Question: If you were a high school coach, would you challenge transfers? Breaking, Jake Payton ineligible

Breaking News: San Dimas’ Jake Payton declared ineligible for his senior year at Upland. Athletic motivation strikes again. Who wins? Nobody.

Before we were interrupted by another ineligible player ruling, here’s the question: paytonIn recent days Diamond Bar’s Antonio “Noodles” Hull, who transferred from West Covina to Diamond Bar, was denied eligibility at Diamond Bar until Nov. 16, which would be the second round of the CIF playoffs after West Covina challenged his transfer to Diamond Bar based on “athletic motivation,” which CIF agreed with, and was later held up on appeal. The same could happen to San Dimas’ all-everything standout Jake Payton, who bolted to Inland super power Upland. Just recently, San Dimas coach Bill Zernickow acknowledged the school will challenge Payton’s transfer based on athletic motivation as well. A decision from CIF could come in the next couple weeks.

The comment boards on Aram’s In the Huddle Blog over both transfers has been heated and passionate with discussion. There are some that say, including myself, that if a player wants to leave let them leave, regardless of circumstance. But there are others that say, rules are rules, and if you have evidence of athletic motivation, it’s your duty to present it to CIF and what will be, will be.

VBULLDOGSI get both arguments, and speaking to sources from West Covina and San Dimas in recent months, these decisions weren’t made simply because school’s have an ax to grind, there were a series of events and things that went on that ultimately led to these decisions.

And though I get it and do not fault West Covina and San Dimas for what they’re doing, I wouldn’t of gone down that road. It’s always been my opinion that if a student is enrolled in school and making grades, let them play, regardless of how they got there. At the end of the day, I’ve always thought it was about the student and parents best interest that matters most. I also believe that 99.9 percent of all athletic transfers are in some part, athletically motivated, and the majority of those transfer requests are approved, while those in Hull’s case are left to wonder, what’s the difference between that case and mine?

What I’ve learned from all this is there is no right or wrong answer, just your opinion. And as long as this silly rule that can’t be enforced fairly across the board is still in place, the debate will go on forever.

Only question left is, what would you do?

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  • Colt74

    No. If you don’t want to play for me, good luck somewhere else! Football, or any sport is a game. Have fun when you play and enjoy playing where you are at or why even bother?

    • FredJ

      I agree, for me personally, I would rally the troops with what I’ve got and enjoy the ride.

      • Colt74

        To me challenging a transfer is teaching the kids they are not kids but a commodity.

        • GP AKA Green Machine

          Hey 74 how are the Colts looking? They have a real chance to steal the VVL. I had you all at # 2. Payton was a huge blow. If you all win league, that’s a for sure favorable first round, then after that who knows.

        • oldfartcoach

          Colt74
          VERY true!

  • AMAT 73

    Fred J,

    How can you say you would not have gone down that road if you were a coach or AD . The question on the form asks if there is anything about the transfer that is of the athletically motivated or undue influence nature period . I am sure we all feel that if a player wants to move on they should be able to move no doubt whether by motivation or influence with maybe a penalty to the infuencer not for self motivation by the player . But that is not the case . It is a question on a form needed to be addressed . Is what you are saying that if you knew of either of the 2 happening you would lie on the form and send it along even though you had evidence of motivation or influence ?????

    • FredJ

      You can use the letter of the law as an example. If a cop stopped me because I was speeding would I freely be honest and admit it, probably not. Does that make me a liar? How many schools knowingly received athletic transfers knowing students enrolled there for in part, athletic reasons? Has a school ever self-reported itself? And using their argument, shouldn’t they? I think it’s easy to use the letter of the law argument when it favors your argument.

      You use an Amat sign on, are their players that left Amat in any sport for athletic reasons? And did Amat challenge every one of them, because, as you say, it would be lying on the form if they didn’t? I think you’ll find your answer is probably know.

      • AMAT 73

        Fred J ,

        It’s a known fact AMAT signs off on transfers mainly because if a player feels AMAT is not the place for them , the adios amigo and good luck so precedence it set on transfers .Of course if known they should have checked the box but they choose to make it their rule of not challenging transfers and are very consistant on that . Besides, basically every transfer is athletically motivated in one way or another is it not ? We are not talking about AMAT here so why bring us in it and besides bad example to use . Now ask me the cop question and yes I’d say you caught me and that might get me a pass , plus the fact of my AMAT ALUMNI decal in the back window . HA HA HA . What it boils down to is there are rules for transferring , whether you chose to follow the rules or bend them or break them , that’s up to the individual . i get the beef bloggers have with WC and soon to be SD because of if you recieve you should give without question and there lies the problem , past precedent on transfers by these schools . Bottom line is this whole transfer issue is bad for all concerned and a new remedy must be found because it only causes harm to the player and no one else , and that is not fair .

        • FredJ

          Thanks for making my point. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say they make it their policy to not check boxes, even though they know they should because of their own personal philosophies. What happened to rules are rules, which you blasted me for?

          • AMAT 73

            Fred J,
            I was questioning your philosophy not AMAT’S and I told you mine which are also not AMAT’S . If yours is to not check the box and if mine is to check it , then that’s fine . You can’t say I make your point because of what AMAT does and the flip side is I can’t say WC makes my point . I can blast you for not following the rules simply because you are breaking a rule , but can you blast me for following the rule ????? No you can’t on following a rule ,because as you said rule are rules , but you can disagree with my choice as having old school morals as Aram put it . Big difference don’t you think ???? And that’s what is causing all the posting .

      • WCDan

        “Has a school ever self-reported itself?”
        Short memory Fred, WC self reported themselves and forfeited
        the Covina game last year, remember? By the way in my lifetime I have gotten out of 4 tickets from policemen just by being honest and respectful with them, if I was guilty of speeding I would just tell him your right I was speeding sir. Sometimes they like the respect.

