Who's right in this fiasco?

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I was one of the wrestlers who went to the finals. Definitely hurt A LOT when we found out that we were disqualified. To be honest, we as a team didn't know who to blame and nine of our seniors lost their final chance at CIF except for our varsity 215 and HWT...

Yep... Definitely a big ouch...

YEP

Does this mean that the TC 215 is also disqualified from CIF?

Thanks for the insightful post, TC HWT... The reflections of your experience in this awful matter is invaluable.

It may be true that the league bylaws make no mention of what the exact response would be in this case (most bylaws aren't that exact), but, the RHL coaches did convene before the league championships, and an agreed-to time was set... You and your teammates are caught in a horrible scenario.

Again, I'm sorry that this has happened to you.

that was me by the way

Johnny has definitely been practicing because their Team CIF Duals Meet is going on right now and he has to wretle for his team. He will have had enough practice by CIF and I am still investigating the correct ruling procedures so that I know exactly what was suppsoed to happen and not a lot of hearsay. Now all I need is to get my hands on a coppy of the NFHS wrestling rule book...

This whole think stinks. So what happened to Johnny from Monrovia? Is he now slotted to compete in CIF? If so, he will be competing after having thought that his season was over and probably not preparing for competition. What in the world is going on within the RHL?

It's also very disappointing that I had gotten my hopes up after being told i could wrestle at CIF. I talked to the La Cañada head coach and the monrovia coach and both of them told me they would do everything in their power to make it so I could wrestle CIF. Apparantly saying to me was how La Cañada's coach rid himself of guilt, because he made no such efforts.

BigM

Five things to say,
1: Broca is definitely in the pool of people to blame here. He contantly threatened at practices that he would leave without people if they were late all season and never followed through. Had he followed through, we would have been on time.

2. As far as
"Their input as to whether a rule should be applied is not only wrong, but dangerous. Yes, coaches and players should have a say in the DEVELOPMENT of rules... but once they are made, the enforcement should be automatic and without prejudice."
I whole heartedly agree with you. The coaches should never be allowed to even consider altering the rules on the spot. However, there is no rule that applies to the Rio Hondo League or League Finals that corresponds to this issue. Let me repeat, there was no rule broken. The rule regarding the disqualification applies to CIF-run events. The La Canada coach decided though to bring that rule up when he saw us arrive at 7:23. The only thing that was in the Rio Hondo League rules and bylaws was that the coaches would convene to discuss a fitting punishment for a unnoted offense. Like I said earlier, the Monrovia coach had suggested that all TC wrestlers might be given last place seedings as punishment but wasn't successful in his attempt.

3: Temple City used to have a very strong wrestling program wih a well-liked coach in Tim Abeyta. After his very unfortunat dismissal, our team had two new coaches hired for us. Both of our coaches are under 5'5'' (though that is immaterial) and they also have bad eye problems regarding their vision. Heck, our female coach dosn't even know how to wrestle, she just ylls and screams what she deems is "encouragement" during practices. But more importantly, they are new to the league and were not very warmly accepted by the other coaches. I am not trying to cover my coaches or anythin for that matter, it is simple, they are just not very personable apparantly. So when the coaches convened for their voting, those coaches were voting to disqualify our coach whom they disliked, not our team.

4: Of the 14 weight classes, Temple City had 3 wrestlers with #1 seed and 4 wrestlers with #2 seed. That's half of the weight classes with a TC wrestler ranked top 2. As I suggested earlier, those votes weren't to decide a punishment for a late team, they were a way of eliminating the biggest threats with a nice cover-story.

5. My last and final statement is this, sports are suppsoed to be about the players and integrity and sportsmanship right? I guarantee you that the majority WRESTLERS from the Rio Hondo League wanted to let us wrestle at least. Every single Heavyweight and 215lb wrestler told me how much it sucks that the coaches decided to DQ us instad of lower our seeds and how much they wanted us to wrestle. Practically the entire Monrovia team was annoyed at the other coaches' decisions. I blame all of the coaches for killing my season, but I place more blame on the coaches who suggested complete disqualfication because the punishment was too severe for the crime. Their grudge against my coach and our team was the reason we were disqualified, they just needed a good excuse.

