Not Again: NY Times reports that Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz allegedly on 2003 doping list

Yesterday's Pitchers vs Today's Hitters?

Nolan Ryan consistently hit 100 MPH with movement and control...maybe that's why he holds the record for no-hit games.

I never saw him pitch, but they say Koufax in his prime was more dominant than Ryan...Yikes!

Do Today's pitchers throw harder? Hardly.

One can argue that today's pitchers are softer and weaker than those of the 60's & 70's. Today, they don't throw any harder, can't go past 6 innings, and pitch once every 5th day.

Brad ,
You are right they are bigger and stronger because of HGH and all the other crap they put in their bodies and if you think it does not go on today you are fooling yourself. You know I never thought about why all the baggy uniforms in baseball today but when I saw Manny in just a t-shirt and shorts working out during the suspension it made sense. To hide all that muscle mass .Where do you think all those current HR record holders would be without the help of the juice. Todays game is all about money and hype. Very few of todays ball players could step on yesterdays field and perform as the do now. I will give you Johnson as he is tough and would fit in with the old guys but after him pitching choices are slim. Comparing women bb players to men is a very weak example of evidence to prove your theory.

MAKES IT EVEN WORSE, Koufax did not face anywhere near the quantity and quality of hitters that a modern day pitcher is up against and he got to pitch off a mound that was 5" higher so for my money I'd take a Randy Johnson in his prime or currently CC or Johan Santana. Koufax was the best for his time but you simply can't compare his accomplishments to what goes on today as the game is now played by bigger and stronger men. For example, WNBA players, who compared to their male counterparts are very slow and weak, look good playing against each other but if the WNBA all-star team played the worst NBA team I doubt that they would even score a point. In fact, a decent high school men's team would blow them out. It is a fact that the level of competition in all pro-sports is greater today than it was 40 years ago so it is misguided to compare current stats and records to those from decades past.

Brad ,
Knowing that you are 53 that makes you post of yesterdays players even worse. Who would you pitch in game seven from todays players over the 2 Dodgers you mention ?

Brad you are a better man than me. I dropped my accounting class four times before I passed. I'm more a social sciences guy, can you tell.

I did however spend most of my semesters on the Dean's List so I guess we both did okay in our chosen fields of study.

Right about now I'm sure you think you're right because you don't understand my point and therefore disagree with the value of my position and I can except that.

The next time you don't agree with someone make sure you don't resort to conjuring up demons as a defense. I'll stand by my positions and allow that there are other ways of looking at the world, especially when many books and documentaries have been written about this very phenomenon I just put forth....America and Baseball. You do the research and then see if I'm wrong...start with Ken Burns and work your way back, lol.

Great discussion. Hope your teams do well this year.

Brad a side not about Accountants. When Enron first hit I said..."It's Over! When you can get the Accountants to cook the books...this country will go to he** in a hand basket...they are are last defense!!!"

Well without accountants no Crime Syndicate can prosper or survive. When ever people ask "Why?" the answer is always the same..."Follow the money!" And who handles the money?

So tell me Brad, from an Accountants perspective..."How long will this economic mess last?"

Let's see what kind of student you really were, lol.

Not Again, while earning a college degree in Accounting I actually took a semester course entitled "Logic" so my guess is that my critical reasoning skills are much better than the average blogger. I'm smart enough to understand that the world is too complex to explain with comparisons that may be coincidence or, after more analysis, may simply be generalizations that are not interrelated after all...let's call this error "Horoscope" reasoning. For example, the rise of "Latins" in baseball has nothing to do with the USA...28% of the players in the bigs are FOREIGN born, most of which are Latin. So the rise of Latins in baseball has zero to do with the changing demographics of the good old USA. I must admit that I'm not smart enough to understand how baseball's steriod use in the late 1990's and early 2000's is related to Madoff's fraud especially considering that it probably began over 15 years ago. And, why does baseball mirror life in America when, according to popularity, pro Football which for the most part is clean is presently America's game? And, the NFL had a king sized steriod problem in the 1970's and 1980's so can we argue that this is why Michael Milken committed fraud? Seems like a foolish comparison to me but it follows your Madoff logic. You expose "conspiricist" ideas, that is, the world is manipulated by a handful of powerful individuals...this is something that I just don't buy into. Moving on, the problem with those who want to strip individuals of records is than baseball is a team game so if you are going to attack individual records we must also eliminate the team records. This is understood for examples such as a college forfeiting wins if they get caught using an illegal player or an entire Olympic team losing their medals if ONE of the members tests positive for a banned substance so why isn't this logic followed by the baseball "record's purists"? Boys and girls this is big picture reasoning.

