Sunday Tribbin: League not as important

My Friend,

I think rather than complementing "him" or reflecting on you.... 'ya gotta just find some smarter friends !:?)

FWIW, I keep suggesting a proposal where we split the "AA" & "A" much the way you propose. (Great minds!:?) Everyone stays in their State Enrollment Division. The top teams based on previous success go into AA and the bottom teams compete for the single A championship. The single A champ goes to State along with both finalist from AA and one at-large selection in the division. No one gets screwed up by jumping the States hallowed enrollment divisions AND schools in single A get to compete against "like schools".

Might have been too logical for the suits at CIF!

(pssssstttt - just between you and me.... is your favorite basketball coach saving his job???)

I have a friend I call him everytime I need great advice. I usually preface our conversation with, " hey I need some advice and since your the smartest person I know... here goes!"

Now I have two smartest friends I can call on!

I always leave him the same thought... "That's either a complement to "him" .... or a poor reflection on " ME" !!!"

I say this. Rank the teams every two/ four years. Then create two divisions in each of 4 Conferences. Open, Large, At Large and Small. For the state Championships the Conference winners are again ranked and play. Four teams represent us.

The key components are the rankings are set at CIF and the Open are by schools whereas the At large is set by coaching rankings. Last year maybe Amat goes at large if the beat Poly and won Div 1 and Poly goes based on Coaches votes.

That's my take...that's why I called you, LOL cuz no way mine works !

My Friend,

You bring up an interesting point regarding leagues and the "football only" set up that exist *everywhere* not just our league. The trend is actually moving toward even more "mix'n'match" leagues so that each sport is balanced. but that's another conversation. That is one of the considerations is the rest of the sports, especially as you say "across gender lines" This is what makes it difficult with Loyola and Crespi in the mix. they don't have that "convenient "sister school" like Damien has with St Lucys that is able to compete on a similar level. Look up the Sunshine League and the Horizon league and see how they compete in girls sports. So who do the Amat girls play in that alignment?

The Oaks Christian issue is a big one in that area. they are "different" than other schools in their region and are presently in the middle of a huge fight regarding league placement. THey dominate the Tri_county and The Marmonte, Channel and Pacific View leagues don't want them. It appears the Mission League is out of the mix. The latest proposal is to put Oaks, Bonnies with Grace Brethren and Santa Clara. How fair is THAT to SC and GB?

The CIF office is sensitive to domination in a sport affecting the programs across the board. Conversely to Oaks domination in football.. didn't Salesian win multiple titles in soccer? So should we move THEM up because of that success? If we say no - then we are really admitting that "football rules' and while their actions don't show it and it may be true, CIF is hesitant to make THAT statement.

Finally, as I've said a few times here that no one has addressed, is the STATE playoffs are *enrollment based* and the rest of the state is set on that remaining. If the Southern Section conducts playoffs in any way contrary to that it creates potential chaos, even under the present system, for Divisions 4 and 5 the State enrollment limits for Division 4 (not to exceed 1250) and for Division 5 (not to exceed 500). The exception would be when a CIF-SS Division 4 or 5 school has an enrollment that exceeds the enrollment category for that State division. In that case, the school ***would be considered*** for placement into the next appropriate higher division.

For example, a CIF-SS school that is in Division 4 for the Southern Section playoffs, but has an enrollment of 1300 ***would only be considered*** for placement in Division 3 for the California State Basketball Championships. Not guaranteed. And if they go they would bump some Runner-Up that feels they earned the spot. On the reverse (and slightly more likely if Price gets to the CIF Finals in 4A they will drop to D5 in the State Tournament opening a spot in D4. That could create a situation where a committee might need to choose a team that lost in the semis (or even quarters) to advance. And how do they choose... and who do they tick off when they do.

The bottom line is any variation from enrollment has it's pitfalls. The current system picks a little of both methods and limits the number of potential catastrophes.

But hey... how 'bout those Spartans?!?

The question was about the year Amat dropped from D1 to D5- when St Mo's was in the league.

As you state, in the *Camino Del Rey Association* the bottom teams in all sports from the Del Rey will drop to the Camino Real and the TOP teams in the CRL will move up. That is why in basketball Bosco Tech dropped from the Del Rey to the CRL and Cathedral moved into the Del Rey - and is doing quite well.

St. Monica is no longer in the Del Rey League. They switched places with Cantwell and are now in the Camino Real League

This "system" right now is only being used in basketball. The baseball scenario actually validate the use of this system even more so.