O, and F.Y.I. as far as us being 20 minuts late for the purpose of cutting weight to make wight, our coach does not allow wrestlers who dn't make weight before we go on the bus try and cut the weight. His policy is you cannot but weight on the day of a match. And furthermore, we had 2 wrestlers not make weight on our varsity squad; everyone else made weight just fine even on a questionable scale (which we were unable to contest because of our tardiness). Heck, I made weight by 52.8 pounds fully clothed. I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe TC will have better luck next year after after we get new coaches that the other league coaches might like, maybe not. Regardless, if I get into Stanford or Cal, my wrestling career is still over.

TC Heavyweight-

Wait, why? I thought things looked good for you because the MHS wrestler gave up his spot. Why can't you wrestle. It seems cruel to let you wrestle and then crush you're hopes again.

TC HWT...

I'm sorry for the way your season ended... What has happened is definitely unfair, but the only coach to blame is Coach Broca.

The rest of the coaches should never have been queried... Their input as to whether a rule should be applied is not only wrong, but dangerous. Yes, coaches and players should have a say in the DEVELOPMENT of rules... but once they are made, the enforcement should be automatic and without prejudice.

Coach Broca, hoping that the rest of the coaches and teams "would understand" why he broke the rules, chose to jeopardize your future... and "ruin your 4 years of work". Place the blame where it should be... on Broca's shoulders.

Where are the rest of the TC people? I can't believe that you are willing to ignore Broca's poor judgment and allow the rest of the RHL coaches to take the blame...

alas, it appears as if I will not wrestle at CIF. My coach talekd to me today and I turned my gear in. Thanks Rio Hondo League Coaches from La Cañada, South Pas, San Marino, and Salesian for making my senior season a memorable one. I hope someday some sort of guilt slaps you for ruining my 4 years of work. And to all those coaches out there for other sports, think of the players/wrestlers first so that nobody else has to have their hopes and dreams crushed.

just to clarify... it's Cherrick Thomas, not the incorrectly "Sharik Thomas" i wrote last night.. not the main focus here, but just some respect to Cherrick...

The MHS HWT also gave up his spot to one of heis senior teammates to wrestle 215. Johnny was the 3rd place 215 and got second out of two wrestlers at HWT. If he would have stayed in the 215 pound divsision it would be much different, but both 215 wrestlers got worked by Luthey and both got beat by the San Marino HWT. Big deal. Get over it. The issue is TC not being able to wrestle (which sucks) not the HWT giving up his spot to a very worthy competitor who will most surely do much better in CIF. Hats off to the MHS guy, but I do not feel that that is a huge issue.

Nobility... Johnny has is, but it should be used as a motivating force in his play in the CIF bracket. Who knows what would have happened at CIF? Not Johnny, or Cary, or Fred, or anyone. How many upsets do you report every year, Fred? You're picking an odd moment to suffer selective amnesia. Echoing NY, there are no guarantees in athletics... NONE!

Nobility... Coach Broca should exercise it by resigning and begging the forgiveness of his wrestlers. The DQ was NOT the RHL coaches decision... it was his when he decided to jeopardize the athletes that were on the bus on time that morning by waiting for a few slackers. Sack up, Coach... admit your failing and learn.

and Mr. Saxon...

There are many "wrongs" in this sad, sorted tale... no one is "right", and I don't believe there is a "right" decision.
...and as far as the tables turned, with Monrovia late and DQed... I'd be calling for the head of our coach for letting down our boys, and making a judgmental error that is sadly irrevocable. Gladly, Ed Avedissian has been a strong leader for our team and understands the ramifications of putting himself above his boys. I don't believe he would do that... after all, "It's all about the kids..."

