SB Now

C'mon, the kid was a gang member and would have thought nothing of killing you or anyone else. The fact he is dead will ensure he isn't out committing crime. Who knows, he may have killed already!

Thanks for responding, SB Watcher.

Why do you suggest that this 15-year-old (dead) boy was a killer? There is no indication that that is the case. There is no indication that he was carrying a weapon when he was slain.

He was a student and member of the Pacific High School football team.

I think you should not suggest that it was a desirable thing that a child was killed when all you know is that police are calling the child a gang member. Think about that a moment. I think you're a better person than that.

Please respond again.

Robert Rogers

Mr. Rogers, what evidence do you have to prove that he is not a gang member? I guess the best source of information as to the status of the deceased gang member would come from the Police.

As for whether he had a criminal history, I believe the police can identify "criminal history", the law just prevents them from releasing the specifics of their crimes. As to his gang status, there is no law prohibiting the police from releasing this information.

You're grasping for straws once again, trying to stir the community up.

Your social barometer is in need of a serious adjustment! There are two options for these young violent gang members...one is the penal system, and the other is the graveyard. It will occur again in this case...one is dead, and the other will be arrested when he is found. It's a sad state of affairs, but it is reality!

In order to see the true story behind your story, I read today's edition of the Press Enterprise, and read the dead gang member's mom's statement to the reporter. The story appeared to be quite comprehensive, and even the kid's mom laid out his criminal behavior. She said that he was on felony juvenile probation for an assault, and added that he was placed in a group home.

Stand up juvenile citizens don't earn a placement in a group home for playing football and having straight A's in school...they usually earn that by committing a FELONY CRIME.

And while on the subject of football...how does that by itself make somebody a good person? Uh...let's see, Michael Vick, Pacman Jones, Rae Carruth, heck I'll even throw in OJ Simpson!

I find it funny that you now have to resort to searching the Press Enterprise to develop a story for your newspaper and/or blog...kudos to you on another outstanding report "Media Watchdog"! You showed them!

Scott Appleton, thanks for responding.

I do disagree with you generally, and I will point out the instances in which you mischaracterized my statements.

1) I have never said the boy was not a gang member. The police say he was; he probably was.

2) As for the "criminal history," I have only pointed out, and continue to do so, that the police were inconsistent and simply wrong to divulge that information. His criminal record as a juvenile is not a public record unless he is charged with a crime as an adult. The police know that, yet still chose to publicize that he had some sort of "criminal history," leaving open the debate of what that actually means. Predictably, people such as yourself choose to presume that the "history" is very serious and violent.

3) As for there being only "2 options" for boys who have been in trouble, the penal system or the graveyard, as you say, that is the kind of callousness that precludes more effective, compassionate measures from being taken in the interests of far too many young and talented people. To imply that a 15-year-old is beyond redemption is a sad outlook indeed.

4) The boy's mother indeed told the PE that he was on probation for felony assault. What does that mean, exactly? I don't know. It could mean he got into a fight with another boy. I got into fights with other boys when I was a kid. I suppose I could have been arrested. My point is that fact alone tells us very little.

5) I don't know what kind of grades the boy got, and never said I did. He was enrolled in school and on the football team, which in and of itself detracts from the felon/gangmember/villain characature.

6) Playing football doesn't make you a good person. I never made such a simplistic assessment.

Lastly, I take it that you dislike my work, style, personality, etc. That's fine. I'm not professing to be the guy getting to the heart of this story. I'm merely pointing out the duplicity at work in way the police and media initially handled this boy's murder. This dogpile on the victim mentality, from alluding vaguely to his juvenile "criminal history" to pointing out that the kid was a discipline problem in 7th grade for goodness sakes, is a little disturbing.
I am a watchdog, just as you and my other readers/writers are. My analysis prompted the PE to change their Web site Monday and I hope will give police brass pause before they suggest without proof or further disclosure that a murdered child has a "criminal history."

Robert Rogers

Point, counter point Mr.Rogers.

I believe the Police are right in informing the public that the victm had a "criminal history" and was a gang member. To the parents who are raising kids in the community this information is somewhat valuable.

I think it also shows that there were underlying circumstances that led to his early retirement from his gangster lifestyle.

Gang members can be involved in football, and other sports...just look at the NBA, NFL, etc... There are gang members in the military, music industry, television and movies, as wll as other organiztions within the community. Does that make them any less of a gang member? No.

As for the two options gang members have, lets take a look at that one...drug dealing and gang banging are inherintly two of the most dangerous jobs for gang members. They choose to put themselves in certain situations that lead to violence. It is important to let the public know that this wasn't a random act of violence that took the life of an innocent juvenile, like we saw in the Mynisha Crenshaw case. I take it, judging from your response to my earlier posting that the Police "mischaracterized" the now convicted gang members responsible for that case also...

Which leads me to reiterate my earlier comment. Two choices: DEATH or INCARCERATION...the gang members who participated in the death of the INNOCENT Mynisha Crenshaw, who had NO criminal history, nor was she a member of a GANG, will now spend the rest of their lives in PRISON for the failed attempt to avenge the death of another gang member who died in a hail of bullets fired indiscriminately in an apartment complex during a gangster shoot-out. Hmmmm...one gang member dead...oters going to the Penal System...

James Bagsby (a juvenile gang member with a "significant criminal history", as published by your newspaper) who murdered a NON gang member juvenile with NO criminal history as the juvenile and his brother played basketball at a local school.

How about another example...Edward Griffin, a now "retired" (deceased)gang member. His partner (another gang member) is now a convicted murderer.

Who was arrested for killing Griffin...rival gang members. So, yet again, gang member killed...gang members going to the penal system.

