CIF softball rankings released; updated with Star-News rankings

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Again, I have absolutely no affiliation with South Pasadena or their softball team, and I have really no purpose in supporting their team other than to add some unbiased clarity to this discussion.

The suggestion that the South Pasadena softball schedule thus far is anything less than highly competitive and that they have played their non-league games against anything but the very high level and skilled teams is simply wrong and is made by the uninformed. The teams with which they’ve competed thus far are excellent high level teams with very good pitchers. The same could be said for Monrovia. Congratulations to those two coaches for challenging their teams with such competition and congratulations ladies for competing so successfully. Next Wed. should be fun, and that’s what it’s all about!

Also, kudos to the South Pasadena, Alverno, and Sacred Heart coaches (just 3 I’ve noted, there are probably others) for putting their egos aside and not always pitching their “Aces” during these early season non-league games and giving other kids the opportunity to pitch and develop. That’s also what it’s all about! Thank you for not succumbing to the lure of padding meaningless statistics (which are typically grossly misstated or selectively omitted on Maxpreps anyway). That’s why they are ignored by college and travel recruiting coaches.

Also, the suggestion that high run totals in a game is an indicator of a good team is made by the unexposed. To be a high level team and to compete with other high level teams, it all starts with a great pitcher. A great pitcher almost always dominates great hitters. That is why the scores between two great softball teams are almost always very, very low scoring affairs. The thing is it takes just one single mistake pitch to score a run. That is the pitch the great hitters are looking for against the great pitcher. The informed and exposed understand what defines a great pitcher is:

• they keep their pitch counts to less than 12 to 15 pitches an inning,
• they almost always stay ahead of the batter in their counts (i.e., 0-2, 1-2), and
• they seldom, if ever, walk a batter

Great pitchers have a multiple of pitches and they possess the ability with all of their pitches to:

• command the strike zone,
• hit specific location (i.e., contol) at will, and
• have a range of speed up to at least the very high 50’s (60’s is even better)

It should be noted that speed without the consistent ability to command and locate is useless. My observation is that there are 5 of these pitchers along the 25 mile 210 corridor around Pasadena. If a kid is aspiring to be a great pitcher, this is the formula. Bottom line, high run totals in a game are more attributable to substandard pitching than an indicator of great hitting or a great team. Likewise, low run totals in a game are more attributable to great pitching and not an indicator of poor hitting or a poor team.

One last statement, “rankings – schmankings” … who cares. They are meaningless!!! They are seldom accurate and they typically only serve to falsely and temporarily satisfy egos. That’s why the kids play the games and league play and CIF will accurately determine the rankings. Good luck ladies … I can’t wait to see!

No just typical.

Anonymous:
Are you saying Fred is 'absurd' for moving So.Pas softball to #7 in the area?

First of all, If you look a little more closely you will see that Parada has not given up a single run earned or unearned, and she came into every game against all of the teams. Also you should look closely and see what you consider a weak team. If you consider D1 Brea Olinda a weak team, you do not know softball. They played only top D1-D3, Orange County teams. South Pasadena and Segerstrom were the only two D4 teams in the tournament, and Segerstrom had an excellent pitcher. Throughout the tournament South Pasadena had very few errors except in the game against Laguna Hills when players kept trying to do too much against a team that was killing the ball. But when Parada came in all of the plays were made and there were only a couple of small hits. Take a look at the levels of the teams the other Rio Hondo teams have played and you will see that those teams are not as strong. To call any of the teams that South Pasadena played weak is absurd. Even if those teams lost a few you have to look at who they are playing, and if you have no knowledge on those teams you should probably stay out of it. For instance Brea Olinda beat Sunny Hills who is ranked third in CIF D3. Monrovia and Temple City are still going to have their fare share of tough opponents and are very good teams, there is no doubt but give teams credit for playing tough teams when credit is due. For instance Temple City will be playing a great La Serna tonight followed by some other guaranteed tough teams in the Arroyo tournament. It is unlikely that the bottom of their orders do very well against these teams. South Pasadena will be playing in the Savannah tournament versus teams like Sunny Hills, Long Beach Poly, and San Clemente. The weakest teams in this tournament are a step above the strongest teams in the Duarte tournament. If you looked at stats and winning percentage you would think that La Canada is the best team in the league, but apparently they have not input their statistics from thheir only losing effeort to the one decent team they have played, so how can we tell?

