6-figure firefighters, part II

Firefighter’s salaries are a no win situation. These men and women work in spurts of shear terror or days of stark boredom. It only takes one major fire like the Old Fire or the Panorama Fire and they earn every cent of what they make. Thank goodness we don’t have those kind of fires often, but when we do, the FD is there never stopping until the job is done. Yes, it appears they are expensive to keep and the overtime may seem excessive. However, to not have the OT would mean adding more firefighters which is more costly when you figure in the benefits and retirements. The best of both worlds would be optimum, having enough personnel to cover the work and not work OT unless emergency conditions mandate. Many of these firefighters are also paramedics, the ones who come and get you out of the mangled car or truck or resuscitate you during a heart attack or near drowning.

Always there, always willing, always dependable. Just remember, back when, you had an opportunity to try to become a firefighter and perhaps it did not work out for you. Don’t begrudge these brave men and women with your petty envy. Be glad there are there to help you each and every time when you call. They are worth the price we pay and should be thanked for the jobs they do.

I gotta tell ya bob, trying to keep my "petty envy" at bay is awful tough.

Hope I'll make it through another day ...

Robert Rogers

Mr. Rogers…

What I find interesting with these salaries and their jobs. Yes they have dangerous and hazardous work…when the work. I support them 100% for what they do and what they make for doing it. But have you ever make a comparison of the jobs they do, they hazards they are subjected to daily to the jobs and hazards that confront our men and women in the military daily? Their (the military’s) pay in relation to the firefighters and policemen is really pathetic. Talk about laying on the line daily in today’s all volunteer force for the pay received is something I can not explain. We are supposed to be one of the richest nations in the world, we are the world’s policemen, and the pay of our military is an embarrassment.

There is something out of proportion here when you look at these jobs, the hazards endured, and the rewards for doing what they are doing today, firefighters, policemen and the military do for you and I to feel safe. I speak with just a bit of knowledge being a retired vet of 20+ years. I doubt that you will ever find a military firefighter anywhere making “6 figures” regardless of the OT. They are all salaried and OT (without extra pay) is just part of the job.

BTW, I bet you are still young enough to try for those big firefighter bucks if you have a mind to try and there are no physical limitations standing in your way. I bet the military would also welcome you into any branch should you really go crazy.

Mr. Rogers…

What I find interesting is these salaries and their jobs. Yes they have dangerous and hazardous work…when the work. I support them 100% for what they do and what they receive for doing it. But have you ever make a comparison of the jobs they do, they hazards they are subjected to DAILY to the jobs and hazards that confront our men and women in the military DAILY? Their (the military’s) pay in relation to the firefighters and policemen is really pathetic. Talk about laying on the line daily in today’s all volunteer force for the pay received is something I can not explain. We are supposed to be one of the richest nations in the world, we are the world’s policemen, and the pay of our military is a total embarrassment.

There is something out of proportion here when you look at these jobs, the hazards endured, and the rewards for doing what they are doing today, firefighters, policemen and the military do for you and I to feel safe. I speak with just a bit of knowledge being a retired vet of 20+ years. I doubt that you will ever find a military firefighter anywhere making “6 figures” regardless of the OT. They are all salaried and OT (without extra pay) is just part of the job.

BTW, I bet you are still young enough to try for those big firefighter bucks if you have a mind to try and there are no physical limitations standing in your way. I bet the military would also welcome you into any branch should you really go crazy.

Thanks for the comment.

You make a fine point about the large disparity between our local firefighters and our soldiers.

As for my prospects in those jobs, I wouldn't want to do either.

Money is unimportant to me, so raking in a lot of taxpayers' dollars is no motivation. My talent is in writing, so I wouldn't want to stifle that by fighting fires or serving the nation's military aims.

As for the military, that is out, at least in this point in history. I have no problem ethically with being very clear: I don't believe in our current military policies of unprovoked attack on nations in a way that results in the deaths of tens of thousands civilians. I would never allow myself to be a part of that.

Thanks again,

Robert

My husband is a firefighter. (Althoughwith a different department) He hasn't been home since June 11, and I"ll tell ya - I'd gladly give all that OT pay back just to have him home. I rock my crying kids to sleep beause they miss their Daddy. He has missed so many milestones with our kids! The money doesn't even being to make that any wasier to deal with.

The best way to handle envious Robert is to ignor him...writing is not what he is good at. His fact gathering skill lack at well....just stop responding to his BS.

Thanks for the kudos, Sam!

Make sure you bury your head deep into the sand when this weekend's papers explore the fact that the city is locked in budget crisis and neither public safety union has yet offered any concessions.

Thanks again, Sam. I'll make sure to post a PDF of every salary (i'll redact the names) just so you can see that every number is accurate.

Thanks for your comment, Shan!

Hope your husband gets back safe and soon.

