Division Realignment for 2012-13 begins in December, what changes would you make?

“It’s a double whammy for us. “It’s like a left and right hook, then maybe a little punch to the gut because if you get into the playoffs you get to go two hours to get your butt kicked and go home. But they think it will be good for CIF.” -- Charter Oak coach Lou Farrar in 2010 after learning the Sierra would compete in the Inland Division

This is the final year of the the 2010 and ’11 CIF-Southern Section Division alignment cycle, which is voted on every two years. In December, leagues begin submitting proposals to CIF stating what Division it should compete in for 2012 and ’13 seasons, a process that takes several steps and is concluded in April. My question to you is what changes would you make? Should the Sierra remain in the Inland Division for another cycle if it fails to do much better than it did last year, with only Chino Hills reaching the semifinals, and Charter Oak and Claremont eliminated in the first round? In the Southeast Division, should the Hacienda remain there if its teams dominate again? West Covina beat league foe Bonita in last years championship, what if two Hacienda teams advance to the finals again, should the Hacienda get bumped up to say, the Central Division? Or what about the Mid-Valley. If Monrovia wins a second consecutive title, shouldn’t the Rio Hondo be bumped to the Southeast? A lot could happen, but here is what I would suggest for the next cycle…

Southeast
Hacienda (4), Sierra (3), Pacific (4), Del Rio (3) — 14 guaranteed, two wild card berths.
Note: I would drop the Suburban to the Mid-Valley and add the Sierra League to the Southeast, creating a strong playoff division with area powers and tradition. You would have West Covina, Bonita, Muir, Arcadia, Charter Oak, South Hills, Damien, Chino Hills and Ayala all in the same playoff division. What’s not to like? You would have 14 guaranteed spots, and two at-large. You wouldn’t have to change the Inland, simply by dropping the Sierra, you would still have four powerful leagues in the Inland with 13 guaranteed playoff spots, using three at-large berths to replace the Sierra, a league that shouldn’t of been there in the first place.

Mid-Valley Division
Almont (2), Mission Valley (2), Suburban (2), Rio Hondo (2), Valle Vista (2), Olympic (2) — 12 guaranteed, 4 at-large.
Note: I wouldn’t bump the Rio Hondo to the Southeast because of Monrovia’s success. Eventually, Monrovia needs to move to the Pacific, because the rest of the Rio Hondo couldn’t compete in the Southeast. What I would do is add the Suburban to make the division stronger, and drop the Montview, who hasn’t been able to compete, to the Northeast Division, which includes the Prep League and has six leagues with two guaranteed playoff spots each, and four at-large. By adding the Montview to the Northeast, you would then have two guaranteed playoff spots each and only two at-large, and it’s a division the Montview may finally be able to compete in for titles. The Mid-Valley would be stronger by adding La Mirada, Norwalk, Mayfair, etc.

Finally: there are no changes to the leagues until 2014, meaning Glendora is stuck in the Baseline, and Bishop Amat should continue to compete in the Pac-5 because the Serra is strong. If you have better suggestions, let’s hear them.

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  • Amat4life

    Fred, on a side note, what’s the status on Zach Shay, heard he had a concussion against Servite.

  • Fred Robledo

    That’s a good question, haven’t had returned calls from Amat this week.

  • APach25

    Does anyone really think that Glendora is going to be let out of the Baseline before Alta Loma is?

  • Bulldogs have bite

    Fred, wile you’re at it. What’s the status on West Covina QB Jonathan Najera? Heard he also had a concussion against Covina.

  • since we talking about it…

    Since this has become the injury thread. What about the QB at Ayala? Heard Colony knocked him out of the game last week.

  • Injury

    what about glendora, i heard they got hit pretty hard with the injury bug….

  • Frank

    Is this coach crying because he might have to face more competition?

  • APach25

    I dont see it as crying as much as it is stating the obvious… The Inland is a huge step up from where they were and playing the same league games does not really prepare them for playing the likes of Norco, Corona Cent., Upland, etc.

  • D-Mo

    I believe Big Lou was speaking about last season, having so many 10th graders playing. It really was a bad time to make this jump up.
    CO should rise to the occasion this season and make a good Div II showing. Hey, they might not impress everyone, but we’re very proud of the level this small school can compete at – win or loose.
    It would be nice to see the Sierra teams go deep when playoffs come around. It is certainly possible.
    If we drop to the Southeast, that would be fun. I just don’t want to hear a bunch of crap from our 909 neighbors about how they ran us off.
    We should stay Inland for 2 more seasons, at least.

  • ???

