Interesting L.A. Times article about separating public and private schools ...

First of all Amat will be back. And didn't co transfer one of their players from amat,because he would not be able o crack 1st string?

I side on the seperate side of the issue. CIF is about making $$$. that's it! They leave it up to the schools to police themselves. If a principal wants to win Public or Private they will bend the rules a little to make that happen. That does not happen everywhere, but make sure you realize it happens. The earlier poster said if you can't find 90% of the kids from the neighborhood then there is an unfair advantage. You can't get away from this. Even the South Hills, Los Altos, Charter Oaks of the world have 90% or higher from their area.
The bottom line for all of this is our society revels in winning. Whatever it takes "just win baby". We have sent a terrible message to kids for about 20 years now and it is just going to get worse.
ARAM: If you open up enrollment to be able to transfer whenever you want you would open up pandoras box. We think recruiting is bad now? Kids can right now go to whatever school they want as freshmen. That is good enough. If we let them transfer and be eligible at any time we will have kids transfer at an alarming rate. I wonder what the family of the kid who left South Hills to go to Los Altos and then went back thinks of all of this. Was it a good decision to uproot him from friends to seek the higher goal. I bet that kid didn't even play college ball. Was it worth it?

Anyway great topic

bluorca,

Schools go through cycles. While some schools in the Sierra League are going through a down (rebuilding?) year, Damien happens to be having a good year. The boys on the team have all been there since their freshman year. No one has been recruited. In fact, one our top runningbacks transferred OUT to a public school-Monrovia (imagine if he would have stayed!) Other schools recruit, but I can tell you, Damien does not. Sometimes we wish they would but that is something the principal has said he would not do. Ask anyone on the team. No coach was knocking on their door begging them to go. Most go there for the academics and parents like the "no girls to distract you" situation. If we happen to be "destroying the sierra league", it's because we've just jelled this year AND we just happened to play the 2 weakest teams first (Ayala- I honestly don't get your record. You're a much better team than it suggests!) How come no one was accusing us of recruiting in years gone by when we weren't doing so great? And yes, we might draw some better players next year because we're having a great year this year, but isn't that normal? I know many a player who did not go to the school that was closest to home because of a certain coaches/programs success. I don't think I have enough fingers on my hands to name the kids I know who were supposed to go to CO or WC but ended up at So. Hills, or RC ending up at Los Osos (and then back again!), Covina to CO, Glendora to CO, SD to CO, CO to SD, Glendora to SD...and those are just off the top of my head! Basically, kids want to win and they want to go to a school that wins, public or private.

It's pretty ridiculous for Herrington of all people to be complaining about media exposure. His team is on Fox Sports 1-2 times each year and has been since about 1997. There is a legitimate argument to be made for separating public and private schools in competition, but not from this guy. He benefits from every advantage he claims that private schools have over his team.

The issue of public vs. private and equity and fairness and recruiting have all come up on this board before. My opinion is that not all private schools are exploiting rules to their advantage, but some are. I also think that not all public schools are exploiting rules to their advantage, but some are. All schools and athletic programs are unique; it just depends who you are talking about.

Go ahead and separate public and private schools. Do it by geography, enrollment, competition, or whatever. But, don't believe for one second that you'd completely addressed the issues of equity and fairness. You'd still have to deal with all of the public schools that bend or break the rules.

I use to be of the opinion that public and private schools could be in the same league and go after the same championships.

I'm now in the separate leagues/championships camp. There are enough private schools for both a large school/small school division. Besdies all the current divisions are so segmented it wont matter if there are 2 more divisions. Instead of Northwest or Pac 5 or Western it would be Private large or Private small. Or soemthing like that. Jsut a thought....

Awesome topic...

I think the CIF needs to pay more attention to what kinds of teams these private or public schools are building. Someone, somwhere HAD to know what kind of roster was being constructed out at Oaks Christian or St. Bonnys. Ya think these kids just happened to show up and WAM!....they just happened to try out for the freshman team and they were actually good! How lucky! haha! There was a plan. The connections were made. The money was spent. Congratulations! You have a bonifide football farm overnight! The CIF knew this. Why did they not do anything about it?

My first guess is marketing. Perhaps there was some deal made with the CIF. How are people going to know about Oaks or St. Bonnys unless they make the papers...unless they attract national media. Sure, academics are valuable and alone will attract the cash but unfortunately, we live in a society born in front of the TV with one finger on the Tivo pause button. Football, basketball, hockey, baseball...all potential big $$$ makers with media exposure from the tube to the monitor.

