UCLA teleconference with Howland on SI story Pt. 2

On living up to John Wooden’s name:
UCLA Head Coach Ben Howland: “I hold Coach in such high esteem. Anybody who knows me or who follows the program knows that – and I also said that nine years ago, when I arrived here, the very first thing out of my mouth at the initial press conference -was that there’ll never be another John Wooden, and I would never purport to ever be able to live up to him, to what he accomplished, and to who he was as a man and as a coach.
“Of course, I strive to follow his ideals, and to try to support that teaching with our players and in our program. I had a great relationship with Coach Wooden, and that’s one of the great blessings of my entire life, both as a coach and as a person for me and my family to get to know him. It was such an honor to be able to talk to him and to learn from him. I just feel so blessed to have had that opportunity. Some of the maxims of Coach – I keep this little book, which he has this little book called “Thoughts and Observations by John Wooden” as a devotional that I look at and read all the time. Be observant and learn from your mistakes and try to improve. And his thing, the number one thing, is always do your very best. And that’s I truly believe that I’ve tried to do and as has my staff, do our very best. And that’s something we’re always imploring for from our players, whether it be in the class room, on the basketball floor, or in their lives.”

On his lack of involvement outside of practice/games:
Howland: “If you talk to my former players, and that may be the opinion of a specific player. No one came forward and said that they said that. But if you talk to former players, my former players, whether they be here, UCLA, the University of Pittsburgh, Northern Arizona, an assistant at UCSB, I would think over the last 30 or 31 years, that actually would not be considered to be accurate. That’s hurtful. I feel like I’ve got a great relationship; one of the great joys of coaching, for me, has been and continues to be the relationships I have with so many of my former players, that I stay in close contact with them and their families, from all those years past. And to me, that’s one of the great joys, having those relationships and the love you have because of being involved in athletics, and the closeness that brings to teams and to relationships. So, yeah, to answer your question, I didn’t agree with it.”

On allegations of physical abuse by players to players and managers
Howland: “The instances you are talking about in the article had to do with hard fouls and cheap shots. Never was there any, during my watching and being there for every minute of every practice, an assault or that I felt it was prudent that there was some kind of assault going on. Often times in the heat of battle, elbows are flying or guys are being physical. And yes, a cheap shot is different than a closed fist punched in someone’s face. Or directed at someone. So there’s varying degrees of your question. Anything I felt was something that was serious in nature, obviously I would always bring it to Dan and to my superiors and I would deal with it first hand, whichever players were involved.”

On his job status:
Howland: I’ll tell you, I’ve been here, this is my ninth season now. I’m really really proud of what we’ve accomplished, both in terms of wins and losses, and just developing players and moving them forward from when they first come here as young players just out of high school to young men and adults as they leave the program. I feel very blessed, and I’ve said that, I said that the very first day I was here when I was speaking in the press conference, how lucky I feel and how blessed I am to be the coach of UCLA. It’s my dream job. It’s something I always dreamed of as a youngster and as a young coach, and I am appreciative of every day that I’m the coach here. At the end of every season, I sit with Dan, and have an end of the season evaluation where we talk about our strengths and weaknesses, what we need to get better at, what he felt was positive vs. what needs improvement. And we’ll do that again this year. But I am very confident of my abilities to lead this program in the future, and feel very good about, as I mentioned earlier, our current recruiting class, and also the kids that we’re involved with right now that are coming down to the final weeks of their recruiting process before they make a final decision.

On Reeves Nelson:
“I can’t get into specifics about any player, you know, in terms of the law. But I’ll tell you this, I’ve always been about my players, and doing everything I can, in my abilities, to help them. To help them as young men, to help them as basketball players, to help them improve. One of the biggest reasons I so coveted this job is because I think this institution, this program appeals to kids that are so special, that are so wonderful. We have an unbelievable support system for our players in reference to helping them off the floor. We’ve got an unbelievable counseling center. I know in the article, for example, there were assertions of drug and alcohol use. We have a great policy in place for our student athletes at UCLA that is educational but also punitive in terms of discipline. But my thing is, it’s incumbent on me as a coach, that once we have a player in our program, to do everything I can to help him realize his potential, to help him improve, and to help him overcome obstacles. And I have truly tried to do that with each and every one of my players.”