  • ballplayersdad

    Don’t be so naive as to think that there is not contact prior to enrolling or transferring. Students don’t just transfer without knowing what is on the other side. This issue will be around as long as there are athletics and winning. I am on the side of allowing students to transfer without penalty. Sometimes a situation is not a good fit. These students have a very small window to make an impression on college scouts, especially in football. Most other sports have club teams that play year round and they can be scouted outside of high school. Football has 10 games a year and if you are lucky a few more with playoffs. If you play for a high profile school you will have more opportunities to be seen by scouts. Situations may change during a students 4 years of high school and they may need to transfer for their own best interest. With the cost of college skyrocketing these kids need as many opportunities to be seen as possible.

    • Steve Ramirez

      I will never buy that high-profile school argument. That’s a myth. If you are good, the scouts will find you. Remember 1994 Heisman Trophy winner Rashaan Iman Salaam? He prepped at La Jolla Country Day, which was playing 8-man at the time. Not exactly a high-profile program.

      • FredJ

        You’re probably right Steve, but who’s choice is it, yours or the student and their parents?

        • Steve Ramirez

          I’m just saying parents and others believe that transferring to a high profile program will get their kid noticed when he wouldn’t otherwise, which is a myth. This is especially true now, with so many recruiting sites. It’s hard for gets to fall between the cracks.If you’re good, they will find you.

          • FredJ

            For the sake of argument, lets say you’re the second best quarterback in California, but you never play because the best quarterback in California is on your team and the same grade level. Shouldn’t you transfer where you get an opportunity to play and show yourself?

            There are certain positions, like quarterback, where there is only one spot for a starter, what do you do when a coach decides you’re both great, but has to choose one?

          • Steve Ramirez

            It’s called competition, something we used to do in America. There have been instances over the years where back-ups have caught the eye of scouts. Remember scouts don’t just come to the games, they come to the practices and that’s where a good coach comes into play, telling the scout, ‘Michael (the starter) is the best I’ve seen, but I’m telling you Greg (the back-up) can play.” Look at all the offers that Dillman, of La Mirada has received and he’s played less than 20 downs in his first two years.

          • FredJ

            Well Steve, part of the dream high school experience is playing. Those are the memories.

          • Steve Ramirez

            You can still have some good memories as a backup.

          • Local

            Fred,

            That is an interesting but extremely rare scenario. Kids want to play, can’t fault anyone for that. Let them have a free for all if they wish, it’s their experience. But, with Noodles, we have a starting QB who is transferring to a school where he will be the back-up, where is the logic in that? These kids know that sitting out a year is a real possibility, what a great risk to take. How miserable could they have been at WC and SD to risk losing a season?

        • Steve Ramirez

          I’ve come full circle on this. It’s clear that the “athletically motivated” and “undo influence” rule has created too much gray area. It’s probably time for CIF-SS and CIF State office to adapt the NCAA transfer policy, which is clear: You transfer, you sit out a year. There is no gray area.

      • AMAT 73

        Steve,
        You have to say he was one of the exceptions to rule because if your good they will hear about you and find you . It make sense that if you play in PAC-5 or Inland top half of their leagues , Trinity , Serra , Big 8 and so on, chances are likely more scouts will see you and you can garner their attention then if you play in say D-11 and the only chance a scout will see you if you are not a high profile athlete is if you play a Monrovia or like caliber team because they have those good athletes and will have scouts at their games .

        • Steve Ramirez

          Remember Marshawn Thompson? He played for Bassett and had a few scholarship offers and would have made it, had it not been for grades. I also remember a lineman at Workman, whose name escapes me. If you have talent, our the right size, they will find you. A good scout just has to look over a roster, see the stats, and them come out for a look see.

          • AMAT 73

            Steve ,
            Granted on the top talent , you will be found no matter where you play ,and especially if you are man among children in those lower divisions then the stats become glaring . What about about the players on the cusp who can’t make the camps and combines ???? Where do you think he has a better chance at getting noticed , Bassett or AMAT ???? Or MD, Servite or Santa Ana High if they is school with that name ??????

          • Steve Ramirez

            I would say the smaller school, but he’s likely to have better stats, which would get the scouts interested to assess his talent and size. If a scout is only looking at the big schools, he’s not being thorough enough, thus not doing his job. Either you have the talent and size or you don’t it. It doesn’t matter which school you attend. In fact, like I said, you might get more noticed at the smaller school.

          • AMAT 73

            Steve,
            Then what you’re saying is that something at that smaller school would have to jump out and catch the scouts attention to garner a look ???

          • Steve Ramirez

            Yes. From my reading, I believe the old way was that the stats, either season, career or game, would get you noticed, then the scout would have to come out and see if your talent level and size lived up to the stats you were producing. Kind of like in Trouble with the Curve, where Clint Eastwood has all those piles of paper, and tells the chief of scouting that “he looks good on paper,” and he will take a look at him. It’s like that in all sports. There are countless examples over the years — and I’ve been doing this for 20-plus years — where players from less-profiled schools got scholarships, because their talent warranted it.

          • AMAT 73

            Ok so odds are greater that by playing at a MD , SJB , Alemany , AMAT , Crespi and schools like that would get you found just because the scouts would be there to see other top caliber athletes who are already on their screen . Now we are speaking of that on the cusp athlete .

          • 12th man

            Some of the reasons why scouts tend too look at high profile schools is because it’s the closest thing you have to college ball, speed & size wise~ I would say Mater Dei & SJB & few other teams in the pac5 could probably compete with sub-par junior colleges & perhaps beyond that? There’s not too much difference in size when your High School offensive line is averaging between 6 2″-6 6″, 260-320lbs via Santa Margarita,SJB,etc.

          • GP AKA Green Machine

            You are correct, you tend to find an abundance of bigger lineman on the upper levels, but when it comes to skills, Fast kids play all over. If a kid has speed, that translates to D1 regardless of what level the kid plays on in high school.

          • ie baller

            Norberto Garrido

          • Steve Ramirez

            Thanks, IE…I just drew a blank on his name.