Brad, no sure what demons you're talking about. Maybe you just couldn't suspend your train like mission to see only your point between the lines. Baseball as always mirrored American Society. You actually proved my point. The Game has become global and so has American Society, are you still with me. The Game was Segregated at the same thing America was. When America took on a Latin favor...so did the Game. When America "cheated" to increase its ecomonic numbers so too did the Game's players. To argue that our economy was destroyed by one or two rogue industries or individual is to ludicrous but similar to what Baseball tried to sell to the Fans, Madoff and Canseco are just the tip of the iceberg of our collective shame and duplicity.

Brad, not sure where the demons are or why I need a shrink but your critical thinking skills are being drawed by your arrogance and single mindedness. Try looking at my points as upper division classes in college and stop trying to tell everyone else how stupid they are and start expanding your base of knowledge and reference.

Do you still argue that American Society and the Game aren't cultural dance partners? "Cultural Dance Partners...tell me that wouldn't make a good title for a book? I mean does everyone have to have the share Jim Rome or Max Kellermen's brain?

As time passes not only will none of the steroid freaks be honored in the Hall Of Fame but their season and career records WILL come down. There's a "tipping point" about to be reached pretty soon. What I mean is that when the first few cheaters got busted it was big news and a huge embarrassment to the individual, team and sport. Now look at how we're glossing over Manny and barely noticing the Big Papi story. So Mark McGwire was practically tarred and feathered and now we're laughing and winking and letting it slide. OK fine, we're on our way to Absolution. The purists amongst us just want the truth to be written in the record books by scratching out the names that don't belong on the all-time great lists. Once the players aren't threatened with the social and financial equivalent of the death penalty they should all be able to help clean up the record book and REALLY put all that to rest.

Hey, YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND, I'm 53 and a lifelong LA resident who as a kid went to the stadium and saw Kofax and Drysdale pitch, the later several times. And, LA Fact Dodger, it is hilarious to argue that pitching and talent are diluted because there are now 30 teams. In 1961, the bigs consisted mostly of Americans, which numbered 180 million at that time. Roughly 25% were of the age to play with 50% being male so the talent pool was around 22 million. The game is now world wide so the talent pool is 6 3/4 BILLION so there's around 875 million eligible males...its pretty asinine to argue that MLB can't find 200 more talented players in an increased pool of 850 million people. The whole huuman race is bigger, stronger and faster so records in ALL sports have and will continue to fall. No one argues that nearly all of the NBA and NFL players from the 50's and 60's were much too small, slow and weak to play in the modern game but the baseball puritans doggedly stick to their belief that the players from that era were better than the modern players...completely illogical considering that we are taking about the same gene pools. And "Not Again", perhaps you should see a psychiatrist to try to get rid of those demons. You did albeit inadvertantly say something of value...there was institutional acceptance of steriods as the owners turned a blind eye so they could pocket a lot of coin...so is it logical to shoot the messengers instead of the kings???

Baseball Bloggers,

This is why I LOVE baseball, it's a thinking man's game.

The conversations on this blog are well thought out, and most people have a load of facts to support their case.

My two cents:
Do steroids really make you stronger,faster, and enable you to hit a ball further...?

WHAT ????!!!

