Is there a place for Jesus in City Hall?
Ever hear someone pray to Jesus during a council meeting? I do, and quite often. The most recent meeting was at the West Covina City Council. Turns out, praying is OK, but sectarian prayer is banned in setting like City Council meetings.
But is it worth a story? Every meeting I'm at no one seems to mind it.
Prayer Ban for Public Meetings Upheld
By Jean Guccione
September 10, 2002 in print edition B-4
California city councils that begin meetings with an invocation will have to reassess that practice after a state appellate court on Monday upheld a ban on sectarian prayer in such settings.
The 2nd District Court of Appeal rejected the city of Burbank's argument that the ban violates the free-speech rights of the ministers who lead the invocation at each Tuesday's City Council meeting.
The court ruled that a prayer that invoked the name of Jesus Christ "conveyed the message that Christianity was being advanced over other religions," in violation of the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment, which requires the separation of church and state.
Santa Monica attorney Roger Jon Diamond, who represented the plaintiffs, was pleased with the ruling.
"Now, as of today, it becomes a precedent throughout the state of California," he said. Local city officials "would be violating their oaths of office if they allow sectarian prayers to go on."
Burbank Chief Assistant City Atty. Juli C. Scott was disappointed with the ruling, but said the city has not yet decided whether to appeal.
"It's too bad," she said. "I think the court missed the whole point. We shouldn't be in the business to tell people how to pray."
The case arose after Irv Rubin, chairman of the Jewish Defense League, attended a Burbank City Council meeting In November 1999 that began with a Christian prayer led by David King, a Mormon bishop, who ended with "in the name of Jesus Christ."
Subsequently Rubin, along with Roberto Alejandro Gandara, a Christian, sued the city.
A month later, Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Alexander Williams III issued an injunction banning sectarian prayer at council meetings. Ever since, the City Council has asked local ministers to offer nonsectarian prayers at its meetings.
Diamond said Monday that he would not be able to tell Rubin about the decision until today, when he plans to visit his client at the Metropolitan Detention Center in downtown Los Angeles, where Rubin awaits trial on unrelated charges that he plotted to bomb a Culver City mosque and a congressman's office.
In the 15-page opinion, written by Justice Kathryn Doi Todd, the court contended that "to demand neutrality when the interests of religion and government intersect is increasingly more important as our nation becomes more pluralistic."
The court also rejected Burbank's argument that the invocation is "private speech" and found "that any legislative prayer that proselytizes or advances one religious belief or faith or disparages another" is unconstitutional.
"By directing the prayer to 'Our Father in Heaven
Los Angeles attorney T. Peter Pierce filed a friend of the court brief on behalf of 34 California cities that begin their meetings with prayer.
Pierce said he would advise city attorneys, but warned of potential problems. "I think it is very difficult to determine what is [sectarian] and what is [nonsectarian]," he said.
The appellate court, however, declined to consider his argument that the ban is ambiguous and unenforceable
I am offended each time someone prays to Jesus in the public meetings. I wish that they would stop. I understand people need to pray, but at least respect every religion.
Most cities "get away" with sectarian prayers. Truth be told, it is actionable as a violation of the Establishment Clause and I believe there have been ACLU cases which have been filed against cities that engaged in sectarian prayers.
I know people's impulse is to be adament and say "screw the ACLU...Jesus is my only co-pilot" but I wonder if these same folks will open up their check books when their city gets socked with court penalities?
God bless.
The City of West Covina invites all different types of religions to our meetings everyone based in West Covina, not all respond. You pray as you wish or just a moment of silence. However, I disagree with the story. Our calendar system is based on the birth of Jesus Christ. Your story has a time stamp on top it December 15th, 2008 the part you are missing but is still the time reference you are referring to is December 15th, 2008 AD (Anno Domini) In the Year of the Lord Jesus Christ. Most Calendars follow the same time line. Our books in school reference 700 B.C. (Before Christ)or A.D. (Anno Domini) In the Year of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Councilmember Michael Touhey
Huh?....ok, dates and some historical events reference Jesus Christ, how does that relate to a city sponsored prayer to Jesus Christ in a public meeting?