      • GP AKA Green Machine

        We don’t have to look to far to find these examples. Sean Smith from Blair went D1 and went on to play in the NFL. Blair is not high profile, and is the worst school in the PUSD. he could have easily went to Muir which is nationally known, but he didn’t. 6’2 200 lbs DB’s are hard to find anywhere. Multimedia along with numerous camps, has brought the recruiter to you. If you have the skills. Someone will see them. I really can’t think of one player in the SGV who wasn’t signed because of the school they attended. If you think about it only BA is considered high profile in our area anyway. Schools like Charter Oak, Westco, Monrovia etc..all have won, but there not what we consider high profile. After that you would have say Upland and Rancho, Alemany and STJB are closest high profile schools to us.

    • WCDan

      If there is pre enrollment contact from a transfer or his family, Coach Maggiore will refer the transfer or his family to the school administration, he will not discuss transfering in with the incoming party, nothing naive about it, thats just the way Maggiore handles transfers, nobody walking on water here, it’s just handling things in the manner that things should be handled.

      • Do your homework

        I hear that he can heal anyone’s illness as well, and once reprimanded Mother Theresa for being selfish.

  • Fatligian

    Will you guys let it go…..

  • LM resident

    No! Should be able to transfer one time without restrictions. If the fit isn’t good for the player or family, why punish the kids? Coaching changes, personality conflicts, whatever, this isn’t the 50′s or 60′s anymore. If a kid has a better opportunity to showcase for college or better play time, why not?

    • mr power

      this is the attitude will destroy the sport. showcase for college? better playing time?

      how about learn to work with others i.e. be a “teammate”.

      how about earn you way onto the field by practice and hard work.

      everyone can’t be a stater, there is nothing wrong with making your team better in practice and eventually “earning” your opportunity on game day.

      • LM resident

        This will hardly destroy the sport. One free transfer should be available to all kids.

  • GP AKA Green Machine

    I personally would not challenge a transfer, but if you have an AD advising to do so, you are put in a tough position as head coach. I know coaches have meetings with incoming players and parents regarding the upcoming year. Maybe they should openly talk about how to properly transfers if they do not like what’s going on. Inform the parents on the rules, how to go about it and how not to get your child denied. Explain to them your position, how your school is going to handle transfers. Explain to them the responsibilities of the coach, meaning that they can not fabricate any information when signing off on their paperwork. You can still hold the position that if you want to leave you can, but make them aware on how the game is played. Maybe even walk them through the process filing properly so they can transfer. This way if someone does something that will get them denied, no blame can fall on the coach, and no one can be called a bad guy etc…Then the Parents will be on the only one hurting their kids by not handling business properly. Having the information early helps. It does not mean that support kids leaving your program, it just means that you are showing them the correct door if they want to walk out.

  • Bulldogs have bite

    If I was a Head Coach and a particular chain of events lead me to challenge a transfer, then I would do it. We cannot just paint every transfer in black & white and judge each situation the same. Maggiore and Zernickow have their reasons for challenging these transfers and it’s their right to do so.
    There are loop-holes the size of Saturn’s rings that either of these families could have jumped through to avoid this situation all together. It boggles my mind how they somehow managed to not find their way through them. If you are going to gamble with your child’s future, you should learn something about how to play the game first. I’ll say it, the ATHLETICALLY MOTIVATED RULE SUCKS! But that does not change the fact that the rule is still there. These coaches are expected to and paid to follow these rules. I’m not bending any rules for anybody’s kid if it’s my job on the line. It’s the parent’s job to find a way to circumvent these rules without involving anybody needing to lie or look the other way for you. Do not by any circumstance think that you can just do what you want when you want until the rule has changed. Do not always assume that these coaches always have the best intentions for YOUR child when they also have OTHER children to be concerned about as well. Not just YOURS. So if blame is to be doled out, let’s not forget that these parents/guardians in some of these cases deserve a share of the blame. When you get too involved with your child’s athletic career to the point that you feel entitled to but heads with his coaches over playing time, play calling and other TEAM related activities. It is time to reel it in before you do more harm than good.
    It plain sucks when these kids miss out due to adults taking the fun out of everything. I remember when Justin Hornsby got challenged by Bogan and South Hills. Yes, some of us WC fans got upset. But not to the point of calling Bogan a scumbag or a racist. A few weeks later we were right back to focusing our support to our kids. It seemed to have worked, because we went on to win CIF that year. I also don’t remember the local blogs leading a WITCH HUNT against South Hills, its fans, and its coach. I’ve been chased off Aram’s blog for simply having a different opinion than him. He now calls me Bulldogs have spite. If having my own opinion makes me spiteful, then I’m proud of it. It sure is better than being a follower.
    I look forward to another awesome season of football in the SGV! I’m a big fan of all our local schools and not just West Covina. So I wish everyone good luck to another successful and memorable upcoming season! I hope all the kids stay healthy and play hard!
    Go Bulldogs!

    • AMAT 73

      BHB,

      I think the main issue is that the transfers in to WC were never questioned by WC as being athletically motivated and that is what is bothering most on the blog .You can’t play both sides of the fence on this issue in the eyes of the bloggers and if I am not mistaken , that was the reason the WC folks were pissed on the Hornsby challenge . How can Bogan challenge when he takes in transfers all the time , now it seems the bloggers have put those shoes on Maggiore . The same could be said if Gano ever challenged a transfer . It just seems hypocitical of CIF to have a athletically motivated transfer rule in place , because we all know athletes mainly transfer to better their athletic situation or an unforseen situation with their family causing a move or a bad economic situation . Now undue influence is something of a completely different situation and those that do the influencing ( coaches , staff , friends of the program ) should feel the pain but how do you do that to them is the question , punishIng the athlete is not the answer .

