We get mail

Pasadena’s interim police Chief Chris Vicino takes exception to Tuesday’s column  in a

Letter to the Editor.  Here’s an excerpt:

This letter is in response to the recent editorial “Gang Injunctions Can Work Wonders,” published in the San Gabriel Valley Tribune and the Pasadena Star-News.

Your reference to Pasadena’s interim City Manager Bernard K. Melekian was unjustified, as it failed to provide the reader with historical data that shows a spectacular crime reduction under Melekian’s leadership. By doing this, you minimized the good work of the men and women of the Pasadena Police Department and courageous citizens of the Pasadena community who have always collaborated with its police department to fight criminal activity.

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32 thoughts on “We get mail

  1. Unlike the board’s gang cheerleader I actually know Chris Vicino. We haven’t talked to each other in years and I respect what he has done as a cop. He’s a good man.

    That being said he’s in my opinion wrong on this issue. Melekian should have sought a gang injunction and a further reduction in part one crimes and homicides might have been realized. We’ll never know will we?

    There was no excuse for not getting one especially on the heels of the Halloween slaughter. That’s when the big hammer should have been dropped.

    The editorial is not a reflection on the good and hard work done by the officers of PPD, and they deserve credit for the reduction that was pointed out by Chris.

    Unlike the board gang cheerleader, I once again look at the safety of the citizenry, as I know Chris does and his officers. We simply differ on this subject.

    On the other hand you can find usagain running to Starbucks to see what type of latte his gang pals want today.

    Local Boy

  2. Melekalian’s a lefty in the model of Ramona Ripston & Erwin Chemerinsky. He’s an advisor to Merrick Bobb, the ultimate arm-chair cop second guesser.

    If you want to hold hands and hum, Bernard’s your man. If you want to stop crooks, well, that’s not his expertise.

  3. I wish some of you would actually talk to some of the gang members in pasadena to see what they say about the good police force. I’ve personally been stoped twice by the police and asked what “we” (gang members) thought about the “niggers” fucking up our “raza”. oh and they were both sgts. Right before all the racial drama happened here last year.

  4. Think what you want M.H. but in law enforcement circles, among officers up to sergeants who actually pay attention to department politics and the policy that certain chiefs have set in place to run their departments, he’s left of center. There’s no doubt about that.

    Local Boy

  5. pas res,
    impossible. all police are good guys and they don’t use language like that. (And they certainly didn’t expect you to repeat the incident in a public forum like this.)

    What’s most disturbing is some people are willing to look the other way when it comes to this kind of police behavior because their moral calculus allows for the good guys to do some bad as long as it ‘works out in the end.’ It’s the civilian equivalent of collateral damage.

  6. The poster said he was a gangster who we all know are all about telling the truth and being law abiding. No surprise you buy his story.

    Are their racist officers, yeah and that’s a shame. Are they stupid enough, especially two with rank to say what this gangster claims…I doubt it. Do you ask for proof…of course not because it fits into your racist and hate filled view of the world and cops.

    Shows once again where you sympathy lies. No wonder our halls of education are filled with so many young people with no direction or morals.

    Good job professor.

    Local Boy

  7. “…allows for the good guys to do some bad as long as it ‘works out in the end.” You must have been actually reading some case law. Don’t confuse the use of language in communication with someone with subversive tactics.

    If the resident was that offended by language, or if derogatory language was directed at them, then they had the opportunity to file a beef with the PD. Remember that many times there is quite possibly a tape recorder on the belt as well. Mine has been beneficial several times in the last 20 years.

    If PD’s never took action against their own, then we would not have lost several cops in the last few years. Contrary to some belief, complaints and IA’s are taken seriously and are not a fun event.

    Pasadena, like many places chose to lean toward Community Policing as opposed to the injunction route. Actions resulting from the injunctions brought law suits. That is possibly a reason we have not seen too many in the last decade. Perhaps the cycle is turning back and aggressive actions like the injunctions are better suited.

  8. A story from L.A. Times about drive-by murder and subsequent shoot-out involving Avenues gang and police. I’m sure usagin is now worried police might harass those innocent Avenues gang members just because the rest of the neighborhood might be willing to ‘look away as long as it works out in the end’.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-barricade22feb22,0,2198361.story

    A little history about Avenues gang.
    http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/they-wanted-all-blacks-out/14109/

  9. Why was the story of the shootout not in the PSN or SGVT? Give me a breaK! If other papers had it they should have had it.