I have to question ranking SP so high. There's no doubt that their battery is all-league. But softball is a team sport - the other club players (and talented non-club players) from around the league will hit the ball - you need gloves to defend and you need bats to score. As far as I can tell from Maxpreps, SP has beaten two weak teams, played a strong team close and been crushed by a strong team. The glaring reality is that the team has only 7 hits in four games from players other than the top two. By comparison, Monrovia has 28 hits from 6 other players (granted they have played one more game) and TC has 26 hits from 7 other players. Can a two-player team really be the third best in the area?

Still looking for LC vs OC stats on Maxpreps.

I think that age can be a factor in the ability of a team to be successful in high school ball, but I think it is more important what the kids are doing while they aren't playing high school ball. If you have a group of older kids who haven't picked up a glove since their last high school game, I don't believe that you can put them over a group of freshmen and sophomores that have played ball throughout the off season with reasonable quality coaches. And I think that equation applies pretty much across the board, the amount of off season work along with natural ability out weighs the age factor everytime. However if you have older leadership who brings an attitude from the offseason that promotes a sense of hard work and focus, that is where age can really have an impact but it has to be combined with hard work, knowledge of the game, and the willingness to positively influence the younger players. Hopefully your young team has a wise enough coach where he puts the emphasis on working hard in practice and developing solid fundementals as opposed to focusing on wins and losses in the games. You cannot win without working hard and developing solid fundementals.

To replace impression with fact, player age or physical size had little to do with player or team performance at the Duarte Tournament. One simple example, the match-up that would have been nice to see was Ontario Christian's "freshman" pitcher Lexi Thomas vs. Flintridge Sacred Heart's "sophomore" pitcher Jessica Ferri. Both were clearly the 2 most dominant pitchers, and thus, the 2 most dominant teams. Not just at the Duarte Tournament, but it applies throughout high school and travel ball softball play, high level playing experience is the true indicator of skill to a much greater extent, as compared to age or size.

Sbfan,
Does age not matter? - the fact a team with mostly freshmen and sophmores last year that played should be much better this year or is softball different than every other HS sport. There are a couple of teams that got knock around in the Duarte tourney made up mostly of freshmen and sophmores (14-15 YOs)that should be much better next - because the team they were playing looked huge (16-18 Y-Os)in comparison.

I’ll attempt to offer some clarity by offering an unbiased opinion. My daughter does not play for a team in the Rio Hondo League, nor do I coach in the Rio Hondo League. However, I do have a reasonable knowledge of many of the players and teams in the RHL. I’d also like to offer some travel ball insight.

The reality is that softball is a pitching dominated sport. A great pitcher can make a “so-so” team look great. However, a good team with 8 good players, without a good pitcher, will struggle.

Also, in softball, a coach can make a significant difference, because strategy is such a critical part of the game. A good softball coach can “level the field” for that “so-so” team. Likewise, a bad softball coach can make a great team look very bad.

South Pasadena is my bet for RHL dominance this season for these two reasons: 1st – a great pitcher in Nichole Parada, 2nd – a very good coach in Mike Williams. On top of that, Parada’s catcher, Cassie Gogreve is the best around and beyond her skills as a catcher, she knows how to support her pitcher better than any catcher I’ve seen and as a catcher she is a true field leader to her teammates.

Monrovia is always very strong and they and South Pasadena will be the primary match-up in the RHL. Monrovia has a good pitcher in Brittany Bateson and she is supported by great players like Krissy Mihm and Katie McWhirter. To top it all off, they are a very well coached team.

Temple City will provide competition in the RHL. Their pitching will be very challenged by the stronger teams. However, they have some very good field players and hitters: Ronnie Grant, Alex Aguirre, Kaitlin Ellingsworth. Temple City also has an excellent coach in Bob Ellingsworth.

Although both San Marino and La Cañada will be improved this season, they are both still not at the same level as South Pasadena, Monrovia, and Temple City. Anyone who knows the competition, especially at this early stage of the season, recognizes that pre-league play can be a very misleading indicator of team strength. At the Duarte Tournament in particular, there is a real mix of teams. Also, they have a very odd way of determining team ranking which never seems to pit the best teams against each other. A more appropriate and far more interesting match-up in the championship game would have been Flintridge Sacred Heart vs. Ontario Christian. You have to applaud teams like South Pasadena and Monrovia for playing such a challenging non-league schedule. However, is there really any harm in La Cañada and San Marino playing in some less challenging games? For those who it really matters to, league play followed by CIF will settle all of this discussion. For now lets let the kids play ball, and gloat in their successes, and work to improve upon their non-successes.