      • tonto

        Amat 73 you are a good guy and i appreciate your views. but you have no idea if the transfers into west co were questioned. you would be very surprised if you knew how west co handles a kid who is rumored to be transfering to west co. that is why kids that transfer to west co never have gone thru these problems. you seem to be well connected so check it out. that being said i don’t like to see kids transfering to west co or out of west co and i certainly don’t liike the climate we now have in high school sports. there has been a lot of things said over this noddles case that have been very unfair and unfactual…..and that includes the self-serving BS comments by the attorney.

        • Do your homework

          Ha ha ha, you precious naive bastards crack me up. What a holly then thou Coach says and what he does might very well be two different things. Do you really think he’s going to advertise his dirty little secrets to the peanut gallery?

      • Bulldogs have bite

        73,
        Since most of the bloggers are only getting one side of the story. I’m going to tell you that there was both undue influence and athletically motivated circumstances involved with the Hull case. One is hard to prove without the players and their families stepping forward and saying they were contacted. But why should they get involved? They are not upset about playing time or their kid’s situation. The other was easy to prove due to hard evidence.
        Maggiore takes in transfers all the time. Yes. He does not actively recruit these kids. They are recruited by the success of the program. Are we assuming that all kids that decide to transfer out of WC are going to be challenged by Maggiore? Or are we going to be rational and realize that each of these decisions are based on a case by case situation?
        To say some coaches never challenge. Perhaps they have not been given a particular circumstance or situation that has called for them to feel the need to challenge.
        I agree that the athletically motivated rule sucks. But to crucify these coaches for these challenges is ridiculous!

        • FredJ

          Interesting, you say these kids are “recruited” by the success of the program. That would mean they go to the school for athletic purposes, which technically, would be illegal.

          • Bulldogs have bite

            There is a difference when it comes to perceived illegal intent, and proven illegal intent. I have stated already that the rule sucks. But parents just can’t go emailing your school or CIF that you are going to transfer based on athletic motivations wile the rule is still in place. That’s just plain dumb. So attack CIF for the rules and let the coaches interpret how to follow those rules individually without crucifying them.

          • AramT

            Bulldogs Have Spite,

            You continue to gripe that the West Covina coaches are being “crucified” and yet out of the other side of your mouth, you continue to bad mouth Noodles EVERY CHANCE YOU GET and make him out to be the devil. It’s kinda ridiculous, especially for somebody like yourself with such thin skin.

          • Bulldogs have bite

            Am I bad mouthing him? The kid himself is just a victim of whatever situation his parents put him in. They are the handlers and shepherds of his future and they fumbled away his chances of playing this year. He’s not a devil, and I never called him that! You want to blame everybody in the world for this situation. Everybody but the one’s who are truly responsible for the end result.
            No matter how you slice it. The decision to email coach Maggiore their discontent with him and the team and the school was not a wise one. If you feel like calling coach Maggiore vindictive for challenging the transfer. The shoe also fits on Mr. Hull’s (parent) for sending the email only to voice their displeasure and inform him that they are leaving based on ATHLETIC MOTIVATIONS. An email that was later used to nail shut the lid on Noodle’s 2013 regular season.
            Why they just could not leave quietly after the season has concluded is beyond me or any other rational person. We all want to say things when we are mad. But having the strength to not actually say them is what generally would have saved Noodle’s season.
            Aram,
            I get it. You are just as passionate about one side of the story as I am the other. I just post rumors that are common knowledge amongst those who attend Bulldog games. Everything from players being contacted by certain sources from other schools to a group of players ditching practice because the coaches run to many conditioning drills etc.
            If you really want to get to the bottom of the story. You have to hear it from both sides. Maybe you should see if the attorney will give you a copy of the infamous email? I’m sure we will all have a more clear picture of what Maggiore’s motivations were to challenge the transfer after reading it. It must of been pretty damning to have both appeals denied based on one email.

          • FredJ

            FYI, Noodles’ 2013 season isn’t completely done. If Diamond Bar wins a playoff game, he’s back in the second round and boy could that be dangerous..

          • GP AKA Green Machine

            So do sit a kid, that held it down to get you that playoff win? I don’t know about that. That’s how a coach loses respect in the long run. We know that they his replacement is not a better talent but that sucks..If Mtown did that with Kurt Scoby…I am sure he would play well, but it just would sit right with me. But I am not on either team, and I am not the coach, so if everyone supports it…then so be it.

          • AMAT 73

            GP,
            I agree with you on that point . If the replacement held his ground all the way to the playoffs , how do you pull him for a player in Noodles situation and especially if he is a Senior ???? I could see using Noodles in spot play or on special teams but where’s the coaches respect and thanks to the player who bailed him out and stepped up when he lost Noodles.

          • disqus_wD2qThRkJd

            who said he is replacing Peterson?? That was never the plan!

          • disqus_wD2qThRkJd

            Fred , who is this cat and how would he know more information than anybody else ???Sounds like you know more information than you should!

          • WCDan

            He doesn’t necessarily have more info than everybody else, his statements on this situation are common knowlege if you are a close followere of WC football.

          • Brown noser

            Common knowledge AKA Propaganda

          • Coach M

            God, you sound like a whiny little kid who didn’t get what he wanted. Go cry to your mama!

          • disqus_wD2qThRkJd

            Hull’s dad never said he was transfering!

          • Coach M

            That’s right, we’ll just hide our bitterness and anger behind the rules. That’ll justify it!

          • Bulldogs have bite

            Coach M,
            Look how bitter and angry you sound. You went and signed up and made a disqus account just to mock Maggiore and West Covina. Continue to hide your pain behind your sarcasm and mockery. You are fully invested in your bitterness bro. We all know DB without transfers is dead in the water, so this must really sting for you.

          • oldfartcoach

            If I have to look at how bitter and angry that I sound, you should look at yourself spending countless hours on here trying to defend the vindictive move your coach made. I don’t think DB with transfers will do much either, BRO! I just don’t like the hypocritical nonsense coming from the West Covina/San Dimas factions. It truly sickens me. When Jones transferred your coach greeted him with open arms. And, if coach Layton didn’t actually care about the kids, he could’ve hurt him the way Maggiore is doing Hull. If you want to get started about undue influence, you shouldn’t act like your school doesn’t play that game. Because it is common knowledge to those of us over here that your school pulls the same kind of BS. So don’t try and BS the rest of us, sir.