My point is illustrated daily in southern california, and all over the country. Lets call it what it is, and not bury our heads in the sand a pretend this stuff doesn't go one.

Mr. Rogers, I believe you to be an educated man, but let's not over complicate simple issues. Gang membership is bad! And the message needs to get out to the youth, that there are only two exits from a violent gangster's lifestyle.

Although the death of a 15 year old is tragic, let's not minimize the reason he's dead...he chose the lifestyle of a gang member. He wasn't in his house making dinner when he was killed, he wasn't playing basketball with his broter when another thug gangster walked up and executed him...

Let us agree that the message to the community needs to be stop gang violence, make parents become more involved in their children's lives, stop relying on the Government to raise and be responsible for your kids.

As for the alleged "fights" that you were involved in, maybe your "assaults" didn't rise to the level of a battery or an assault, just a guess...

I find your views sometimes shocking seeing the dichotomy between your newspapers stance it took with creating Mynisha's Circle. You seem to be an advocate for gang members.

Mr. Appleton, you've taken the time to respond, so I will extend the same courtesy.

1) How is it valuable for parents in the community to know only that this murdered boy had a "criminal history?"

2) You seem like a reasonably smart person. It's your decency level, or lack thereof, that puzzles. You write of this 15-year-old dead boy "I think it also shows that there were underlying circumstances that led to his early retirement from his gangster lifestyle."
Early retirement from gangster lifestyle? Ugly. Secondly, it proves NOTHING about the circumstances underlying his cold-blooded murder. Remember, this alleged monster was in a tough neighborhood on Saturday night and appears not to have been armed.

3) Gang members can be in football and other organizations. Never said they couldn't.

4) You write: "It is important to let the public know that this wasn't a random act of violence that took the life of an innocent juvenile." It looks like the juvenile could certainly be innocent to me. Looks like he was standing on the sidewalk, unarmed, when he was killed. Not sure why you are so hysterical about proving this boy had death coming to him.

5) You cite James Bagsby, the juvenile accused killer. Yes, we published that he had a rough history ... but HE WAS ACCUSED OF MURDER. Sherman Jones, on the other hand, is accused of nothing but being slain. Thus, you've drawn a poor analogy.

6) Edward Griffin and his partner are examples of adults accused of serious crimes. Again, no comparison to a murdered child.

7) Gang membership is not a simple issue. Nor is the status of youths who may be losing their way, but can be brought back. You want to make it unsympathetically simple, and do so by committing all youths who get into some trouble or some gang affiliations to death or prison. There are other options and other outcomes.

8) You wrote: "Although the death of a 15 year old is tragic, let's not minimize the reason he's dead...he chose the lifestyle of a gang member."
You got it half right, it is tragic. As for the reason he's dead, we don't know that yet. You are assuming based on your prejudices that you have all the answers. He's probably dead for a hundred reasons: Poverty, culture, broken family, gun proliferation, etc. You can't saddle a 15-year-old kid with all the responsibility for his life.

9) You wrote: "Let us agree that the message to the community needs to be stop gang violence, make parents become more involved in their children's lives, stop relying on the Government to raise and be responsible for your kids."
I agree with that for the most part, although the government and others must step in for some kids. Not all kids are fortunate enough to have parents there for them. THAT's REALITY.

10) With the fights example, you have to consider the subjectivity of the law. A 15-year-old kid could beat up another kid tomorrow, blacken his eye and bloody his nose, and that could be the end of it. The same circumstance could happen somewhere else, a parent could call and press charges, and next thing you know, little Johnny has an assault on his SEALED JUVENILE RECORD. Hopefully he doesn't get gunned down in SB, because police are liable to publicize it.

11) I am not an advocate for gang members. I am simply seeing this issue much more clearly, and with much less bias, than are you. Because my fairness and cool examination of the issue and all of its contradictions and imbalances shakes the foundation of the worldview you have internalized, you are lashing out against me, calling me names. You are treating me to the same abuse and dehuminizations that you typically reserve for child "gang members" and "thugs." Your anger blurs your ability to understand more about them, and it blunts your ability to understand my logic. I'm afraid yours is the head that is buried in the sand.

Robert Rogers

Sometimes I wonder what makes people loose touch with reality? Is it easier to adopt the thoughts of the voice on the radio or the face on the television, than to exhibit compassion toward someone else? I realize we’ve spent 8 years fighting wars and battling each other across party lines. It’s perfectly ok that we’ve taken the art of denouncing our enemies “not to mention lying,” to another level. It should be expected that we are bound to make a few mistakes along the way.

Hey who would’ve thought the Iraqi’s would mind a few years in the dark and a hundred thousand “give or take a few,” civilian deaths. Serves em right, Saddam and his boys were the definition of evil. We meant well right? We are fundamentally sound when it comes to morality and things like that. It’s not like we kidnap people and hide em away in secret prisons. What’s the big deal, I could understand all the fuss if we were water-boarding people or training and employing mercenaries. Really who cares what the world thinks anyhow, Jesus loves me this I know cause… Wait he loves me unless I’m a gang member, parolee, menace, or should I say burden to society?

What about redemption and second chances? Seriously, we need to take a good long look at ourselves. Where are we headed when we express thoughts like "The fact he is dead will ensure he isn't out committing crime."

. Remember there were a number of Germans who believed whole heartedly in Hitler’s solution to their economic and societal issues. Is that you? Are you a modern day Nazi who is an advocate for killing em all? Some you certainly appear to be.

As for you Robert, keep up the good work. It will take sometime but if you continue to express yourself as honestly as you do, people just might start thinking for themselves again. At least that is my sincere hope.

Ty,

Well stated, as always. Your sardonic assessment of the war effort in Iraq was particularly sharp.

Robert Rogers