    Fred, i believe the most important factors of how a successful a school is in sports is based on population, demographics, and program -not neccesarily in that order. Population (total pop. of a school), demographics (its hard to be politically correct here but 4000 kids at lb poly or corona cent. is different than 4000 kids at arcadia or l.a. roosevelt ), and program (how well a coach has created a system/program at a school).

    how would you rank in those 3 in terms of importance and is this what cif looks at when they change leagues and divisions?

  • lougarcia

    i will say this much, wilson needs to go down into the montview league and thats a no brainer. south hills needs to be put into the hacienda league and thats a no brainer and most of all los alotos needs to be put into the valle vista. everything else stays the same.

  • Joe Amat

    I’ll throw out the “Joe Amat Plan” and it will give the powers that be some time to mull it over. It is the definitive solution for all sports – if anyone cares to drop agendas and go there.

    The REAL answer is to form * Multi-League Associations* and follow leagues like Bay, Ocean, Pioneer Frontier, Tri-Valley leagues and private school leagues such as Camino Real, Del Rey, Serra, Alpha, Delphic, Olympic, Express, San Joaquin that have already done so.

    The main reason is the competitive equity of ALL sports is impossible – in the SGV maybe a Walnut being a great example. In the Association format teams move up or down (A-B-C or 1-2-3-4) after a 2 year cycle **in each sport**. This is a continual self correcting solution across the board…For. Each. Sport. EVERYBODY’S happy!

    In the Fish Bowl…err…Mt.San Antonio Area you could create TWO Associations – One INLAND and one in the SGV.They could be divided something like this. You could shuffle a team or two from the Inland to the SGV or vice-versa…but you get the idea.

    Inland Association
    A- Baseline League – Alta Loma, Etiwanda, Los Osos, Rancho Cucamonga, Upland, Damien/St. Lucy’s,
    B- Sierra League – Ayala, Chino Hills, Diamond Ranch, Claremont, Colony,
    C- Mt. Baldy League – Chaffey, Chino, Don Lugo, Garey, Montclair, Ontario

    San Gabriel Valley Association
    1-San Antonio League – Charter Oak, Glendora, South Hills, Bonita, West Covina,
    2 Hacienda – Los Altos, Rowland, Walnut, Nogales, Wilson, Diamond Bar
    3-Valle Vista League – Baldwin Park, Covina, Northview, Pomona, San Dimas,
    4-Montview League – Azusa, Bassett, Duarte, Ganesha, Gladstone, La Puente, Sierra Vista, Workman

    Take your shots… or forward it to decision makers. Either way.

  • Out of Touch with Reality

    Joe Amat

    “I’ll throw out the “Joe Amat Plan” and it will give the powers that be some time to mull it over”.

    “Take your shots… or forward it to decision makers. Either way.”

    Really? Are you serious? I think someone needs to get out of their own fishbowl, ’cause me thinks thoust head has over growneth.

    Hey Lil joe. What makes you think anybody gives a rats azz about your opinion? And you Amat honks wonder why everyone takes shots at your high and mighty attitudes.

  • easy now

    wow out of touch – what got a feather across your butt. didn’t the blog headline say – ” what changes would you make? ”
    what I’d really like to hear is you “take a shot” at the plan on why it’s bad and give a better idea – if you can fashion one in that pea brain

  • New York

    Put Glendora back into the Sierra and move the Sierra into the Central Division, NOT the Inland Division. I think Charter Oak, South Hills and Glendora would do fine there.

    Monrovia is a total outlier when considering where the RHL goes. The RHL needs to stay in the Mid-Valley and Monrovia needs to join a new league. The Pacific would make the most sense geographically, and the Pacific is very well suited for the current Southeast Division. With Maddox as Monrovia’s coach, Monrovia would be a regular contender in the Southeast.

    The Suburban league is far enough south, CIF should have them play with some North OC schools, maybe in the Southern Division.

    CIF should also put La Habra into a tougher division. If a team wins its division every year, then it is in the wrong division.

  • Colt74

    Joe,
    I like your alignment with one change. I would put Azusa into the Valle Vista.

  • ????

    Zach Shay is out 4 the season n might b done w/football overall… very sad if its true!!!