          • Bulldogs have bite

            I’ve been back to this thread the last few days only to respond to your multiple aliases. Most of which offer little to the topic and are aimed at just attacking me or others that don’t share your opinion. Grow up!
            Hypocritical nonsense you say? Off one situation you make that assessment? Hull is not the first kid to ever transfer out of West Covina. Many others have left in the past without issue. We even make it harder on ourselves by contacting former school’s Head Coaches when kids try to transfer in. Tons of schools plays the transfer game now, some have no choice when their success draws them in. Parents have to make sure that when they transfer their kid that they do so without leaving anything to cause the old school further harm. Like recruitment of more players to follow. Aram keeps saying, “why nobody else transferred?” It’s because their parents knew it is an obvious situation of undue influence and those parents are smart enough to not jeopardize their kid’s future. Duh!
            People like you want to paint every situation in black & white because it makes for a simple argument for simple people. Every situation is different and requires its own unique solution.

          • Coach M

            My ATTACKS (as you say) are motivated by two factors. The first, the way the West Covina followers are attacking this young man. From what I see the temptation is always and has always been there to transfer to one school from another. Every school takes and loses transfers, not as big a deal as most people make it seem. Programs survive. Obviously Diamond Bar didn’t take Half of your team. Second, the Holier than thou attitude you and the other West Covina followers are trying to paint for your coach. Up here we are all too familiar with his tactics and wash his hand style. However, Coach Layton didn’t sink to that level of punishing the athlete for what adults have done. It is VERY common knowledge to us over here. So, sorry if defending the kids’ right to play the game bothers you, but it didn’t have to be this way and you and the rest of your followers are the ones who are at fault. If you would just keep your mouths shut, it would probably all go away, but every article that comes out, there you are preaching what a Honest and rule abiding coach and school you are. I’ve been to your games, dealt with your coach, and heard your fans. It’s the same bunch of BS you’ll find anywhere else. And in the end, this kid wasn’t selling drugs, stealing anything or hurting anyone. His problem is that he’s a VERY talented athlete and your school has NEVER lost such a talent before. What is really sad is that I felt really bad about the Hornsby kid and sided with your school on that one. Just take a moment to think how wrong that was to do to him. Your school and coach are doing the same thing to Hull. And all you say is that every situation is different. This one is, because this athlete LEFT your program.

          • disqus_wD2qThRkJd

            BINGO!

          • WCDan

            Yes Fred many kids may go to the school for athletic purposes, but in WC’s case you keep ignoring the undue influence part of this whole situation, there was an on going threat of two or three of our most talented players that were being coaxed into transfering to DB, this was happening for a while and there was a at least over a months time where I thought we were going to lose these players along with Noodles, and when one of these players shows up to the school quad during school hours with a pair of DB colored football gloves what does that tell you. Read point #2 in truths post above, all of those details including the 7 on 7 team, the playoff scenario, the contact, the football apparel, is also what I was told by a WC staff member and also by a couple of dads that are there all the time.

          • Coach M

            Wah, Wah, Wah! It’s Diamond Bars’ fault. If only they would’ve checked the box, but they don’t have any honor.

          • Coach M

            Dammit Fred! Stop using our own words against us.

        • disqus_wD2qThRkJd

          Im still trying to figure out HOW you know so much about the case?? Why were you priveledged to it?

          • Bulldogs have bite

            My credibility is no more or less than yours. Your opinions are all biased against WC. All anybody with a working set of ears has to do is attend a WC game and sit in the stands. Everything that has transpired through out the week will reach you before the 1st quarter is over. It is like that at every HS game.

        • Coach M

          Again, another vindictive whiner crying about West Covina’s chances at winning another CIF title.

          • Bulldogs have bite

            Where did I mention anything about our chances of winning? Your tears are blurring your vision and preventing you from reading! Our chances of winning CIF remain the same every year, better than diamond bar’s.

          • oldfartcoach

            Well you mention it right there! In fact you mention it every chance you get. And yes, your chances of winning one are better than Diamond Bars’. I don’t think any of us have to worry about them, even with their transfers. We’ve had their number for years and we may not have beaten your school lately, but we’re 50/50. The way I see it, without Hull for you or DB, OUR chances have increased a little too. But it still doesn’t hide the fact that your school and San Dimas are only hurting the kids, like I said.

      • disqus_wD2qThRkJd

        Ahhhh, the best response ive seen yet! You hit they key point in your first sentence Amat 73!

      • WCDan

        73,
        Your mistaken on the first sentence of your post. WC does not take in every transfer that tries to get in, even if they are top talent.
        Read the post by truth above, every transfer that come’s into West Co is questioned and if there is eligibility risk then the kid will be turned away. That is why a couple of the top athletes in the SGV have been turned away from WC these past two years. I wasn’t going to mention the name but since truth brought it up yes Ainsworth was one of those athletes, can you imagine him and Solomon in the same backfield? He tried to come in two years ago before his junior year to WC but the WC staff did not want to risk the eligibility issues that might of popped up. Last year another top running back tried to transfer in to WC and they turned him away and contacted his coach too. there are others besides those two. WC is no perfect program, but they do try to play it straight. I have been told by WC staff in the past, that they will check addresses to make sure transfers are really living there with their family.
        If the transfer is legit in the sense that they moved into the area then yes WC will be glad to have them. If Noodles would have just picked up and left quietly for Diamond Bar, we would not be reading about his denial from CIF and he would be playing his junior year for the Brahmas. Your point on undue influence, well that is my whole frustration on this topic.
        The whole issue of undue influence has been denied or ignored on this blog by the moderators and the haters who want to bash WC, but the details that truth brought up in his post above are the same details that I have heard, and are common knowledge at WC along with other details of undue influence.
        To answer Freds question of would I challenge transfers? Most of the times no I wouldn’t, but in this situation when there is undue influence comimg from another program against your program, yes I would.