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  • ucla-of-the-rockies

    Solid interviewing, Jon.
    Wherever this thing goes, you are on the right track.
    Thanks for all your hard work in surely difficult times.

    Oh, and Jack & Coke works good sometimes.

  • The Puppy Who Lost His Way

    Now I realize what Neuheisel should have done to keep his job longer: wrap himself around the Red Sanders legend.

  • UCLA Dynasty

    It is truly a sad day when Coach Ben Howland has to respond to such yellow journalism. I bet if we dug hard enough we’d find SUC money behind the entire fabricated story.

  • 50-0

    UCLA Fantasy, why drag SC into this mess?

  • The Blur

    I’m still confused. There’s no story, just a bunch of quotes from “a former player.” I’m sure bruinsnation is all over this right now. I’m sure they’re blaming Howland for not being at raves on new years eves to discipline players.

    Howland deserves to be on the hot seat, but not for this story. I don’t need an SI article to know college athletes drink, smoke pot, and party on new years eve. Give me an effing break.


    Life long bruin here…just want to say how CBH is like CRN and should be fired…oh and how disgraced my school is and I am ashamed. I just wish we Bruins Could be more like the great, honest trojans. BTW this is my 15th anonymous comment today…I just can’t get enough…too much fun.

  • Anonymous

    Guys this story is awful. Guys coming to practice high is not ok. Guys running injured freshmen out of the school is not ok. Guys peeing on guys stuff and getting in numerous fist fights in front of the coach is not ok. I am just scratching the surface. Dan needs to go along with Howland. I am embarressed by my school.

  • CEO

    This entire story is a farce.

    I am a CEO, and I have a boat load of entitled lazy ex-employees that would throw me under the bus in a second.

    All they’d need is a Pulitzer prize winning author that is willing to write a hatchet job about me. Of course the entitled lazy druggies would not want to have their comments attributed to them so the author would have to keep names out of it.

    COWARDS! Shame on you SI.com

  • bibs

    This story is a wake up call for our athletic program.We need to look beyond winning and start dealing with character and responsibility.There needs to be more accountability in all of our programs.Everybody does it is the rant of losers.Good coverage Jon.

  • W.E.B. Dupree

    Guys this story is awful.
    Guys coming to practice high is not ok.
    Guys running injured freshmen out of the school is not ok.
    Guys peeing on
    guys stuff and getting in numerous fist fights in front of the coach is not ok.
    Guys I am just scratching the surface.
    Guys Dan needs to go along with Howland.
    Guys I am embarressed by my school,

  • Marc

    tydides playing tough guy once again. tydides, if you read this, know that I would like to have a face to face with you. You coming out to the Nebraska game in September? Oh, it’d be lovely; you really should stop by.

  • UCLASteve

    Gotta agree with “The Blur” above.

    When I first heard the rumors of the SI report coming out and the possible content, I feared the worst. After reading the article, honestly, don’t see the major blow the story was supposed to deliver. Yes, Howland deserves to be on the hot seat – for losing – not because of this story. Nothing in the article made me think this coach broke rules and really stretched the line. And yes, some of the acts of the former players were terrible – horrible even. But common, takes Reeves out of this story and… well really, is there a story left? A few player smoking pot and drinking – wow, crazy stuff for college kids and totally unpredictable. Seriously this story minus Reeves is nothing.

  • MichaelRyerson

    Still a Howland man here. The story was basically BS, meant to wound UCLA and pump up sales. Like the guy above says, take Reeves, who was apparently a jerk, out of the story and there’s no story. And I think it’s obvious enough to ask why Jon doesn’t call it that way too. I know he’s not a fan but really this story is crap.

  • Just Me

    I agree that if you take Reeves out the issues are much less concerning. But hey, if you take the guy who paid for all the Miami FB players to party out they don’t have much of an issue either. If what is in the article is true, and it seems so, since you don’t hear any specific denials, there was a troubling lack of discipline and cohesion and RN’s behavior led to several transfers, possibly the loss of a good asst coach, etc. It’s hard to tell about some of the items – maybe Reeves played hard in practice to get guys ready for games. But if he was maliciously injuring people on his own team and it went unchecked then that is a disaster on so many levels. No wonder Malcolm and Tyler decided to leave. Who wants to stay in a toxic environment?