Robert

How do you deal with the comment >? How many 'milestones' do you miss in 6 weeks? Huh?

Firefighting has multiple layers of safety built in to the system. If you look at insurance actuarial tables the top ten riskiest jobs (measured as deaths per 100,000 workers) are:
1 Logging workers
92.4

2 Aircraft pilots
92.4

3 Fishers and fishing workers
86.4

4 Structural iron and steel workers
47.0

5 Refuse and recyclable material collectors
43.2
35
6 Farmers and ranchers
37.5

7 Roofers
34.9

8 Electrical power line installers/repairers
30.0

9 Driver/sales workers and truck drivers
27.6

10 Taxi drivers and chauffeurs
24.2

Firefighters clock in @ 10.6, which is about the same risk as a 50 year old man taking an aspirin every day to prevent heart attack and stroke. (If he took Vioxx his risk would be 76 deaths per 100,000 persons per year.)

In other words firefighting carries much more risk than office work but half as much as much as truck driving.

(Be my guest in verifying my data. It's readily available online.)

Sam

Dear Sam,

Until you have lived the fire service life I would ask that you reserve judgement. Fire assignments happen several times a year, and when a career spans 25+ years those absences do add up. Just in the last six weeks there have been school award ceremonies, baseball championship games, dance recitals, birthdays, a lost first tooth, a teenager passing a driving test, my own job promotion, and a wedding anniverary.

The next time my husand deivers a teenagers' infant (over a toilet while she swears to her mother that she's a virgin) and is exposed to the possibility of contracting AIDS or Hepatitis because he gets her blood in his eye I'll remind him that his job isn't really that risky.

Mr. Rogers, if you'd like a story about the difficulties of the life of a firfighter and his family, please feel free to email me. I believe you have the address. I am incredibly proud of my husband and the sacrifices he (and the rest of my family) make to ensre the safety of EVERY citizen - even Sam.

So many career fire, police and military individuals do what they do, make the choices they make because of a different drum beat they hear along life’s path. You are free today for they have assured your freedom. They should be respected and shown a bit of gratitude from those who have yet to walk in their shoes. Shan speaks of her family and the time they are separated from husband and Dad. I also know some of the military who are now on their 7 deployment as a non-volunteer to deploy. To look death in the eye and spit. Until you can match that sacrifice or spend months on the fire lines perhaps you should have a cold one for us and count your blessings there are those who make AMERICA and you free. That you don’t have to face East 4-5 times a day and prostate yourself in the name of a foreign God.

Rodgers ; why are you pointing the finger at fire and police ? They deserve every penny they earn. I am also a city employee , resident , and "oh yea" my father is a firefighter . Yea my Dad would be the one cutting you out of your car when you get in the wreck of your life . Think about that : your being critical of the people willing to get even you Rodgers out of a life threating situation .My position In comparison to fire and police is at a much lower pay scale , (and yea I wont pull you out of a burning house) , I get what I deserve . I don't willingly risk my life each time I report to work nor does my position require the training and conditioning as safety employees . Why don't you write a story explaining the overtime situation ; if It bothers you so much , use your "skills" and write about hiring more fire to lower the overtime . Its obvious your need to sell more papers , when you provoke . You've become part of the problem . Spreading animosity .City police , fire , management, mid, and general . Are saying no to the citys proposals because , were not the problem there for why should we be the solution . I commend all units rejecting these unreasonable request . A "just" proposal would be fair , nothing has been fair.

Why don't we balance the budget fro the top down? Start with the 6th floor. Wilson, Penman and Morris alone could make a big dent by donating their salaray for a few months!

Dear Shan,

I have lived that life. I do live that life. I'm even old enough to have been drafted. I know what it's like to be forced to work in dangerous places where you'd rather not be. I know what it's like to work long hours, take care of emergencies, and miss family things. I also know that (except for the draft) I could have chosen another line of work.

I don't understand all this overtime. Professionals get salaries and work until the job is done. Period.

I'm all for a fair wage for a job well done. I'm not sure that the current police and fire wages can be justified on that basis. Everything I read indicates that the reason California and San Bernardino are in such deep financial holes relates to the salaries, pensions, and unlimited medical and disability benefits of police, fire, and prison guards. In fact the City of Vallejo has declared bankruptcy for that very reason. Will San Bernardino be next?

Sort of reminds me of the Vietnam Syndrome: "We had to destroy the city to save it."

The City of San Bernardino is falling apart. The problem appears to be a terrible economy. Car dealers going bankrupt. Mervyn's going bankrupt. People losing their jobs. Gas prices and food prices going through the roof. Medical care too expensive or unavailable.

What we need is a jobs program. Bring high paying jobs to San Bernardino.