        • AMAT 73

          WC Dan,

          WC may do all what you say and that is great of them but my statement wasn’t of the ” this is what happened ” type. I was pointing out what I feel is the blogs perception of went down . Now that the majority of the WC bloggers are coming out with how it went down , do you think it will change anybodies mind ? The idea of all transfers are athletically motivated in one way or another is the thinking of the blog and in 9 out of 10 transfers that’s probably true . No one cares if coaches or administrators follow the rules , the feeling is let the kid play ( which I agree 100%) turn a blind eye to the AM factor and let the player go . Throw in the belief of the blog that if you get transfers in you should let transfers leave just as easily is what is bringing all this heat on Maggiore It’s just a matter of not checking the box in either case that’s has everyone in an uproar in regards to WC . Your last paragraph sums up perfectly the problem , you say most times you wouldn’t check the box but in this case you would . Now don’t you think that comes across like when it’s in your favor you turn that blind eye but when it affects you negatively you check the box .Whether a player makes up his own mind or someone else helps him should it matter to the effect of making the player sit a whole season ???? In this case because of the undue influence it does but if it was a pure athletically motivated it would not . Why do you say that ???? Is it that you would be trying to send the message of don’t mess with my players or else I will make it tough for them to be able to play for you .

          • WCDan

            73, your quote,
            “Your last paragraph sums up perfectly the problem , you say most times you wouldn’t check the box but in this case you would . Now don’t you think that comes across like when it’s in your favor you turn that blind eye but when it affects you negatively you check the box .”

            That is where I think many on here are missing or in the case of the haters, ignoring the point, this is not a matter of turning a blind eye only when it’s in your favor, it’s about putting a stop to a wrong that is being commited against the team that you coach.( outside influence trying to lure your best players away.) As a coach you owe it to your boys to provide the best or most successful team enviroment for them, and giving the green light for other programs to try and steal away your players (by lying and signing off on the transfer) is not the way to do that.

            Your quote,
            “Whether a player makes up his own mind or someone else helps him should it matter to the effect of making the player sit a whole season ????

            Hull sitting out is very unfortunate, I think the penalty should not go to the kid unless he was part of the undue influence, I think it should go to the people responsible for the undue influence. If it was only Hull
            by himself leaving I don’t think this situation would have occured, but it wasn’t a matter of just Hull leaving, others were being influenced to go with him. As I said earlier, Maggiore as a coach owes it to his program to stop that kind of shady behavior against his players.

            Your quote,
            “In this case because of the undue influence it does but if it was a pure athletically motivated it would not . Why do you say that ????”

            Because I really don’t have a problem with athletically motivated transfers, I don’t like them, but I don’t think kids should be punished for them, undue influence on the other hand has to be discouraged, however penalize the influencers, not the kids, that is unless the kids are the ones doing the influencing, if it’s the kids that are guilty then it has to be discouraged, although sitting a whole season seems extreme.

            Your quote,
            “Is it that you would be trying to send the message of don’t mess with my players or else I will make it tough for them to be able to play for you .”
            I wouldn’t have a problem with that message.

          • AMAT 73

            WC Dan,

            Thanks for your reply, solid answers and to the point. I also have a problem with the athletically motivated part of the rule . It should just be undue influence that could stop a transfer if proven . You can’t penalize a player for wanting to better ( in their and parents mind ) their athletic situation period on their own accord. The fine line to that is how did the student chose their new school of choice ? Maybe when the outcome of the Payton decision is final we will see for the undue influence violation if found to be true and by whom,what will be the penalty for Upland , because we know what it will be for Payton .

    • Coach M

      That’s because you are a vindictive person who lays his grudges on kids and cares more about West Covina’s chances at winning another CIF title.

  • D-Mo

    No. Team sports do better when players are playing for the team. Nothing better than team spirit – for players and for fans.
    I don’t criticize coaches (well sometimes Dom). I’m guessing most of us have no idea what they have to deal with.

  • Saints Fan

    I think the real problem is Every situation is different and you can not just generally say I would do this or I would do that. It is also very easy to say “I wouldn’t do that” when you have never had to sit in that chair or position. There is also a huge case to be made for HOW you do something. There are hundreds of transfers right now every year and you don’t hear anything about them. Do we only hear about high profile one’s, ya sometimes, but it also is the High Drama one’s that make for a good story.
    Should kids be able to transfer freely, yah sure ok. Then what you potentially are going to get is an absolute free for all. Some people say no it won’t it will manage itself, some think it will only benefit the “Rich” (i.e. Mater Dei, et al) . But there pas to be a ripple affect. If you had free for all, then what happens when a stud player transfers in and suddenly is the #1. Well, the guy who was a #1 get’s upset and he transfers. Well he is better than another, so that person says WTH, I’m outa here and he transfers. That is why in some fashion, you still have to have some rules to determine the playing field. There has to be some guidelines to keep everyone playing the same game.
    But right now, and although it might change down the road, there will still be rules. You have to follow the rules. Not just the one’s you think are good or right, but ALL of them. We can not take an a la carte approach to life, and unfortunately this one is the same thing. In both of the cases that are leading to this topic, we ALL know in some way, some how there were certain things that violated in one / potentially could have violated in the other, certain existing rules. To sit back and say that what has transpired is wrong, is basically saying that the coaches involved should have just LIED, Ignored what had happened and just moved on. Maybe. In one of the cases, I would buy off on that more than the other. In one of them, it is a prime example of the Big Dog thinking they are “the Big Dog” and can do whatever they want. If the little guy doesn’t stand up to the big guy, the big guy is gonna keep on stepping all over them. These two examples are prime examples of each situation is different and you have to look at them that way.
    So to answer the question, If I was a HS coach, each transfer is different and how they go down, how they are handled is gonna determine how I handle it.

    • FredJ

      If kids are transferring freely and it becomes a free for all, as you say, then blame the public school system. There are supposed to be checks and balances for this. Shouldn’t the school districts be responsible for checking addresses?