    I agree I don’t think this is a big deal from an NCAA rules perspective. But, it seems consistent with everything we have seen in the program and explains a lot. It really seems like you need better people skills than Howland has to run this program. And I think that is someone that is hard to improve for someone who doesn’t have it by the time they run a major BB program.

  • Michael,
    You know what I think of you as a commenter, but I think you’re off base here. There is no grand conspiracy against UCLA. There is a grand conspiracy against ANY program that has fallen from where UCLA was to where UCLA is. If Duke missed two tourneys out of three and had mass player exodus, and the writer then uncovered some demons in the closet, the story would be written.

    To call it an EXPOSE was ridiculous by the SI staff and those who circulated the story without reading it. But there is a story here, and it was well written.

  • Anonymous

    “UCLA should actually be sighing in relief that one of SI’s best reporters could spend two months digging into a marquee team located in a glitzy city and come up with zero NCAA violations, zero academic fraud, zero wrongdoing other than the usual idiot college partying.”

  • areukiddingmebruins

    I’m Baffled
    Ben Howland deserves a second chance to be a great coach again, just not at UCLA. If only half of this article is true (and we know it’s at least that) Coach Howland should be shown the door prior to tonight’s game. I’m a season ticket holder and my son often times attends games with me (he’s 9 and in the 3rd grade). He knows that this is that last week of home games for the season and earlier this week he asked if he could go to the games this week, to which I replied “of course”. After yesterday’s revelations, as a dedicated father I feel compelled to keep him away from the arena this week. UCLA basketball used to be a program that stood for something, we we winners of course, but we won the right way. When Steve Lavin brought our program to (what we thought) was the lowest common denominator we ran him out of town. It wasn’t Lavin’s record that repulsed us so much, it was the fact the program itself didn’t live up to our standards at UCLA. Coach Howland has managed to do a masterful job at keeping the wool pulled over our eyes as ti the reality of his program. However now we and the entire nation are acutely aware that his lack of control as our head basketball coach has fallen to a much lower level than at any time during Steve Lavin’s despicable tenure. This season has been awful from the get go and yesterday it came to a head. I beg all the members of our Bruin community to demand the immediate removal of Coach Howland. We must start the process of healing our beloved yet shambled program so that one day I can bring my son to the games again.

  • 15-Year Season Ticket Holder

    Howland and UCLA ignored the legacy of Coach Wooden. They also ignored the Broken Windows Theory. Would Coach Wooden have thought the “little infractions” don’t matter?

    Three positive drug tests before you’re suspended? What would Coach Wooden say?

    I’m no fan of Coach K or Duke, but at least they know how to run things like adults. One positive test = possible suspension. Two positive tests = suspension for 50% of the season. Three positive tests = termination.


  • Anonymous

    My problems with Howland are mostly performance based, not all the extras that we’re reading about in SI. Everyone can agree/disagree as to why UCLA has stunk 2 out of the last 3 years. Bottom line is that he is not getting it done, and that is not disputable. Personally, I think he got way too much credit for his 3 Final 4s. That won’t ever happen again at UCLA, unless we start secretly paying recruits. He is an average recruiter for a place like UCLA, but lucked out with Westbrook and Mbah Moute. He got that far because he had a great combination of skilled/athletic players, period. As seen in the NBA. Farmar (solid NBA reserve), Afflalo (NBA starter), Love (NBA all-star), Westbrook (all-star), Collison (starter), Luc (starter/key reserve), and decent role players such as Shipp, Hollins (reserve), and Aboya. His defensive schemes were effective, but his inept offensive schemes were equally bad. I cringed to watch our half court offense, especially early on when he didn’t have a Collison or Love to bail him out. So, let’s call it how it really is. If you’re giving all the credit to Ben during the Final 4 days you have to be giving him the blame when they stink. And they’re horrible this year just like 2 years ago. Only an even more horrible conference makes them look better. It doesn’t go both ways. Either he is doing a poor job of recruiting or coaching, or both. You can’t have it both ways Howland apologists. Time to stop the excuses. And yes, the final 4 days are deep in the past. Time to look forward and get someone else that can get it done.