Another good but different example of marketing was done by Amat. I dont think it was just a coincidence that Amat scheduled Charter Oak and Glendora, as well as continuing with Damien. No way guys...that was deliberate and if I was in command over there, I would have done the exact same thing. Because it is crucial for Amat to stand out from the other schools in the SGV, I think we are going to see Amat play more valley teams in the very near future. Ya know...a thought just occurred to me...

What if Damien has decided that they are sick of getting routed by Amat and losing recruits to Amat and have made the proper changes to make a name for themselves. Hell, I would be doing it too! We and the CIF need to pay close attention to Damien because they are in a public school league. So far, Damien is destroying the Sierra League. We'll see how next year goes and what kinds of players Damien draws. If they continue to dominate the other schools in the Sierra then perhaps Damien needs to take a trip to the Pac-5 as well. It would be an honor for the big name Catholic schools to welcome the Spartans into a Pac-5 league. Geezus...they almost beat St. John Bosco guys...

Oak's Christian and St. Bonny's should be in the Pac-5. This doesnt mean that ALL Catholic schools should be herded together in one division. Most Catholic schools are not football farms. But at the same time, ANY private school can decide overnight that they want to become a farm in a particular sport, spend the money to make it happen, give out scholarships, and have playoff contending teams in 2 years. The CIF needs to be aware of this and make the proper adjustments IMMEDIATELY.

Can any public school do this as well? They sure can. But I think that if it was an easy thing to do, or even necessary, we would be seeing more public football farms. But we dont and they are in a decline. This does not mean that it does not happen. If any school is going to complain about the fairness of having to play a parochial powerhouse...this public school SHOULD NOT be Hart..LOL! OR Esperanza, Los Alamitos, Long Beach Poly, Valencia, Edison, etc. ALL of these schools get quality players year after year...after freakin year. They make it happen. They get the recruits, spend the money, ya know the rest. They might complain about overpopulation and how its not fair because a student is bound to a school district, etc. Trust me...The schools above that I have mentioned have no problems getting the recruits that they want. THEY MAKE IT HAPPEN. No one forced Hart to schedule St. Bonny's. HART IS NOT IN ST.BONNY's LEAGUE. Herrington is just whining because his team got ripped by St. Bonny's 34-0 this year. Why wasn't he complaining last year or the year before? I'LL TELL YOU WHY...Because Hart only lost by 12 pts. last year and only 9 pts in 2004. It's not like St. Bonny's was destroying Hart year after year. Stop your whining Herrington...YOU KNOW YOU GUYS GET YOUR PLAYERS. Hart just got out recruited this year...and THATS IT! You know who should be complaining?...Long Beach Jordan,Long Beach Cabrillo, Marina, and Dana Hills just to name a few teams that should not be in the Pac-5.

Not all of the parochials give out scholarships but I know that the big boys do. Maybe its possible that not all recruits need scholarships, especially if your daddy is tied in with the NFL but if a potentially All-CIF player wants to go to your private school that happens to be a football farm, he will have absolutely NO difficulty paying for tuition. Every case is processed individully and even though full scholarships are few...they do exists. It's not like these scholarships are made publicly known. They are more like agreements made behind closed doors between the school administration and the parents. I know of at least 3 players who I will not mention that did not pay a cent of tuition while they were making a name for themselves at my Alma Mater. A family not having the means to pay tuition costs is not something they want advertised ya know? The reason why we don't hear about this whole "scholarship" deal more is because most people needing a scholarhip would probably not want anyone to know...man...Thats personal INFO!

In conclusion I agree that SOME parochials should be thrown into the Pac-5 if they are going to aggressively recruit. ANY school should be thrown into the Pac-5 if they aggressiely recruit no matter where this school is located. Let these schools make a name for themselves in the PRESEASON....not their leagues where they can beat up on non farm schools. There is nothing fair about this. There is nothing honorable about this. Oaks and St. Bonny's knew the type of teams they were building. They should have gone themselves to the CIF and said.."Hey guys, we are like...gonna bury EVERYONE in our league...We are loaded with Division 1 recruits on a scale thats pretty much unheard of in the Southern Section. Please have mercy on our league as we have...Put us in the Pac-5. I hear the Serra only has 4 teams...put us there...it would be the right thing to do." HAHA! YEAH RIGHT!

PAY ATTENTION TO RECRUITING PRACTICES CALIFORNIA INTERSCHOLASTIC FEDERATION! Correct me if I'm wrong but I think these Divisions are only good for 2 years. We'll see if the CIF makes the proper adjustments.

Go Joe Amat-the truth will set us free!

Wow Joe Amat,

That was one of the best posts I've seen here. It got scathing at the end. I like the "Bogan/Gano/Farrar era" comment.