There is a MOUNTAIN of evidence that PROVES -beyond any doubt- that Steroids give the user a tremendous advantage...at a price of course.

Yes, they make you bigger, stronger & faster.

Ever heard of the Olympics? Ever pick-up a Body Building Magazine?

For the truly DENSE, Google 'Ben Johnson 1988 SEOUL' or 'East German Olympic Athletes'...

Baseball Bloggers,

This is why I LOVE baseball, it's a thinking man's game.

The conversations on this blog are well thought out, and most people have a load of facts to support their case.

My two cents:
Do steroids really make you stronger,faster, and enable you to hit a ball further...?

WHAT ????!!!

There is a MOUNTAIN of evidence that PROVES -beyond any doubt- that Steroids give the user a tremendous advantage...at a price of course.

Yes, they make you bigger, stronger & faster.

Ever heard of the Olympics? Ever pick-up a Body Building Magazine?

For the truly DENSE, Google 'Ben Johnson 1988 SEOUL' or 'East German Olympic Athletes'...

Brad,
By reading your post I am going to guess you are maybe mid thirties if that. How can you say the Maris and most of his contemporaries could not make it on todays major league teams. In that theme you are speaking of players like Mays ,Mantle, Yaz, Banks, Koufax , Drysdale , Gibson , Palmer, need I list more. You my friend on that aspect are speaking out of your ass because your mouth knows better . Really look into the history of the game and you let me know who you would rather have pitching for you in game 7 of the Series , Koufax or Gibson or one of todays pitchers, juiced or not , please by honest in your reply.

all this cheating crap and everyone gets forgiven --Pete Rose places a few bets, no harm no foul no cheating and he gets banned for LIFE.........all the duped up druggies should walk into the commissioners office and fight for Pete.......let him in...............................hall of fame that is.

Let's get real here, This so called test was 6 years ago, and most of the major leaguers were tired of people using so they denied the test and said make me positive so they could reach the limit to ban PED's and start testing. You will see that much of these names on the list are those who admitted positive. Steroids has nothing to do with the home run totals jumping, that has to do with the pitching being spread out with the expansion teams. Pitchers that would not be in the majors if the expansions would not of happened are pitching in the majors due to it. Have you ever seen a steroid hit a home run???? It wasn't illegal back then, it is now, so let's focus on the present and leave the legal past alone.

Brad Baseball is America's Game and reflects and mirrors American Society at all times. From the White Only playing that mirrored the WHite Only water fountains across America.

As we see after every cultural correction we are subjected to the Brads of the world, and by Brad's I mean those who rationalize everything in an effort to move forward.

Baseball and America were in an Economic Malaise and turned to Performance Enhancing Drug/Direvitives that gave the Game and our Economy a false sense of "earned" success and production. The sky was the limit and the money poured in. New stadiums palaces were built, cities mortgaged their futures to grow at an alarming rate and everyone turned a blind eye to the improbability of it all.

Now the Economy and Baseball have their apologists and finger pointers and rationalists all coming together to soil anyone who dares hold anyone accountable. They have common ground in wanting no one to reflect, investigate or pursue answers for fear that eventually the trail leads to institutional approval.

Is anyone surprised? This is America's dirty little secret...live for today, dismiss the past and look towards the future having never honestly addressed any new for honest reform.

Brad to say former players couldn't make today''s Major League ball club is to insult the greats from that era. I wonder what the Maris Family think of Mark McGwire now after being trotted out to witness the "stealing" of their father's Bataan Death March Home Run record breaking season.

McGwire is the poster child for America.... when hard work isn't enough...cheat and enjoy the benefits of "unearned and unsustainable" wealth and glory. The media will suspend logic and trumpet your greatness inspite of evidence that should have sent up red flags.

Last night I heard the new Rallying Cry from former managers, players and exectutives, they'll say...."I'll speak for Joe the Fan, "I'M SICK OF ALL OF THIS!!! AND JUST WANT TO MOVE FORWARD!!!"......(.how convenient ).