One more thing, Fred. Your suggestion that Johnny would lose early reduces the sacrifice he made. Going out "early" is all relative anyway. A second-round exit might be an accomplishment to some wrestlers.

Gee Fred,

I suppose Rulon Gardner should not have gone into the finals against Alexander Karelin in the 2000 Sydney Games. I mean, Gardner had no chance of winning, right? Your acceptance that Johnny would not have done anything of note within the tournament sickens me.

So what. The TCHW was the favorite to win league, but that does not mean that second and third place would have been a forgone conclusion. It also does not mean that Cary (Karelin) would have won it all anyway.

All this said, I trust that Cary will represent the RHL well. That does not mean, though, that Johnny would not have as well.

Good luck to Cary. Good luck to the RHL commission in preventing this from happening again.

I can't wait for football season.

I agree with Big M on a lot of levels, but I disagree with his suggestion that Johnny is too young to understand that he will someday regret his decision to allow Cary Smith to wrestle. Johnny didn't give up a chance to win a CIF title or even advance that far in the tournament. But he knows that Smith does have a good chance and that Smith is a senior, and an innocent victim of a coaching error. If I was Johnny, I would feel much prouder about my gracious gesture than I would of going to CIF and losing in the early rounds. And over time, I don't think those feelings would change.

Maybe I can clear a couple issues up. I spoke to Johnny about giving up his spot to Cary Smith after Avedissian told me he had spoken to him about giving it up. Johnny was very gracious. He said if he was a senior and in a simalar spot, he would hope that someone would do the same for him. Unfortunately, his comments were edited out to shorten the length of the story (which happens all the time). I thought this was sportsmanship at its highest level. A kid opting to do the right thing, just because he knew it was the right thing to go, regardless of politics.
Also, it should be cleared up that Temple City wasn't late to the RHL meet because its bus was running late. The bus was at Temple City on time, but TC was waiting for one or two wrestlers to show before leaving.

Big M and New York -
Your concerns are well-articulated, regarding Monrovia's wrestler giving up his spot. And despite your potential disagreement, and despite the possibility that what I say may not trump the need to follow the rules, I would mention two things: One, I suspect there WAS an element of "competitive health" - of the divisional championships - involved in the decision (Big M you alluded to an understanding of that). And two, quite simply, I believe that this kind of graciousness has a place in high school sports. I understand that not everyone will agree.

Fred -
You nailed it in your "flip side" - the need to have things in black and white in such a way that groups of participating parties don't have to make decisions. I know that's what the coaches were trying to have in place; the league can make it clearer.

To chime in on this... my mom is an instructional aide at MHS. She helps in various classes and knows many athletes, Shawn Saprks and Sharik Thomas to name a few, and so yes, there is a "Mrs. Saxon" at MHS. And from what I've heard, the Monrovia coach was the other vote of the losing side and it was both the coach and johnny's decisison to let Cary advance. I agree with New York, TC shouldn't have been late, and the coaches should have just let them play. But, alas, that didn't happen and talking about who is wrong and who is right and what should have been done isn't going to change anything that has already happened. Johnny made an brave and courageous decisison to let a member from a rival school take his spot in CIF, and how good do you think he's going to feel if Cary does really well in CIF? And again BigMlover, is there really a "right" decision? And Johnny should be proud, he did a noble thing, a thing a lot of people on this blog wouldn't have done i presume.
And finally, i leave you with this: Had it been the other way around, and Monrovia was late, how different would the posts on this blog be?

I am sorry, I incorrectly called her a teacher. She is an aide I believe for RSP, but I didn't want to say that because it wasn't really necessary and it's probably not something johnny would have wanted said.

BTW - There is no "Mrs. Saxon" at MHS...

NY is right... If Coach Avedissian DID NOT persuade his wrestler to give up his spot... then obviously, he has done NOTHING wrong.

If this is the case, then FRED needs to make his revision public.

TC HWT...