As mentioned, La Cañada will be improved this season with pretty much the same talent as last season. The challenges were not due to a lack of talent but had more to do with player attitude and an understanding amongst the players themselves of what it takes to maximize their talent. I strongly disagree with both of the two opposite points-of-view on travel ball from the previous bloggers. First, the biggest reason for La Cañada’s improvement should be firmly attributable to Jim M. and his So Cal Ringers travel team. I have absolutely no affiliation or involvement with this team, however, I do have a good awareness of this team. Yes, it is true, this is a new team, but it was not established with the idea of creating an 18U-Gold travel team. It was established to provide a venue for La Cañada kids to “put their toe in the water” with respect to travel ball and to broaden their perspective (and dare I say parents’ perspectives too). Jim M. has done a great job with the So Cal Ringers and the La Cañada High School team will benefit. Another travel team should not be viewed as a “watering down”, but be more viewed as another good opportunity for the kids to play ball and take their game to the another level. As for the other opposite point-of-view, to criticize travel ball, especially the 18U-Gold level, is simply pure ignorance. Sure, you will occasionally find bad coaches and obnoxious parents, however, that is far more the exception and seldom the rule. In fact, you see fewer “bad apples” than you do at the rec. ball level. Especially if you take time to see a travel ball game at the true 18U-Gold level. I promise you, you’d be amazed if you went to see a team like Gary Haning’s Batbusters, or Tony Rico’s Firecrakers, or Ron DePompa’s Sliderz. The player’s on these teams are very well coached and they are talented athletes who have committed and come through the ranks (and some of them are in the RHL), and these teams have made them better not only as athletes but also have supported their personal development in immeasurable ways. Travel ball isn’t for everyone, but don’t begrudge those who play in it and certainly don’t minimize their skill.

Does anyone know the scores of games played today?

Wow, calm down fellas. You must be the type A personalities he was talking about. I am sorry to hear about the injury. I hope she recovers quickly. By the way, I am a fan of the Rio Hondo League and I have not been impressed with the lack of sportsmanship that La Canada fans show, and you are a perfect example. What is your point about softball's complexities. I did not exclude other sports from suffering from the inadaquacies of local rec coaching, I just figured since this was a softball page I would talk about softball. I should also say that softball has no where near the physical burn-out factor that Football(multiple risks), Volleyball(knee and ankle damage,), and Baseball(pitching rotator cuff and elbow), but the mental and emotional aspect is huge, that is why quality coaching is so important. You must be one of the local rec coaches, if you take offense to that. You should go watch an ASA Gold tournament and see the differences between what you are used to watching and how they play the game. Now that you voiced your opinions I hope that the kids from La Canada softball continue to get coached by you and others like you. That will guarantee their stay in softball mediocrity for a few more years.

sbfan,
Your right softball is much more complicated and faster than those slow sports like football and basketball and volleyball and even baseball. How can any human understand the complexities and speed of softball.

sbfan,
What an honor for lowly La Canada to be in the same league as mightly South Pasadena - and all your girls who have nothing else to do but play softball year round. Perhaps Girls softball will be the one sport where you actually do better than La Canada in this year (and probably will because LC lost its pitcher in OC game which you forgot to mention) - it certainly wasn't football or basketball.

Seriously, how come La Canada softball hasn't posted their latest stats from the Orange Christian game on Max preps? It doesn't seem right to not post stats for a losing effort when you were so quick to put up the stats for the games where you beat weak opponents. Are you only going to post the games you like?

In softball, the pitching motion allows kids to pitch more often and more safely than baseball. Kids can pitch everyday without injuring the rotator cuff. The danger of burnout is emotionally and from over work, but as long as the kid determines how much she wants to work then burn out shouldn't be a factor. Most Gold teams practice once per week (hard) and the kids are responsible for their own workouts after that. If parents are determining the work schedule burn out is more likely. As far as insane parents deserving a TV show, I see that more in High School sports and low level travel ball that parents and hs teams are using for the sole purpose of getting good enough to play high school ball. That is where parents really become desperate. If you go watch games at the gold level you won't see a lot of insanity. You will see mostly tired parents that have sacrificed their lives for the sake of their kids. Very little obsession. The problem with softball on the rec ball level is that there are very few coaches who know what they are talking about and softball is such a quick game that has so many subtle techniqus that if you aren't trained properly you will never have those skills. My guess he went to a low level tournament where the kids skills are more in question and the parents are a little crazier. He should should film the La Canada parents at a softball game and do a sequel.