      • Do your homework

        The days of having to live in the district where you attend school has long since gone. All you need now is a release from the district you live in and be accepted in the new district. It’s practically just a formality these days.

  • Coach M

    “Question: if you we’re a high school coach, would you challenge transfers?”

    Answer:
    Incoming transfers – I would NEVER challenge a student-athletes transfer. The high school experience is so short that every game matters for these fine young men in their quest to move on to the next level and possibly obtain a scholarship. If the student-athlete and their parent(s) are not happy at their original chosen school, then they should have the RIGHT to attend the school of their choice!

    Outgoing transfers – These kids nowadays need to understand that life is tough, you need to stick with the original commitment that you made. Just because you’re too young to drive, vote, or even legally make choices for yourself doesn’t mean squat. Suck it up and stay where you’re at! Your team, school, and community are depending on you (as well as my job!). And there is no way in H**L that I would EVER let a kid transfer to a league rival! Besides, I wouldn’t want CIF to come after my program if I wasn’t honest about your intentions to transfer. It wouldn’t be honorable.

    • CoachBillZ

      Coach M

      Well said sir. You can play for my program, but don’t even think I would let you go somewhere else. It wouldn’t be honorable!
      By the way Coach M, thanks for showing me where to check that little box on that form. Otherwise that kid might’ve got away Scott free.

    • SD FB PARENT

      San Dimas High and Upland High are not League Rivals, They aren’t even in the same Divisions, and they’re is no way they would ever play each other.

      • Coach M

        Then why block the transfer? Seriously, what good will come of it? San Dimas’ administration should have taken the matter directly to Uplands’ administration. “But this matter was different, But the coach was only doing this and that, But BLAH BLAH FREAKING BLAH!” Do you even know how childish you sound? You really sound like you could give a rats A$$ about the kids. I applaud all student athletes, one more kid in sports or extra-curricular activities is one less kid off the damn streets. I don’t care about your CIF Championships, your league rivalries, or your D1 players. If the kid doesn’t want to be there, then why force them to? The ones that want to be there are there. When you say that they should stick to their decisions, you are talking about a CHILD. Calling their parents BAD parents is pathetic. For whatever reasons they have, these parents are doing what they think is the best decision for THEIR kids, not yours. So, interpret the rule books however you like, base your decisions off of bitterness and revenge, but in the end you are only hurting that kid. REGARDLESS of what you try to justify to yourself. HOW DARE YOU, COWARDS!!!

        • pbah1

          easy there coach m…. cowards? Listen, I hear what you are saying and I can’t totally disagree with you. You think we should just go open season on transfers. I would be interested to see what would happen if we did. It might not be as crazy as people think. But I still think undue influence should be in play. But right now cif has their rule and parents need to pay attention to it.

  • Mike Edwards

    The problem, as I see it, is that the school getting left behind has to challenge it. CIF should review all transfers. Proof you moved? Ok, go on with life. DIdn’t move? Sit out a year. College players can’t move around. If you want to go to Upland or DB? Start their your Freshman year. It really isn’t that difficult.

  • Schumm

    Its a bad rule. Parents should be allowed to put their child in a given school for athetics. The same way they are allowed to move kids for band, drama or rotc. All of which happens more than people realize.

  • Valley Athletics

    In San Dimas case , I can see my self checking the box of knowing undue influences . There have been many post of the 7 on 7 team that all these upland transfers come from like jones, Peyton And helinsky to name a few . In this case there are other coaches that could eventually challenge the transfers and eventually it would come back to you when they start putting the pieces together . I wonder if this will change Any other coaches mind to challenge .

  • truth

    Fred (and Fatligian),

    You guys are so quick to cast judgment on WC it’s disgusting.

    1)WC DOES NOT accept transfers who contact them prior to enrolling. Ex. Ainsworth was going to go to WC before M called Covina to let them know. This kind of thing happens frequently.

    2)Hull played on 7on7 team with Broadus and Bell, had contact with DB coaches, and wore DB apparel to practice during the playoffs. told others he was transferring, and tried to get at least 2 other players to go with him. DURING THE PLAYOFFS!!! All because he was the best RB and QB on the team, and a run-first coach decided it was smarter to hand him the ball 80% of the time and to have him pass the ball 10% of the time than to have him hand it off to someone else

    3)Hornsby never attended South Hills. He never contacted WC. Had a choice when moving from 1.5 hours away, and chose WC. The ONLY reason SH didn’t want to release him was because he was a good fb player.

    You guys are trying to make a story. Period. You want to chastise coaches for looking down on players that want to leave after they have been worked FOR already, but all you and Aram are doing is EXPLOITING hs athletes to get hits on your blog.

    Who’s the f-ing hypocrite now?

    • Coach M

      That’s right, you guys have no Honor! I was only protecting the school.

      Coach M

    • FredJ

      If you read what I wrote on this thread, I specifically wrote, “I get both arguments, and speaking to sources from West Covina and San
      Dimas in recent months, these decisions weren’t made simply because
      school’s have an ax to grind, there were a series of events and things
      that went on that ultimately led to these decisions.”

      I’m aware of some of the things you allege and I don’t fault West Covina for what they’ve done. What I’ve stated is that if it were me, I would have let him go. For me personally, kids make mistakes and do stupid things, I get it. But I’m strongly opposed to a rule that makes them pay an incredible price for mistakes that have more to do with immaturity that could affect their future. Forcing kids to sit out not only affects their ability to earn a scholarship, particularly in football, but the possible effect it could have by taking sports away completely.

  • reality

    You say nobody wins in your headline? I beg to differ. The rule of law wins. The boys that stick it out win. The parents that teach their sons to stick it out wins. Loyalty wins.The losers are reporters like you that try to convince young players to try and beat the rules and leave your team behind because its good for you.and your career. How’s that looking for your advocacy of this Trib?