1st, everyone needs to understand the difference between entering school as an incoming 9th grader and transfering. CIF allows ANY student that lives ANYWHERE to go to ANY school, public or private, that will accept them and be residentially eligible IMMEDIATELY. No district requirements(from the CIF at all).
2nd, the transfer rules from public to private, private to public, public to public and private to private are all the same. If you don't move - you must sit out, or find a way around that, but it is the same for everyone.
3rd, the entire, " do their students live in the 'district'" argument is not really valid - and may actually prove an advantage to theh public schools. Public schools have a natural feeder system where students matriculate within the dustrict and end up at a particular high school. Private schools have no such system. They must "market" their product in order to aquire students. Sometimes it is great academics, sometimes it is great co-curricular activities, of which athletics is only one. Contrary to teh stories that circlulate thru communities, private school athletes pay tuition. Everyone seems to "know" someone who did not have to pay, and as one who has been around private high schools for nearly 30 years I can attest that 99% of them are urban legends. Financial aid is usually available to any student that demonstrates need and, certainly, athletes get their fair share of that. but normally that is a very small portion and does not come close to covering tuition, books and fees. Do the athletes at public schools pay any tuition? That is a huge deterrent to athletes entering a school or transfer in. I can guarante(and have had converations with those that know) that their have been far more transfers OUT of private schools, than there are INTO private schools.
Finally, everyone is concerned with the Oaks Christians and St Bonny's but for everyone of those there is a St Genevieve or St Monica's. Public school folks complain about Loyola or Mater Dei, but no one was crying the blues when the Archdiocese had to close Pius X, Pater Noster, or threaten to do the same to Cathedral, Verbum Dei and St Anthony.
The bottom line, public or private, is that it is soley up to school's administration to determine the success at their particular level. If they hire and support the best coach available - they will succeed to the extent that they are capable. If they don't, they will flounder. There is no better example than right here at home in the SGV. The Bogan/Farrar/Gano era, along with the building of Diamond Ranch and Chino Hills has given families options to play sports FOR FREE rather than playing under mediocre, inexperienced coaches at Amat and pay big bucks. And I'm sure that no one in the public sector is feeling sorry for the demise of the lowly Lancers.

Here we go again, lets not get into the recruiting thing.

Aram,
I love the quote, "Technically they have to move" or is that obtain an address. I do not want to name schools but we all know what schools have been doing this for years and are still doing it.

As for the Hart Coach, he beat Amat this year and Valencia has beaten Amat the past couple years. Oaks Christian and St Bonaventure have no business playing in the division that they are in. There was a big reallignment this past year and they were not included. There should have been three private school leagues set up.
#1 Bishop Amat, Damien, St. Francis, St. Paul, Bosco.
#2 Mater Dei, Orange Lutherin, Servite, Santa Margarita, Juniperro Serra.
#3 Oaks Christian, St. Bonaventure, Crespi, Sherman Oaks Noter Dame, Loyola,

All three of these leagues should be in the PAC5 along with a couple other top notch leagues including school such as Los Alamitos, Norco, Corona, Mission Viejo, Esoperanza, LB Poly, Edison and a few others.

Last year at the realignment meetings S.O. Notre Dame and Crespi wanted to stay in the lower division and Amat and Loyola didn't want to move down . Well Notre Dame is #1 in the Pac 5 and Crespi is doing just fine also.

As for the notion of higher coaches saleries drawing better coaches, not sure I believe that. If you have read my past bloggs you know what I amn talking about.

Harts coach has a good program and he has the in with CIF so he is trying to make changes that would benifit his team. The CIF committee should not be comprised with any coaches, just fair human beings.

As far as the TV thing, I have seen many public schools on TV as well as on the news. Good coaches go out and make contacts to get the kids their props. They need to keep in good with the writers and not shunn them such as you said happened with the old coach at Amat.

No real answer to this but in Southern California there are namy pulbic school teams that compete with the private schools. Why is Hart complaining they are #7 in their division with a 3-4 record. Never thought I would see a divisional poll with a #7 team at 3-4, how did that happen?????????

It's flat out unfair. How can you have separate rules and the same goal and call it fair? That's like saying Ok, I'll give you a porsche and you a Honda and you have to drag race. Good luck. Even if the private school doesn't go out and get stellar athletes, they CAN, w/o fear of being reprimanded. Western Christian could, in theory, go out and get ANY player they want to and win State, all because they abide by a separate set of rules, all the while if a public school gets a transfer, they can't play varsity for a year (not sure if that rule is still there, but it was when I was a kid) unless they move or some other craziness. It doesn't make sense. It does however make sense to have separate playoffs. Take Covina for instance, they have an awesome team, look at the odds of them getting that team assembled, the stars have to be aligned just right for them to get a dominating team like that, yet in order for them to win CIF they have to go through the likes of Oaks Christian? All OC had to align was thier rich parents wallets. CIF doesn't care about being fair.