The greatest think about club/travel teams in sports is that the coaching is far superior to what is found in most High Schools. Yes, I am talking about the top clubs that have solid organizations and not the "let's put a team together and travel" type. In alot of ways this level of play has made High School volleyball, soccer, softball and basketball teams irrelevant.

sbfan,
my buddy said it was great - he said it was the the best reality show because ot the type A parents and coaches - I didnt see it. The sad truth is (and i really dont have the facts for softball and pitching is so important and an unnatural motion in that sport so I am not sure it applys here - but in men's sports and girls volleyball and basketball) you can's make a professional athelete. You can develop a an athlete with innate skills to become a professional - but a kid who does not have them can not create them. That unfortunately a lot of parents really dont get - and kids develop at different levels and little johnny who can hit home runs or pitches the no- hitter in little league and pony may have be hit his highest career achievement. Two kids on my HS football team and two kids on my HS baseball team who made it to the pros - only one played organized youth ball and the two best pitchers in the area from little league and pony (who played year round baseballl as youths) burnt their arms out and didn't even play their senior year. Why do you think the NFL and MLB have so many players fromm colleges and (also HS for baseball) you have never heard of.

You kind of make my point for me. Real Travel Ball is for kids that are willing to work harder than others and probably do look crazy to other kids. There are really very few kids who want this and love this. Those are the kids, in any sport, who end up playing DI ball in college.(I suppose you think that college ball is a bad thing too.) The rest have heard that they must play travel to keep up so their parent or their Little League coach start a team and they inject travel tounaments with mediocre play. Believe me the kids who play real club ball love it and some play other sports in the off time as well. If you watch UCLA play softball or the college world series, there is not a single kid on any of those teams that did not play club ball, and the majority of them with 18U gold teams that are coached by very sane coaches and have very sane parents.I can very much understand someone who would want to abolish it, because they would love for their kids to be able to compete on the level as these kids and not have to work so hard. By the way that must of been one hell of a TV show.

Agree. I have a friend who did a reality show based on a softball travel team - he said it made the surreal life look normal. Didn't get picked up because the parents and coaches realized how insane they looked and got an injunction against the show.

Honestly they should abolish travel teams and have the kids play other sport in the off season. The parents and coaches of those team are mostly nuts and the kids get burnt out.

sbfan,
I think the Ringers are the reason the team has started so strong. LC doesn't have club team and with 8 of the LC players playing - it sort of is the LC summer league team. Thank you Jim M and others for getting that team goin and helping turn around LC.

To the post from Jim M. on 3/7:

Jim,

Although I am sure that the So Cal Ringers are a very good organization, I hope that you realize that they are playing no where near the level of ball that other kids in the RHL are playing with their summer teams. As far as I know, the Rio Hondo League this year has three teams that have players actively playing in the ASA 18U Gold level, which is the highest level of club softball, where 90-100% of all DI softball players are recuited from. (Three of these players have signed their DI letters of Intent.) These teams are Monrovia, South Pasadena, and Temple City. And only two players from two of those teams, as far as I know, were on teams that qualified for the ASA 18U Gold National Championship. Those players were Krissy Mihm and Cassie Gogreve from Monrovia and South Pasadena. (If I am leaving someone out please let me know) Cassie Gogreve's current team is the current 18U Gold National Champions the OC Batbusters. This is the level where the coaches are truly "the best in the business." These players who week in and week out, year after year, have played at that level are naturally going to bring to the table that experience and hopefully spread some of that confidence to their teammates. Unfortunately, small community teams that call themselves travel ball teams, but are really just, in large part,their Little League team attempting to stay together, have watered the concept of what real travel ball teams are. Which is another level of ball where kids work harder than most in order to achieve on an elite level. (Not to mention these kids are getting the same coaching they've gotten their whole lives and are not being exposed to great new coaches.)The sacrifice and the payoff are much greater on this level and I believe that it will show in this upcoming season and for these kids college careers like it did last year.