    The guy is holding a two year olds hand and these cowardly bastards open fire? This isn’t newsworthy? His friends fire back but he’s not a gangster? That’s not what I heard but I guess everyone needs to arm themselves in some areas.

    Where I’m obviously a fan of this blog how can you ever be a fan of either paper with their obvious leftist leanings?

    The Black Panther story was pathetic beyond belief and not covering this massive shooting is no different! Your editors should be ashamed!

    Local Boy

  10. FX and LBOY,
    It’s really pathetic that you have to paint me out to be a gang apologist in order to score imagined rhetorical points. Again, violent criminals should go to jail.

    Our disagreement, it seems (bc neither of you have directly answered the question), is philosophical. Both of you seem to think its ok, in principle, to violate the actual (and not perceived–whatever this distinction means?) civil rights of some citizens in order to bring about some perceived greater good.

    On your view, if tax paying citizens are hassled (e.g., stopped and questioned) by police w/o a justifiable cause (where clothing, race, age and haircut are not justifiable causes) its OK. I think otherwise, as do several of those in jeapordy of being harassed.

    Officer Tom, thanks for joining the conversation.

    I think you raise two interesting points: 1) A person should complain if they are harrased and 2) Cops take charges of harrasment seriously.

    Re: 1, I think we can imagine several scenarios wherein a known gang member wouldn’t report verbal abuse by a police officer.
    First, he might fear retaliation in the form of hyper-vigilance and harassment bc of his claim.
    Second, this type of accusation devolve into a “he said, she said”–in which case, the good guy always wins. Third, I wasn’t aware that all Police officers have the ability to record all their interactions with people they interact with. I didnt think Police Unions would allow for that type of on the job monitoring. On the other hand, if its voluntary, we can see why a police officer might not record his banter with gang members.

    Re: 2, Would you agree most PD’s operate in a fraternal enviroment? That is to say, the bond between police officers is stronger than bonds between other coworkers in other places. Additionally, police officers feel unappreciated. In this type of environment, its hard to see how complaints about misbehavior can be taken with a measure of objectivity. Didn’t the LA Times article demonstrate that much this week?

  11. 1) You took this gang members statement as gospel without asking for one bit of proof or asking any questions as Tom did. To you gangsters have more credibility than cops. You are a cop hater and your words and the manner in which you post them points that out every day and is the basis of the opinion I have for you.

    My words are the basis of how people look at me and I won’t back down from any of them unless shown to be wrong. When confronted about your choice of words you cry about it. I battle back with facts when confronted, you do it with excuses. Typical of people like you, very typical.

    2) This isn’t a basketball game and I’m not scoring points, there your words I comment on and that’s all there is to it. Don’t say what you can’t defend professor.

    3) I never said it was OK to violate the civil rights of anyone just for fun as you imply, you’re a liar. Why do you have to constantly lie to try to make a point? Please post where I said that.

    I posted in response to “you” and showed you where courts have already made a determination that restricting the ability of certain people to do certain things in a certain area is in fact no violation of civil rights you “perceive” people to have in these circumstances. If you don’t like the ruling fine, but I’ve never said it’s OK to simply violate civil rights. You never argued the ruling did you?

    You obviously disagree with the court but I don’t think you’re some recognized constitutional scholar so spare me the attempt to show you’re smarter than the court that looked at the issue. I don’t buy it.

    3)I have answered your question before and with all your education if you can’t understand it than that’s your problem. Again you resort to a lie to attempt to make a point.

    4) Being “hassled” for no reason and being the subject of a “consensual encounter” are two completely different things. Police have the right to stop and talk with people for any number of reasons. People have the right to many times simply say no thanks and walk away. Will that sometimes put the officer in a “what’s up with this person” mode? Of course, and it should. It’s called being pro-active which many officers are afraid to be because of the crap spewed by papers and people like you.

    A stop could be just to show they’re human too, or to attempt to gather information, no doubt about it. There is no law that says they can’t unless you just made one up. There is a big difference between interview and interrogation, a very big difference.