  • Deepteacher

    After some more time to think about the SI article, I considered what it would be like to be in Ben’s shoes. I have been a middle school science teacher for 20 years. I sometimes get classes that are just not good classes. I work even harder, but I just do not have the same level of success with the difficult classes. The next year comes and I get a new class. I am not stuck with the difficult class for years, and I do not have thousands of fans, reporters, bloggers, and message board commenters dissecting my every move. I have the opportunity to learn from my mistakes and become a better teacher for the experience. It seems that Ben made a mistake with the 2008 class. I think it is understandable that he would grab the highest rated players, because his success put UCLA in the position to get them. We know now that many of those highly rated players were fools gold. Ben was not equipped to deal with so much immaturity. Unlike in my classroom, Ben does not get to start over in a new year with all new kids. The second mistake was sticking with Nelson for so long. He is the main bad seed. I think Ben cares more about the kids than the story implies. My guess is that he really wanted to help Reeves, and as a result held on too long. Ben does not work in my classroom, and he gets paid much much more, so he has to win. I think that if we do not see improvement in character issues, and the scoreboard next year, then it will be clear that Ben has not learned from his mistakes. I think that he has not had the opportunity to show that yet.

  • Resource Guy

    OMG! College Basketball players smoke pot!? They drink alcohol!? Some have huge ego’s!? A college basketball coach who is under extreme pressure to win would overlook the transgressions of one of his best players!? The only school this happens at is UCLA of course. Every other basketball player in the country never drinks, smokes, or has an ego problem. No other coach in the nation would overlook his best player losing control at times to keep winning games.

    Reality – CBH missed on recruiting in the case of Gordon and Morgan from a character standpoint. If you think that these guys are living the pious life and are perfect teammates now you must be totally naive. I can also guarantee that Moser and Stanback aren’t sitting in their dorm rooms every night reading the Bible in old Sin City. Howland dropped Gordon who was by all accounts a cancer, good for Howland. He dropped Morgan who obviously had no self-control, good for Howland. He obviously kept Nelson too long, but maybe Howland had a glimmer of hope that Nelson could mature and become a decent student athlete. Shame on Howland for not giving up sooner, I guess. Josh Smith is having some self-control issues too, should we give up on him as well? J Anderson has obviously has some issues in the past but now is a team leader and seems to have righted his life. Good for Howland for not giving up on him. UCLA is not Southern Thug University. We are not USC, Cincinnati or Xavier. Sometimes the best isn’t good enough. Standards are high at UCLA and Howland needs to get back to recruiting the best people out of the group of best athletes.

    Having said all that, I think CBH needs to go. Not because of the story, but because we need a coach that can teach these kids to make wide open layups. I have never seen a team miss so many wide open layups. UCLA would have at least 4 more wins if they could make the open layups. Hell, they miss them in warm-ups.

  • UnwantedYetUndauntedGrammarPolice

    Very well put resource guy. I disagree with you about CBH going, but you are the only one here who has hit the nail on the head so far about your first two paragraphs. The people jumping on the bandwagon to be so damn shocked should pick their panties out of there ass and get on a court once in a while, or see what sports are about in college. Bringing up SC, imagine paying a player and pretending it is just one case when people with smarts know it wasn’t just reggie, then complaining about UCLA with 0 violations, 0 rapes, 0 academic fraud, but players had a drink or took e. And you octogenarians among us, oughtta think back to when you were 18-20ds and stop throwing stones, even if you were the prudes whose lips never touched wine.

  • UnwantedYetUndauntedGrammarPolice


  • MichaelRyerson

    Jon, you make my point exactly, to call this piece an EXPOSE’ is simply an attempt to sell magazines. Any thinking person who buys a copy of the magazine expecting an actual expose will be sorely disappointed. Not a single NCAA violation. And every program has the occasional mook like Reeves and virtually every program misses the tourney a couple of times over a rough patch, Duke being the exception that proves the rule. Coach K is easily the standard against which every other Div 1 program should be measured in the last twenty plus years. No one compares, so to trot out Coach K and Duke is maybe just the slightest bit off point. Coach Howland is a bit of a hardhead which serves him well most of the time but he’s had to make some (for him) painful adjustments. He deserves the chance to make them. Add to that the debacle of that one freshman class and it’s a gigantic hiccup. I don’t like, and mostly discount, the anonymous commentary, especially in the face of so many fomer players stepping up and saying it just ain’t so. Keep up the good work and I hope the personal business is working out for you all.