  • progress

    Cif is just too regional. I understand, the economy is down, the budget is low, but they still got to do the work. 10-15 years ago, they really look at the teams, and put great divisions together. There was tons of diversity. Now they have locked divisions into regional cesspools, which is quite boring. I know it takes a lot of work, to logistically put together divisions, but hey that’s their job. Basically you are starting to see the same schools playing year after year. No area is suffering more than the Sgv teams. For exmaple the pac 5 is strong, but schools like Marina,Newport harbor, LB wilson, Milikan, Jordan have no shot at winning a pac 5 first round game, let alone the Division. What have those schools done to prove they belong at that level. Something has to be done there. You have teams Like, Oaks Christian, West Lake, Corona Centennial, Rancho cuc, and Vista Murrieta who would create playoff nightmares, and could go deep in pac 5. How Many titles does la Habra have to win before they get Moved to the inland,hell glendora is in the inland… I guess la habra will be playing Tustin again in the Finals. Is West Covina, Bonita, not good enough to play in the Central? What about Monrovia, Arcadia, Muir…with La Habra out of the Southwest, could they not beat some teams in the OC and make a run in Division 6? Covina two years in Row has taken the southeast champs to the wire beating them once…shouldn’t they along with San dimas move to the Southeast? Why is blair, keppel, mt view, gladstone, gabrielino, not in the lowest division in 11man football. Cif has a lot of work to do. They need to tweak some Divisions and some leagues too. We need to get out the culture of having schools play each other in every sport every year bc “it’s league”. The leagues and Divisions should differ from sport to sport, Then vote on it every two years. Then you would have Fresh New Schedule bi yearly, and will get to see who is the best year in and year out. If you want a rivalry to continue, you just schedule that one game in the preseason. Then every two years, it would be so exciting to see what Division CIF wants to put you in, and what the leagues will be. Then once the teams are selected for a division, then they can make the leagues somewhat regional. Other sports too, Like Bishop playing d4 baseball and Basketball…Gimme a break….

  • John Smith

    If the Sierra was to leave the inland division it would leave an odd number of leagues. Just get better and compete with the Corona Centennial, Norco and etc. Hell Charter Oak beat Corona Roosevelt so who says they can’t compete. I know people are gonna say school population but CC is somewhere around 2880, Chino Hills is bigger than them. it’s all about the coaches and players. If you want to be the best you have to beat the best.

  • Joe Amat

    74,

    I like it. That puts 6 in the Valle Vista and 7 in the Montview. They key is it all evens out. In some sports Azusa might drop to the Montview and maybe a Sierra Vista moves up. The fluidity is the key.

    progress… exactly.

  • Same ole sh*t

    Joe Amat & Progress
    I like your out of the box ideas, unfortunatley, I don’t think CIF has the balls to go with such fresh ideas.

    Along the lines of conventional thinking.
    Pac-5 should change the name to the Pac-5/Open Div. CIF should take LB Poly and Lakewood and move them to the Sunset and move the 2 least competetive teams from the Sunset to the Moore. Then move the Moore to the Western D4 – There should be 12 guaranteed spots for the 4 remaining leagues and 4 Open spots for any outside contenders. (last year it would have been Oaks, Westlake, St Bonnies, and Centennial taking the 4 open spots) This way we are assured of a true Southern Section Champ. Also, the Serra league needs to add a 6th team (3 playoff spots for 5 teams isn’t right – Gardena Serra would be a good fit)- For that matter, CIF has condensed things way too much – what ever happened to the days when everyone had 8 teams in their league and only 3 teams made the playoffs and if your league was really good that year you might be lucky enough get the at large spot as the number 4? – I hate these commie ideas that everyone has to make the playoffs to feel good about themselves.

    Locally, I would drop Ayala to the Mt. Baldy then I would flip Claremont to the Baseline and Glendora to the Sierra. Next I would move Westco and La Habra into the Sierra which would bolster the Sierra and maybe allow for a better showing in the Inland Section D2 – To be totally honest, I would like to see Amat in the Sierra as well (then we could truely have a SGV Champ every year) but I know Amat would never allow themselves to be removed from D1

  • Joe Amat

    progress,

    The Pac5 schools you mention have had some success in other sports besides football, so their inclusion in their leagues might be warranted for LB Wilson and Millikan in baseball or Newport Harbor and Marina in basketball or maybe girl’s sports. That’s why your point of different leagues for different sports is such a salient point. There is no cookie-cutter league for anyone

  • Joe Amat

    progress,

    The Pac5 schools you mention have had some success in other sports besides football, so their inclusion in their leagues might be warranted for LB Wilson and Millikan in baseball or Newport Harbor and Marina in basketball or maybe girl’s sports. That’s why your point of different leagues for different sports is such a salient point. There is no cookie-cutter league for anyone

  • AMAT 73

    Outof touch,
    You my friend are a prime example or should I say poster boy for the hate on AMAT no matter what club . The question was asked, what changes would you make and Joe gave his thoughts. Why would his input be any higher or mightier , is it because AMAT is in his screen name ? At least if you are going to come out like that give your input on your scenario on the subject instead of knocking someone from AMAT because you can’t get past your insecurities.