    Gangsters know they are going to be stopped, as they should be, and are spoon fed their rights enough by people like you so as to know when they can leave and when they can’t.

    What you never point to or talk about is that most of these clowns are under some type of supervision, probation or parole, that officers are aware of. That means they realize they can be stopped and checked which I’m sure disturbs you.

    Many courts have ruled on when it’s OK to detain and when you can’t. Courts have also ruled on parole and probation stops, some good rulings some idiotic ones. Cops know this and if they go to far in an unwarranted detention cases are dumped or they open up their departments to liability. Cops are smarter than you think, but of course you will take a gangsters word for anything with no investigation as proved by your first post on this thread.

    5) Recorders in many departments are voice activated and go on automatically. Officers would be looked at as being “liars” if someone made a complaint to a department, as this gangster didn’t do but could have, and the sergeant(s) said their recorder wasn’t working yet other conversations in the same time period were present. Lying in the course of an I.A, is grounds for being fired regardless of the seriousness of the alleged complaint. You of course think cops are simply dishonest…I damn well know better!

    Lastly, the bonds of police officers have to be strong based only on the nature of their work. They can put people away, they can use deadly force and they can change the outcome of someone’s life. Those are damn serious responsibilities. They are not to be taken lightly and trust to people outside the job who have a problem with this authority isn’t easily gained. This would be people like you.

    For you or M.H. to think otherwise and paint officers as somehow underhanded by nature, looking at how to always get away with something, is crazy.

    Bottom line is you’re still full of crap and that M.H. thanks you for your post shows she hasn’t a clue on this issue either. If either one of you ever visited a cop website you’d see one thing just about all cops agree on is how they hate bad or corrupt cops. More than even you do.

    Local Boy

  12. Lboy,

    Re: your point #1–I wasn’t interested in the particulars of Pas Res case per se, but in the issues that it raised. Whether this actually occured or not is irrelevant to the issue I raised. And when it comes to matter of credibility, I would say neither the Cop nor the Gangster should be given the benefit of the doubt when either is accused of wrongdoing. I say, investigage the claims thoroughly.

    Re:3, I didn’t ask if you thought violating civil rights ‘for fun’ was justifiable; rather, I asked if you thought violating a person’s civil rights for the benefit of some greater good was justifiable. 900 lines later, I still don’t know your answer. “Officer down!”
    Even more, I never suggested all gang injunctions were violations of civil rights. (So, its little surprise you found criteria the court has upheld.) I questioned whether law abidinig citizens ought be concerned about the violation of civil rights EVEN IF it brought about a “greater good.”

    Re: your second #3–what have I lied about? More accusations w/o the burden of the Public Defender must be liberating, no?

    Re: #4–I love your language in this paragraph…What does it mean for a law abiding citizen to be the “subject of a consensual encounter”? Sounds like notes from your little black book to me.
    I disagree that most people (or young people, at least) know about their right to ‘simply walk away from a police officer.’ I’d be hesitant to try that, for the reasons you suggest…’it raises suspicion’ simply bc you refuse to be the subject of a ‘consensual encoutner.’
    Further, I’m not sure young people are up to speed on the difference between an interview and an interrogation. I presume interrogations happen in handcuffs or is that an interview…don’t know. And I’m confident some Officers take advantage of this ambiguity.
    Btw, how is that you’re able to call court decisions ‘idiotic’, while I have to shut up because I’m no ‘constitutional expert.’ Oh, that’s right, you have a badge. You know, walking around with a gun seems to have emboldened you. Too bad you cant get ‘caveman’ on a message board, though your ranting is close enough.

    Re:5, so it seems recorders are voluntary. self-policing, police? What a concept.
    And I don’t think cops are dishonest. I’m just suspicious of the cops who might have something to hide.

    Tom,
    Could taped conversations be used as part of IA investigation? How has the union responded to this?

  13. Sure. Much has to do with agency policy. Taping of contacts mandatory or optional? Then many of the issues that LB pointed out such as timing, “selective” taping etc would come into play. Other issues could come up such as seizure of the tape/recorder in an investigation. Does the agency need a warrant? Not sure if it is issued equipment…if it is personal property that you use, they might. Too many factors to just say yes or no. An association(union) attorney would obviously push to have any statements or taped statements suppressed just like any defense attorney would do…clear as mud.