When *leagues* enter playoffs as a whole it creates that problem. Amat was moved into a league with St Paul , Bishop Montgomery, who are schools relatively similar. But they also have La Salle and St Monica's - which are a bit smaller. CIF then has to make the decision on whether to play the league down - or force the smaller schools to play up. The baseball advisory council counts the number of *league* playoff wins and rearranges leagues. This year the league has moved up because of the success of the top three teams being in the semis.

FYI, Amat was moved *out of* the league with Mater Dei, Servite, etc when they formed an OC only league that is in the OC area - rather than the parochial area. That way they are not part of the releaguing cycle and are fairly protected from change. And BTW - Amat baseball was the league champion in baseball the last year with the OC schools - so clearly it wasn't a move based on competitive equity.

Eagle fan,

Please don't let facts get in the way of your feelings.

The truth is during the last *Enrollment Based* playoffs in 2006 (prior to the previous two seasons which were "competitive equity" based - here were the Boy's Champions:

IAA Los Alamitos - Public
IA Ventura - Public
IIAA Mater Dei - Private
IIA Colony - Public
IIIAA Artesia - Public
IIIA Centennial/Compton - Public

Of course D4 and D5 that year were almost all private schools when going by enrollment, so naturally they would be the champions.

FYI, the girls divisions were no different

IAA Lynwood - Public
IA Hart - Public
IIAA Troy - Public
IIA Brea Olinda - Public
IIIAA Diamond Ranch - Public
IIIA Bishop Amat - Private

That makes TEN out of twelve champions in the relative divisions were from Public Schools.

This new Bracket system stinks! They way I see it, Private schools need to be in their own brackets. They have the ability to recruit anyone from anywhere and then they match up with Public schools that do not have that ability and have to play with enrollment within their district. The talent is not always there but that doesn't matter to CIF. Then when school do go out and recruit and do their magic in showing residence, they get blasted for it. Private and Public need to be separated and then at the end the champs should play each other.

Joe

Then why did Amat BB move from D1 to D5 in one year?

Joe what is so hard about Bishop Amat, let's say, playing the Football schedule of opponents the whole calendar year. Seems pretty simple.

No deviations. Overall school competition. Across gender lines.

Maybe the point is how does Oaks Christain "avoid" being moved up after what they've accomplished in Football and yet somehow play Salesian in Soccer?

I'm all ears Joey. Make that make sense. Bishop amat clearly could compete in their Football League but don't... why?

Bishop Amat
Loyola
Notre Dame
Crespi

Why can't they all play Div 1 Sports all year long?

That's my question. What's the"right" answer.

I may not know what's "right" Joe but I can tell you... this is "wrong".

Kool Aid-not sure where you were going with that because either you were arguing with yourself our trying to prove someone elses point. You said-
" Notre Dame, Crepsi, Orange Lutheran playing against Salesian and Cathedral and Workman but somehow Bishop Amat can't play againt their Football counterparts? That's a load of crap, administrative, my hands are tied, I wish things were different, take it up with the CIF crap...and you know it. Come on Mark Keppel and La Puente meeting Bishop Amat in the playoffs????"
What did you mean by
"Bishop Amat can't play againt their Football counterparts?"
If you're referring to Notre Dame, Crepsi, Orange Lutheran who played Salesian and Cathedral and Workman - they are in Division 4A.
Amat boys were in Division 4AA- one division HIGHER.
The Amat girls played Keppel - in Division 2A - FOUR Divisions HIGHER.
So what were you trying to say?

This system means smaller sized schools in very strong leagues will have the deserving chance to win a CIF title with schools their own size. Also, Southern Section will be better represented in the state playoffs because smaller sized schools won't get knocked out of the playoffs early against large sized schools. If state playoffs were not based on enrollment, then I could see going to back to strength of league divisions, but until then, they HAVE to be broken up into enrollment sizes. Otherwise it will be too difficult to decide who gets to go to state, just like the past couple of years.
For people who like the other system the past couple of year there were 9 meaningless CIF titles. IF Div. 1AA was the strongest based on strength of league, the other titles were won in weaker playoff divisions. Two different ways of doing playoffs, same result.

A team is first placed where they belong based on enrollment. Then the divisions are adjusted based on the success of a school over the past FOUR seasons. Schools accumulate points for every win over that time as follows.

1st round - 1 pt
2nd round -2 pts
Quarterfinals -3 pts
Semis -4 pts
Finals -5pts

A team that goes wins a championship then accumulates 15pts in a year. the previous FOUR seasons are totaled and schools move up 1 subdivision for every so many pts (not sure of the exact #) If a school has NO playoff wins over that time they move DOWN 1 subdivision. The LAST four years are always counted, so next year - the 2005 playoffs will drop off the total points accumulated.

It should be noted that this proposal passed *overwhelmingly* with the CIF Council last March and there were only 13 votes opposed in the entire section.