  • Schumm

    Player shows up wearing another teams gear is classless, however the transfer rule is still bad. Personally I would make him change or go home, but he still should have the right to leave.

    If a player declares he is moving and is trying to persuade others to follow that’s undue influence and those kids should be told that if they do move they are not going to be eligible. That’s a good rule.

    Most recruiting goes on by parents and youth coaches and its next to impossible to police. ML King has several coaches also coaching JR All American teams and somehow that’s allowed.

    Just wait till wrestling season and San Marino rolls out their new lineup. They have a kid coming from Oregon who won state and now wants to wrestle for the Titans. Why? Because a very wealthy booster wants to develop an elite level program. They have brought a former Olympian as a head coach, added several top level assistants, and created a club that supports wrestlers all the way from youth competition through international events. As a parent I should be allowed to send my son to SM as long as the district accepts than if it looks like he may not make varsity due to the high level of competition than I should be allowed to move him so he can make a varsity team somewhere.

  • Tech Support

    If I had proof the rules were broken I would indeed challenge it. I don’t even get why people are arguing about what the coaches did. I can see a debate over the rule itself but I don’t know why everybody is mad at WC and San Dimas. If no rules were broken the kids would be eligible.

    • oldfartcoach

      Tech Support
      If you cant see it, then you may need glasses. Because what one school does, is done at all schools. Don’t believe the holier than thou BS. This one was purely vindictive.

      • Tech Support

        And if other schools have PROOF (not speculation, not “well everybody knows..”) then they should challenge those players. In the case of Hull there is obviously an email that constitutes proof or else he’d be elligible. We had three basketball players transfer from the school I am at, we challenged only one because we had proof that rules were broken (lying about date withdrawn from school, following travel ball coach, etc.). The other two (and every other player who has ever transferred since I have been there) we granted releases (or didn’t challenge or whatever the proper CIF term is).

        • oldfartcoach

          The rule sucks because it punishes the athlete (a child), not whoever breaks the rule (an adult, a coach, a school, etc.). Every school takes transfers and like Fred and Aram have said countless times, pretty much 99.9% are for athletic purposes.

          • Tech Support

            I agree with a lot of what you say regarding the treatment of the players after they decide to leave. I even have no problem with looking at the rule itself (although in general I am much more anti-transfer than most anybody).

            But the hypothetical was asking about current rules and what I would do under them. I would challenge every one in which I had proof of a rule violation. Meaning I wouldn’t challenge a player I thought was leaving “probably for athletic reasons.” But I would challenge a player whose family sent me an email saying that was why.

            As for the hypocrit idea… I don’t know enough about the backgrounds of their transfers in the past to say anything (plus I have no loyalty/affiliation to any of the programs to care.). As it relates to the question asked of what I would do, I would accept any lawful (by the rules stated by CIF) transfer

          • Coach M

            I can appreciate that. We’ve had to deal with transfers up here, but Coach Layton always feels that decisions need to be made “in the best interest of the athlete.” The hypocritical ideals I’m talking about stem from Sydney Jones transferring out of here to West Covina. Everyone up here saw the UNDUE INFLUENCE and ATHLETIC MOTIVATION, but like I said Coach Layton felt that punishing Jones was not the way to go and served notice to Maggiore that he wouldn’t tolerate that kind of stuff again. As for the SD scenario, I can only feel bad for that kid because of his background story.

  • the realist

    I don’t understand why coaches try to prevent players from leaving. You can’t challenge transfers coach Z when you have athletes transferring to your school every year. I’m pretty sure you already “recruited” , I mean transfers moved into your area to play football.
    #BE FAIR!

  • Food 4 Thought

    Fred, what is CIF’s role and purpose in general? What are the setup to do? Are they setup to protect the student-athlete?

  • Lance R

    Most transfers are done by ways of tampering by coaches… either direct or indirect through one of their existing players that knows the potential transfer. Call it recruiting. This has been going on for years especially when one coach can snag a player he knows is talented and who’s team is not going to do well in the season. The picking is right there to lure someone to their school by knowing this new team has a chance to go deep into the playoffs or win a CIF Championship. Most are not loyal nowadays and want to play for a winner as it shines the spotlight more on them playing for a winner then a 2-8 1-9 -0-10 loser. Let them go and play where they want to build a powerhouse and live the HS dream of a champion. After it is all said and done most of these players do not even get to the next level and the ones that do good for them.

  • OuttaYourMindTrib

    If I were a Coach and I KNEW beyond a reasonable doubt that one of my players was transferring due to “undue influence” or the transfer was “athletically motivated” I would not sign off on the transfer. The consequences to my PROGRAM are too great. Likewise, if I knew an incoming player were unduly influenced I would reject the transfer as well. Not because I think I’m high and mighty or that I’m better than anyone else, I like to sleep at night with a clear conscience and when I see that form from CIF, I treat it like I do my taxes, it’s just better to not lie.

    So, when these kids and their families gamble with a transfer and loose, I kid of think to myself they had it coming. Harsh? Maybe, but they broke the rules. The fact that it’s a crazy, mostly unenforceable rule is beside the point. It’s a rule and if they don’t like it, don’t play sports. It’s pretty simple really.

    Now, why on earth Scoby is being allowed to play is beyond all comprehension. For CIF to crush Hull and Payton is kind of like the NCAA being so pissed off at Kentucky Basketball they go after Cal State Northridge and UC Riverside.

  • Coach Mike

    This is truly a sad situation for all parties. However I believe Jake was given some bad advise by a coach and or a trainer. Jake was already on the Radar at San Dimas and transferring to Upland really wasn’t going to raise his stock. Did the scouts really believe he was big enough for D1 or even D2? Wasn’t the issues really about Jake size and abilities to play at a higher comp level? Would he really get that much better at Upland or even start? Who knows, but trying to make a move in your Senior year is just not smart. Now, he facing a tougher road trying to get to the next level. Probably better to take the JC run and try and move on from there. JC football in California is pretty good and the cream always rises to the top. Good Luck!

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