an injury waiting to happen, I think Satan is the next best FA that can fit our needs without sacrificing the farm.

I don't think there are many good centers out there on the FA market unless we call up Alexi Yashin (kidding). Whatever DL has planned for the draft, I am anxiously waiting to see what he has up his sleeves. Take the pick, trade the pick I don't care. Young draft stud, Kovy, Vinny, Heatly, heck any once upon a big name FA in a King's jersey is fine by me. I just want to see the transition from a rebuild team into a team in contention. The suspense is killing me.

"I personally wouldn't feel comfortable giving up valuable assets for someone with a track record like that unless I found out first hand that he had a very very good reason to ask for above mentioned trade"

100% agreed. If I'm DL and considering aquiring this guy, I want to know every little bit of why he wants out.

Well said -J. I think when you're a fan of a team like the Kings that have had such a relatively unpleasant history you want to do everything possible to make assurances. When I had first become a fan of the Kings, Charlie Simmer broke his leg during what had been a very good year for him and the Kings. So George McGuire gave the Sabres a first round pick for Richard Martin ("The French Connection" line). He had a knee issue which McGuire assured everyone was fine. He ended up playing I believe ten games for the Kings then retired. Different situation but the sort of thing that makes one say, wow, I'd really best be careful as to how I use my assets.

Quisp - "On the subject of long-term deals, one of the rationales is that inflation will eat away at part of the cap hit, so it will be somewhat more worth it in ten years than it seems now. The other is that, if revenues increase, the cap ceiling increases, so the big cap hits are smaller by comparison."

But what if we are in a deflationary period and revenues decrease. Before you say we are not in a depression, allow me to ask you check with friends and family. See how many have had bonuses, salaries, a 401K match, number of hours, other benefits reduced or an increase in cost for the workers portion of health care or have had to take on more work responsibilities. I assure you that more will have their 'total package' decreased in relation to the amount of work they are doing. And this is not a political statement. I am not saying this contraction process is good or bad. I am just saying that this process will affect hockey also. A big, long term contract is like owning a house. It is great if in 5 years you are still paying the same rent/mortgage and you salary has increased 30%. But what if you are still paying the same rent or mortgage in 5 years and your salary has gone down 20%. Commodity inflation may be alive, but so is labor deflation. We should be very careful with big, long term contracts in the near future.

Rich,

I realized right after I hit the submit button that this may seem directed at your ‘forced sabbatical’ situation. My statement was not made towards any particular situation, but was a general comment on what has troubled many. I apologize if I struck a nerve. That was not my intent. I greatly appreciate every post you put up.

Jet

Anthonyy,

Why do you have so much faith in POS?? Seriously, we saw the best he had to offer, 20 goals as a first line player. I don't think he'll ever score 20 again, he just doesn't have it. The best comparison I can think of is POS is a smaller John Druce. He's garbage. He's small. He's weak. He's wimpy. He's slow. He's soft. He's heartless. He's inaccurate with his shot.

I'll concede one point regarding POS. He had a rough childhood and a crazy father. Besides that, he's a garbage player, a modern day John Druce...

I just dropped my advanced business class. Why spend all that time and money, when in fact, we have our own PH.D's in economics and business right here at "Inside the Kings." It took me about an hour to read all of yesterdays posts, but indeed, was well worth it. You young men and women produced some good stuff.

I just have to throw my opinion in here. JJ, Fro, our 1st and 2nd for Heatly. Are you crazy, hell no!!!! I'm on board with Ersberg and AK regarding their second tier players Savard, Bergeron and Roy and signing Gabby. Matter of fact, the more I think about it, the more I like this scenario.

Jet re inflation/deflation:

It's true that if there is significant deflation then the big contracts will become more expensive, not less. In such an environment, ticket prices would fall, revenues would fall, the cap would fall, and salaries would fall. People who got their contracts before the deflation would of course be getting even more value; however, in such a circumstance, they would probably have to be bought out. I can imagine mass buy-outs under those circumstances. Kind of like a market crash or correction. What would the net effect of that be? It would be like a huge-scale expansion draft, right? Everyone would get to sign with whomever they wanted to; the catch being they would be signing for a fraction of their previous mega-salaries.

I also think the players' union and the league would step in before that and make some constitutional adjustments, for example to allow big salaries to be deferred or something, to prevent the mass-buy-out scenario.