Start with enrollment and move up (or down) based on competitive equity. How does it really get any more fair than that?

oops if you make playoffs and lose in first round you stay put.

Playoffs work like this:

If you do well I believe it is semi-finals or finals you will be moved up to a higher division.

If you fail to make the playoffs you get moved down division.

If you make playoffs and win you stay put.

Basketball Playoffs work like this if you do really well in the playoffs you get moved up. I believe it is winning it or reaching the semi finals.

If you do not make the playoffs you will be moved down but if you make the playoffs and don't win you will stay in the same division.

Fred, your a little late to the party on this one. Cross Country & Track have been dealing with this for years, leagues with teams in several different divisions. Unlike basketball with "65" divisions, or something like that, there are only four divisions in Cross Country & Track. Trim basketball down to four divisions like XC & Track and league finish becomes important again.

Next we'll work on trimming football from "163" divisions to four and all will be right with the world again.

Oops. Forgot. Basketball and football divisions are not about kids but money. My bad.

So ND losing to Workman in Basketball means they will ove down after having teh No1 team in Football?

How long has Amat Baseball been Nationally ranked and yet they play in Div 5 and now 4?

Whatever, how many Championships and National ranked #1 teams does Amat have to field before they moved up to Div 1?

That's my question.

So ND losing to Workman in Basketball means they will ove down after having teh No1 team in Football?

How long has Amat Baseball been Nationally ranked and yet they play in Div 5 and now 4?

Whatever, how many Championships and National ranked #1 teams does Amat have to field before they moved up to Div 1?

That's my question.

Much like the war that most will admit was a mistake ask your this question...who does the mistake benefit?

Ask the schools to apply for 32 divison slots that way no one will say they were placed too high or too low. Next have a committee make any final adjustments. Oaks Christian comes to mind, with their nonsense. Vote on the changes.

You you can't tell teh differnce between who is Div 1 and who's Div10 then we really ahve problems.

I am going to have to agree with Joe Amat here. The system seems like it is doing just fine. If teams don't win a league game but still make the playoffs they won't get far. It seems like the playoffs have more competition. It is more like anyone can beat anyone the way it is now. I am pretty sure Olu and cresp and ND won't be in that same division next year. From what I know everyone will get bumped up or down depending how good they do in the playoffs. Is that right Joe? I think it is but not 100% sure.

Kool Aid,

Instead of moaning and groaning - answer the question:

Give me a suggestion that will work that allows your leagues to stay together AND allows the CIF-SS to enter the best teams in the enrollment-based STATE playoffs - which isn't going anywhere. There are too many holes in any of those plans to seamlessy allow that to happen. You say it's not fair to have Amat or OLu play where they belong according to enrollment? Would it be unfair for La Salle, St Monica's or JSerra to play all the way up in D1 because the powers that be placed them in that league? Answer THOSE questions.

It is a STATE problem - not a CIF, Southern Section, League, or SGV problem.

And if you DON'T understand the question, or the problems the State Tournament has with the system - then please don't respond with more complaints

Joe that a load of crap and deep down you know it! It's no one's fault but your own that division 1 athletes on your campus refuse to play other sports. You should do what every low level school does in CIF. Play based on who you are and how you do. Notre Dame, Crepsi, Orange Lutheran playing against Salesian and Cathedral and Workman but somehow Bishop Amat can't play againt their Football counterparts? That's a load of crap, administrative, my hands are tied, I wih things were different, take it up with teh CIF crap...and you know it. Come on Mark Keppel and La Puente meeting Bishop Amat in the playoffs???? Koll Aid for everyone!

Here's what I want. Everyone complains about "the System". "The System has been adjusted twice in the last three years. They changed from 15+ yrs of individual enrollment based playoffs to leagues going into divisions in their entirety. That was unsuccessful from both a competitive and an administrative point of view.

The enrollment based system they now use allows for teams moving UP if they prove to be dominant programs. Amat is a great example. Their girls have been successful under great leadership and are competing in D2A. The boys, with subpar performances over the past 4 years under their present coach have remained in D4AA. If you're good they move you up.

Please, give me a suggestion that will work that allows your leagues to stay together AND allows the CIF-SS to enter the best teams in the enrollment-based STATE playoffs - which isn't going anywhere. There are too many holes in any of those plans to seamlessy allow that to happen.

What you see in basketball now is something that the CIF office is looking at seriously and encouraging other sports such as baseball and soccer to use. I think we're going to need to get used to it.

i agree, look at the trinity league. mater dei is ranked #1 in their division and so is orange lutheran. both look like they will win it all. St. John Bosco is also advancing. i think cif made an ugly decision this year.