  • tim warren

    The big issue here is not that were no NCAA violations, or that college athletes party it up everywhere, or that there was no real expose in the SI story, or whether there’s a media conspiracy against UCLA. The big issue here is that both CRN and CBH have had real player discipline problems, it’s translated into poor performance on the field/court, and AD DG had/has been the boss for CRN and CBH the whole time.

  • MichaelRyerson

    @tim warren, yeah, yeah, the let’s-run-dan-guerrero-out-of-town-on-a-rail thing. anybody notice that while guerrero was doing such a bad job UCLA has continued to rack up NCAA championships at an unprecedented clip? and the credit for that goes where if not substantially to guerrero? for finding, promoting and nuturing the coaches and facilities that allows the university to continue to be uniquely successful. criticism for dorrell, neuheisel and to some degree howland? sure but let’s keep it real.

  • Anonymous

    Crn discipline issues? He kicked off the three amigos, while howland’s punishment for sticky fingers anderson was a slap on the wrist. Ucla thin at the guard position. Crn booted nelson quickly, howland kept the other nelson as long as possible. Nelson one of his best players and he was producing. When he stopped producing…Howland kept playing drago (starting too) though he was abusing his girlfriend. Crn also booted many others including morrell presley. See a pattern here? Don’t give me crap that howland is any different than most other shady basketball coaches. He’ll compromise for wins.

  • tim warren

    To MichaelRyerson – J D Morgan managed to be an AD who could (a) oversee stellar performances on the football field and basketball court almost every year of his reign,(b) also win bundles of NCAA championships in the other sports, and (c) not have continuous player discipline problems as is being experienced now. To anyone who might say “well it’s now a different era with bigger money and bigger egos and greater competition”, an earlier commenter made a good point that under similar circumstances, Duke has adult leadership, which is what J D provided as well.

    To Anonymous – I don’t know, after the fight during this year’s Arizona football game, which was on the heels of similar incidents in two prior u$c games, I don’t recall anyone lauding CRN for keeping his players in line.

  • Anonymous


    When 75,000 people show up to watch a women’s volleyball match or when students pack the streets of Westwood celebrating a gymnastics championship, I’ll lend more credence to your unwavering support of Dan Guerrero. He is the highest paid AD in the Pac 12, yet during his decade of leadership we have 0 Rose Bowl appearances, 0 National Basketball championships, eroding fan support in both revenue sports, and repeated embarrassments on and off the field/court. Never have we had a decade as bad in both sports that carry all others. That’s keeping it real.

  • areukiddingmebruins

    If Coach Howland is still on the bench at tonight’s game, I urge all of those who are in attendance and outraged at the disgrace of Coach Howland’s actions (or inactions) have brought to our beloved program to wear paper bags over our heads. We will always support our Bruins, but we must take a stand for the values that UCLA stands for (or once stood for).

  • Go back to BN

    Don’t copy and paste your BN drivel on this site, “kidding”/Nestor. Have some respect for Jon, and the other posters.

    Actually, what does it matter? You won’t be at the game, anyway.


  • MichaelRyerson

    you’re gonna run j. d. morgan out here and conveniently try to pass off the gutty little bruins of pepper rodgers as the halcyon days of UCLA football? hahaha, give me a break. usc handed us our heads every year back in the day. I was there. j. d. morgan for all his virtues (and he had many) also gave us sam gilbert fer cryin out loud. you can rewrite history all you want but my point about holding duke up as a comparison is that no one currently compares favorably to duke. that’s keeping it real. as for the ncaa championships won in non-revenue producing sports somehow not counting or not being important, I don’t notice any of you ‘real’ bruin fans hesitating to tout the 108 total championships and conveniently forgetting to mention the vast majority of those championships don’t really count because they were in those off broadway sports. funny.

  • tim warren

    Memo to DG: Even though no one compared to UCLA back in JD’s day, you’re off the hook, because “no one currently compares favorably to Duke”.

  • MichaelRyerson

    tim warren, if you don’t recognise a hack job when you see one, I can’t help you. j. d. morgan was a better ad than guerrero but stellar hardly describes the football team throughout his reign and as for basketball he had Wooden, ever hear of him. hardly fair to measure subsequent basketball coaches against ten national championships unless you’re willing to acknowledge no one will ever do it again. it becomes a silly comparison. we shot that course with Bartow, Cunningham, Brown, et al. same here, comparing guerrero with morgan, and although you’d like to make light of it, it is a different time. but even John Wooden, who I revere along with just about everyone else, couldn’t stop marques johnson (along with many others I’m sure) from doing a little pot or from having jabbar and walton eat barbeque up at sam gilbert’s place. there is nothing in this si article that is unique to howland’s program, not in particular nor in degree. the problems it describes are not rampant nor particularly surprising. so absent an ncaa violation or two, what the hell was the article about? selling magazines.