Keep the prayers to yourself and let's just conduct the people's business.
Jennifer,
It looks like there is some text missing from the original article, fourth paragraph from the bottom. What comes after "Our Father in Heaven."
The folks who are saying everyone should be able to live with a Christian prayer are the same folks who get their undies in a bunch when someone dares to speak another language in their presence, and who buy into the nonsense that their President Elect is a Muslim. They think tolerance should only go one way.
There should always be a place for Jesus. Remember the reason for the season.Peace to all.
Rejoyce in our Lord and Savior. He is about to be born. He will bring love, hope and peace to our World. God Bless you all.
Every person in every city must pray for our elected officials. Especially President Obama and his family. He will help turn our nation around. I have faith in baby Jesus.
Yes Virginia there is a Jesus. He will be born in Bethleham. Watch for the star in the sky. Have faith and above all faith.
I'm so glad we don't live in a country ruled by religious fanatics like Iran, Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan under the Taliban. A couuntry where these same fantics try to inject their particular santimonious (but often hypocritical) intepretation of religion on everyone else......oh wait....I just read the three previous posts.....NEVER MIND.
Props to you Mike Touhey! Respect for all, but never forget the Judeo-Christian legacy that is ours as a nation and its preeminence in the creation and furtherance of this Beacon of Light, this U.S.A.
i am grateful that we all have the right to believe in who we want, where we want, and when we want. That is the beauty of our diverse NATION!
"Every meeting I'm at no one seems to mind it" - Jennifer with all due respect, how would you know if someone minds it? I assume because no one throws a tandrum or sues the city, it is assumed it is acceptable.
However, I would disagree with your assessment. I, as well as others I have spoke with, are often offended by such prayers being conducted in City Council meetings.
Unfortunately, despite the court's ruling in the referenced case, many cities continue to conduct prayers that promote a particular religious belief???
It is astounding that the average citizen would be compelled to file a lawsuit to simply get a city to follow the law.....keep the prayers at home and deal with handling the people's business while at a
Council meeting.
To the previous poster:
"AMEN"
Politics often creates uncomfortable tensions of conscience in public meetings and discussions these days. Any number of subjects are discussed in council chambers that raise the hackles of whomever has strong feelings about this or that topic. Religion is just one of the possible points of friction, but I'm not suggesting that there shouldn't be a logical separation of "Church and State." However, I would suggest that all of you "anonymous" folks become students of U.S. history. The constant thread of Christianity in all its forms, both good and not so good, is there through it all and I would submit to you that on the scales of peace, prosperity, and justice, Christianity has done more than any other movement to tip them in the right direction. Our system of law is the envy of the world, and it owes its existence to the Moral Law embodied in Judeo-Christian doctrine. This is not merely speculation on my part. It is fact. There is a clear movement afoot to eradicate Christianity in any form from the public square. This may not be so much a conspiracy of those with mal intent, but it is a movement nonetheless. I urge each American citizen to inform themselves about the real contributions of true followers of Christ throughout our history and ask yourselves, with the insight of George Bailey after his epiphany on what life in Bedford Falls would be had he never lived: can we prosper as Americans and can our way of life survive without the taproot of faith in God?
Merry Christmas
Typical evangelical scare tactics to once again convince "christians" that they are somehow "martyrs" who are being "persecuted" thereby justifying a further intrusion of their particular brand of religion into public decision making.
YOU PEOPLE ARE NOT MARTYRS...GET OVER IT...YOU'RE NOT LITTLE JESUS' BEING NAILED TO A CROSS.
As long as everyone respects the different religious groups that there are in our cities, who cares? We all the right to worship as we see ift. That is what America is about. Jesud lives in all of us, especially in our hearts. He certainly lives at City Hall in South El Monte, California.