  • progress

    The key is the rotation, I just don’t feel moving whole leagues is a good Idea. Continuous changing of Division require continuous changing of the leagues. There are alot of match ups we never see bc of the system in place now. Imagine the match ups. This would force schools to stay on top of their programs. Kids who like to transfer or think about leaving their city, would have to slow down bc, they school you may want to go to because of better competition, may get knocked down a few divisions due losing for two years. The schools who are used to winning, would get there shot with big boys, and if they get hammered, they get drop back down in the next cycle. I just saying the Pac 5 seems to be South bayish, the Inland seems to be IE ish, The Mid valley and Southeast seam to be SGVish, and on and on. Just bunch all the similar level schools in every area into the same divisions, then that would equal out the traveling. I am sure there are teams in the IE or South Bay that are on the same level as our Blair, Basset, Keppel, etc….put them all in the Same Division. Then so on and so on for every level of Comp. then we can Argue which Area is the best football, The SGV best will go up against the the other areas best on that level every year.

  • Joe Amat

    same ole same ole,

    Not sure Serra would be as good a fit as some think. They just took one the chin too from Notre Dame Sherman Oaks. St Francis, St Paul and Chaminade have all seen a pretty big difference between D4 and D1 in their matchups with Serra schools.

    What I’d really like to see is for Damien to get bumped from the Mt San Antonio Area to the Parochial Area to add that extra team needed. But as Fred said, there will be no changes in leagues, only divisions.

    Since entire leagues must move up or down – I don’t see any real movement happening anyway. but it’s fun to banter about.

  • progress

    Well if entire leagues have to be bump, then some schools should drop their league and join another…Monrovia is in a 6 team league, the Pacific and Hacienda have more than that. They should find a league in a higher division that will take them in. Their is no way the RHL can follow Monrovia anywhere they go. I don’t think a Third place La Canada would want to be in a first Round Matchup with West Covina or Bonita. That’s a impossible scenario for them. At least in the midvalley you could get a La puente or Azusa or something.

    There is no way the SGV is giving up it’s lone rep in the Pac 5. Bishop Stays D-1 No matter what. Even if they lose 75-0 to servite. I’ve made some tough comments about bishops downward spiral and not being #1 in the sgv, but I never went as far as saying they should be D2… Listen to what you are saying here. Bishop is mid level team in Pac 5 team right now. Why would you move them. We have some teams on the rise in the SGV, but we need to keep our toe in the door in the pac 5 for future SGV schools, who may one day get to that level. Duh.

  • Joe Amat

    progress,

    You’re absolutely right. Amat is going no where as it pertains to the highest level. In fact an earlier releaguing added Crespi, Alemany, and Notre Dame to Loyola, Amat and St Paul. Only Loyola and Amat wanted to stay D1 but the others had to come along kicking and screaming. Even when we were at our lowest, right before Hagerty took over, Amat beat the Division 3 champion/ So moving down isn’t something that will happen without a major reshuffling.

    I say that because should Damien join the Parochial schools next time around, the best regional league just might be Amat, Damien, St Paul, St Francis, and probably Loyola (although St John Bosco would be interesting. They, however would have to leave the confines of the Orange County Area) . Whether Amat and Loyola could be successful in forcing the other 3 to step up would be an interesting chore.

    I think the next time schools change leagues is 2014. Until then we’re stuck with the knucklehead decisions they made a year ago.

  • As I see it

    I know that this is about division realignment but I believe this conversation should start with league realignment first because until you solve those issues these other more complex issues will never go away. How about putting schools that are similar in size that are very close together in the same league such as a league with Ayala – Chino Hills – Diamond Ranch – Diamond Bar – Chino – Don Lugo. The kids that go to these schools have grown up playing with and against each other their whole lives and the local scools have been stealing each others players for years which makes for great grudge matches and fan interest, the kids hate each other the parents hate each other it’s what football is all about. USC vs UCLA or Texas vs Oklahoma they hate each other. Look at the Smudge Pot game with Bonita vs San Dimas, it’s personal so why not make it a league game as well as Charter Oak and Glendora they have been pi$$ing on each other for years. Do you think Damien would not fit in that league? Los Altos – Wilson – Rowland – Walnut are all similar. South Hills – West Covina – Covina – Northview. You get the picture fill in your own local rivalries and then we can set up divisions similar taking into account geograph and school size boundries. I know I am pi$$ing up a rope here but I really believe we should go back to the old school way of 4A- 3A – 2A – 1A based on school size and you have to beat everybody in your division that has a similar school size in ALL of Southern California and then we just have one division champ for each!! But no, this is the feel good CIF where we all what to say we are champions – makes me what to puke.