Your point about the danger of these big long-term mega-deals is well-taken, even in a non-apocalyptic outcome. Even now, when the league is reasonably healthy (?), some of these contracts (LaCavalier) are seen to be albatrosses. Also, Heatley's contract w/ bonus. Who needs it? I think the trend will be toward more prudent contracts, maybe shorter term, maybe less money. I also wonder at what point the players may start to side with management against their own union. Because, although it is in the union's best interest to guarantee salaries, limit performance bonuses, prevent renegotiation (etc.), the players themselves may find that it's actually more desirable to have an incentive-based contract, since -- for one thing -- it keeps their contract from being an albatross. Since such contracts are not allowed under the CBA, one way a player can make his contract performance-based by default is by making short term deals, one year deals, like Hossa did this year. And in an environment like this, with great economic uncertainty, I wouldn't be surprised to see more such deals in the next couple of years.

Quisp - but even is a buyout situation, the team still takes on a portion of the contract. (I thought it was 1/2 over double the years. I think you had it at 1/3 over twice the years.) This still leaves the team with having to sign another contract to replace the player bought out. Given the two cost, there is not a lot left added to cap space.

While I did not say apocalyptic, I do believe if the cap and floor do not come down over the next few years, we will lose some teams. I would hate to see the Kings go back to the travel schedule of 80's. The players were beat to crap by December and the only real game of the year was the first game after the all star break. Anyway, the Kings are in a great position with the new fiscal realities.

DuckHunter - please note that my post was on a thread 3 from the top, in the 137th slot, and under the heading "New Strength coach". I was not trying to upset you. My point was basically directed to Quisp as he has a tremendous understanding of business side of hockey. I wanted to provide tangible evidence to support my thoughts rather than just say "no big contracts". I realize the economy is a sensitive topic. I'm sorry if you have been negatively affected. Good luck

Jet,

I'm not upset at all. Sorry if I gave you that impression. I was actually serious about the vast knowledge and insight that goes on here. I find it interesting, informative and quite helpful. That's why I don't really like communicating through a screen, it dissolves so much character and personality of a individual....well at least mine. I'd much rather sit down with any of you cats and talk in person. To me there's nothing better than direct contact.

Now if we trade for Heatly and give up all those assets then I might be upset. I'm pretty sure DL has something brewing that all of us will be proud of. Get'm Deano!!

jet -

buyouts are 1/3 for players under 26 and 2/3 for older players, over twice the remaining length of contract, but yes, you're right, you would still have to sign someone to replace the bought-out player.

However:

Imagine that it's 9 years from now and revenues have tanked. The cap is at -- I'll pick a horrifying number -- $48MM. Tampa still has 3 years left of LeCavalier. They must get the $7.8MM cap hit off their books. They buy him out. The buy-out figure, and new cap figure, is 2/3 of 6.5MM (the remaining money due VL) over twice the remaining length of contract, six years. Cap hit = 725K. They've reduced their cap figure by $7 million. And he's old anyway. And the new crop of superstars -- who are in peewees as we speak -- will be getting smaller contracts, due to deflation. So it's a net positive for TB.

Duckhunter - thanks, I agree with you on the face to face interaction when discussing these issues. I still think the financial aspects of hockey will be critical over the next two years, but if I had to do again, I probably would have worded my comments differently.

Quisp - I think I may have misunderstood how the buy out works. I thought that the cap hit is a percentage of the annual cap hit for all of the remaining years. For example, if LeCavalier has three years remaining when bought out, then the cap hit would be (3 years * 6.5M)/ 6 years, or 3.25M/yr for 6 years. Do I not understand this correctly?

With all of this economic stimulation that the current administration is set on providing I think that the problem we’ll have to be worried about in the future is inflation, not deflation, because you can’t create money out of thin air and not expect there to be consequences, and the consequence of magically making money appear out of nowhere has historically been inflation. How that will effect the NHL, I’m not sure right now and really want to think about more pleasant things as the weekend starts, but I have to try to step back as a fan and try to remember that hockey is supposed to be fun. It’s only supposed to be a headache for the people who have to manage the cap.

Shit!

Since I last told you I was going to bed, heading for the swedish midsummers eve, you have poste like a 90 posts???? Man...

And this thread is still about the Kings strenghtening coach? Hell no...

We just have to wait and see what DL will do.. But he has anounced in his letter clearly that he will do SOMETHING, whatever that means..