How many kids on Amat's football team actually live in the La Puente district? How many kids on the Damien football team actually live in La Verne? If you can't answer above 90%, then you must say the Private Schools have an advantage.

Compared to drawing enrollment from your sometimes, very small public school district,its easy to argue the advantage of Private schools of resourcing the best talent from countless religious private middle schools as your "farm league". Has anyone ever thought about the type of talented coaching drawn by the higher salaries and traditon of Private Schools vs. Pubilc Schools?

if the whole idea of kids in public schools not being allowed to go anywhere they want is to balance out the talent and not give any one team an unfair advantage then having private schools whom are not bound by these same guidelines in the same divisions is an unfair advantage.

scj,

I thought the same thing. You know what I think he's possibly suggesting? I think he wants it so any kid can go anywhere. Read the quote.

"They are more visible than ever and kids say, 'I want to go there,' and they can," he said. "There might be a kid in Ventura County say, 'I want to go to Canyon,' but they can't unless they move."

He's got a point on some level. A kid in La Verne can't just say "I want to go to Los Altos." Technically, he's got to move there. But that same kid could say "I want to go to Amat" and he's there the next day so long as he's willing to pay. In that sense, the private schools have a major edge. It could create the juggernaut that it is in some places. I wonder what the Amat people think about this. This a major advantage that schools like Oaks Chr. and St. Bonnie are using, so why can't Amat? It's a good question. What's the difference?

It's interesting. I am starting to lean toward letting kids go anywhere, but I know what a disaster it would become. I just don't begrudge kids or their parents for wanting to play for another coach who may not be in their home district.

Was the coach at Hart the coach when he had all those QB's coming through Hart and they were wiping eveyone out? He's just looking for excuses because he isn't winning.

Besides, as a previous poster said....no one making them schedule the likes of St. Bonnie and Oaks Christian.

This is not a bad idea but the problem with the whole scenario here is the fact that parents cant vote on any of this or any other issues that comes across the C.I.F. plate, really all of these administrators and executives are playing with other peoples money and other peoples kids.

There is no good reason why a kid cannot transfer to whatever school will have him, for whatever reason maybe school "A" has a horrible coach with a horrible program and the kid really wanted to play at a competitive level at a school where everyone got into the spirit of the season, where all the kids really dedicated themselves and thier youth toward the sport, but the school hires a twenty something who is barely learning the ins and outs and is more concerned with all sorts of other things, what is this poor kid to do if his parents own a home in the school "a" boundries.

As it stands now the more affluent of us can get a great education and a great football experience if we can afford a great school like Loyola or Oaks Christian, but many cant so then these kids are trapped, if the C.I.F. really wants to be fair then they have to have an answer for the kid who goes to a school where the principal A.D. and others couldnt care less about football, and how it impacts this young players life, and maybe these are the memories of a lifetime.

Have a conversation with a guy who played for a championsip contender and then talk to a guy who had a joke of a coach but a great deal of talent when he was young and see the difference and how it has impacted his life.

Too much power to non parents having all the say so and not enough thought into how not being able to have a shot impacts a life.

And answer to next question what if everyone leaves school " A " for school "B" who allways has a shot at a title, then school "A" will have to fire the local kiss but and get a real experienced coach, or even start an internship for coaches or something like that. This is a great idea but the administrators would never allow this to happen because, if it would, the coach could overnight become too powerful of a commidity, and coaches would begin to have a lot more say and school influence.

One more final note no one made Hart schedule St Bonaventure, or anyone else for that matter. And if no one likes the idea of parents having a vote about how the C.I.F. governs there kids sporting events how about allowing all the past all C.I.F. players of the year vote on these issues annually instead of someone who is appointed, surely the kids who have won high schools greatest award can be trusted to do the right things.

As one of the Jim Healy cuts used to chime, "Say What!!".

Hart Coach Mike Herrington complaining about the amount of exposure which he claims sides with the parochial schools? That's pure Bol--shoi!!!!

When can you catch a local TV covered high school football game that doesn't have Hart in it? What high school program (local or cable) doesn't start off with Hart, TO, or dozens of other north Valley schools before they get to more familiar high school teams.

Parents still have to pay the freight if they send their kid to a private high school.

If public schools are so outclassed by their private school brethern, why do the public schools pound the private schools in their annual all-star game?

More nonesense from the secular left!!!