Let's see...Joe the Fan sure does sound allot like Joe the Plumber....and we see how much of a "real" voice he was!

Brad,

For more than 100 years, nobody ever hit more HRs than 61, and only twice was 60 reached. I realize the game changed in that time, but that is long enough a sample size to give me a trend as to approximately where the legitimate ceiling for human achievement should lie. Are you saying that there is no aberration when in the span of four years, that level was exceeded (in some cases blown away) six times? Six times!

If the playing field were more or less equal (pitchers and hitters were all leveled out on PEDs) then the opposite would be true. Nobody would have been able to reach those records because even though the hitters were juiced, the pitchers would have been good enough to keep them down.

So don't give me any BS that you just have to throw out all records because times change. Those records were ruined by players who decided to ingest or absorb chemicals into their bodies because they knew it made them capable of super-human performance. That sucks for anyone who is a real baseball fan.

And by the way, I'll guarantee you Maris faced better pitchers more consistently when there were 18 Major League teams than guys do in the current 30-team league, so I have no idea where your AAA angle is coming from. Snap out of it.

The fact is that in their prime Maris and most of his contemporaries from 1961 couldn't even make a modern day major league club. Add into the mix that the stadium where one plays adds or subtracts to one's home run total (if Willie Mays played in Atlanta aka "the launching pad" instead of Candlestick he would have hit 800 HR's) plus rule changes such as the lowering of the mound from 15" to 10" in 1969 and it is obvious that it is actually illogical to blindly compare records across eras and even more illogical to use records as the argument to be outraged by what turns out to be widespread PED use throughout the 1990's. If a juiced pitcher throws to a juiced hitter, then the playing field is more equal than say the AAA pitchers that Maris got to hit against in 1961. The "I'm appalled by steriod puritans" that want to dwell on the past and met out punishment to the players need to realize that baseball is a team sport so if one takes away an individual's stats than they need to also forfeit their team records the same as the Olympics strip a whole team of their medals when one individual fails a banned substance test. Are you puritans ready for this??? If not, then I for one would like you to stop with your nonsensical "but what about the records" argument.

Manny and Big Papi are both frauds and the dodger fans who still cheer Manny are equivalent to the giants fans who cheered Bonds to his records. This era in baseball wiped out some of the greatest records in the game. The only hall Manny will enter will be the Hall of Shame with Bonds,Palmiero,Sosa,McGuire,Clemons,ect. I would rather see Juan Pierre in lf who works hard at his game the right way.

diogenes said:
"It appears that both hitters and pitchers abused performance enhancement in those years. That ought to make it a wash on records then..."

Yeah, right, that's why Roger Maris' 40 year-old record suddenly got thrashed regularly for 4 or 5 seasons in a row, because the fact that pitchers were juicing, too, made everything a level playing field. That really makes sense to you? Think about it before you make a ridiculous statement like that.

It's exactly that sort of absurd non-thinking that now serves as some bizarre excuse for this shameful era of steroid abuse. Why are you so reticent to feel outraged? Is it because the haze of "cheating" has now been shown to extend to one of your players? Please help me understand your over-simplified view of the world.

Who cares..
It's in the past, leave it there..

Like if we already didnt know that MLB players
were taking roids..

If they get caught in the present time then that's news, but coming out with their names years after, come on give me a break..

Damage control a lil to late dont'cha think?

It appears that both hitters and pitchers abused performance enhancement in those years. That ought to make it a wash on records then, but still warrants punishment for breaking the rules.

Ties in well with Schilling's fake 'bloody' sock. The entire team was built on fraud and ESPN hype. Now ESPN better do the right thing, bring the story full circle, and crucify all of them. Everyone, including Manny, Poopi, Schilling, and espicially Terry Francona. They all should be made to answer for their actions.

Don't tell me anybody thought Manny's name would not be on this list .As the saying goes " That's Manny just being Manny"