If you look at these salaries, the Safety Employees Union has successfully negotiated the highest pay package for any group of workers in the city. Why not build more fire houses, build more police stations. and get more of those $100 per hour jobs into the SB? You just have to raise taxes. Or, better yet, make the 911 caller pay for the actual cost of the service. Say a $1000 fee for paramedics to rescue a slip and fall victim. $5000 for a simple auto accident. $20,000 for an accident with injuries.

Or maybe do what President Reagan did with the Air Traffic Controllers: fire them all, and start over. Crafton Hills' firefighter program certifies beginning firemen after 11 weeks of class. Senior Chiefs can be hired from the Midwest where they earn less than half as much. Police can do the same.

Or outsource the departments. See if folks with police and fire skills from other countries would like to come to America and earn $30-50 per hour. I bet that if you cut the salaries in half - still way above the community average, you could hire more and really have a safe city.

Times are tough. It's time for Police and Fire to share the pain, or move on. They don't produce anything, they are a necessary cost to the community. They need to be incentivized to reduce crime and prevent fires rather than come out after things have gotten bad. They need to work on productivity and efficiency instead of complaining about pay and work conditions.

HEy charlie you said we should pay the firefighters between 30-50 dollars per hour. It was said in another post that they actually start at approx.20-25 dollars per hour. its just the hours put in that increases there gross pay. So lets save money and not go with your plan of having immigrants come in and take U.S. jobs. Especially not for more money. How about people getting facts before they post nonsense on here.

God Bless all who serve to protect our quality of life.

My pay figures include ALL COMPENSATION. That includes overtime, lifetime pension at full pay after 30 years, lifetime medical, disability payments, etc. As a general rule, retirement costs used to be figured at 40% of base salary. With the current safety department contracts, the benefits have ballooned to 100%. These costs are kept secret. You have to pull them out of the budget and CalPers statements.

One way for the City to get things under control is to put these costs into plain view. Firemen should get a 401k plan like in the private sector. That way the kids don't have to support a bunch of people who aren't working. Let the brave firemen stand on their own, like the rest of us.

Meanwhile they need to control this overtime scam. Can any of them answer why firemen work 24 hour shifts? Nurses work 8 hour shifts. ER people work 8 hour shifts. They're busy all the time. They deal with emergencies constantly. Why not firemen? Why would you pay overtime for them to 'pass the boot', collect Toys for Tots, and all the other PR things they do?

And why aren't fire departments operated on a regional basis? All the cities out here have physically merged; why not the fire departments? Why pay for multiple Chiefs and Battalion Commanders and other high ranking positions? These are the highest paid people in their departments yet they all do the same paperwork and spend lots of times in meetings with each other.

Why not run it like the military? They get stuff done.

It's time to take a hard look at the concepts of "serve" and "protect". Shouldn't police and fire just take care of their jobs without all their posturing and threats of what might happen if they don't get paid? Shouldn't they just be like the electric company, or CalTrans, or the water department - folks who toil in the background to make the city and country work?

It's time to put pride back in America. There's nothing wrong with doing a job well for a fair wage.

fireman are jerks most are self absorbed. Fireman should not get paid over 100,000 dollars for sleeping at night and playing cards and playing at their "frat" house all day. Fireman are running the biggest scam and Robert Rodgers has shined a light on it pissing all the fireman off. We good; I am glad. A fireman should be paid what a soldier in Iraq gets paid.

Just wanted to reply to all of you who are ignorant on the topic of fire and police pay and your general thoughts on them all together. First I would like to take the oppurtunity to say I have done alot of research on some of the above topics mentioned as well as the previous blog on 6 figure firefighters part 1.
First to all of you who think firefighters and cops get lifetime medical paid for after they retire you are all wrong. The day they retire the no longer recieve any compensation from the city for medical reasons. Unless however they have been permanently injured or disabled in some manner due to an on the job injury, and then they only get a percantage of medical retirement depending on how injured or disabled they are. Now I know the firefighters do this, not sure about the cops but they(firefghters) have set up a trust, if you will, that they pay into out of their own pockets to cover their medical insurance after they retire at no cost to the city.

Now Im not sure what generouis compensation packeges you all speak of but the only great compensation they get is there 3% at 50 which hasnt even taken effect yet and wont until 2009. Now what this means is that after age fifty you get 3% of your base wage(not overtime) for every year worked. I will say that is quite a nice perk. But think about this the average firefighter dies after about 10 years of retirement, and can be directly contributed to the job in most cases. Now this number has grown in the past couple of years due to all the saftey precautions that have been put into effect. Things such as wearing breathing apparatus, the turn out gear has become much safer and more protective. But I think that is a small price to pay for someone who has given most of their life serving the needs of the communitty.