  • jcaz

    Personally, I would love to see the leagues realigned even though that is not the topic of this thread.

    For example, in the Northern sections, I would love to see, Oaks Christian and St Bonnies in a league with Notre Dame, Crespi, Alemany and maybe Hart and Canyon.

    In the mid county areas, I think it could be interesting to see, Amat, Loyola, Corona Centennial and maybe Lakewood and LB Poly in the same league together.

    This way, we can have some of the better lower division teams included in the Pac 5 playoffs.

    Obviously I’m mixing apples and oranges with the privates and public’s, and even playing a little with the idea of tweaking the geography to make this work, but why not ?

  • Relentless D

    Fred, are you going to do a 2 minute drill segment with the fellas for West Covina vs South Hills?

  • Huskies

    Amat got dismantled…

  • great for the sgv

    Why leave covina in the vvl? Their success these last few years warrants a promotion. They are building a great base with covina vikings and should have a steady supply of recruits for the next few years.

  • 411

    Why not put Pomona up with Amat, from Pomona’s standpoint they can win the Pac 5

  • Oldguy1

    Obviously you need to educate the group on the releaguing criteria and time line (2 more years away) and the CIF Areas for releaguing, the majority of the SGV area is in the Mt. SAC Releaguing area. There is a criteria for the releaguing. Additionally the Playoff Divisions are adjusted every two years.

  • keep 27

    Joe is on it. Multi association leagues are the way to go. You could have some powerful leagues. If you finish in bottom spots of league you could move down to middle competitive league in assoc. That way you are never on outside of playoffs. Using westco as example. In football they belong in sierra but would get hammered in every other sport and I mean hammered. Its not fair to punish 19 other sport teams because football is really good. Charter oak got that punishment already. The multi league assoc would allow football at westco to compete with chino hills in football but not allow girls soccer to lose 12. 0. Every game. Good call joe.

  • WTF?

    I like how Aram is crying about wanting the Sierra being moved out of the Inland.And he wants them placed in the Southeast so they can dominate and pump up his ego so he has a CIF champ to write about every year. They do need to move but to the Central, not the Southeast. They are perfectly matched with teams like Colton, Cajon, and Rancho Verde. The Mt. Baldy should move into the Southeast. That move is legit and still gives EVERYONE a competitive chance.

  • Just askin’

    WTF- You just moved a league into the Central and another into the Southeast. Now who do you move INTO the Inland?

  • great for the west sgv

    Move Monrovia up. They should have a steady supply of Duarte players for years to come.

  • anonymous

    You mean move Duarte up. They have some very good Monrovia players on their team as we speak. They are 2-0 with those players. Most of the Duarte players chose to attend South Hills, Charter Oaks or went to Baldwin Park last year along with Crutchfield or left the san gabriel valley all together.

  • SGV FOOTBALL

    As a CO fan, if the coaches vote themselves out of the Inland that would be like an arrow through the chest! We were moved up for a reason and will be able to compete this year and the following years in the Inland. I personally do not want to see CO leave the Inland due to the fact that we all know that CO can play with the Inland. There is no going backwards from here, the CO family wants to be Inland champs and show that the SGV can play with anyone.

    Ceee-Ohhhh

  • COChargerfan

    But SGV FOOTBALL, what about all the other sports teams at CO? Is it really fair to them to get beat just about every game so the football fans can massage their D2 egos? And as much as I’d like to see CO win an Inland title, I’m honest enough to realize that it’s closer to a dream than reality because CO lacks the depth (i.e. enrollment) of the Inland power teams. And that’s a fact…Corona Centinnial has 100 kids on their roster and over the past 4 years have been ranked pretty much in the top 10 in the state…last year they were #5 in the state, in 2009 were #16 and in 2008 they were #1 in the state…and #6 nationally. Oh yeah, did I mention that year they beat De La Salle in the state title game? I love CO but that’s an entirely different level and anyone who thinks differently is crazy. It is what it is.

  • just sayin’

    COChargerfan – “I love CO but that’s an entirely different level and anyone who thinks differently is crazy.”
    Been sayin’ this for years!

  • COChargerfan

    Let me guess, since 1995??? Sorry, I couldn’t let that one pass.