Just because Johnny is proud of what he has done, doesn't mean that he has done the right thing. I don't expect you to understand this... you're only 18 yrs. old. One day, you'll look back on this and understand that Johnny shouldn't have to pay for the mistake your coach made... I'm sure he'll realize that as well.

If the decision was entirely that of the MHS wrestler, then Fred's article needs to be revised. It should not read that the coach talked his player into doing that. Because the way it reads now, the coach is open for too much blame or too much credit for nobility, depending on the reader's point of view.

I understand that many of you disagree with Avedissian's actions, but I will say this. One of johnny's teachers at Monrovia High is my best friend's mother (aka TC QB Riley Saxon's mom). Johnny was not disappointed to have given up his spot, he was very proud of what he had done. On Tuesday at school, Johnny asked Mrs. Saxon "Did Cary tell you what I did for him?" We are not just rival wrestlers, we chat at competitions and I spent an hour chatting with him on Saturday. The final decision was his and he made it as a friend of mine first, a wrestler second.

Sadly, TC's wrestlers must be DQed. They missed the weigh-in... which was mutually agreed to by the league coaches... including the coaches from Temple City. For those unfamiliar with wrestling, weigh-ins are not a mere formality, but an integral part of the sport. As Fred pointed out, TC did have wrestlers not make weight... and the ones that did gained an unfair advantage by being late... It's a shame for the kids, but they can't be given an advantage.

As far as the Coach Avedissian's decision to persuade his HWT from competing... I'm dumbfounded...
Yes, the TC HWT is a good wrestler...
Yes, the Monrovia HWT would have been a decided underdog...
Yes, the TC HWT may be a more competitive representative for the Rio Hondo in the CIF meet.

But...
There is no guarantee that the Monrovia kid would finish out of a CIF place. It is not all that infrequent for "miracles" to happen in the gym... a decided underdog rising up to slay a beast... or was I the only one in the La Canada gym when the Cats BB team ended the Spartans league run?
With all due respect Mr. Cary Smith, your record is no guarantee to what would have happened at the meet... or what will happen at CIF. We've all seen favorites fall. (But, I am rooting for you as you represent the RHL at CIF)
As pointed out in earlier posts, the Jr. HWT from Monrovia is not guaranteed anything next season... Life has a funny way of taking you to the mat when you least expect it.

Coach Bell... please champion an effort that will take rule execution... or the acceptance of rule violation... out of the hands of the coaches. Rules are set and rules must be kept... regardless of whether a group decides that they are unfair or unjust. And Coach Avedissian should be reprimanded for the negligence he displayed in demoting the very players he's charged to support. His place is not to support the wrestler from TC... nor should he feel any guilt for any injustices due to the incompetence of the TC coach. If I was the parent of the Monrovia HWT, I would be livid.

I hope Mike Mooney, the TC AD, has taken appropriate action against his wrestling coach... this whole affair is an embarrassment.

Too bad, really too bad. And the "responsible" person was the adult. The coaches had a chance to weigh in (mentally this time) and chose to enforce "a rule's a rule." Didn't Yogi Berra say it..."90% of life is showing up" (on time I might add).

There's two sides to consider.
After talking to several wrestling coaches, weigh-in times are extremely important to the integrity of wrestlers. As I understand it, Temple City had a couple wrestlers not make weight. Who's to say that a couple more weren't shedding pounds with an extra half hour. Nobody is accusing them of this, but this is why wrestling coaches are so serious about weigh-in times.
At the very least, a call from the Temple City coaching staff should have been made to inform the other coaches they were running late, and to give a reason. If they were late because of a few late arrivals, then leave the tardy wrestlers at the school and get the wrestlers who were on time to the weigh-in.
The rules don't always seem fair, but in CIF, if you're late for a weigh-in, you're defaulted automatically. Everyone in wrestling knows this.
THE FLIP SIDE
The problem I have with the RHL coaches voting to forfeit an entire team is that they shouldn't have the power to do it. It raises integrity and ethical issues. Is there a personal agenda? Is there bad blood? Is a coach voting to give one of his wrestlers a better chance of moving on? Or is he voting a team out because he believes it's the right thing to do?
There needs to be a rule spelled out in the league constitution that states wrestlers will be disqualified if they're not at the weigh-ins at a particular time. That way the rules are black and white, and coaches and wrestlers have nobody but themselves to blame for being late. Furthermore, you wouldn't have coaches put in the uncomfortable positition of making a decision that could be perceived as bias or unethical.