  • tim warren

    MichaelRyerson, I was also during there during JD’s time. As opposed to others in the thread, I was not shocked by the alcohol and drug usage that was mentioned. My only criticism(s) are in reference to the relationship of player coddling to the long term mediocrity of both the football and basketball teams, which includes the pre-DG years, which were only temporarily interrupted by the 3 Final Fours. And, when we’re mediocre, it’s not hidden, it’s over the top, like just this year, in football getting blown out by Arizona on national TV with their new interim coach or in basketball losing at home to Middle Tenn St by 20 points. There are numerous other such examples over the last 10 years. At least during JD’s reign, the football team had two Rose Bowl wins and regularly finished at least second in the conference, as opposed to today’s year-after-year, middle-of-the-pack tendency. With the talent base in SoCal and the athletic heritage that was unsurpassed once upon a time, this is inexcusable. If you are satisfied based on UCLA’s NCAA championships in the minor sports and because other schools are having their problems as well, then we just disagree, that’s all.

  • MichaelRyerson

    Who’s satisfied? I went back over my posting here and can’t find any reference to my being satisfied. My comments boil down to this (pay attention) the article was dreck and doesn’t deserve the notice of any serious person. Not a single ncaa violation and behavior by a few athletes that calls the integrity of the athletes themselves more into question than it does Howland and the ever-popular anonymous sources. It could have been written about ninety percent of div 1 schools. My complaint is that it seems to attract the let’s-jump-on-this-bandwagon crowd. If it could have been written about ninety percent of div 1 schools why was it written about UCLA? To sell magazines. By the way, during J.D. Morgan’s tenure as AD (sixteen years), the football team went to a grand total of four bowl games. And fully one third of the ncaa championships that happened on his watch were produced by Coach Wooden.

  • tim warren

    OK, now that’s just picking and choosing stats to try and “support” a position. For 12 of JD’s 16 years as AD, Pac 8 teams could only go to the Rose Bowl. Even in his last 4 years when Pac 8/10 could go to other bowl games, UCLA went to bowl games 3 of those 4 years.

  • MichaelRyerson

    Now who’s picking and choosing? They went to the Rose Bowl twice under Morgan, 1965 and 1975, they were not denied the Rose Bowl in ’66 nor ’76 because of the no-repeat rule (they didn’t win conference either year). They went to the Liberty Bowl in ’76 when they were second in conference and to the Fiesta in ’78 (Morgan’s last year as AD) again when they took second in conference. Four bowls, sixteen years. I’m not knocking Morgan nor the football program then, I’m just saying it was a different time. They didn’t have the xyz bowl-a-rama we have now and there was plenty of controversy as well (see the Morgan Rule prohibiting AD’s from sitting on the bench during basketball games, if you don’t believe me. Imagine the outrage if Guerrero got himself written up by the NCAA). anyway, nice talking to you.

  • tim warren

    I enjoyed the exchanges as well.

  • Anonymous

    Tim’s formidable against straw men, but not against an opponent like Michael.

  • The Blur

    Hey Marc,

    Could Tydides bring his keyboard to that face to face meeting? He’s much tougher when he’s sitting behind it, you know.

  • tim warren

    Being “Anonymous” is not formidable.

  • Anonymous

    Neither is being “tim warren.”

  • tim warren


  • Anonymous

    The haters at BN do more harm for the UCLA program than Ben Howland ever thought about doing.

    “Man for this story to try and say it was on [Ben Howland] is beyond crazy,” tweeted Mike Roll, a UCLA guard from 2005 to 2010. “Coaches can’t control how people act while they’re in their dorm …or at parties after games. He supplied us with the work ethic and leadership needed to get the job done. [Because] some players didn’t want to do what was necessary to win, can’t blame him. He will find the players that are willing to do so.”

  • Anonymous

    And that’s another diversion, “tim warren.”

  • Anonymous

    Wow, “tim warren” got his hat handed to him.