  14. 1) Of course investigate thoroughly but I would never initially take the word of a gangster over a cop. That’s where we differ.

    2)I said the law already allows for some suspensions of civil liberties in another answer to the same question. It’s called Martial Law and courts have narrowed its use which I have no problem with. Or you can look at the legal concept associated with a declared “State of Emergency”. Either way what I’ve already said is that depending on what the situation is would dictate if I was in agreement with the use of either. Would I always be against it’s use, of course not. If someone says yes they are not much of a thinker.

    3) I don’t have a little black book and never needed one, why do you always have to post like a smart ass?

    Most people who are stopped don’t walk away because they’re not doing anything wrong and don’t mind talking. Gangsters and other gutter dwellers certainly know the way the game is played.

    You don’t know squat about what officers do or think, you just guess. Not all interrogations take place in handcuffs, in fact most don’t. When you move from interview to interrogation is when Miranda comes into play. Get it now?

    My opinion on(some)court decisions being idiotic is simply an opinion. You didn’t argue the decision I posted did you? If you want to argue certain decisions or case law do that instead of again simply being a smart ass.

    You know it’s such a bunch of bs when someone with supposedly some type of education, as you claim, has to resort to the old tired “Oh, that’s right, you have a badge. You know, walking around with a gun seems to have emboldened you. Too bad you cant get ‘caveman’ on a message board, though your ranting is close enough.”

    Having a badge and gun never emboldened me. The badge identified who I was, as the law requires, and the gun was a tool to use when needed, just like anything else. I’ve always been a pretty bold guy there professor, always had the type of personality I display here and have always been one to put myself into the middle of any situation I needed to. I in fact liked being in the middle of hot calls or action…loved it. Probably something wrong with me huh?

    Recorders are not voluntary at all departments but if you were a cop would you want a cop hater like you doing the policing? No thanks.

    I probably am more in line with how caveman responded to adversity than deep thinking liberal weaklings like yourself but it’s probably genetic. I can’t do anything about it and your cliche filled post says you can’t help but be a smart ass.

    I’m fine as a caveman.

    Local Boy

  15. Hey Tom, how’s your golf game?

    Last time I saw you was in La Verne last year. You were with Hud and some others and I was with R A and some others. We sat at the same table.

    If you remember you’ll know who I am. If you do say hi to the wife for me.

    Local Boy

  16. I am all for violating the right of smart-asses who quicky jump on a comment by an Anony-Mouse gangster. And say “look what a cop said !!!!”. I saw a cop beating a stubborn donkey what do you think about that?

  17. More examples of police violating rights of innocent people like Daniel Leon !!!!!!

    *******************

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-avenues23feb23,1,196646.story

    The young men who rule Drew Street have survived countless convictions, injunctions, evictions and deportations.

    Over the years, they have called themselves the Cypress Assassins, the Pee Wee Gangsters, the Brown Crowd Youngsters. They are as much clan as gang, deeply interconnected by family, with decades in their Glassell Park neighborhood.

    Over the years, they have called themselves the Cypress Assassins, the Pee Wee Gangsters, the Brown Crowd Youngsters. They are as much clan as gang, deeply interconnected by family, with decades in their Glassell Park neighborhood.

    Daniel Leon, 22 — a heavy in the Drew Street crew — died on the asphalt he and his brothers ruled. The wounded man, Jose Angel Gomez, was taken to a hospital and is being held on suspicion of killing Salas. Another gunman, Guillermo Ocampo, was later caught by police and booked for investigation of murder. Police identified all three as members of the Avenues.

    Leon was one of 13 children of Maria Leon, who lived at 3304 Drew St. until the city shut down the home last year with a narcotics abatement lawsuit. City Atty. Rocky Delgadillo called the home the gang’s “mother ship.” More than 40 arrests were made there in 2006, and the city attorney was attempting to ban Daniel Leon from the neighborhood before he was killed.