To the anonymous post on 3-9: When you say LC, do you mean Flintridge Sacred Heart? La Canada did not even play Alverno, unless it was in a scrimmage. FSH is the team who "took care" of Alverno, but I would hardly say they "really took care of them." It was a 3-4 game between two good teams with excellent pitchers. Jessica Ferri and Michelle Escamilla.

I can't wait to see the statistics on the La Canada softball loss against Ontario Christian (19-4). It should balance out the inflated statistics that they have put on Maxpreps up to now. (Hint: if there is an error made on the play it is not considered a hit.) It also appears as though they got most of their hits after Ontario Christian put their second pitcher in. It will be fun to see how the RHL will balance out when everybody is playing top level opponents like Monrovia and South Pasadena. The Duarte Tournament seems to be very weak with teams like Gladstone, San Gabriel, Whittier,and RHP among others. The only two decent teams in that group were Sacred Heart and Ontario Christian. La Canada had the easiest draw imaginable and found themselves overmatched in the championship game. It is bold for teams to play higher level teams prior to league and not try and inflate their winning percentages and statistics by playing teams that are relatively weak. South Pasadena went to the Brea Olinda Tournament and played some of the top Division I&II teams in the city and finished 6th out of sixteen and Monrovia played some very stiff competition in the Upland Tournament and did not lose. In Temple City's defense, Bob Ellingsworth will be taking them to the very difficult Arroyo Tournament where they will be starting out against the Bea Olinda Champions, La Serna. I hope that the Star News doesn't get fooled by the early season statistics of teams that really aren't playing any strong teams. That would be the same mistake that they made last year when they put San Marino on top after beating a bunch of weak teams early and then ended up winning only three league games. Monrovia is clearly the team to beat and South Pasadena is a very close second and they are likely to again battle for the championship in league play. The pitching and catching "battery" goes long way in softball.

Lc really too care of Alverno - LC should be in the top 5

Pasadenapreps.com,
A little too early to call, I haven't seen enough of the other league teams - Poly lost their first game that they should have won in the last inning 7-8, lost to a good La Salle team, had to forfiet due academic conflict (tests)with 7 of the players (they take school very seriously over there) and beat Gladstone of Covina 21-1, the JV team beat Marshall 17-0 in 5 innings. Most of the Jv players also are on the varsity. My guess is Poly will win the Prep League - but it isn't going to be as easy as last year and with the youth - no seniors, one jr and the rest sophmores and freshmen (including akk three pitchers who show excellent promise) and a great coach they will have a few struggles - but will ultimately win league.

those rankings are incorrect...La Salle has moved up two divisions since last year and now compete in Division IV

Don't look now, but the La Canada Spartans (who only won two games last year) are in the Finals Friday night against Ontario Christian. For the Spartans to get to the Finals of this tournamet is a big improvement over the 2006 season.

Congrats.

Jim M.

orangeandblue....what does the Prep League look like this year? Who will challenge Poly for the title?

I see Poly has fallen out of the Top 10 - sort of expected - it is an incredibly young team - it will be a little rough for them until league - but it looks like they are setting up nicely with all starters being freshmen and sophmores with one junior for the future - just like LC struggled last year and lookd strong this year. And the all the pitchers are sophmores and freshmen.

Jim M is right about assist coach Gunter - he is great guy and coach.

La Canada Softball

You must remember that 8 of the 9 La Canada starting Varsity softball team played for the So Cal Ringers this past off season and they are much improved. Are the ready to compete with the elite teams? Time will tell, but the might catch some teams by suprise.

LC 7 - Alverno 0
LC 10 - Rio Hondo Prep 0
LC 9 - Azusa 3

So far so good.

Plus they have one of the best in the business as an assistant coach in Chuck Gunter. Chuck is a terrific find for La Canada and Chuck led the La Canada J.V. team to the league championship last year.

Good luck to all the teams this year as softball is becoming one of the greatest sports to watch in high school.

Jim M.

I don't see why La Salle is rated so high, they don't have any pitching like years before

Fred
You forgot to mention that these are pre-season polls.
The San Dimas tourney will provide a more accurate prediction.

Thanks Fred.

Apaches are No. 7 in Div. III.

Where's Power-House Arcadia on the rankings?