I just came back from my mídsummers eve party. And I had a LOT of SHNAPS and HERRING, so I am pretty drunk.... *sigh* Whats up folks?

MacSwede, a happy midsummer's eve to you from us here in Southern California, where it's always midsummer here and we need no other reason to drink! It's been an interesting thread, hasn't it? Can't believe a new strength coach would garner so much attention, but I guess a lot of us are wondering, "Why this guy?"

Jet, re buy-outs:

You are correct that you are incorrect; but it's totally understandable, since the rules are complicated.

Here's how it works.

A team can opt to buy-out a player's contract by paying 2/3 of the salary remaining to be paid, spread out over twice the remaining contract period. It's 1/3 instead of 2/3 if the player is under 26.

Ex. 1 -- Cloutier

He signed a two-year deal with the Kings, 3.1MM per season. After one year, the Kings bought him out. $3.1MM left on the contract. 2/3 of that is $2.077MM. This payment is spread out over twice the length of the remaining contract. Thus, two times one year, or two years. So the $2.077 is divided by two, resulting in two years of a pay-out (and cap hit) of 1.033.

ex. 2 -- fictitious LeCavalier buy-out in 2018

Vinny has a cap hit of $7.8MM for the length of his contract. But in the last three years of his contract, he is paid $4MM, $1.5MM and $1MM respectively (even though the cap hit is the same every year). If TB buys him out at that point, they pay 2/3 of $6.5MM (note: $6.5MM is the sum of the salaries he gets the last three years of his contract, NOT the amount he gets each year), spread out over SIX years. That's $726K cap hit (and salary) per year for six years.

The key here is the fact that, in these looooong front-loaded contracts, there is a huge discrepancy in the last years of the contract between the cap hit and the salary: the cap hit stays the same throughout the contract by definition, while the actual salary paid out becomes tiny. I think Franzen's salary, or maybe it's Zetterberg's, or both, has them getting $1MM the last year of the deal. But their cap hit will still be as high as ever. Thus, the incentive for clubs to buy their way out of these contracts is huge.

Which I imagine is the whole point, if you're Ken Holland.

Quisp - very interesting, thanks for taking the time to explain it. In essence, the last two years of the Vinny contract can be thrown away. It is an interesting way to work the cap.

Deadcat - I understand what you are saying, but consider that normally when the Govt and Fed are trying to re inflate they have willing subjects. Where people who magically acquire this new "free money", are willing to spend it? Say, the treasury issues me a $100 check as part of a tax rebate stimulus program. I am usually 'willing', so I would go and buy a new TV. The salesman at the TV store takes his commission and buys some new wheels for his car. The owner of the tire shop then buys some new paint for the front of his shop. The owner of the paint store goes to Quisp to have his taxes done and Quisp buys some Kings tickets. That extra $100 in the economy has helped many people. But, now let's say I am "unwilling" and I save it (personal savings has gone from -ve to +5%) or pay down my credit cards to help rebuild my personal balance sheet. The money goes to the bank, but the bank can/will not lend the money out. That $100 has now been taken out of circulation. I agree with you that we will see commodity inflation (because of the weak $), but not on wage inflation for some time.

Quisp- the cap hit for contracts that have vairable amounts per year (like lecavalier's) is calculated on a year to year basis and it's a little more complicated as it not just the average of 2/3rds spread out over twice the remaining years. So Lecavalier's year to year cap hit in the example you gave is 4.5 mil, 7 mil, 7.5 mil, then 3 years at .715 mil (sorry if my numbers and math are a little off-i've got a little bit of a hang over).

it's on about page 206 in the CBA (i had to look it up to remember) and http://www.nhlscap.com/cap_faq.htm#buyouts has a breakdown and some examples down near the bottom of the page.

-J, re cap hit calculations:

Sonnovub****! You're right. You know, I had seen that bizarre formula before, but never really understood how it is different from simply calculating the buy-out amount. Now I can see: it's NOT different when the salary is the same every year. But when there is a difference... oh wait, I get it now! Okay, the wacky formula makes it so that the cap-hit is reduced only by the actual cash-savings for each year (savings meaning, the amount the club is saving by virtue of buying the player out).

So I have to take back at least part of what I said about the potential for mass buy-outs. With regard to the front-loaded long-term contracts (especially the ones with the teeny salaries in the waning years), the cap savings is real but not extraordinary.