    Leon had a history of violence. He was arrested for killing a drug buyer at the house in 2004 and was ultimately convicted of being an accessory to murder. In 2005, he was arrested in a case in which prosecutors alleged “he brutally beat and robbed a 43-year-old man . . . as his wife looked on.” The wife would not speak to prosecutors out of fear of retaliation.

    *********************

    We need to defend Daniel Leon’s rights !!!!!

  18. Say Anything,
    Watch a smart-ass dismiss a dumb-ass with one sentence.

    GIVLRTCAK47,
    Funny but misguided.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

    LBoy,
    I post like a “smart-ass” in order to keep myself and the readers entertained. I think we’re both accustomed to having our opinions taken seriously (you as an officer and me as a teacher). But I think we fool ourselves if we think others give a rat’s ass about our message board opinions in the same way they might’ve when we functioned in our respective capacities. Sorry, Lboy, but here your rusty badge doesn’t mean shit, nor does my blazer and bow-tie.

    As part of the internet generation (sorry, Lboy, you just missed it by 40 years), I’ve come to recognize the limits and constraints of message board dialogue.

    This is why I am not going to spend the time arguing the particulars of case law with you. It seems to me you have to make your point succinctly if you expect people to engage the dialogue. It also doesn’t hurt to have a sense of humor. And in the same way you’ve attempted to label, profile and diminish my perspective, I’ve taken a similar tact by exploiting your obvious weakness–you are an oversensitive, unappreciated, former police officer who, in his retirement, expects the deference due when he walked with a gun and guard dog. When I say, “fcuk that,” he reaches for his rifle filled with Rush Limbaugh rhetoric and tells all passerby’s, “Watch Out!”

    To which I respond, “fcuk that.”

  19. You won’t argue case law because you can’t, you are a phony. You make things try to fit the way you thing absent fact or evidence to support your look at the world. When pressed for something tangible you go off in another direction as if nobody is supposed to notice you didn’t back up one thing you said.

    I accept the white flag of a supposed learned teacher making youngsters minds resemble oatmeal. Thank God I know educators who actually care for their students and have integrity, the system simply can’t be full of people like you.

    “A man has to know his limitations”.

    Dirty Harry

    Apparently you do.

    By the way, my torch has been carried on by others and I run into plenty of people who let me know my work and efforts were appreciated. It’s nice to hear but nothing I need to make me happy.

    You show a lot of class, just like any gangster.

    Local Boy/Caveman

  20. usagain writes ….
    “Say Anything,
    Watch a smart-ass dismiss a dumb-ass with one sentence. GIVLRTCAK47,”

    ***************

    I guess one man’s smart-ass (GIVLRTCAK47) comment is another man’s dumb-ass comment. Where is that sense of humor now?

  21. UC,
    When you take that paper bag off your head, meet me at the Library so you can tutor me in reading comprehension. I can’t make heads or tails of your comment.

  22. usagain’s mama aka Modesta Hernandez says….

    Several residents interviewed Friday said they supported the Avenues. “I’ve been here 25 years and they’ve never disrespected me,” said Modesta Hernandez. “On the contrary, they protect us. They help us.”

    They depicted the police as hostile and corrupt, and several said the shooting of Daniel Leon was unprovoked, although one neighbor said he clearly saw Leon raise the assault weapon at the officers.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-avenues23feb23,1,196646.story

  23. I have been trying hard to figure out what Pasadena’s true crime situation is; however, I can not find their crime stats posted on their web page. They are a medium to large law enforcement agency, so I thought they should have some kind of chart that says “here’s a snapshot of our crime problem (hate in particular [brown/black – black/brown]), but I can’t find any public acknowledgement of the information by Pasadena PD. Maybe I missed the newspaper articles that spelled out their crime problems in crystal clarity, but it would be nice to see it on their official web site. I would like to know how many street robberies they’ve had month to month. How many they’ve had year to year. How many aggravated gang assaults or murders have they’ve had (same period)? How many brown/black – black/brown crimes have they had/ reported to the County or the Feds? Who has been after who? Browns after blacks or blacks after browns? If my memory serves me correctly, Pasadena’s serious crime problem exploded much more alarmingly than Monrovia’s, but hardly a peep has been seen heard about it. What gives Pasadena? I want to know where to visit in your town and where to avoid. Can you share this information in a map of some sort?

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