As a Monrovia alumnus, I am shocked by a couple things: 1) That the RHL would DQ an entire team for showing up half an hour late. Coach Bell mentioned the possibility of using extra minutes to shed weight...that may be true. But let's look at it the other way as well. Those wrestlers who weighed in on-time had the opportunity to re-hydrate themselves 30 minutes longer than those TC wrestlers would have had. I don't think there was an advantage. TC's wrestlers are mostly minors. Cut them a break. I'm sure nobody who placed that day wanted an asterisk next to their record. 2) It irritates me that Monrovia's coach convinced his wrestler not to compete in CIF. Hey coach, there is no tomorrow. Just because one kid is a junior and the other a senior does not make one more or less deserving. Heck, usually third place means that the wrestler won his last match of the day, likely after recovering from a loss earlier. TC's kid got cheated out of league competition, and now the Monrovia kid gets cheated out of CIF competition. There is no guarantee about next year. Furthermore, if the MHS guy does make CIF next year, he will lack the CIF experience that his opponents will have.

This whole mess would have been settled if: 1) TC had shown up on time. 2) The other coaches would have manned up and not have voted to end TC's season early. Frankly, it sounds like TC's coach is flaky and that 4 out of 6 coaches voted against him without any regard to his wrestlers.

and it is very unfortunate that Coach Abeyta cannot come back and coach at our school just because one of his assistant coaches undermined him and took students off-campus during school and went to parties with wrestlers. Coach Abeyta should have been asked to return, but because of an idiotic assistant coach, he was not. I miss having him as my coach.

Coach Abeyta surely wouldn't have let us be late, and as far as the Monrovia heavyweight disqualifying himself so that I could take his spot, I thank him for that, but not to be overlooked, I am 18-2 on the season. My first loss was to #4 heavyweight in the state Anthony Gonzalez of Rosemead and my second loss was to the Santa Ana heavyweightat the West Coast Classic in the Semi Final round. I have pinned every wrestler I have faced this season besides those two, including all of the heavyweights in my league. I think that for him to default out for me was both a very nice thing to do and I will prove my worth by going as far as I can in the CIF-SS meet.

You know the problem I have with this story Fred is that one individual is squarely responsible for this entire situation and that's TC coach Eric Broca. And yet, unless it was cut out of the story, Broca never takes any responsibility for his actions.

Worse, the coach throws the blame on the rest of the responsible coaches around league and calls their decision terrible. What's terrible is that if there was any doubt, why didn't Broca call any of the coaches or Bell to clarify the starting time. This is the biggest wrestling event of the year for the majority of wrestlers on the team- why not show up an hour early, a half hour early? Broca needs to be stand up about this and not blame others.

Furthermore, I have to disagree with coach Avedissian's decision to persuade Becerra to default his position. Just because Becerra is a junior, doesn't mean he's guareented a spot in next year's RHL Finals. What if he get's hurt, what if this was his only shot? I understand the nobility behind the decision but don't understand the flip-flop. If you're going to hold a vote to disqualify Temple City then why go backwards and ask your kid to default. Avedissian's first responsibility is to his own kids.

Let me ask the TC wrestling faithful this one question- Would former coach Tim Abyeta have made the same mistake as Broca?

Thanks so much for looking into this further for me Fred. I really appreciate it, and it appears luck was on my side, so thank you, and I look forward to representing Temple City at Feb 17ths CIF Finals.

"Who's right" is a brutal question, when student-athletes miss out. Presumably the RHL will take whatever steps are necessary to avoid such a situation in the future.
Ouch.