Now for those of you who think firefighters dont give back to the community wether it be their own or communitties on the other side of the country, well you are all wrong again. The first time I saw this was after 9/11 its called fill the boot. Its were firefighters stand at an intersection with a fire boot collecting money for those in need. Just to let you all know they do not get paid for this it is 100% volunteered time from all involved. For 9/11 they collected quite a bit of money and sent it back to the widows and family members of those that lost thier loved ones in the tragic 9/11 attacks. Since then Ive seen them do it several other times for katrina and things of that nature. Oh yeah the firefighters also built a house for habitat for hummanity right here in san bernardino and again it was 100% voluntered time. Thay also do bowl with a firefighter where all the proceeds go to the burn foundation, and yes all the firefighters involved do it for free. I could go on and on with the charitble things they do, like toys for tots shop with a firefighter, etc. and they all do it volintarily out of the goodness of their hearts or a desire to give back to communitty that has given them so much.

For those of you who think firefighters sit around and do nothing again you are all wrong. I live near the fire station on N. E. street and I hear their sirens going at all hours of the day and night. Did all of you forget about the old fire of 2003 when the firefighters protected all of your homes in the north end for days on end with no break no rest or sleep and for most hardly any food to eat, and then when the fire got into the local mountains they all went up there to protect their homes in not much better conditions. For those of you who are old enough do you remember the panorama fire. Or even last year when the fire in the north end where going the firefighters went for 2-3 days of nonstop work to save your homes. There have been many more times but I metioned theese because they are the most memorable.

Now for their pay yes they get paid very well and do benifeit from alot of overtime due to constant staffing. But what do you expect them to work for free. The city and fire department have a moral obligaation to provide the best and most cost effective protection to the city. The fire department does not have any extra personel on duty. They run at the minum staffing levels every day, So when a firefighter gets sick injured or takes a day off it needs to be filled, they dont have the luxury of just not filling the spot. Just hiring more firefighters is not the answer either becuase it is indeed more cost effective to fill with overtime rather than hire more people and run with extra people everyday, its not a whole lot cheaper but it is cheaper. I dont know about you but as for me I choose the cheaper plan and to let the firefighters work extra hours to save the city and all of us some money.

As for comparing the firefighters to soilders again that is completely wrong you are trying to compare apples to oranges. In the military the soilders do not have to pay for housing and many other things that non military people do. Now dont get me wrong I think the soilders should get paid far better than they do, and they do give the ultimate sacrifice for our freedom and I am very appreciative and greatful for what they do. You just cant compare the two they are not the same that is my only point.

So please in the future dont just start putting information out that you know nothing about. For all of you who did you should be ashamed of yourselfs. Its not fair to the men and women who protect our city, our homes, our children, and our lives.

This is in response to the misinformed people out there in the Inland Empire and surrounding areas.  Firefighters/Police Officers obviously put their lives on the line everyday during their respective tours. I personally know of the sacrafices of saftey personnel have to endure.  This is no 9-5 job with an hour off for lunch.  These shifts are 12/24 straight hours. At any given time a medical, fire, or robbery can come in at a moments notice.  This requires to be alert and coherent at all times DAY or NIGHT.  Also factor in the education required to meet entry level, now days you must have a college education, paramedic school, fire/police academy, EMT, etc.  All these activities take time to get, several years not days.  You cant just apply and several days later respond on an engine or truck company to emergency calls.  Also look at how many calls fire/police respond to.  Does your job require you have to be in full Personal Protective Equipment? or carry a gun?Why dont you look at Registered Nurses wages and their immense shortage.  I know several dozen nurses that make well over six figures. Law Enforcement and Fire Personnel have to deal with unruly citizens and/or people trying to cause them harm by shooting, cursing, and fighting them..  Are you going to deal with that? If you look at the overtime issue, other police officers/firefighters are covering for sick, injured, or vacationing personnel.  What happened the last time you took a week long vacation or any days off? Likely someone else picked up your slack... Last time I checked everyone deserves a day off here and there to prevent burn out.  Being in law enforcement or fire suppression should have perks. Factor life expectancy after retirement.  Its substantially shortend due to career long exposures to carcinogens, blood borne pathogens, and/or injuries. Before singling out public saftey look at what we do and whom we do it for.  Instead of causiing animosity you should be supportive. Keep in mind you expect the police and firefighters their for your emergency so should everyone else.

Firefighters are by far the most overpaid and underutilized group of entitlement minded civil servants I have ever seen. They think nothing about strolling around the beach with coffee in hand. I can tell that they are under extreme stress when they are at the beach. (Many fires at Pacific Beach I guess.) And lets not forget the Battalion Chief that joins his minions for his daily walk. While receiving their bloated salaries, too generous pensions, lifetime free medical, and the 'cannot be fired status'; they need to remember the normal citizen that can barely survive and is forced to support this their life style through taxes. That citizen will never have it as good as they do. My suggestion is to cut the pay in half, increase staff, stop overtime, and ensure that they are actually working during their day. On second thought lets contract out these services and get real value for our tax dollar.